beginner lead

[css]

I recently started learning swing from a club at college but they're only teaching moves and not technique.


Does anyone have ideas on how to learn to lead without an instructor?
Is this even the right question?

[Chris Stratton]

You might want to split things into two parts to practice at different times:

1) drilling your own body actions so that you don't have to think about them all the time

2) thinking only about what the girl is doing and how she would get from what she's doing now to what you'd like to lead next

Eventually you'll be able to do both things automatically and let your attention shift back and forth...

[chachachacat]

I don't know how one can learn to lead without private lessons. You're right, group classes are not the way to learn leading, following or much technique. There are many benefits to groups, but private lessons are the fastest, least frustrating way to learn dancing.

[huey]

I recently started learning swing from a club at college but they're only teaching moves and not technique.

Does anyone have ideas on how to learn to lead without an instructor?
Is this even the right question?

Finding a teacher who will teach you how to lead (whether from private lessons or groups lessons) will be useful.

You could also try the following -

1. Talk to leaders you admire and ask their advice.

2. Find a dance friend and work on things together. Experiment leading and following.

Here's a useful link all about lead and follow -
http://www.eijkhout.net/lead_follow/

[macha]

I don't know how one can learn to lead without private lessons. You're right, group classes are not the way to learn leading, following or much technique. There are many benefits to groups, but private lessons are the fastest, least frustrating way to learn dancing.

You know, 4c, that really hits home, and I'm glad I heard it from someone else besides everyone inside my head.

I know my beloved beau is trying very hard to learn to lead- just as hard as I'm trying to learn to follow- especially in swing and salsa, but sometimes- ok, USUALLY, it doesn't "click" right off. He doesn't know how to lead me to do what he wants, and I don't know how to follow the cues he gives me- it's like Stevie Wonder and Helen Keller dancing.

I don't want to NOT take groups- we learn new things there, and it's a lot of fun- BUT, it's good to hear someone re-affirm the need for privates to polish up and fix what you learned in group.

Would you also suggest that we take individual private lessons and THEN private lessons TOGETHER? That's another of my theories...

[luh]

I don't know how one can learn to lead without private lessons. You're right, group classes are not the way to learn leading, following or much technique. There are many benefits to groups, but private lessons are the fastest, least frustrating way to learn dancing.

i totally disagree. someone can learn very well from group lessons how to lead! i can disprove you anytime - wanna dance ? ;)
luh

[luh]

I recently started learning swing from a club at college but they're only teaching moves and not technique.


Does anyone have ideas on how to learn to lead without an instructor?
Is this even the right question?

hey css, welcome to df!
Cool that you started. I know the problem, i had completely the same - just that i never really considered leading until i came to a different teacher ;)

Things you might wanna get an idea about:

frame - search for it here on df, and you'll find a very nice thread of d_nice !
counter balance - already advanced - but very interesting

what you always have to keep it in mind is, that the follower won't do anything differently until you move her. (maybe some beginner followers won't get that - but that is the theory and good followers will do that)

a typical mistake that happens to beginner followers in the swingout is, that they'll go forwards on 5. But as leader, you really have to stop her, going into the direction and give her the lead in the forward direction. Normally, she'd go backwards, because she still has the move into that direction. focus on moving out of the center. Keep your shoulders parallel to your feet. Build up some tention between your partner and yourself. (both highlighted stuff are things to get informed about). Tention is neccessary, because it's the only way a follower will notice your leads. Also get informed about connection - you don't have to be connected by your hands, but maybe also shoulderblade of follower to right hand...
get an idea? hope it helped. if you have any further question - feel free to ask :D
luh

[luh]

just got some things i found at wikibooks - haven't read it till now - but maybe it'll help!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frame_%28dance%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connection_%28dance%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Partner_dance_technique


have fun reading

also very good thing to do is, to get some video clips. good lindy dancers often have some on there websites, like kevin and carla.
there is a thread containing plenty of links to websites with swing dance clips! also how2dance has some instructional videos. (i'm not sure if they are still without sound), and of course, there is a HUGE collection of swing clips at ftp://poy.no - where there is also a wiki with favorite clips and stuff you might wanna check out first, because i think it's something like 30 GB of swing clips. (my favorites on that server are those from barswingona - but that might be just a personal preference - they are not instructional)
when you watch non-instructional movies, keep thinking about technique. (why does the girl go there - was it leadable?). There are some choreographies, where it's obvious that it isn't leadable - don't do those moves if you are a beginner.
A very good dancer, who fascinates me most atm, considering technique is Andrew Sutton. Get some vids of him!

