Musicality

[borikensalsero]

I was asked a few very intriguing questions in one of the threads(now locked), which I didn't directly answer, but thought I indirectly answer it through this thread.

While dancing is about self expression, it is totally dependant on the song. If that wasn't the case, then the music need not be present. The best performances usually contain an impeccable physical representation of the song, rather than an impeccably display of skill over a song that are totally unrelated.

When dancing, we certainly can go ahead and do whatever we want, however, the question isn't how many things we can do to a song but rather, depending totally on the song, how well do our actions blend to musicality. How well does our bodily story match that of the story being told by the song?

I'd be willing to bet the house I don't have that the number one complain form the salsa elite is that of a lack of musicality by dancers.

I like to think of musicality by using a singer as an example. Let’s think of someone who can sing her heart out. She has the vocal skills that parallel none, has her own incredible style, etc. So a salsa band asks her to sing for them, the band starts playing, wow what a voice, everyone agrees… After the first song, the leader of band says, you have an incredible voice. However, here are a few things that will keep you from continuing tonight. You must sing to the clave, you are off pitch and off beat. You have a great voice and unique style, but you must keep in mind that while music and singing are self expression, they are dependant on something called the song.

What happened to her? Well, it was agreed that she had and outstanding voice and style, but when the song was put in the equation she didn't sound all that great.

That is the point of good dancing. It doesn't matter what the dancer thinks he can do to a song. What matters is how well, that which the dancer does blends to the music.

How good would it be for that singer to sing an at-your-face-hold-no-prisoners, when the band is playing a salsa romantica? Not very! She certainly expressed her self and interpretation of the song, but how well was her interpretation of that song?

So, while we all interpret musicality differently there are things we do while we dance that do not interpret the song at all, but rather what we can do.

A rather nice way to think of musical interpretation through the body is: If I were dancing to an audience that was deaf and I wanted them to know what the song was about. What would I do to stress the high, lows, syncopations, breaks, the story, etc of the song that when they got up they'd know exactly what the song was about.

It would be more than fine to do whatever we felt like doing, and it would be more than fine since it is street dancing after. But in reality, why the need for music if we are simply going to do whatever we want to do and show that audience how great we can dance regardless of music. That is when salsa becomes egotistical and stops being selfless.

Sadly, although dancing is about self expression that self expression is totally dependant on the song and not our skills, nor what feels great to us but out of place. ‘cuase that singer sure felt great singing her heart out, too bad she wasn’t in synch to the band.

There is nothing wrong with doing anything we want while dancing, it is what you want to do after all. But to take the next step we must unite body to band, the closer they blend the better the dance.

Lets not be Tasmanian devils dancing to boleros…

More than anything in Salsa dancing, musicality says more than skill displayed during a song. the more intune with the music, the less we'll find ourselves doing whatever we want just because we can...

[genEus]

You deserve a standing ovation as far as I'm concerned! :applause: :applause: :applause:

In the latest documentary on Frankie Martinez there's a scene where he's at his apartment in Queens, watching an old Mambo show. He said something that I've always believed in myself but coming from Him it made it so much better. He basically said that we've become so caught up in *new* and *flashy* that in the race to come up with crazier and crazier things to do on the dance floor we forgot to *dance.* He said that even if you only know a few basic moves but you actually *dance* and feel the music and do what the music dictates, you can be the most dangerous mambo dancer out there. Too often I see guys going through the same combinations regardless of what music is playing. But you know, sometimes I wonder if those guys don't know any better or simply don't care. A lot of the same people have been through musicality workshops, shines workshops, creativity workshops, etc, but they continue to do the same mechanical motions over and over and over with no regard to the music...

What's funny is that in my short time dancing and being a part of this forum this issue has come up so many times in so many different variations, it feels like beating a dead horse. :eyebrow:

[alemana]

it's kind of ironic for frankie to say that, considering the way he dances and his choreography.

but in general of course i agree.

a former teacher of mine brought musicality to a BEGINNER class in a very interesting way.

the class was definitely beginner level, but the goal was a 'beginner' studio performance 3 months later or so. so in addition to teaching us the basic, she had to start working on the choreography with us right away.

at the end of the very first hour, she put on the song we'd be dancing to, turned down the lights, and had us freestyle.

we danced and laughed for a couple minutes until we were comfortable and we could get inside the music a little. then she called us out one at a time to do our little moves.

those moves, during the very first hour of our instruction, became the basis for our little solos during the performance months later. we refined them, but her message was clear as a bell - what you feel is how you should dance.

[dTas]

i agree totally... the dance must match the music. its more pleasureable when what the eyes are seeing matches what the ears are hearing and better yet what the body is feeling (when you are dancing)

unfortunately for me practically all salsa music sounds the same. i hear a lot of emotion in all other types of music but i just cant find the emotion in salsa. perhaps its because i don't know spanish all that well but to me salsa comes across as a bunch of rhythmic beats. a metronome would serve the same function.

i've seem people jump when a certain salsa song comes on but i don't share their excitement. i do jump when a certain cha cha or rumba comes on but i just don't see it in salsa. i've had to resort to loving the dance and connecting with my partner and i miss the connection with the song. :(

[HF]

@borikensalsero :applause: :applause::applause:

Think food again ...

[africana]

woohoo yes this is it!! :DA rather nice way to think of musical interpretation through the body is: If I were dancing to an audience that was deaf and I wanted them to know what the song was about. What would I do to stress the high, lows, syncopations, breaks, the story, etc of the song that when they got up they'd know exactly what the song was about.

If you ever hear people refer to your dancing in this way, being able to see the story in the song interpreted through your body, being able to "see" the music when watching you dance, that's a sign :D

You don't need to understand spanish for that to happen, and you don't need to learn a bunch of "salsa" moves either

[Josh]

unfortunately for me practically all salsa music sounds the same. i hear a lot of emotion in all other types of music but i just cant find the emotion in salsa. perhaps its because i don't know spanish all that well but to me salsa comes across as a bunch of rhythmic beats. a metronome would serve the same function.

i've seem people jump when a certain salsa song comes on but i don't share their excitement. i do jump when a certain cha cha or rumba comes on but i just don't see it in salsa. i've had to resort to loving the dance and connecting with my partner and i miss the connection with the song. :(

Have you listened to a lot of old salsa? I would think you have. I've found that classic old-school salsa has much more depth to it than newer stuff. For example, when I first joined DF several months ago, I was into this CD called "Salsa Fresca" which has some 90's salsa songs. I was so in love with it, and while I still like it, some of the songs just don't have that *something* (sorry, can't articulate). My favorite CD as of late is Ray Barretto's Indestructible. It has awesome salsa (first and last tracks are dynamite) and track 2 is such a hot cha-cha... it just has it. It's 30+ years old, and has that classic sound.

I am with you on cha-cha (as in REAL cha-cha music, not just music that can be cha-cha'd to). In my short time dancing cha-cha, I have found it so much easier to feel the music. Maybe it's because there is not as much cha-cha as salsa being played out there? I don't know.

[Canadian Guy]

More than anything in Salsa dancing, musicality says more than skill displayed during a song. the more intune with the music, the less we'll find ourselves doing whatever we want just because we can...

While I agree with this - I think what you are really saying is that we need to become choreographers or learn to choereograph on the fly.

The ability to fit or arrange steps and sequences to music is what choreography is all about.

Salsa dance schools rarely teach choreography in their programs.

But I agree that this is what is required to advance to the top levels of Salsa.

[genEus]

unfortunately for me practically all salsa music sounds the same. i hear a lot of emotion in all other types of music but i just cant find the emotion in salsa. perhaps its because i don't know spanish all that well but to me salsa comes across as a bunch of rhythmic beats. a metronome would serve the same function.

i've seem people jump when a certain salsa song comes on but i don't share their excitement. i do jump when a certain cha cha or rumba comes on but i just don't see it in salsa. i've had to resort to loving the dance and connecting with my partner and i miss the connection with the song. :(

Have you listened to a lot of old salsa? I would think you have. I've found that classic old-school salsa has much more depth to it than newer stuff. For example, when I first joined DF several months ago, I was into this CD called "Salsa Fresca" which has some 90's salsa songs. I was so in love with it, and while I still like it, some of the songs just don't have that *something* (sorry, can't articulate). My favorite CD as of late is Ray Barretto's Indestructible. It has awesome salsa (first and last tracks are dynamite) and track 2 is such a hot cha-cha... it just has it. It's 30+ years old, and has that classic sound.