Often favorite lindy hoppers travel and give workshops. go to them - they help!

luh

[Sagitta]

I don't know how one can learn to lead without private lessons. You're right, group classes are not the way to learn leading, following or much technique. There are many benefits to groups, but private lessons are the fastest, least frustrating way to learn dancing. I learnt to lead in group lessons, as have done many that I know.

[luh]

I don't know how one can learn to lead without private lessons. You're right, group classes are not the way to learn leading, following or much technique. There are many benefits to groups, but private lessons are the fastest, least frustrating way to learn dancing. I learnt to lead in group lessons, as have done many that I know.
same with me
luh

[huey]

I don't know how one can learn to lead without private lessons. You're right, group classes are not the way to learn leading, following or much technique. There are many benefits to groups, but private lessons are the fastest, least frustrating way to learn dancing. I learnt to lead in group lessons, as have done many that I know.
same with me
luh
Me too :wink:

But I think chachacha has a point. Private lessons are probably a useful shortcut. I have never had one (although am thinking of doing so soon). But the most useful group lessons I have had in terms of technique are those that allow time for individual feedback from teachers and fellow students. The classes I have had like this were more like workshops than classes. The teachers in these workshop classes come around and spend several minutes dancing with me and watching me dance. Other students provide useful positive help.

Many group classes concentrate on the 'what', not the 'how'. They just don't have time to show each individual how to execute a move. And I don't think they spend enough time on technique. Group classes can be great fun though, and give you an opportunity to practice your ability to connect with lots of different dancers. I also love doing jazz routines, and these are best done in groups.

[heartgrl2k]

Another good thing about group lessons and social dancing is that you really get to see if you're a good lead or not because every follow is different - different connection, weight, tension, reflexes, etc. You have to be able to adapt to them. Some follows need a stronger lead than others, some are able to immediately respond to the slightest lead. If you're taking privates and only dancing with a teacher, or even social dancing with the same person (and I think this is ESPECIALLY true for swing dances) I doubt how much true leading you're going to learn.

In any case, you need to be perceptive about if the follow is 'getting' your lead or not, and don't be afraid to ask her what felt good or bad about the lead. A lot of people aren't going to offer their opinions unless you ask them.

[css]

Thanks for all the replies and the links, I'm still reading through them and so far they seem to help answer a lot of my questions but I still have a few.

That first link http://www.eijkhout.net/lead_follow/ mentioned leading with the body instead of the arms. I'm not sure on the difference. In east coast you are only connected to your partner by your hands (at least in the moves I've learned).

[wcsjon]

Thanks for all the replies and the links, I'm still reading through them and so far they seem to help answer a lot of my questions but I still have a few.

That first link http://www.eijkhout.net/lead_follow/ mentioned leading with the body instead of the arms. I'm not sure on the difference. In east coast you are only connected to your partner by your hands (at least in the moves I've learned).

What they are referring to there is once you have your frame, your arms are pretty much set, and when you move with your body (take a step etc.) that moves your arm along with your body and that creates the lead. You don't want to use the muscles in your arms to do the leading. It's really hard to explain in writing, lol.

Good luck!

[Flat Shoes]

Thanks for all the replies and the links, I'm still reading through them and so far they seem to help answer a lot of my questions but I still have a few.

That first link http://www.eijkhout.net/lead_follow/ mentioned leading with the body instead of the arms. I'm not sure on the difference. In east coast you are only connected to your partner by your hands (at least in the moves I've learned).

Yeah, it can be a confusing concept, because you do use your arms a lot while leading. But the point is, when dancing you have two bodies dancing together, connected through the arms. You have one body leading the other body, transmitting this information through the link that is the arms. (But also through visual cues etc.)

What it translates to in practice is that the leader should move both the body and the arm while leading. The body should not be static while the arm is moving. Just like the follow should let her body be moved, and not just her arm, when being led.

So what you need is a good frame that can convey the movement from the leaders body to the followers body. in swing dancing, this means tension, but not rigidity. Also a conecpt that can be hard to grasp while being a beginner. It means that while there is tension, there's also flexibility. So there is constant dynamics going on.

So the arms may move all over the place, the amount of strength used in the tension constantly adjusts, but it never goes totally away. And the reason it never goes aways is so that there's always a connection between the bodies, so that leading and following can be done between the two connected bodies.

Even more confused now? :shock:

[fascination]

I don't want to NOT take groups- we learn new things there, and it's a lot of fun- BUT, it's good to hear someone re-affirm the need for privates to polish up and fix what you learned in group.