I am with you on cha-cha (as in REAL cha-cha music, not just music that can be cha-cha'd to). In my short time dancing cha-cha, I have found it so much easier to feel the music. Maybe it's because there is not as much cha-cha as salsa being played out there? I don't know.

1) Ray Barretto, 2) Spanish Harlem Orchestra, 3) Tito Puente. If they don't get your blood pumping, I don't think there's a cure. :tongue: Listen to the songs "Indestructible," "El hijo de obatala," "Soy dichoso" from Barretto's "Salsa Caliente De Nu York" CD (easily found on BitTorrent) and also on BT you can find Spanish Harlem Orchestra's "Across 110th Street" CD, also some great great music. I cannot believe dTas could compare salsa to a metronome. Tito Puente must have just rolled over in his grave :lol:

On the topic of knowing Spanish - it has very little to do with it. I had all the songs from the "Salsa Caliente De Nu York" CD translated by a native Spanish speaker and trust me, nothing really overly exciting or poetic, (on the contrary), so language shouldn't be a factor.

Oh, and tune out Marc Anthony, La India, Jennifer Lopez, Victor Manuelle (with exception of a couple of songs like Llore Llore) or Oscar D'Leon (also with exception of a couple of older songs) -- because yes, the synthesized beat makes them sound painfully similar.

[alemana]

you don't need to call it choreography - it's just dancing! choreography on the fly = dancing, or shining if you wanna be all salsa about it.



josh - agree with you. that 90's salsa, meh. it'll do in a pinch but it's not what gets my juices flowin.

[africana]

geNus I'm supremely impressed with how quickly you've mastered this stuff!! it takes many a dancer years before they realize that salsa without feeling salsa is so much less than it could be

good for you 8)

[alemana]

eh, it's not that useful to tell someone who doesn't have a feel for salsa music "if you just listened to X, you'd get it." y'know, to each their own. i know what works for ME, but that's only me.

[borikensalsero]

some times it is usefull to have a person pay attention to their feelings rather than listening to the songs. Feel the type of reaction, even if none, the song has on you. The more intune to your feelings the easier it will be for the person to feel the music.

At times is innate, other times we need to work at it...

Close your eyes, absorb the music, but consentrate on your feelings. Little by little the music will be felt more and more... For what is really felt, is not the music, but our feelings.......

Salsa is too "complicated" and at times not very easy to pick up the overall feel, at which times it just sounds like someone falling down the stairs. But with time, evey bump generated by the fall will mean something different, eventually the overall why the fall, when, where and how will be obvious.... Until then just listen to the music, but pay attention to your emotions.

[genEus]

eh, it's not that useful to tell someone who doesn't have a feel for salsa music "if you just listened to X, you'd get it." y'know, to each their own. i know what works for ME, but that's only me.

It IS most certainly useful to tell someone what to listen to, alemana! I wish someone had pointed me in the right direction earlier. All I knew about salsa was that it was a popular Latin dance, which people dance to the songs of Mark Anthony, Victor Manuelle and other Latin pop stars of today. That was all I knew and I had never any desire to dance to that music (still don't)! When I first saw my instructor dance and heard the mambo music that he was dancing to, that was THE moment when I got hooked! So, *knowing* is already a big piece of the puzzle! 8)

[Vin]

Everyone's path to musicallity is different. For about year when I first started listening to salsa I thought pop-salsa was awesome and I couldn't bring myself to listen to some of the older stuff in my music collection. Now some of the music I used to dislike is among my favorite music because I have learned to appreciate it.

You can lead new salser@'s to great music but you can't force them to like it or appreciate it.

Musicality means different things to different people, for me it is characterized by something as simple as pausing when you hear a break in the music.

BTW no discussion of great salsa music with funk and groove can be complete without mention of El Gran Combo. There newer stuff and there older stuff has swing baby!!!!!!!!!!!

I also like alot of the music put out by Africando.

[genEus]

Everyone's path to musicallity is different. For about year when I first started listening to salsa I thought pop-salsa was awesome and I couldn't bring myself to listen to some of the older stuff in my music collection. Now some of the music I used to dislike is among my favorite music because I have learned to appreciate it.

You can lead new salser@'s to great music but you can't force them to like it or appreciate it.

Musicality means different things to different people, for me it is characterized by something as simple as pausing when you hear a break in the music.

BTW no discussion of great salsa music with funk and groove can be complete without mention of El Gran Combo. There newer stuff and there older stuff has swing baby!!!!!!!!!!!

I also like alot of the music put out by Africando.

Hehe. In my earlier post where I gave the three names I originally put "El Gran Combo de PR" and Africando right after but something made me delete those two. Yup. Great music. And, no I didn't say I don't like modern salsa - I love listening to La India and I love Victor Manuelle. But I wouldn't really *dance* dance to them - it would usually be a very close embrace (to use a tango term) with my girlfriend and very small steps of the front-back basic. :)

[alemana]

Vin, i didn't object to telling people what you like to listen to or to telling them what you think is good. i objected to "if you just would listen to X, you would feel Y!" i think that's facile and a little patronizing. the person who said they didn't really 'feel' salsa is a dance teacher after all - i give them the benefit of the doubt that they've heard a lot of different salsa music, first, and secondly that they have a well-developed 'musicality' already - that is, they understand how to connect with music emotionally when they are dancing.

[Vin]

Agree with you 100% Alemana. I am even pointing out that in my case when people were pointing me in the direction of great music I wasn't ready to listen to it.

[africana]

unfortunately for me practically all salsa music sounds the same. i hear a lot of emotion in all other types of music but i just cant find the emotion in salsa. perhaps its because i don't know spanish all that well but to me salsa comes across as a bunch of rhythmic beats. a metronome would serve the same function.
....i miss the connection with the song. :(

i objected to "if you just would listen to X, you would feel Y!" i think that's facile and a little patronizing. the person who said they didn't really 'feel' salsa is a dance teacher after all - i give them the benefit of the doubt that they've heard a lot of different salsa music, first, and secondly that they have a well-developed 'musicality' already - that is, they understand how to connect with music emotionally when they are dancing. no "benefit of doubt" needed ;) his experience is pretty darn clear, has little connection

we may all disagree on how to reach musicality, or even what it is, but eventually everybody's journey involves actually paying attention the music, every component of it, until it evokes some sort of feeling that will translate into motor movements and further enrich the dance, whether aesthetically and/or internally

[elgrancombo]

Wow dTas, no disrespect, but I disagree with you absolutely and completely. I don't speak much Spanish and I'm not a lyrics guy, but My God, Salsa/Mambo music is incredibly complex and stimulating. I am a trained musician and I've been into all kinds of music (Classical, Rock, R&B) and to me Afro-Latin music is more stimulating and infectious than anything I've gotten into before. Your thoughts are almost heresy if you're really a Salsa enthusiast. How can you spend so much time dancing if the music doesn't move you?

[africana]

it's that way for a lot of dancers

for me, the musc just drives me crazy sometimes, it's like a possession, sometimes i feel like i have to keep dancing even if it kills me. I'm serious!
with some songs the intensity just won't let go!! last night I was actually screaming GOD!!! love that feeling!
:lol: those are the times I don't enjoy salsa as a strictly partner dance, cos sometimes the spirit just moves you and only you. Unless you encounter one of those rare partners who gets it too...

I swear it's a drug!

[tacad]

I didn't start feeling the differences in salsa music until I started dancing salsa. Then again I had not really listened much to salsa before I started dancing. Though at this point I'm mostly incapable of doing different steps to each song, I move differently depending on the mood of the song.