Would you also suggest that we take individual private lessons and THEN private lessons TOGETHER? That's another of my theories...I would...its more costly but you each get individual attention and you both learn how it should feel more quickly, plus theres the "not taking your frustration out on your SO factor" that I think is well worth the money

[Dancelf]

That first link http://www.eijkhout.net/lead_follow/ mentioned leading with the body instead of the arms. I'm not sure on the difference.

Try this experiment: find a secure anchorage - a doorknob will do, if you are sure the door will stay put. Or a pole, doorframe, fire escape - something that is going to move less than you will if you pull on it.

Grab the doorknob with your hand, with your body at a comfortable distance - your arm should be straight, but relaxed.

Now pull on the doorknob, by holding your ground and contracting your bicep. That's an arm lead. Relax to your original position.

Now lean your body away from the doorknob (more precisely, use your legs to push your torso further away from the doorknob, without moving your feet. Ideally, your shoulders should be directly over your hips, but your hips are no longer directly over your feet). That's a body lead.

In both cases you are increasing the tension between your body and the doorknob. With the arm lead, you are creating the tension by shortening the arm. With the body lead, you are creating the tension by increasing the distance bridged by the arm.

Saying the same thing slightly differently, the body lead creates the tension by moving the shoulder away from the doorknob, rather than by shortening the arm.

Second experiment: find something you can lean against - a closed door works fine here. Put your palm on the door, with your arm bent at a comfortable angle.

Press against the door by contracting your tricep (ie - push). That's an arm lead. Relax to your original position.

Now, paying careful attention to holding the angle of your elbow still, lean against the door. That's a body lead.

Aside from the physiology, there are two differences that leap immediately to mind. First is that the body lead is more comfortable to follow. Second is that using the body to lead allows the arms to be more consistantly relaxed, allowing faster, cleaner arm movement.

I'm no longer sure how important this latter point is in ECS and Lindy, but you get a lot of mileage out of it in WCS and hustle, with all the wraps, folds, headloops and so forth.

Disclaimer: I'm a westie - lindy hoppers should take all of this with a wife of salt.

[luh]

That first link http://www.eijkhout.net/lead_follow/ mentioned leading with the body instead of the arms. I'm not sure on the difference.

meaning, they want nothing that would throw the follow off-balance. It's coming over again. Flat shoes has a lot of stuff i already wrote. tension, frame, center,.... you really have to know those things (and _do_ them while dancing) - don't be scared, it takes longer than the basic of ECS. (so don't be scard if it'll take you some time. I hope you searched for frame in this forum, there are also some exercises written in there.

Your arms should never be disconnected from your body. it's a lot of things that play together, which really takes some time to learn! So don't be confused, but maybe find a swing dancer, who knows those terms we used, and ask him/her to teach you.

You should really read the stuff we write! It's good stuff what people write in here! (compliment to all the others - i really enjoy this thread - it's not drifting away from it's subject!)

you'll find it maybe hard to get the tension at ecs. But you should definetly have tension when going back on count 5! . The follower should go back, because you show her to, (a little pressure, just enough - not throwing her offbalance!!), and she should come towards you because you are slightly pulling (actually it's jsut having tension in the right direction). Pulling/pushing are the wrong words for this - tension the right one.

I really compliment you if you understand all said here. It would sound pretty cryptic to me! I learned all this in lessons - and you should get someone as well. group lessons are fine, - but sometimes college swing clubs have not the best teachers!
keep dancing!
luh

[wcsjon]

That first link http://www.eijkhout.net/lead_follow/ mentioned leading with the body instead of the arms. I'm not sure on the difference.

Try this experiment: find a secure anchorage - a doorknob will do, if you are sure the door will stay put. Or a pole, doorframe, fire escape - something that is going to move less than you will if you pull on it.

Grab the doorknob with your hand, with your body at a comfortable distance - your arm should be straight, but relaxed.

Now pull on the doorknob, by holding your ground and contracting your bicep. That's an arm lead. Relax to your original position.

Now lean your body away from the doorknob (more precisely, use your legs to push your torso further away from the doorknob, without moving your feet. Ideally, your shoulders should be directly over your hips, but your hips are no longer directly over your feet). That's a body lead.

In both cases you are increasing the tension between your body and the doorknob. With the arm lead, you are creating the tension by shortening the arm. With the body lead, you are creating the tension by increasing the distance bridged by the arm.

Saying the same thing slightly differently, the body lead creates the tension by moving the shoulder away from the doorknob, rather than by shortening the arm.