[Josh]

It IS most certainly useful to tell someone what to listen to, alemana! I wish someone had pointed me in the right direction earlier. All I knew about salsa was that it was a popular Latin dance, which people dance to the songs of Mark Anthony, Victor Manuelle and other Latin pop stars of today. That was all I knew and I had never any desire to dance to that music (still don't)! When I first saw my instructor dance and heard the mambo music that he was dancing to, that was THE moment when I got hooked! So, *knowing* is already a big piece of the puzzle! 8)

I get what you're saying gE... But, sometimes the natural progression and development of a person is what really makes them who they are, the same with a person's development as a salsa dancer. I mean, how odd would it look for someone who just started dancing salsa last month to go buy a bunch of salsa clothes, all the old (GOOD) classic salsa music, get a license plate that says "ILUVSLSA", immediately know all the good spots and good dancers, etc. ...? Sure it would great, but a little too soon for all that. A 13-year-old kid who listens to Coltrane and Miles? Awesome, but a little ...weird. Development of musicality takes time I think... I've progressed but realize I have a long way to go. I'd like to think of musical tastes as neither right nor wrong, good nor bad, but simply different styles along a dancer's continuum of progression. Early on, maybe it's the more hip-hop-ish (or Marc Anthoy/etc) nsounds that really move the salsa dancer, and that's what it takes to get him/her to the next level. Then it continues...

[dancin/dj]

i agree with some of the points, but i really think anyone has a right to dance how they feel.(does it always look good, no- :roll: ) of course not,and of course like you said boriken you cant dance like a tazdevil to a bolero,but some folks might :cry: ,but on the skid many salsa musicans and salsa dancers stay linear-now a lot of u folk may not like that so be it,its my view and s they say to each his/her own,i mean by this that i've seen many dancers and musicans get stuck on (one point or style and that"s it) if someone likes this fine, i don't , i really think people hear all kinds of things when they hear music-they might be off track for sure, but unless you got a big cotton swab what can u do :?

[genEus]

I mean, how odd would it look for someone who just started dancing salsa last month to go buy a bunch of salsa clothes, all the old (GOOD) classic salsa music, get a license plate that says "ILUVSLSA", immediately know all the good spots and good dancers, etc. ...?

Are you calling me odd? :oops:

[Ms_Sunlight]

A 13-year-old kid who listens to Coltrane and Miles? Awesome, but a little ...weird. Development of musicality takes time I think... I've progressed but realize I have a long way to go.

It depends where you're coming from. If you grow up in a house where people listen to that sort of music... My father has long been a big fan of Sidney Bechet, is it weird that I would happily listen to that sort of stuff, spend hours playing old 78s, when I was 13? Or my mother's Kinks albums?

I'd like to think of musical tastes as neither right nor wrong, good nor bad, but simply different styles along a dancer's continuum of progression. Early on, maybe it's the more hip-hop-ish (or Marc Anthoy/etc) nsounds that really move the salsa dancer, and that's what it takes to get him/her to the next level. Then it continues...

I'm reminded of the old rejoinder -- "Why have hamburger when you can have steak at home?" "I know, but sometimes you just really fancy a hamburger!"

Yes there is a continuum but it's not two-dimensional and there's no reason why you can't appreciate the easily accessible pop and the more classic stuff. And lots of other stuff besides. Want to know my shameful salsa secret? I'm unfaithful. I'm also an indie pop fan who loves Franz Ferdinand, the Super Furry Animals, the Killers...

[Josh]

I mean, how odd would it look for someone who just started dancing salsa last month to go buy a bunch of salsa clothes, all the old (GOOD) classic salsa music, get a license plate that says "ILUVSLSA", immediately know all the good spots and good dancers, etc. ...?

Are you calling me odd? :oops:

Yes, but what's wrong with being odd?? Didn't mean to imply that's the case at all! :D

[Josh]

If you grow up in a house where people listen to that sort of music... My father has long been a big fan of Sidney Bechet, is it weird that I would happily listen to that sort of stuff, spend hours playing old 78s, when I was 13? Or my mother's Kinks albums?

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that it was a bad thing ... just not the norm (which is a good thing!). While my friends were listening to ___ (?) in the mid 90's when I was in high school, I was listening to 50's and 60's music on the radio on my way to school (rode with my mom--she was a teacher at my school--and yes, my teacher as well...oye) ... "good times, great oldies" ... not the norm, but I'm proud of my extensive knowledge of GOOD old music.. :D

Yes there is a continuum but it's not two-dimensional and there's no reason why you can't appreciate the easily accessible pop and the more classic stuff. And lots of other stuff besides. Want to know my shameful salsa secret? I'm unfaithful. I'm also an indie pop fan who loves Franz Ferdinand, the Super Furry Animals, the Killers...

That's perfectly fine. I pride myself on few things, but one of those is my musical versatility--I have everything in my huge CD collection--italian opera, country, classical, hip hop, latin, pop, rock, r&b/soul, indie, jazz, metal, eastern/asian, and probably lots more I can't think of right now (it's 3:18AM). I didn't mean to imply it had to be this or that at some stage in life... just that preferences often change... steak is great, but go ahead--have that hamburger! :D

[Josh]

sorry to make 3 posts in a row ... but....

Just wanted to say that when I was dancing tonight, I thought about our musicality topic, and paid special attention to really hitting the breaks, dancing IN the music, and so forth. It's much easier when I know the song, but even in songs I had never heard before (originals from the live band that was playing, for example), I managed to execute dips right with a break, and it felt great!

[Alias]

I think it's important to note that there are many kinds of salsa music that are quite different from each other, and you can like some and dislike some, so before forming an opinion about "salsa music" you've got to find out these kinds of salsa music (then it's interesting to have some people pointing to some musicians or pieces of music) or try different salsa clubs and DJ in your town (for example clubs where you dance Cuban Casino, and clubs where you dance Mambo).

And you can like right out of the box the more subtle stuff (so it's useful to get pointers to these).

It's also true that there is a progression in one's ability to catch the overall structure and different elements in a kind of music, improving with listening (and dancing to) a kind of music, and translating it into its dance.

[alemana]

josh, i was thinking about this thread too! and wouldn't you know, the song during which i most felt "at one" with the music (it helped that i knew the song) and able to dance inside it, was the highlight of my night - when my partner and i both hit a big move on the final note of the song (independently - it wasn't a dip!) some people sitting near us actually cheered.

it's nice to know that sometimes what you feel inside is actually making it through to your body.

[borikensalsero]

but on the skid many salsa musicans and salsa dancers stay linear-now a lot of u folk may not like that so be it,its my view and s they say to each his/her own,i mean by this that i've seen many dancers and musicans get stuck on (one point or style and that"s it) if someone likes this fine

This is an interesting point, a person who despite acquisition of technical “know-how” never breaks the linear.

I wonder if there is a way around it. Will salsa dancers see the clone world being created? Can the blame be placed on an instructor that says he can instruct, but all that he teaches is what he knows and that is how to follow? Yet, believes that a simple statement of “make what I give you, yours” be enough for a student that has throughout his life, likewise done; follow. An instructor teaches a student to follow, yet dares to blame the student for looking like his clone.

How can a person that truly believes he isn’t following learn that he is indeed following? The instructor should be responsible for what is taught to a student, but we must keep in mind that the instructor can also be following, at which point he really isn’t an instructor but believes and tries to act as one. Too bad the consumer can only see skin deep and never really notices the hoax teaching him/her the ins and outs of superficial thinking. God, it’s like watching the face of Tom Cruse in The Last Samurai when he is told that he is thinking too much. Gee, all that deep thinking he was doing didn’t get him anywhere, wonder why? The poor guy was simply unequipped to understand, never the less apply what was meant. Thank God it was a movie and he figured out right away that to think past the skin, he had to stop thinking technique.

Some salsa instructors think salsa is bodies in motion, so they teach moves, steps, and forget that what is truly being taught through each step and move is the philosophy that drives it. The true technique taught is a philosophy, not the steps. We are simply unequipped to make the distinction, even notice it. A philosophy that is based in linear thinking, can never fruit the abstract! It then gifts students with the inability to reach their inner dancers. If leading was that simple then the masses wouldn’t follow, just like social salsa wouldn’t be a clone world.

How do we differentiate the wannabe’s from the true instructors? Watch his/her overall student body, if they all look the same, then you’ve found a wannabe and I suggest you seek else where. Then we might not even know what we see, therefore, we might as well believe that details in the overall represent difference in the core. I think most of us are pretty much screwed and meant to be taught what, when, and how to do things for us to self-express…

Ever wonder why back in the day the instructor chose the student? It might have something to do with some folks never really being ready…

[africana]

I think entirely too much credit is given the instructors' role or responsibility in teaching finer aspects of dance like musicality.

Think of a salsa class as a mass production, economy-of-scale, production line. You wouldn't expect products from such a "factory" to compare and look like custom-made porducts would you?
Now think of field-customized products, where the consumer buys the parts and assembles the complete product him/herself, adding whatever extra accessory they desire, customizing it. That means every consumer will have something a little different

So the teacher has the responsiblity to provide the needed "parts" and "accessories" (in our case, the tools of dance) but ultimately it's the customer's responsibility to decide when, how, what, and where
The customer can decide to do extra things like paying tech support or some specialized professional to help him/her assemble and maintain the product, compare that to privates, extra workshops, etc

So my point for that long analogy, the teachers might set us off on our paths and help along the way with basic skills and tools, but every dancer must own their path to growth because most times someone else telling you what you need to learn is futile. You have to come to that decision independently and then pursue ways to accomplish those specific goals, like musicality ;)

[borikensalsero]

So my point for that long analogy, the teachers might set us off on our paths and help along the way with basic skills and tools, but every dancer must own their path to growth because most times someone else telling you what you need to learn is futile. You have to come to that decision independently and then pursue ways to accomplish those specific goals, like musicality ;)

Good point, however, the material world and the quantum world are two different entities that can not be approached the same way. What good is for the teacher to tell a student, hey, here are tools that you will use for the path ahead, yet, not teach philosophy behind using the tools? Worse yet, teach a philosophy that miss-uses the tools. The student will never get to the path, and never learn how to really use the tools. Kind of like now, here is the basic, some moves, yet everyone looks the same. Why? Because we assume that a follower who doesn’t even know he is lost, will find the path. Yet, leave it to him to find salsa forever searching in merengue.

If we were to use the analogy of information and responsibility left to the consumer, it would be the same of me saying to a Christian "Come on my friend, you know everything Christianity(Salsa) has to offer, why can't you think like a Santero (musicality)" ?

The Christian doesn't know of Santeria, doesn't even know it exists, he doesn't even know where to look, what questions to ask, nor what is meant by Santeria. How can we ask a blind man to see because we've given him a pair of glasses? How can we ask an English speaker to learn "Martian", if only teach him about verbs, nouns, adjectives, in the English language without teaching him how to combine them to create more than we’ve given them, on top of that never introducing him to Martian? Philosophy, not tools, but what drives the tools and why.

For most folks to find-out about a particular topic, they must be first introduced to that something directly or indirectly. Teaching a Christian about Yemaya , or the practice of Santeria can’t teach him anything about thinking in Santeria. He’ll sure have the tools, but without the philosophy, his tools are nothing more than fluff.

No one can use something he doesn't have, nor know how to accomplish anything without someone first teaching the philosophy behind that something. We can’t teach to drive by sitting in a car and telling someone what the different gadgets are for. We have teach the why and how so we can apply each gadget accordingly to the information we receive in all types of paths, which leaves us with lots of information gained and not an idea of what to do with them. Hey, we can still use them to make a mess.

The worst part of not holding a true instructor to really acting as an instructor is that if we were isolated and a salsa instructor taught us to dance, but instead of salsa, he taught us merengue as Salsa. We would go the rest of our lives thinking that we were really doing something “correct” when in fact we weren’t. Yet we won’t even know we were mistaken! Gladly I am a responsible consumer that will lean towards all there is (the instructor and society) to tell me, Yeah, you are doing salsa. We were indeed equipped! Too bad it was by someone who he, himself, didn’t know what salsa was, and now we’ll live a salsa that isn’t, but all instruction and my accountability of finding truth and knowledge in our world tell me that I am doing the right thing. But was I? How educated or responsible am I to be held when I’m taught something that will never lead to me figuring out my own path, or that I was even lost?

Society is the problem, however, I do not take for granted that some people are truly leaders and can see places where many can’t. Too bad accountability does have to pass through the individual, even if all he or she does is exactly what society/instructor teaches him to do. I can never ask someone to think for himself when all that I’ve ever taught him is words with an underlying philosophy that leads to no more than following and away from being himself.

Do not blame a student who has never being given a philosopical foundation to allow him to be more than his current means, all he is doing is exactly what he has been taught.... We aren't all socrates, some of us really need to be given thinking abilities to see what comes natural to others and for those, I refuse to blame them for my poor abilities as a teacher....

[africana]

wow :) ok....philosophy, no problem. Some teachers teach philoshophy as it applies to dance, some don't. Some know about philosophy, others don't

It's still up to me to gather the information, buy books in the origins of salsa/afro-cuban music, travel, read DF ;) or even study santeria, candomble or other derivatives of African ritual dance that have influenced the music and dance we call salsa. Along the way other dancers and teachers like yourself will point out new ideas to investigate, new skills to acquire, new philosophies to study.
The decision is still mine to decide wether these elements are valid, whether I gain pleasure out of it, when it satisfies my thirst for knowledge/fullfilment/excersice/fun/whatever. And of course what is valid for one individual may not be valid for another. Depending on the context of past experience, personal beliefs or new knowledge, I may not be willing or able to absorb all new ideas or philosophies. Or perphaps my absorption will be relatively incomplete compared to someone else
But the end result is individualistic. What's wrong with that?

So I guess we're really both saying the same thing: people have to think and explore for themselves.
but I say the responsility lies with the individual, you say it belongs to the teacher. But doesn't that make the individual too much of a follower?

[borikensalsero]

I agree with you, but we refer to two different questions. I am not questioning the truth of a person's need to search, rather, the inability of an instructor to equip a person for any search, right now musicality. No student will find musicality through steps and patterns, style nor Cuban motion, rather the philosphy behind musicality…

My responsibility as a teacher is to equip the student with the necessary tools to progress, that tool is philosophical rather than material.

My responsibility as a student is to take what I am given (philosophy) and progress (create the material).

With that said, you touched upon the real issue by saying Along the way other dancers and teachers like yourself will point out new ideas to investigate, new skills to acquire, new philosophies to study.

If the above is never done, the person can never search that which isn't known. Here is where I hold accountability to the instructor, before there is even a search for the student to explore. Before a student is held responsible for what he doesn’t know, he must have prior knowledge of what to search and how to survive in it.

I refer to step one, knowledge of the topic, rather than step two which is the readily possession of knowledge and the start of the search.

[borikensalsero]

but I say the responsility lies with the individual, you say it belongs to the teacher. But doesn't that make the individual too much of a follower?

That is my point, no real instructor will teach a student how to follow, rather how to lead. This is pretty much the way eastern Philosophy works. It teaches how to break lose of rules and be your own self. Where as western philosophy teaches a person to follow. Now a day even psychiatry works that way, they don't tell the person how to solve his/her problems, rather, they equip the person with the tools to figure-out their own problems, those tools are all thinking.

Right now, we've let students be their own leads, yet they aren't prepared for the salsa life ahead of them. We've given them tools, but they can't make them work. We need to teach people how to think, not how to do, but think.

[gte692h]

this is a beautiful duel between africana and boriken, so keep going. i just had to post this and get back to work, so don't bother with my post..

i was watching this show on PBS the other day, about this piano competition by some budding solo performers, and one of them was taking advice from the judge on what made a good piano player, and he said something very moving:

he said, you can learn a lot of songs, and learn a repertoire of songs, but what you must work on is a repertoire of emotions. as humans, we have those, they not be learned, but we can't just express one emotion in our playing.

he went to say how mozart had a variety of emotions in his piano playing.. all that was above me, but the parallels to musicality, wrt dance, are there.