I don't want to confuse anyone here, or be hard to get along with, just want to point something out.
If you move the shoulder away, without stepping, that's not a full body lead. This is the way it has been taught in the past and MANY people have learned this way, just to get to relearn down the road.
If you just pull the shoulder back, you are using your lats (muscles) to lead, the lead (in WCS, as well as MOST, not all, but most dances) should come from the movement created by your feet.
So, with that being said, go up to the door, UNlatch the door, stand on the side where it will open towards you. Take the door knob in your left hand, and take one step away from the door, with your arm in a fixed position to your body. The door should have moved at the same rate as your whold body, not faster, not slower. Now step back into the door, the door should close at the same rate as you moved towards the door. This is a full body lead, it starts with a step, keeping your body centered over the foot you are stepping onto (as you should take full weight onto that foot as you step in ECS, WCS, lindy but not in dances such as waltz). A full body lead gives you more control, and the follower more feel of what you are doing because you are connected all the way to the point that movement starts. This way, your foot movement can/will set the size of you and your partner's steps as well as the speed/energy.
Hope that helped and didn't confuse/offend anyone!

[chandra]

That first link http://www.eijkhout.net/lead_follow/ mentioned leading with the body instead of the arms. I'm not sure on the difference.

Try this experiment: find a secure anchorage - a doorknob will do, if you are sure the door will stay put. Or a pole, doorframe, fire escape - something that is going to move less than you will if you pull on it.

Grab the doorknob with your hand, with your body at a comfortable distance - your arm should be straight, but relaxed.

Now pull on the doorknob, by holding your ground and contracting your bicep. That's an arm lead. Relax to your original position.

Now lean your body away from the doorknob (more precisely, use your legs to push your torso further away from the doorknob, without moving your feet. Ideally, your shoulders should be directly over your hips, but your hips are no longer directly over your feet). That's a body lead.

In both cases you are increasing the tension between your body and the doorknob. With the arm lead, you are creating the tension by shortening the arm. With the body lead, you are creating the tension by increasing the distance bridged by the arm.

Saying the same thing slightly differently, the body lead creates the tension by moving the shoulder away from the doorknob, rather than by shortening the arm.


I don't want to confuse anyone here, or be hard to get along with, just want to point something out.
If you move the shoulder away, without stepping, that's not a full body lead. This is the way it has been taught in the past and MANY people have learned this way, just to get to relearn down the road.
If you just pull the shoulder back, you are using your lats (muscles) to lead, the lead (in WCS, as well as MOST, not all, but most dances) should come from the movement created by your feet.
So, with that being said, go up to the door, UNlatch the door, stand on the side where it will open towards you. Take the door knob in your left hand, and take one step away from the door, with your arm in a fixed position to your body. The door should have moved at the same rate as your whold body, not faster, not slower. Now step back into the door, the door should close at the same rate as you moved towards the door. This is a full body lead, it starts with a step, keeping your body centered over the foot you are stepping onto (as you should take full weight onto that foot as you step in ECS, WCS, lindy but not in dances such as waltz). A full body lead gives you more control, and the follower more feel of what you are doing because you are connected all the way to the point that movement starts. This way, your foot movement can/will set the size of you and your partner's steps as well as the speed/energy.
Hope that helped and didn't confuse/offend anyone!

Isnt it center more than feet? But center goes as feetgo... Cause your center moves before your feet... (I guess thats a point of contention... and maybe more for follows?)

errmm... yah...Never mind.

[wcsjon]

The way I've heard taught latest, by Robert Royston, Kyle Redd and a few others, is the step moves the center.
Think of it this way, the "center" is a theory, you can't find center in any medical book about muscles or anything. Center as we refer to it, is our center of ballance. As a lead, you center can't change on the first count of any pattern, untill a step is being taken. Why? well, because if you stand still, and you are in an upright position, and then change your center without moving your feet, you will fall. Control is the key to movement, weither it be dance or any other movement.
As a follow, as you said, IS a bit different. Because as a follow you are actually reacting to your lead's movement. As a couple, your center changes when he moves.......thus pulling you off of your center (this is getting deep, lol) causing you to react (in this case, step) to maintain/regain your center.

I give credit to Robert and Kyle for this explination, as this is how they explained it in a question answer session at Bill Robinson's swing event in Atlanta a few months ago.

For a lead, moving before the step, or anticipating the step is a bad habbit, and I'm struggling with that one. I didn't even realize I was doing it untill Laureen pointed it out to me at Bill's event. If any of you ever get a chance, take lessons from her, she's a great person and easy to work with..........as well as Robert, Kyle, Ronnie, etc etc etc.

[css]

I think I get it. The lead involves the arms but comes from the entire body. So you have to move with the lead you're doing. Thanks again to everyone for helping.

[Dancelf]

if you stand still, and you are in an upright position, and then change your center without moving your feet, you will fall.

Two words: "advanced footwork".

But the general idea has been communicated, and there's no need to get micro....

[luh]

That first link http://www.eijkhout.net/lead_follow/ mentioned leading with the body instead of the arms. I'm not sure on the difference.

Try this experiment: find a secure anchorage - a doorknob will do, if you are sure the door will stay put. Or a pole, doorframe, fire escape - something that is going to move less than you will if you pull on it.

Grab the doorknob with your hand, with your body at a comfortable distance - your arm should be straight, but relaxed.

Now pull on the doorknob, by holding your ground and contracting your bicep. That's an arm lead. Relax to your original position.

Now lean your body away from the doorknob (more precisely, use your legs to push your torso further away from the doorknob, without moving your feet. Ideally, your shoulders should be directly over your hips, but your hips are no longer directly over your feet). That's a body lead.

In both cases you are increasing the tension between your body and the doorknob. With the arm lead, you are creating the tension by shortening the arm. With the body lead, you are creating the tension by increasing the distance bridged by the arm.

Saying the same thing slightly differently, the body lead creates the tension by moving the shoulder away from the doorknob, rather than by shortening the arm.


I don't want to confuse anyone here, or be hard to get along with, just want to point something out.
If you move the shoulder away, without stepping, that's not a full body lead. This is the way it has been taught in the past and MANY people have learned this way, just to get to relearn down the road.
If you just pull the shoulder back, you are using your lats (muscles) to lead, the lead (in WCS, as well as MOST, not all, but most dances) should come from the movement created by your feet.
So, with that being said, go up to the door, UNlatch the door, stand on the side where it will open towards you. Take the door knob in your left hand, and take one step away from the door, with your arm in a fixed position to your body. The door should have moved at the same rate as your whold body, not faster, not slower. Now step back into the door, the door should close at the same rate as you moved towards the door. This is a full body lead, it starts with a step, keeping your body centered over the foot you are stepping onto (as you should take full weight onto that foot as you step in ECS, WCS, lindy but not in dances such as waltz). A full body lead gives you more control, and the follower more feel of what you are doing because you are connected all the way to the point that movement starts. This way, your foot movement can/will set the size of you and your partner's steps as well as the speed/energy.
Hope that helped and didn't confuse/offend anyone!

Isnt it center more than feet? But center goes as feetgo... Cause your center moves before your feet... (I guess thats a point of contention... and maybe more for follows?)

errmm... yah...Never mind.

yeppers, that's right. If you wouldn't have written this i would have :)

Your feet move because your center moves. @wcsjon - there is no medical center. though the center in dancing is quite clear what it is, and where it is located. The center is pretty much the lower part of the belly.
luh
p.s. @chandra again: it's the same for leads - we also have to move out of the center.

[chandra]

That first link http://www.eijkhout.net/lead_follow/ mentioned leading with the body instead of the arms. I'm not sure on the difference.

Try this experiment: find a secure anchorage - a doorknob will do, if you are sure the door will stay put. Or a pole, doorframe, fire escape - something that is going to move less than you will if you pull on it.

Grab the doorknob with your hand, with your body at a comfortable distance - your arm should be straight, but relaxed.

Now pull on the doorknob, by holding your ground and contracting your bicep. That's an arm lead. Relax to your original position.

Now lean your body away from the doorknob (more precisely, use your legs to push your torso further away from the doorknob, without moving your feet. Ideally, your shoulders should be directly over your hips, but your hips are no longer directly over your feet). That's a body lead.

In both cases you are increasing the tension between your body and the doorknob. With the arm lead, you are creating the tension by shortening the arm. With the body lead, you are creating the tension by increasing the distance bridged by the arm.

Saying the same thing slightly differently, the body lead creates the tension by moving the shoulder away from the doorknob, rather than by shortening the arm.


I don't want to confuse anyone here, or be hard to get along with, just want to point something out.
If you move the shoulder away, without stepping, that's not a full body lead. This is the way it has been taught in the past and MANY people have learned this way, just to get to relearn down the road.
If you just pull the shoulder back, you are using your lats (muscles) to lead, the lead (in WCS, as well as MOST, not all, but most dances) should come from the movement created by your feet.
So, with that being said, go up to the door, UNlatch the door, stand on the side where it will open towards you. Take the door knob in your left hand, and take one step away from the door, with your arm in a fixed position to your body. The door should have moved at the same rate as your whold body, not faster, not slower. Now step back into the door, the door should close at the same rate as you moved towards the door. This is a full body lead, it starts with a step, keeping your body centered over the foot you are stepping onto (as you should take full weight onto that foot as you step in ECS, WCS, lindy but not in dances such as waltz). A full body lead gives you more control, and the follower more feel of what you are doing because you are connected all the way to the point that movement starts. This way, your foot movement can/will set the size of you and your partner's steps as well as the speed/energy.
Hope that helped and didn't confuse/offend anyone!