[alemana]

OMG


that is blowing my mind.

[africana]

person can never search that which isn't known. Here is where I hold accountability to the instructor, before there is even a search for the student to explore. Before a student is held responsible for what he doesn’t know, he must have prior knowledge of what to search and how to survive in it.

Ok I'm understanding better what you're saying, yes steps and patterns aren't the road. they are merely tools
We could argue about just how many tools the teachers should provide but I still think the intructors aren't meant to be gods. They too are human, and the best teachers remain students.

My personal example, I remember looking up to my first instructors, but it wasn't long before I started my own independent journey of self-exploration and discovery, it wasn't too long before I discovered abilities that they did not teach me, or philosophy or otherwise.
I was also fortunate that these intructors were big enough to see that and affirm my individual search for growth. And I can say there weren't any other students around me that were progressing down the same path as I was. I was seeking out other teachers, other dancers, other approaches to salsa (for example travelling to Cuba, learning their dances, etc). I still do that independent of a teacher. And it's a seemingly unending path of having my eyes open to new areas of growth.

For example 2 years ago I had a particular habit when it comes to partner dancing: basically being so into the music and how it moves me that I actually forgot about my partner, forgot about following when things got boring (to me ;) ). Well some people tried to tell me about this aspect of dance, but I wasn't ready to accept it, sure I could follow decently but sometimes I just was not into it, it wasn't as exciting to me
But when I was ready, about 2 years ago, I made up my mind to be a good follower, to make it a challenge, develop my own style; in addition to still enjoying the music as intensely as I possibly can in the context of following. Now that's another path that I chose

So not to be recursive, but one could say that part of gathering knowledge is gathering knowledge on how to gather knowledge and what type of knowledge to gather. Part of getting answers to questions is discovering what questions to ask. An answer I get today might develop into a new question tomorrow.

And it's only hungry, curious people that keep searching for the right questions

[borikensalsero]

And it's only hungry, curious people that keep searching for the right questions

True indeed even if there isn't such a thing as a right question, as you've stated, it is knowledge that leads to question. Some of us don't need a teacher readily present we've already had them...

Without knowledge or the hunger that uses knowledge to search, then no question can ever be asked. It’s like asking the blind to explain color after being taught about color, then getting upset that they are off in the wrong path to explanation.

Salsa teachers right now explain color to the blind as what they see, yet the blind don’t understand, then they get mad that the blind didn’t take what was given to them to find a path to color!

As a teacher one is to give the blind person something he can relate to and expand his own search to see color. We can’t teach him what we see. We need to teach the blind to live what he will see. How would we do that? We’ve already failed by explaining what our seeing eyes see. If we are wise and know how to use his world and thinking to see color, then we’ll explain cotton for white, fire for red, blue as peace… It is the ability to use current knowledge to become more, that a teacher is to give to his students. Nothing more… Those might very well be God-like attributes. Anyone less than that, should still be a student, this includes some of the top “instructors” in salsa.

Teach a student to how to build, even find the search, and more so find them-selves… We are all in search in one way or another, at this time salsa but we haven’t found it because our teachers themselves are lost in an ocean of technique, which leads them to teach the wrong tools for the path we haven’t even discovered as present...

The role of a teacher is not to limit, but to aid in the search, to expand it. To help see the things one can not question without prior knowledge, to give one the boost one needs to get over speed bumps. The opening of doors that the net, books, nor friends could have yielded. Could have Plato being Plato without Socrates? There aren't many Socrates; some of us indeed need to be Plato...

It will never be the search in a person that I question, rather when a teacher is present yet is unable to aid a person to freely think, and instead teaches more limits. To take the responsibility of being a teacher of another person, yet filled them with empty searches, dead ends, should be a sin. We would not know of Plato if it wasn't for Socrates. While we would still know of Socrates from the thinking he caused in his peers.

Don’t not see my words as a fight against a person’s needs to search, that is a given, rather, why an instructor fails to prepare a student with the necessary means to open up new doorways to aid a students search. And why after a student has been to salsa class he doesn’t know of Salsa, yet we blamed for not dancing, or knowing about it. Worse, blame a person whose search has been away from salsa, for not dancing Salsa nor knowing of Salsa.

You are lucky Africana that you have the ability to see a path and follow it. However, remember that trigger (Plato) isn’t source (Socrates).

Even while I use a self approach as my instructor, which I believe your point to be, I do not deny that many of us need a Socrates to point us in the right direction, rather than a buffoon to point us to Egypt when we are in search of Cuba. Then, I fight the so called teachers.

[borikensalsero]

God, you'd think that after all that rambling I've done today. I wouldn't forget anything...

In addition:
Knowledge without the ability of mind to apply it is pretty much "use-less". (unapplied knowlege is the same as not having any)

[dancin/dj]

boriken, i think in quantum(i do"nt spell in quantum :) ) so some of your points(and dear africanas) are well said(some) i wont try to repeat what was said ,its really the same thing i was saying but you said it in a different way( i study myself-socrates etc...... and much more :wink: ,breaking out of linear is a simplistic way of saying what u said in depth,at any rate i've seen way to many robotic salsa dancers,and a good example of this was a cuban band was playing and the dancers who for the most part never heard this style music(its usually new york or pr style) danced the same way they always do and really even some of the (best looked sooooooooo silly)never feeling or really listening to the music. new style is cool of course and pr style sure of course but thats not the point-which i know you understand,i see your socratic style to bring discussion and points to where they will lead 8) cool 8)

[africana]

Salsa teachers right now explain color to the blind as what they see, yet the blind don’t understand, then they get mad that the blind didn’t take what was given to them to find a path to color!
wow that is a beautiful comparison :notworth: :notworth:

So the question is: how do you propose to equip salsa teachers to equip their students, to reveal the types of insight you're talking about? It seems almost impossible to apply universally. Even the so-called trained teachers don't understand half the importance of drawing inpiration from music, and I'm not even touching any religious aspects (cos I believe the social aspect of dance can remain separate from these other links based on individual choice)


Could have Plato being Plato without Socrates? There aren't many Socrates; some of us indeed need to be Plato... And at the expense of further recursion who inspired Socrates? :P

[borikensalsero]

wow that is a beautiful comparison :notworth: :notworth:

Thank you so much! :kissme:


So the question is: how do you propose to equip salsa teachers to equip their students, to reveal the types of insight you're talking about? It seems almost impossible to apply universally. Even the so-called trained teachers don't understand half the importance of drawing inpiration from music, and I'm not even touching any religious aspects (cos I believe the social aspect of dance can remain separate from these other links based on individual choice)


Ever watch a Karate movie, or a buddhist/Taosist based movie? There is always one guy who thinks they are the best because they've mastered all technique, to which the "maestro" always says, You are almost there, but you aren't ready. That or the master woops his butt all over the floor with one hand. The students leaves infuriated that he isn't allowed to start his own school, or be taught the greater ways of "being". The student actually knows them, but he is too busy not paying attention and searching in a different place...

A person isn't ready because they think they are. Readiness is a state of mind that needs to become applied action. Not until that happens the student is allowed to become a "master", nor led into a self journey. Usually the master knows, way before the student, when he is ready to fly on his own. The master is simply waiting for the student to be hush and start listening to the hidden words, to think on his own.

That is the problem with salsa instructors and why it can't be universally applied. Teachers are still in the beginning stages of a student. We as a whole deal with the physical and forget that behind every physical display there is a philosophy that causes it, and that is never questioned... We have an absolute number of people who, because they can move around the floor, think they are ready to teach. Those folks aren't philosophically ready to takes such leap, for they, themselves are still at a learning stage. They've yet to surpass technique. I've yet to come across an elite dancer who talks the talk and walks the walk. All I've seen is the talk with no applied action, as if karate was throwing good punches.


And at the expense of further recursion who inspired Socrates? :P
No recursion, perhaps I didn't explain my postion all that well...