Isnt it center more than feet? But center goes as feetgo... Cause your center moves before your feet... (I guess thats a point of contention... and maybe more for follows?)

errmm... yah...Never mind.

yeppers, that's right. If you wouldn't have written this i would have :)

Your feet move because your center moves. @wcsjon - there is no medical center. though the center in dancing is quite clear what it is, and where it is located. The center is pretty much the lower part of the belly.
luh
p.s. @chandra again: it's the same for leads - we also have to move out of the center.

ermm... Your center of gravity changes with each person. It is absolutely possibly to have it in your chest. (generally lower stomach though I guess, just wanted to say it wasnt written in stone)

*Disclamer*
Im going to be really obnoxious and point picky. This has less than nothing to do with dancing. */disclaimer*

You CAN actually move your center before your feet. Stand up and try it. Thats probably not what you do when your dancing.

[luh]

sure you can have your center somewhere else - it's just probably themost common place to be. but you are right.

normally, you move your center before feet :)
luh

[fenixx]

I know I am a latin dancer getting in the middle of many swing dancers, but I am going to talk a bit about connection. If I take a step without my body initiating the step (forget about with a partner, a simple forward walk will do) my leg will swing out but I will go no where. If I let my body lead (taking me to a tipping point) then my leg will react and I will take a step. This is how we walk down the street. This can be extended to show that all movement from foot to foot must start with a body lead. But what about between steps? Between a step, the pressure of one foot, the back foot, takes you forward to the front foot (the foot you just placed due to the body lead).

So what does this have to do with a discussion about leading? Well, my previous paragraph talks about the body leading or starting all movement and footwork continuing the movement. Thus, if I want to initiate someone else's movement I too must use my body to initiate the movement in their body so we may both step. Thus the body, which is really a change of weight is the "leader" and not the step. This is so because there are figures that require a lead but do not require a step. For example, if I want the lady walk into me, change direction and keep walking I simply lead her 3 movements with only 1 step. The reason I can do this is not my arm or my steps, but because of my body. I change my weight three times, which initiates body action 3 times, which cause her to make 3 distinct actions.

Thus, do not think of you arm because your arm does not command your weight. Also, your step is not really the reason for the lead because it is your body movement that is causing it. The fact that the body movement initiates a step for the leader as well does not mean the step is doing the leading.

I hope this helps

[Flat Shoes]

Lots of info here. My guess is that most beginners will be very confused by now. :shock:

Moving and leading is done from the body. Not from feet or arms. That I agree to 100%, and it's important to know. Arms and legs play second roles when it comes to dancing.

But that does not mean they are not important parts of moving and leading, because they are. They still have a lot to do in supporting the movements and the leads. You should lead using your body, yes. But the arms are very much part of the lead. You should move using your body, yes, but the legs are very much part of that movement.

Leading and following involves the whole body, and includes arms and legs. The body is the center and the most important, but legs and arms are important too.

[Benjamin]

Hello everyone,
I am very new here so forgive my possible ignorance :) .
I would just like to say that all this info has been really helpful for me. I am 7 months into west coast swing and right now I feel like I am swaying between too much connection(Pretty much my arm stays by my body and I don't have any elasticity) and not enough connection to the point my hand feels like a dead fish . :roll:

Again, I just wanted to state my appreciation for this thread and hopefully I can contribute to this forum later on when I get a little better :)

[luh]

Hello everyone,
I am very new here so forgive my possible ignorance :) .
I would just like to say that all this info has been really helpful for me. I am 7 months into west coast swing and right now I feel like I am swaying between too much connection(Pretty much my arm stays by my body and I don't have any elasticity) and not enough connection to the point my hand feels like a dead fish . :roll:

Again, I just wanted to state my appreciation for this thread and hopefully I can contribute to this forum later on when I get a little better :)

glad it helped - that's what it's for ;)
luh

[Alias]

Stand in front of the door holding the key which is in the door lock, and then turn the key to unlock the door, there isn't any needed body movement involved or change of center of balance (and as long as you practice body isolation you can do crazy things with your legs or your body without moving your hand and interfere with the process of turning the key), this is just done with an in place rotation of your wrist or even with a movement of your fingers without even moving your wrist.

This is an analogy for spinning a follower for example, then leading doesn't compulsorily involve your body.
There is a vast field of possible techniques, let's be imaginative and open minded.

[luh]

Stand in front of the door holding the key which is in the door lock, and then turn the key to unlock the door, there isn't any needed body movement involved or change of center of balance (and as long as you practice body isolation you can do crazy things with your legs or your body without moving your hand and interfere with the process of turning the key), this is just done with an in place rotation of your wrist or even with a movement of your fingers without even moving your wrist.

This is an analogy for spinning a follower for example, then leading doesn't compulsorily involve your body.
There is a vast field of possible techniques, let's be imaginative and open minded.

yeah - but spinning is probably considered advanced stuff. (at least plenty of spins). - but for most of the leading, you'll need your center, and connection, as well as tension in the arms and a good frame. - and as far as i got it - the topic is "beginner lead"
luh

[Flat Shoes]

Hello everyone,
I am very new here so forgive my possible ignorance :) .
I would just like to say that all this info has been really helpful for me. I am 7 months into west coast swing and right now I feel like I am swaying between too much connection(Pretty much my arm stays by my body and I don't have any elasticity) and not enough connection to the point my hand feels like a dead fish . :roll:

Again, I just wanted to state my appreciation for this thread and hopefully I can contribute to this forum later on when I get a little better :)
Don't confuse rigidity with connection. The connection is dynamic, sometimes you use more strength, sometimes you use less. And even when you use a lot of strength, you should still not be rigid. And even when you use very little strength, there should always be a connection.

The difference between having a rigid connection and not comes from how you use your antaonistic muscles. For example, try puling at something. You can pull at it, using only the muscles that pull. Or you can make your arm stiff by activating more of the muscles in your arm at the same time, and sort of locking it in place. You should almost always to the former, and almost never do the latter, when dancing. This makes a dynamic, non-stiff connection, even if you happen to use a lot of strength during some pattern.

[chandra]

There is one point I feel has been neglected.

Weve talked about body leads, and what that means. If it comes first from your foot or your center. Ive been told both by pros, and Im sure either works. (to some extent they are not seperate of on another just different ways of saying the same thing)

One point that Kyle made is an interesting and good point (erm, did I say one?)

He commented that dancers these days had an over obsession with body leads. In actuallity, you do have to use your arm, the momentum is, however, iniated by your body.

I think a more important point (for ease of following for me) for "arm leaders" is if they lead with their arm outside of their body. Out of control, out of where our wieght could be plausibly transfered in one step.


Keep in mind Im just a silly little novice girl dancer. THis is all just opinion and collaboration, not fact.

[luh]

He commented that dancers these days had an over obsession with body leads. In actuallity, you do have to use your arm, the momentum is, however, iniated by your body.


i thought that we had skipped momentum because this was too basic.
luh

[chandra]

*shrug* replace momentum with motion. The concept still works.

[luh]

*shrug* replace momentum with motion. The concept still works.

hey - why aren't you online atm?
luh

[chandra]

Im at school

[luh]

Im at school

that is NO excuse ! ;)
luh

[chandra]

I dont AIM at school...

MSN, but not AIM

[luh]

I dont AIM at school...

MSN, but not AIM

good to know - i'll sign in into msn in the future as well
luh

[DWise1]

Just to emphasize the importance of the lead:

Last Saturday I was at a country dance. A Cowboy Waltz came on and, even though though I hadn't done it in years and didn't remember a thing, I let myself get dragged out on to the floor -- but I did warn her. All I could do was the basic and to lead her into a right turn (after a quick mental calculation of which foot she needed to be on to pull it off -- and I did guess it right). She seemed pleased overall.

Later that night, when another waltz came on she was recommending me highly to her friends. When I protested that I only knew the basic and one move, she retorted: "He can lead. He stays in time with the music. And he knows when to turn you." and looked at them like, "What more could we ask for?"

OK, guys, now we know what's important. Let's get to work!

[luh]

Just to emphasize the importance of the lead:

Last Saturday I was at a country dance. A Cowboy Waltz came on and, even though though I hadn't done it in years and didn't remember a thing, I let myself get dragged out on to the floor -- but I did warn her. All I could do was the basic and to lead her into a right turn (after a quick mental calculation of which foot she needed to be on to pull it off -- and I did guess it right). She seemed pleased overall.

Later that night, when another waltz came on she was recommending me highly to her friends. When I protested that I only knew the basic and one move, she retorted: "He can lead. He stays in time with the music. And he knows when to turn you." and looked at them like, "What more could we ask for?"