I haven't taken away the fact that some folks take the simple and turn it into complex. I'll never doubt that. I, however, will question that todays teachings of artistic expression is leading anywhere for the masses. We are stuck in monkey see monkey does, and for that we need a little bump that should be represented by the so called "instructors". :D

Socrates was one of the few that could see further than his eye sight allowed. Humanity has seen very few like him. You can dump Jesus, Confusious, Muhammad, Buddha, Eisntein, Galileo, Lao Tzu Tao and the rest of "seers" you can think of. Those are the people who we know all of us are just like us, but unlike us, they were able to do more with the same means of thinking. Those folks only needed basic info to turn it into vast info. That is where I like to see folks head their dancing, and for that, we as Plato, need to have someone teach us how to find the Socrates within... the ability to freely feel and think...

[borikensalsero]

(best looked sooooooooo silly)never feeling or really listening to the music. new style is cool of course and pr style sure of course but thats not the point-which i know you understand,i see your socratic style to bring discussion and points to where they will lead 8) cool 8)

DJ,
Isn't that wild? Once we begin to feel the music, even if we don't feel it. Listening to it extremely careful, we begin to notice how a US Mambo Based style doesn't fit all that well with a certain style of music. It's cool that people want to shake their bodies and have fun, but from an observational point of view, the music and the dance collide like two 18 wheelers head on.

BTW.. thanks for the comments on my socratic, I’d like to think of it more like eratic, style. :D

[africana]

A person isn't ready because they think they are. Readiness is a state of mind that needs to become applied action. Not until that happens the student is allowed to become a "master", nor led into a self journey. Usually the master knows, way before the student, when he is ready to fly on his own. The master is simply waiting for the student to be hush and start listening to the hidden words, to think on his own. And who exactly decides when the student is ready to become a teacher? Does the teacher tell the student "you can't teach yet because...blah blah blah"? Will the student listen?
Eastern philosophy is a contrary system to the way thing work in the salsa world.

IMO most salsa teachers are hustlers, in a positive sense :P meaning they got into it because there was a demand so they could make $$ at it. Most times it's the students who want to learn some aspect of dance who "elect" a teacher, by paying him/her
The salsa system is firmly rooted in capitalism (good or bad)

So I answered my own question: The flow of Mammon determines who is ready to be teacher, therefore this idealisitic method of "becoming" ready will never apply in such a $$-driven culture (good or bad depending on perspective)

[alemana]

ding ding ding

[borikensalsero]

ding ding ding

Can I add a couple of more dings, dings to this one???

Sadly now a days the material heads the world... we can choose to follow or create our own path... the choice is ours, but not realy. hehe

[Josh]

[thread revival]

Just wanted to post to this thread since last night I had a rather distressing (I'm so dramatic) moment... I was sitting back, taking a break, having a beer, and watching all the dancers dance. The live band was playing an original (or at least it sounded like it), not a cover, but the music was fairly standard salsa--pretty predictible breaks. Beautiful stuff. I could tell when the breaks were coming, mentally hitting about 80% or so of them. The problem was, only about 2 or 3 couples of the 40 or so on the floor actually stopped when the music stopped!! It was like I was in one of those movies where a person has the ability to see the future, and they see a crime take place, and it's horrifying, and they try to stop it, only they can't... I knew the break(s) were coming, and I wanted everyone to just kill it when it hit, but alas, no such thing happened. It was as if everyone had huge NASA-grade noise cancellation headphones on, and they were just dancing to the music in their head. I actually lowered my head a bit (not in a "you idiots, listen to the music!" way, but in a "woe is us, we can do so much better" way). Among those who committed these acts were other instructors, those who are considered "good," and newcomers alike. And since I don't want to double-post this experience to the "Importance of Timing" thread, I'll mention this-- I'd estimate about 40% or 50% were actually dancing on time...!! (note I'm saying on time, not even on a particular beat--dancing on the 5? fine, but for the love of all that is holy, stay ON THE 5!--even this wasn't happening...)

It's not like me to be distressed seriously at this kind of thing for 24 hours, but it's happened. Any words of comfort? I'll say this--as much as I have talked about musicality and timing to my students before, I will intensify my efforts even more. I'm doing an out-of-town workshop in July, and I will make musicality and timing a priority. It really hurts to watch 'off-music' and off-time dancers lately... it hurts my soul. Does anyone else feel my pain? Please help.

[Big10]

Any words of comfort? I'll say this--as much as I have talked about musicality and timing to my students before, I will intensify my efforts even more. I'm doing an out-of-town workshop in July, and I will make musicality and timing a priority. It really hurts to watch 'off-music' and off-time dancers lately... it hurts my soul. Does anyone else feel my pain? Please help.
Does it make you feel better for me to say, "You are not alone"? Sometimes I just stand back to watch the dancers, and I've noticed (and felt) the same thing you've described, both here in my city and in other major cities where I've traveled. For the average nightclub, the percentage of people with "consistent" timing all the way through a song (at least returning to the 1 or 2 or 3 or wherever you started) is definitely less than 50%. I have likewise observed that a decent proportion of the violators are instructors, members of dance troupes, and/or people with status as being "good" dancers.:? And, of course, timing is an essential aspect of musicality.

I'm not an instructor myself, but when people ask me for recommendations, I limit my recommendations to instructors who have good timing and a good grasp of musicality. However, as long as people continue to be impressed by the flashiest dips and spins, instructors with that style will always continue to get students, regardless of whatever deficiencies they might have in timing/musicality.

[devane]

For the average nightclub, the percentage of people with "consistent" timing all the way through a song (at least returning to the 1 or 2 or 3 or wherever you started) is definitely less than 50%.

I sometimes watch the crowd seeing who is on the 1 or 4 (sometimes people dance 4 beats out of sync). A lot of the time I can't see anyone dancing on the same beat. It's like 20 couples all on their own rhythm.
We have a live Cuban band on Wednesdays. It use to be impossible to dance before because there was no percussion. Some of the songs without percussion felt like jazz. Last week we had a guy who played Timbales & La Clave. At last I could dance to their songs. Later I was saying "wow, the band is totally differrent, now we have La Clave there is a clear rhythm, we can dance right now". All I got was blank faces and " a what?,a cla what?" except for one dance teacher who later spoke to me about the lack of musicality among students.
Even if a teacher taught a class it's still up to the student to train their musical ear.

Dance moves alone are not enough to dance. That noise in the background is called music and you have to blend with it.
Damn, I can't fit that on a T-shirt.

[sweavo]

It's hard to learn how to perceive something... That's essentially the problem we're facing with teaching musicality. I've been thinking about pushing "listening" as being the KEY to dancing well... listening to the music and to the partner, whether you are lead or follow. But listening to the music is so-much percent anticipation too... very tricky to explain to the "deaf"...

[Josh]

It's hard to learn how to perceive something... That's essentially the problem we're facing with teaching musicality. I've been thinking about pushing "listening" as being the KEY to dancing well... listening to the music and to the partner, whether you are lead or follow. But listening to the music is so-much percent anticipation too... very tricky to explain to the "deaf"...


Yeah, you got it. It's like trying to help someone who's going through a tough situation when you've never been through anything like it before... you just can't quite put yourself in their shoes, because you never had that difficulty. Same with me and timing--through all my deficiencies, timing is one thing I've never had a problem with at all. Sure it can be discerned by finding the clave, or cowbell, or bass, or piano, or other percussion, or whatever--but it just doesn't quite flow as well that way when you try to explain it to students. One nice moment came Friday night though, when a long time student (maybe 2 or 3 years) who's never been in my class until recently who was having problems hearing the beat in a Ray Barretto song finally got it when he and I went through it and I told him specific instruments to listen for during certain parts... during those parts of the song after that he was right on beat, hit the breaks perfectly, and I was so proud of him. But then again, this guy is very dedicated, very committed, and eager to learn, so that helped tremendously. It gave me hope that those who have timing problems can get it even after years of not getting it.

I think I agree with your 'listening is the key' idea... I've been thinking along those lines as well. It may not be the ONLY key on the keyring, but it certainly opens a big lock. I have to remember though, that for beginners focusing on their partner and the music at the same time is difficult, when they are still at the point of thinking about their feet.