OK, guys, now we know what's important. Let's get to work!

that's cool 8)
luh

[Swingless]

Maybe I should start a new thread for this question called Not-so beginner lead but I thought I'd try this thread first. When I took beginner East Coast Swing classes about three years ago I got nothing but extremely positive feedback on my lead because it was clear and confident (I'd taken ballroom several years ago so most of what I was learning was a *******er). As I advanced and started asking the more experienced follows to dance I got the impression from many of them that they wanted a lead to give them room to do their own things. The problem is my experience in the classroom had turned me into a Lindy control freak. How can I learn to lead an experienced follow without micromanaging her swing?

[Sagitta]

Maybe I should start a new thread for this question called Not-so beginner lead but I thought I'd try this thread first. When I took beginner East Coast Swing classes about three years ago I got nothing but extremely positive feedback on my lead because it was clear and confident (I'd taken ballroom several years ago so most of what I was learning was a *******er). As I advanced and started asking the more experienced follows to dance I got the impression from many of them that they wanted a lead to give them room to do their own things. The problem is my experience in the classroom had turned me into a Lindy control freak. How can I learn to lead an experienced follow without micromanaging her swing?Experience and being comfortable with your dancing. Learning that it isn't about "control". Having the intention but not being attached to the outcome. My housemate siad yesterday night that she enjoyed being able to express herself while following me in salsa. That's what you are aiming for.

[Flat Shoes]

Maybe I should start a new thread for this question called Not-so beginner lead but I thought I'd try this thread first. When I took beginner East Coast Swing classes about three years ago I got nothing but extremely positive feedback on my lead because it was clear and confident (I'd taken ballroom several years ago so most of what I was learning was a *******er). As I advanced and started asking the more experienced follows to dance I got the impression from many of them that they wanted a lead to give them room to do their own things. The problem is my experience in the classroom had turned me into a Lindy control freak. How can I learn to lead an experienced follow without micromanaging her swing?
1. Relax!
2. Play

First, don't be harder than necessary in the frame and lead. You should use only as much strength as is necessary to lead what you want to lead. Lower the shoulders and relax the frame.

Second, play around. Swing is about having fun. Fun is not leading the partner through strict moves. Fun is playing around, making mistakes, improvising etc. As you relax the lead, you should relax the attitude as well.

Practice a lot. Dance a lot. We all go through stages before we finf out who we are on the dancefloor, and have we make the dance ours. As long as you are aware of what you're doing, it will just take time and practice.

[Dancelf]

How can I learn to lead an experienced follow without micromanaging her swing?

Are you asking how to learn, or what to learn? The answer to the first is easy: practice, practice, practice.

Ideas for the latter:

1) Some patterns inherently give the followers more freedom than others. So look around you, determine which patterns the followers experiment with most often. Lead those patterns frequently.

2) Turn down the volume on your connection (i.e. lead less, without leading less often). The connection should still arrive at the same places at the same time, but with less pressure. Practice less secure hand holds, especially those with less surface contact - in other words, using hand shapes so that if you do lead hard, the hands will slip. Note that as you get the hang of this, you'll want to learn to shift gears - maxing the volume when you need her to step precisely where you are leading (traffic control), turning it back down to indicate the available freedom. The volume of the connection tells the follower how carefully she needs to be listening.

3) Make sure the flow of control gives her a fair share of the cool bits of the music to play with. While you are trying to learn this, a fair share=all the cool bits. Once you've gotten the practice you need, you'll start reclaiming some of these bits for yourself, or for the partnership.

Insert Standard Westie Disclaimer here.

[little_jazz]

How can I learn to lead an experienced follow without micromanaging her swing?

- Swing Out!!! In a Swing Out I (as a follower) has 4 beats out of 8 to play with, 7-8-1-2. I love Swing Outs. I could do a whole song of them, but then I would get dizzy. When I lead (yes, I lead too) I feel boring doing the same thing over and over, but it’s just because I’m not such a skilled lead that I can play in the Swing Outs in the same way I do as a follower.

- Listen to your follower. Learn to follow her. If she wants space she will let you know and then you must be able to read her signals (probably variations in you connection).

- Open your mind. First you learn figures and moves in classes and then you should forget about them. Listen to the music and use it to build your dance.

[huey]

How can I learn to lead an experienced follow without micromanaging her swing?
Good question.

I used to worry about this, but I'm a bit more relaxed about it now.

One thing I do (following a tip from some teachers in a group class), is:

1. Do a standard swingout
2. At the end of the swingout, with your partner in 'open' position, just rock back, i.e. 'back-rock, back-rock, back-rock, back-rock' on 1-2, 3-4, 5-6, 7-8.
3. When you do this, you should find that most experienced followers will start 'playing'

It doesn't tend to work with beginners, as they don't have the confidence or connection to 'play', but the more experienced followers tend to enjoy it.

Give it a try!