[Josh]

I have likewise observed that a decent proportion of the violators are instructors, members of dance troupes, and/or people with status as being "good" dancers.:? And, of course, timing is an essential aspect of musicality.
I honestly think that a big part of my progression in these key areas of dancing are a direct result of the time I spend on DF. Seriously. I mean, few others I know besides all of you and some notable big-name instructors really talk about things as simple as listening to the music. So, thank you all DFers. You're an oasis of clarity in a desert of chaos. :wink:

[devane]

That song wasn't "acid" was it?
The best song in my book for practicing new move. The musical phrases are clear and it has a clave too.

ps
Even Edie the Salsa Freak said it is the most difficult thing to teach.

[sweavo]

I think I agree with your 'listening is the key' idea... I've been thinking along those lines as well. It may not be the ONLY key on the keyring, but it certainly opens a big lock.

Hmm yeah. Listening is only "the key" when you're already doing a whole bunch of other stuff ... I think it's "the key" to this mythical jump from being an expert technical patternmonkey or shinemonkey to actually dancing...

I've never not had rhythm, too (um, I think... ) so I find it incredibly hard to answer "how do you KNOW that is the 1?". I went to a timing class that really fascinated me: the way to separate the 1 and the 5, we were told, was to listen to the montuno. The montuno , though cyclic and playing on all the beats, "starts" on the 1... The reason I find this fascinating is that that explanation actually worked for some people... but if I was asked to explain how you can tell where the montuno starts without refering to the beat, well, I'm stuck!

I think the secret to learning to listen is in the frame of mind. You have to anticipate, guess, and search. Bet yourself that something will happen given the evidence you've spotted so far, and see whether you were right. If you were, well done you! If not, well done the musicians!

The person who wants to know "the rule" for determining the beat is not asking a reasonable question and is trying to fit listening into a box that's too small for it!

[africana]

yeah been there, done that. I suppose if this stuff was easy we wouldn't be talking about it ;)
Dance moves alone are not enough to dance. That noise in the background is called music and you have to blend with it.
Damn, I can't fit that on a T-shirt. :lol:
nice.

[africana]

I've never not had rhythm, too (um, I think... ) so I find it incredibly hard to answer "how do you KNOW that is the 1?". I went to a timing class that really fascinated me: the way to separate the 1 and the 5, we were told, was to listen to the montuno. The montuno , though cyclic and playing on all the beats, "starts" on the 1... The reason I find this fascinating is that that explanation actually worked for some people... but if I was asked to explain how you can tell where the montuno starts without refering to the beat, well, I'm stuck! Mike Bello does some very in depth seminar where he explains the instruments and songs like this but much of the material went over my head, so many details, it's easier for me to use my "instincts" as well. But I'd buy his material if I needed it, very thorough stuff

[azzey]

It's hard to learn how to perceive something... That's essentially the problem we're facing with teaching musicality. I've been thinking about pushing "listening" as being the KEY to dancing well... listening to the music and to the partner, whether you are lead or follow. But listening to the music is so-much percent anticipation too... very tricky to explain to the "deaf"...





Perhaps you're approaching it from the wrong angle.. "explaining" music is like trying to see chocolate. However get them to taste it and open up their senses, then maybe they'll want to try more.

One way I've used before that works well is playing the "salsa air guitar" while sitting next to someone who wants to learn. Everybody finds it easy to tap along to a rhythm that someone else is tapping...

The way this works is at some dramatic piece in the music I drum the air with my hands and hit an imaginery cymbal, or play along a music piano (montuno) until the sequence repeats (after the 8th beat) and my hand slides back to the first note, then pause when there's a silence before the next musical phrase.. bum ba tah bah pa ta

What's needed is for the student to recognise individual musical rhythms they're hearing, synchronise with them, interpret them, reflect them back then improvise and eventually predict what's coming up. All this can be accomplished using an air guitar and is much easier to do than dancing to the music!

That's the next step..

[salsabor]

musicality is everything in any dance.. the more you know about the music, its break, and timing.. the better execution, expression, and connection you will have with it and your partner.

[sweavo]

the "salsa air guitar"

haha, great concept! From time to time I take cowbells, bongos and shakers out to the local salsa practice sessions and some of the interested dancers have a go and I show them some of the rhythmic elements. I like the airguitar idea because it doesn't put the other dancers off when someone plays out of time!

But to teach a class that way... I think they would want their money back!

[squirrel]

Why want their money back???

[sweavo]

Why want their money back???

Because most of them will not feel they have learned something, and will not have perceived the behaviour of the teacher (me) as being serious or even rational. It takes a particular frame of mind and repeated exposure for that stuff to start to work on you.

"He was supposed to teach us salsa but he just put on a song and mimed to it like an idiot"

[devane]

Why want their money back???

It depends on the person. Some people are quite happy blindly copying sequences without explanation or theory. Some people but fewer have no problem learning the basic (mambo step) over a few weeks, at the same time learning how to move correctly(hips, posture), learning the relationship between the steps and the music.
This can be a gamble for instructers who know that this could loose students who just want to be entertained, especially beginners.
The learning the right way method has to be presented carefully.
My own instructer told me this who used to teach in Brazil the slow way.
This way it meant that Styling and Musicality were not "additional concepts", they are "basic concepts". So pattern monkies were not existant.

ps
just adding I love the term "pattern monkies". I don't know where I read it but it's really nice.

[azzey]

Because most of them will not feel they have learned something, and will not have perceived the behaviour of the teacher (me) as being serious or even rational. It takes a particular frame of mind and repeated exposure for that stuff to start to work on you.

"He was supposed to teach us salsa but he just put on a song and mimed to it like an idiot"

I disagree as I have found it a very effective tool at teaching. The two key ingrediants here are demonstration (how to magically predict and hit major instruments and accents) and participation (getting them to realise it's not that hard to do). You can explain the breakdown of the musical elements all you like but until they participate in simple rhythmic tasks and enjoy it they'll not progress.

This is exactly along the same lines as SHUT UP AND DANCE. Stop talking about not being any good at salsa and just do the basic!

People pay to learn, if they don't learn they'll definitely want their money back!

BTW, I bought the Mambo Fello's Phrasing and Timing CD's a couple of years ago (after I had spent a lot of my own time working out how to intuitively do it) and it is indeed excellent material to practice from.

[tangotime]

A simple answer to a complex question-- having taught for more yrs than most of you reading this have been alive-- the one thing-- above all others-- that i see on my my travels -- is missing from 98% of " Dancers "--is lack of alma y corazon in their interpretation of any given song-- flash and trash rules-- how sad

[tangotime]

I have a very simple solution and suggestion for you--- If possible- play a track from most any tito rojas album -- after digesting the music -- play-- for example-- deculpe me senora by " Canario "-- if-- after this experience-- you STILL say it all sounds the same-- i suggest you take up Waltz !!!

[esa negrita...]

it's that way for a lot of dancers

for me, the musc just drives me crazy sometimes, it's like a possession, sometimes i feel like i have to keep dancing even if it kills me. I'm serious!
with some songs the intensity just won't let go!! last night I was actually screaming GOD!!! love that feeling!
:lol: those are the times I don't enjoy salsa as a strictly partner dance, cos sometimes the spirit just moves you and only you. Unless you encounter one of those rare partners who gets it too...

I swear it's a drug!

Dude...I was dancing with this one salsero last week to "El Preso"...which I absolutely LOVE...and it took every ounce of my being not to snatch my hands away so I could dance by myself...I was hoping he'd catch some of the more intense moments of the song and want to be free too...but nope...so I decided to just smile and do what I could without disrupting him:rolleyes:

One day though...the musician in me is going to win out over the fledgling dancer...

[devane]

I have a very simple solution and suggestion for you--- If possible- play a track from most any tito rojas album -- after digesting the music -- play-- for example-- deculpe me senora by " Canario "-- if-- after this experience-- you STILL say it all sounds the same-- i suggest you take up Waltz !!!

I love all Jose Alberto's songs :) I have about 6 or 7 of his cd's. One of my first cd's was his.

[tangotime]

have you ever seen him perform ?-- what a truly amazing vocalist--- he really has no equal as far as what he can do-- imitating instruments along with the band !! -- there are others who come close-- willie chirino-- willie crespo-- and the lead singer for niche -- maybe bordering on salsa monga-- but so sweet to listen to -- and of course many great great singers with different styles .

[borikensalsero]

have you ever seen him perform ?-- what a truly amazing vocalist--- he really has no equal as far as what he can do-- imitating instruments along with the band !! -- there are others who come close-- willie chirino-- willie crespo-- and the lead singer for niche -- maybe bordering on salsa monga-- but so sweet to listen to -- and of course many great great singers with different styles .

There is a group of salsaseros I know that would faint if they were to read this. The canario part is all good, but the rest would cause them pain.

[tangotime]

music -- as you know -- is very subjective --am curious why they would re act that way ? ---think i know the answer-- too romantico in their stlye ?-- remember -- we were talking about voices-- not--hard core -- pregunta -- puerto ricano ?

[alemana]

oy.

[borikensalsero]

music -- as you know -- is very subjective --am curious why they would re act that way ? ---think i know the answer-- too romantico in their stlye ?-- remember -- we were talking about voices-- not--hard core -- pregunta -- puerto ricano ?

Not really hardcore, most of my salseros friends think of salsa like me, there are great songs from anywhere and everywhere.

Timbre... they don't really like it... their approach to soneo as well, some actually don't even have one... Also, when they sing their romantica stuff, they don't have the soul that makes one go. Yummmmmm...

[tangotime]

Totally agree-- so much choice -- guess could not live long enough to hear everything ever recorded-- thats why it is so nice to run across something after all these yrs that is new to me -- was listening to an orlando radio station recently ( i am in u.k. at this time teaching ) the music-- was really good--- wish they had something here like same .If you go to salsa jive-- it will take you to posts about many topics-- at the very last post-- you will see a section for favorite songs -- mine is near last and starts with Flex -- not even close to what i really wanted to put but space is somewhat restricted .

[borikensalsero]

mine is near last and starts with Flex -- not even close to what i really wanted to put but space is somewhat restricted .

Now I fully undertand your observations on the previous post...
It was hard to find my way through the site... took me about 20 minutes to find the post.

[tangotime]

Watcha think of the site ?

[yola]

Dude...I was dancing with this one salsero last week to "El Preso"...which I absolutely LOVE...and it took every ounce of my being not to snatch my hands away so I could dance by myself...I was hoping he'd catch some of the more intense moments of the song and want to be free too...but nope...so I decided to just smile and do what I could without disrupting him:rolleyes:

One day though...the musician in me is going to win out over the fledgling dancer... Like the advice queen Victoria gave to her daughter on her wedding night: close your eyes and think of England....:shock:
Ah, when will (some) salseros learn that dancing, like so many other things, is more fun when both enjoy it?
And when will some (some) salseras learn that the guys. like in so many things, will not knów what is possible, unless we show them or tell them?

[tangotime]

Yo sabe !! ,por fin se supo el, secreto , tambien ?

[LatinDancer006]

This is a great topic. But while there are numerous complains that too many people in the salsa community place more focus on complicated patterns and technique than on musicality, I've yet to see discussions of musicality in terms of what each movement expresses or what each sequence or combination of moves is appropriate or inappropriate at a particular part of a song. We've been taught tools like basic steps, CBL, cross over breaks, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, Nth positions, right turns, left turns, multiple turns, Cumbia steps, suzie q's, etc.. and we've been taught combination of the aforemention, but we haven't really been taught how to use them. i.e. with a song that starts out soft and calm and gradually crescendoing into a more rhytmically complicated chorus or the body of the song, it is inappropriate (this is prob not a good word) to execute a complicated set of sequences of fast footwork and spins at the beginning. Rather, you'd want to start with something simple and build up to more complicated squence. I know there many variables involve, but I'd like to hear from you, esp. the salsa teachers, how you'd teach musicality. Pick a particular part of a song, any song. Describe what sequence or movement would go well with that part and what would not in your opinion. Let's see if you could put it in words.

[yippee1999]

To try and answer your question Latindancer, I'm not a choreographer or dance teacher, but I've always felt I had natural "choreography" type skills. :-) When I dance to songs at home, I seem to think like a choreographer (or so I believe)! I always apply certain moves and speeds to different parts of a song.

You are right in that many salsa songs may start out slow, or slower, and so the movements should correspond with that. I feel that the most rapid parts of a salsa song are best for the intricate, fast turn patterns, or else for a couple to do a simultaneous shines routine.

There's a song I like alot.... "Estoy enamorado d'una chica, si pero no, d'una chica, si pero nooooo". Then there's a part of the song ... I guess you'd call it a refrain... where they say "no pero si", "si pero no", etc. And I was visualizing that for that part of the song, in a performance, it would be nice for the couple to be facing each other holding hands, and to separate one hand only and turn away from each other in a dramatic fashion at the word "no", and then to act like they've changed their minds, and that they DO want to be together, at the word "si", and to then face each other again and hold hands. You know... the whole "no pero si, si pero no" thing..... Naturally I don't think they should repeat that for the entire refrain, but just one or two times so that they are physically showing the ambivalence that is being talked about in the song.

I don't know if that helps in explaining how I personally look at songs. I guess for me, songs can often be looked at or danced to in parts. Some parts have a silly feel to them and call for more lighthearted steps. Some parts are intense and fast paced and call for more rapid fire dancing. But you also have to look at the song overall. A song like "Coco".... "a mi me gusta el coco".... to me, that's sort of a silly, light-hearted song ... I mean, a song about what is your favorite fruit? I would never expect to see rapid fire dancing to a song like that. For me, that song would be more appropriate for a more casual level or speed of dancing. But then you take a song like "Fuego a la Jicotea", and overall, it's a much "stronger" song, which for me would mean more serious type dancing, with stronger moves and lines.

There are some songs where, at the end of a verse, I feel it needs a certain emphasis or move, and so I might stomp my foot down very hard on the floor, sort of like a flamenco type "stomp". Then there are some points where I feel there is a bit of a lull between the lines of a song, and where both lines are somewhat slow or "dreamy", and so to "connect" the two lines, I might drag my leg around to the side and then to the back, somewhat slowly, sort of in a jazzy or ballet-type way, and then pick right up again with more salsa-type moves.

[salsamale]

A song like "Coco".... "a mi me gusta el coco".... to me, that's sort of a silly, light-hearted song ... I mean, a song about what is your favorite fruit?

Sometimes I am doing a move while dancing salsa, and I think to myself, "I sure hope this song isn't about my favourite fruit" :).

[tangotime]

Will agree-- it,s a very good q. Nearly impossible to delineate in the written word. Reason--there are several moves in certain dances ,that are possibly " established " moves, but again , very subjective, and a personal choice. Having said that . there are passages in music that require interpretation, so as to rhythmically stay within those musical boundaries. There is a classic example in salsa, where for 4 bars, sometimes more, the majority of the band, give way to male chorus,( no lead vocal ) base, conga and clave . The term used by teachers from way back was " Swing Mambo " , and a defined move was generally danced.
Today, this is now commonly danced as a time step ( an in place movement ) There are several more examples, but , from my experience, it is nigh impossible to generalise, as each song" speaks " to me , with a new meaning.
In my classes,I eventually demo. examples to different songs but always with the proviso that it is MY interpretation and only illustrates a point .

From a teaching viewpoint, this is something that can take a long time to develop, and in many cases, never will; most students, are happy to be able to dance on time and execute sequences fluidly , and the more in depth learning is chosen by the very few ( sadly )

[nikita]

Some while ago I was watching an On2 workshop. The teacher said, that On1 we are more "on" the music, while dancing On2 we are more "in" the music.
Given that, a fullfilling interpretion of the music, dancing On1, is quite complicated:p. CBL-spin-CBL-spin-CBL...:confused: