Independent vs. Chain Studios [Archive]

Fretful_Porpentine

10-16-2005, 10:23 PM

So....I went to a dance party last night at a studio other than my own. It's independent, and a lot of people (after they asked me where I took lessons) proceeded to belittle my studio (which is a franchise). Basically, I was told that my studio was only after my money, that I wouldn't learn the right steps or styles, and that my teachers probably weren't qualified. Is any of this true? I like my instructor and he seems competent to me. I'm learning and I'm enjoying class. Lessons are expensive, but I get free group classes and parties, so it really only works out to 12-15 dollars an hour.
Would I really be better off at an independent studio, or was this a sales gimmick?

lynn

10-16-2005, 10:29 PM

Hmm, i remember there were tons of thread about chained vs. franchised studios - perhaps you can search for keywords "franchise studio"??

As far as the sales gimmick go - i think it really varies studio by studio. There are bad chain studios but there are also bad independent studios. I think you're the best judge of the situation. If you feel you're getting your money's worth, then by all means, it's worth it.

lynn

10-16-2005, 10:38 PM

Oh, i forgot to mention. One of the reason why franchised studios get such a bad rep is b/c they charge extremely high prices but sometimes the teachers are very unqualified (as in only been dancing a few months) - but according to the $ you quoted, i don't think you're in that boat.

These are a couple i've found, but there are tons more (sorry, i'm just too lazy copying & pasting all the links) but the bottom line really is every studio is different and as a customer, we should keep an objective and open mind.

Franchise or Independent Studios? http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=4952

Independent Studios http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=1523

Franchise Thread -- One More Time! http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=1006

Franchise Deception or Truth? http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=3968

What kind of dance studio? http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=3586

Contracts -- Yes or No? http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=4007

Chris Stratton

10-16-2005, 10:44 PM

In the end what it really comes down to is the value of specific teacher you are working with.

Pretty much all of what the chains claim as advantages are pure marketing mumble or advantages for them rather than for you, but it's not necessary to go beyond ignoring it - there are some good people in them and if you can work with them at reasonable rates and terms and learn common material, there's no reason not to do so. But there are also very good people outside of the chains, and if you prefer to work with one of them, or find it a better value or terms (no or short package to get the best rate), then that might be your best option.

That a studio is a chain franchise provides no advantage to the student, but beyond any difference in pricing and policies it shouldn't be held against teachers who happen to work there either.

lynn

10-16-2005, 10:50 PM

actually, i think the only advantage of chain studio is that the contract is transferable - meaning if you sign up for a block of lessons and do not finish, you're allowed to take the remaining classes in another studio under the same name. But then again, i would almost always oppose to sign up for large blocks of lessons - cost is one thing, another thing is you really don't know what'll happen in the future - maybe your instructor will leave the studio, maybe there will be something in your personal life...etc..etc...etc

I don't know this for sure, i think it's one of the things mentioned in one of those franchise vs. non-franchise debates....

Indiana_Jay

10-16-2005, 11:38 PM

My lovely wife and I take lessons at another branch of the same chain that Fretful uses. We've been going there since last July. Before we started, we auditioned two other studios, both independents. One had nicer facilities, but the instructor was very green and seemed to be a "one trick pony." By that I mean she seemed to know only one way to teach everything and seemed unable to adapt her instruction to our needs. The more experienced instructors were booked up. At the other studio, the facilties were not quite as nice and the instructor seemed adequate. But we were most impressed with the instructor at the chain and that's where we landed.

Now, after several weeks of lessons, here's what we've decided. In our town, the chain studio is the "Cadillac." It's slightly more expensive than the other options, but the service is top notch. Our instructor is a former competitor who is a great dancer and a great instructor. The franchise is owned by a couple who compete in Pro American Smooth and do pretty well. They, too, are excellent instructors. They seem to understand our goals (we have no intention of competing) and designed a program to meet them. We've never felt any pressure sales tactics.

In short, we're happy with our studio and suspect that anyone who might criticize it is not as familiar with the place as we are. That might also be the case with the people who criticized Fretful's studio.

Unfortunately, although we feel we're getting our money's worth, we probably won't have the resources to continue with the "Cadillac" studio indefinately. We might end up going over the the "Buick" later, where we can buy some classes "ala carte" and cut back on the private lessons to save money.

It seems to me that the only way Fretful can get a good idea of whether another studio would be better for her is to try out the other studio. But if she has the money, is happy with the value she's getting and especially with the progress she's making, I don't see any reason for her to worry about it.

-IJ

liangjz

10-17-2005, 01:10 AM

Pretty much all of what the chains claim as advantages are pure marketing mumble or advantages for them rather than for you

I've known some people who taught at chain studios and I indirectly know one who used to own one.

I agree with Chris that all the supposed advantages of chains are BS.
Personally, I've never had a positive experience or known of a positive experience at a chain.(Some people were happy, but they weren't any good)
From what I've seen, the main advantage you get for being a chain is that the name of your studio will be mentioned on TV and in movies because they pay for advertising, sometimes on a very grand scale. The disadvantage, from an owners perspective is that the franchise takes a large sum of money from you(the owner).

I'm not going to be expressing my opinion today about the quality of instruction, but consider some facts about one popular chain, <EDITED>. They're everywhere. Small towns, big cities, whatever. I'll bet that almost no one living in the US on this forum is somewhere far from an <EDITED> studio. If you walk into them, they'll almost certainly claim they can teach you latins, smooths, lindy, tango, night-club, country,..whatever. Where do all their instructors come from? It is a fact that many of their instructors get paid less than burger flippers at McDonald's(I have friends who are burger flippers and I have friends who are former <EDITED> teachers) Do you wonder how much training they get?
Supposedly, ALL <EDITED> studios are held to the "highest standards". Hm...

Here's my advice. Go to your instructor at this studio and ask him/her to recommend some non-franchise alternates to take lessons from. If he/she gives you some line like,
"It's rude/counterproductive for a student to go to more than one instructor/studio because it's deviating from the plan the original instructor had or confusing for the student or conflicting styles .. bla bla bla", it might be a hint of something bad.

In any case, try other instructors and see if you like them. Seek out some advice from some people whose dancing you admire or just go look around. If, after trying various instructors, you find that you really do prefer the one you're with now, then ball means, stay. It would be sad to stick with your current studio if the only reason is that you haven't tried all of the other ones in town.

As a closing note, how many people know of non-franchise studios/instructors who have tried to convince students to morgage their house to pay for more lessons? I don't know any, but I DO know a franchise instructor who tried.

liangjz

10-17-2005, 01:31 AM

Here are a few indications, in my jaded opinion, of studios that may be dishonest, franchise or non-franchise.

- They discourage or try to limit the amount of dancing their students do
at events not held/controlled by that studio. (dances/competitions/etc..)

- Discourage/limit exposure of students to non-studio or non-affiliated
instructors.

- Never/seldom mention outside dance resources such as night clubs,
dance conventions, non-studio parties, etc..

Of course, a really obvious one is if their students aren't as good as students from other instructors. That wouldn't mean they're dishonst, but it might mean they're just not as good of instructors. Obviously, there are exceptions, but if there is a general trend of better dancing from a different instructor/studio, you may want to ask why...

macha

10-17-2005, 02:34 AM

You run into that a lot- theirs is ALWAYS better than yours, be it studio, stable, grocer, proctologist, whatever.

Do I go to a franchise studio? No- but hey, newbie that I am, if that was nearer than the one I have (and love), I'd probably have wound up there.

Have I noticed a difference in independent and franchise studio dancers? YES- but not a "good/bad" kind of difference- just "hm, just doesn't look the same way- let's try it sometime".

Besides that, like any of those assholes running you and your studio down are qualified. If they were, they'd have their own studios instead of going to someone else's. Screw them and the shoes they danced in on.

If you like what you're learning, how you're learning, (what you're paying, when you go, etc. etc. etc.) then it isn't their problem, is it? Stick with what works best for you, not someone else.

Granted, I'm a newbie, but, based on what I've been exposed to so far, I love our independent studio. Things are very warm, welcoming, laid-back, easy-going, and I've found fault with nothing yet. Jack goes a little fast in group classes- that makes me nervy- BUT it isn't something that can't be fixed. All we have to do is go up to him after class (or whenever, actually) and say "Look- we just didn't get that in class... here's what we know, could you help us fix the rest?" And if he doesn't, someone will.

The teachers at the McStudio (The Bad One- it just happens to have been a chain before it went independent, and soon defunct) were rude, exclusivist, and had a really crappy establishment- as in an old factory building with some wood tiles stuck together over concrete, and it was next to a busy set of traintracks. So, not only were their attitudes not amenable, but neither were their facilities.

The "top-notch" chain studio down town has a good facility, a long list of competitors who work with Medieros in TN, bla bla bla.... but they still have their dances at the community center.

I like ours. It's working for us. That's JUST based on what we've seen so far, and I'm NOT saying that it couldn't change or whatever. Someone else might NOT like it- and for example, I heard someone say "well, yours is more ballroom, and ours is more nightclub"... so no, ours WOULDN'T suit them better.

"To each his own, so long as they allll agree with me :D" (not)

Indiana_Jay

10-17-2005, 06:55 AM

Here are a few indications, in my jaded opinion, of studios that may be dishonest, franchise or non-franchise.

- They discourage or try to limit the amount of dancing their students do at events not held/controlled by that studio. (dances/competitions/etc..)

The chain studio that my wife and I use encourages competition in events not affiliated with the chain. One of our fellow students won her Pro/Am class last August at the NDCA Capital Dancesport event in D.C.

- Never/seldom mention outside dance resources such as night clubs, dance conventions, non-studio parties, etc.

The instructors at our chain studio always promote the monthly dances of the local USA Dance (USABDA) chapter. They also have an area where they post information about every ballroom dance in the area.

Just goes to reinforce the idea that one should not generalize too much about any type of studio.

-IJ

fascination

10-17-2005, 07:19 AM

IMO? if you are competitive it all boils down for me to "do they have one good pro and by good I mean good teacher, good person and good dancer" who can get me where I want to be if I cooperate.....the rest, I could not care less where he teaches

saludas

10-17-2005, 08:05 AM

You run into that a lot- theirs is ALWAYS better than yours, be it studio, stable, grocer, proctologist, whatever.

Besides that, like any of those assholes running you and your studio down are qualified. If they were, they'd have their own studios instead of going to someone else's. Screw them and the shoes they danced in on.

If you like what you're learning, how you're learning, (what you're paying, when you go, etc. etc. etc.) then it isn't their problem, is it? Stick with what works best for you, not someone else.

Granted, I'm a newbie, but, based on what I've been exposed to so far, I love our independent studio.

Sorta...

I think a new person in any area has little or no idea what is good, what 'works for them', and even what they 'like' - they only know what they know.

I'd really hate to make a decision about buying a car, for instance, having never driven one ever - or having only driven one, for a few weeks or months, and then decide that it has everything 'correct'. It's like little children who 'hate' broccoli having never tried it, or people who like a teacher because they are praised or they think that they are 'learning' so much.

I also think that people who come up to you and say things like ''look out for xxx studio' are trying to give a real, friendly 'look out' warning that is usually misunderstood by newbies as highschool quality 'mine's better 'n your'n' but in reality can easily also be the wise words of someone who has the 'bigger picture'.

I think that a dance education also very early on includes things that are not easily liked or understood, that are difficult and frustrating, but necessary, andy many newbies confuse the ramp up of difficulty with a negative view of the teacher or school, when they should realize that with effort comes quality, and that you can't 'sugarcoat' the effort needed by the student.

Finally, I thnk that perspective is one of the biggest 'results' that are achieved in dance... and it takes years not weeks or months...

:o)

redhead

10-17-2005, 08:22 AM

As a closing note, how many people know of non-franchise studios/instructors who have tried to convince students to morgage their house to pay for more lessons? I don't know any, but I DO know a franchise instructor who tried.

Sadly, I do.
That just proves the point - not all franchises are bad and not all independent studios are good.
I've seen "6-week wonders" at that same independent studio too - only they were more like 3.5 week wonders.

Chris Stratton

10-17-2005, 08:53 AM

I really think the difference that matters is the type of instruction being pursued. Amateur competition couples tend to derive the best value from their money anywhere, with social pro/am being the worst deal and competition pro/am somewhere in between - in large part this corresponds to the sophistication and independence of the student as a dancer and informed consumer. With the chain studios being expertly set up to handle the higher price/lower value parts of the business, its no suprise that they tend to be associated with many of the stories of outrageous situations, but they have no monopoly on such occurances. At the other end of the spectrum, competition couples and seriously competitive pro/am students tend to pick a specific individual teacher and go where they teach, rather than pick a studio and select from it's teachers - as result, the name on the door is almost completely unimportant.

Fretful_Porpentine

10-17-2005, 09:00 AM

Here's sort of what I observed:

At my (chain) studio, there is not a great deal of syllabus teaching. For instance, I haven't officially completed Bronze 1 yet, but I've already learned steps from higher levels of Bronze, and even a few from Silver. On the other hand, there seems to be a lot more concentration on technique (posture, frame, cuban motion, the "rise and fall" of waltz, etc) than at the other studio. Many of the people I saw dancing there, who had been dancing longer than me, did not seem to have learned any of that yet. However, they had learned the steps in order, and I was caught off guard when people tried to lead simple steps that I had never learned.

I'm thinking maybe I'll go in for a group class or two, and see how I like it. But I'll still continue at my normal studio.

Chris Stratton

10-17-2005, 09:07 AM

However, they had learned the steps in order, and I was caught off guard when people tried to lead simple steps that I had never learned.

Eiither they are being taught unleadable material or not learning how to lead it (most likely) or your studio's technique approach doesn't include development of following skills (less likely).

You shouldn't need to know the material they are dancing, just be familiar with the vocabulary of dance actions it is made from.

Fretful_Porpentine

10-17-2005, 09:12 AM

Haha, well, the following thing is my fault. I'm not a very good follower at all....I'm always anticipating the lead. But I'm gradually being broken of the habit, so I doubt it's my instructor's fault.

dTas

10-17-2005, 11:08 AM

i think you have to look at what you are trying to get out of your dancing when deciding what kind of studio to go to.

to me the main difference between a chain and independant studio is the price per private hour (not group, not practice party). look at the straight out price per private hour.

from my experience after teaching in 2 chain studios and 2 independant studios.. the main thing that chains have going for them is the price per private/group/party which averages the price per hour way down!

independants tend to sell per private hour and then per group session/class. its more ala-cart. if... you intend to do most of your learning via group classes and also go to a lot of practice parties then chain studios are a great value. but... if you want to have more privates,don't find value in a lot of group classes and dance at many different venues then an independant studio would probably fit you better.

saludas

10-17-2005, 11:45 AM

i think you have to look at what you are trying to get out of your dancing when deciding what kind of studio to go to.

independants tend to sell per private hour and then per group session/class. its more ala-cart. if... you intend to do most of your learning via group classes and also go to a lot of practice parties then chain studios are a great value. but... if you want to have more privates,don't find value in a lot of group classes and dance at many different venues then an independant studio would probably fit you better.

This assumes that they quality of the lessons in group and privates are equal...

dTas

10-17-2005, 11:57 AM

yes, i am assuming that the quality of the privates in one studio is equal to the quality in the other and the quality of the groups between studios is the same as well.

but then of course you can always go around looking for group classes anywhere, with other studios (independant or franchise), or in other places like community colleges, dance groups, conventions, etc. etc.

which really brings be back to privates again. since you can go anywhere for groups classes and can dance in all sorts of places the real deciding factor is the quality and price of the private lesson.

of course there's also service. getting good service is definitely worth something.

saludas

10-17-2005, 12:01 PM

lynn

10-17-2005, 12:04 PM

dTas makes a very good point - assuming the quality is the same (which is a big assumption, btw), it really comes down to how each person make use of the group classes.

On average, i take about 3-4 group classes a week, @ $10-15/class, if i add up the $ i spend @ the independent studio per week, it's pretty close to what i would spend if i were to go to a franchised studio.

P.S. Service is also a big selling point. Franchised environment almost always tend to be more friendly. I've been to a franchised party once and despite the fact that i was (and still am) very green and couldn't dance even if i were lead by a world pro, none of the people/instructor i danced with complained. The independent studio i go to have excellent instructors, but b/c they are independent, they do not attend practice parties so unless i'm a terrific dancer or if i'm very acquainted with the fellow students, it's difficult "breaking the ice", so to speak. Obviously, there's always the argument of social vs. competitive aspect, but i think that's a totally different discussion altogether.

lynn

10-17-2005, 12:09 PM

Good service should be defined. Is it all about phone massage? Or is it about clean bathrooms?

My feeling is that beginners need lots of amenities, while competitors tend to ignore those things in favor of the lesson itself. Reason being, the 'experience' is paramount for beginners (they need reassurance, they need to feel that the expereince is worth the $$s, etc) - not that clean bathrooms are not a definite plus lol....

This is absolutely true - when i first started, this is exactly how i felt - i needed constant encouragement from my teacher and i needed everyone who danced with me to tell me how much i've improved. Receiving a compliment is always a plus, but @ least now i'm comfortable enough to know that i don't need that constant reassurance from the teacher.

Fretful_Porpentine

10-17-2005, 12:13 PM

Well, I think I'll go try a group lesson at the independent studio. The rates are really good for teenagers. The problem is, once you start private lessons, the cost jumps a LOT, and you still have to pay for group lessons and parties. I pay half the cost for my dance lessons, and when you make minimum wage EVERYTHING is expensive. :(
Even though private lessons at the chain studio are just as costly, I get the free groups and parties (which I go to nearly every night, so on a per hour basis it's really not bad).

macha

10-17-2005, 12:21 PM

I also think that people who come up to you and say things like ''look out for xxx studio' are trying to give a real, friendly 'look out' warning that is usually misunderstood by newbies as highschool quality 'mine's better 'n your'n' but in reality can easily also be the wise words of someone who has the 'bigger picture'.

Not surprised- I knew there'd be at least one.

I should clarify that we know the difference between gossip and healthy caution. One doesn't have to be a "dancer" at a "studio" to know this. I'm not wasting time dishing out the entire circumstance/scenario, but thanks anyways. Point understood.

Chris Stratton

10-17-2005, 12:24 PM

saludas

10-17-2005, 12:31 PM

dTas

10-17-2005, 12:37 PM

you can also look at quality vs hours...

which is better 5 hrs of so-so group lessons a week or 1 hour of excellent private instruction?

of course that is assuming that a group lesson is 20% of the quality of a private lesson (or what ever your situation may be)

for me i get private coaching twice a year (if i'm lucky). i use video, study up for my coaching, and make sure both me and my partner are there. we try to get the most of every coaching hour we get and then practice, practice, practice.

we practice about 50 hrs to every 1 coaching hr. unfortunately we only get about 4 or 5 coaching hrs a year. mostly of the time we have to coach each other.

lynn

10-17-2005, 12:38 PM

Don't overlook the difference between paying for dance experience and paying for dance instruction. Practice parties, (and in some cases group classes) are mostly about experience though there can be a little instruction too. Experience is extremely important, but hopefully as a dancer advances less of the experience will have to be paid for, or be paid for only at floor-fee rates.

Well put.

Lynn, are you saying that 'service' is the 'friendly-ness'?

In those cases, it would always seem that the bigger chains would be top rated at this, since that is what they sell ("anyone can learn to dance"). Most 'more serious' studios value efficiency rather than the slower, more gentle 'comfort zone' attitude of the chain experience...

Perhaps it's simply that as a dancer progresses, his/her needs change?

Yes, friendliness is part of what i consider good service. As a total newbie, i valued the "social atmosphere" way more than whether or not my instructor was a world class pro. But as people get more serious about dancing, we tend to overlook the service factor because we value the time/experience of our instructor. If my teacher wants to re-schedule on me the last minute, that's fine b/c i value her time way more!

Chris Stratton

10-17-2005, 12:38 PM

Both "serious" and "comfort zone" can have a second meaning.

Sometimes "comfort zone" basically means an environment where people are comfortable, but comfortable with both low pressure to advance and with receiving little instructional support or information about the things that would make advancement possible.

"serious" can feel high pressure and in a way unsupported, but what it ideally means is that the actual teaching provides the kind of precise and accurate information that would make impressive progress possible. "Serious" should be about providing the tools necessary to learn to dance.

Of course it's also possible to have a highly serious attitude about information that is not helpful...

Fretful_Porpentine

10-17-2005, 12:43 PM

I suppose the problem is that I'm too much of a beginner to know a good studio from a bad one. A few people compete at my studio, mostly in pro/am, and they tend to do pretty well. At the independent studio, more people seem to compete, especially since they sponsor a college dance team. Also, the instructors are world-class. I felt kind of intimidated at the party, though, and I really don't like feeling intimidated.

fascination

10-17-2005, 12:55 PM

Fretful_Porpentine

10-17-2005, 12:59 PM

Well thank you, Eleanor Roosevelt. :D

If it's any comfort, the fact that I feel intimidated won't stop me from going back.

fascination

10-17-2005, 01:07 PM

Well thank you, Eleanor Roosevelt. :D

If it's any comfort, the fact that I feel intimidated won't stop me from going back.sorry didnt mean to sound like an old prune...I still struggle with the same thing in fact.....and remind myself of what I shared with you...you have a right to be there...your dime is as good as anyone else's...hug

fascination

10-17-2005, 01:10 PM

btw..if you are referring to a similiarity in looks Im gonna have to take you out to the woodshed :wink:

Fretful_Porpentine

10-17-2005, 01:11 PM

Hahaha, not at all! Only in wisdom.... :D
I'm all antsy this week anyway. College applications are due and I have my first dance showcase coming up....aaaagh!
:shock:

liangjz

10-17-2005, 03:25 PM

Just goes to reinforce the idea that one should not generalize too much about any type of studio.

-IJ

Well, that's why I wrote "franchise or non-franchise".
Generalizations don't always apply, but they can help. If they always applied, we could practically call it a law of nature.

I don't think a single example can invalidate a generalization. If I could see a trend, then yes. In any case, at no point did I say that franchises are all bad, but I did advise caution.

Chris Stratton

10-17-2005, 03:57 PM

Well thank you, Eleanor Roosevelt.

Speaking of which, in "No Ordinary Time" it is related how during the war Eleanor's friend, ballroom dancer Mayris Chaney was a physical education instructor in the office of civil defense... until congress decided to express frustration with Eleanor's projects by specifically prohibiting the funding of "instruction in physical fitness by dancers"

I wonder if that's still on the books?

Fretful_Porpentine

10-17-2005, 04:04 PM

There are all these ridiculous laws on the books...in Indiana it's illegal to have a lemonade stand next to your driveway. So I've been a criminal since about the age of four.

liangjz

10-17-2005, 05:52 PM

tanya_the_dancer

10-17-2005, 06:06 PM

Here are a few indications, in my jaded opinion, of studios that may be dishonest, franchise or non-franchise.

- They discourage or try to limit the amount of dancing their students do
at events not held/controlled by that studio. (dances/competitions/etc..)

- Discourage/limit exposure of students to non-studio or non-affiliated
instructors.

- Never/seldom mention outside dance resources such as night clubs,
dance conventions, non-studio parties, etc..

This is interesting. In our town there are basically 2 dance studios. One studio is guilty of #1 and #3, and now from what I've heard from people who still go there, also of #2. There is a whole saga behind this, but I don't have time to write it now.

liangjz

10-17-2005, 08:42 PM

There are all these ridiculous laws on the books...in Indiana it's illegal to have a lemonade stand next to your driveway. So I've been a criminal since about the age of four.

Business in a residential zone?

lynn

10-17-2005, 08:45 PM

lemonade stand = cash business?? tax evasion may be of a concern here....

Fretful_Porpentine

10-17-2005, 09:48 PM

So that's why I'm being audited......
:lol:

sunderi

10-19-2005, 01:12 PM

I'm trying REALLY hard not to get wrapped up in all of this (because this is one of the issues on which I tend to write prolifically) but I will make a few quick points:

Here's my advice. Go to your instructor at this studio and ask him/her to recommend some non-franchise alternates to take lessons from. If he/she gives you some line like,
"It's rude/counterproductive for a student to go to more than one instructor/studio because it's deviating from the plan the original instructor had or confusing for the student or conflicting styles .. bla bla bla", it might be a hint of something bad.

I am a chain instructor. I have never, EVER, to a student, badmouthed instruction they were getting elsewhere. Ever. (No matter how crappy that instruction might have been.) That said, however, I'm also not going to *recommend* that they take lessons from a competing studio. They're more than welcome to do so, but frankly, that takes business away from me, and if that's something they want to do, they can do the homework on their own time. I don't think that makes me a bad instructor.

As a closing note, how many people know of non-franchise studios/instructors who have tried to convince students to morgage their house to pay for more lessons? I don't know any, but I DO know a franchise instructor who tried.

I don't know of any instructor (personally) who has ever recommended this, franchise or not. I *do* know of a few students who have done this, for whatever reason, but I've never heard (personally) of an instructor recommending this (but I've heard lots of "so-and-so said this happened to them").

lynn

10-19-2005, 01:21 PM

I am a chain instructor. I have never, EVER, to a student, badmouthed instruction they were getting elsewhere. Ever. (No matter how crappy that instruction might have been.) That said, however, I'm also not going to *recommend* that they take lessons from a competing studio. They're more than welcome to do so, but frankly, that takes business away from me, and if that's something they want to do, they can do the homework on their own time. I don't think that makes me a bad instructor.

I can see from a business perspective why instructors (independent or chain) are reluctant to recommend other instructors/studios - it's one thing to criticize and yet it's something else to give the students away to the competition. The only times i've seen businesses recommend their competitor is only if they were unable to service the customer - but that's a whole other topic.

dTas

10-19-2005, 01:41 PM

i have had lots of students come and go and even some who have asked about instruction elsewhere. not because i couldn't service them but because of geography. sometimes it was because i'm an independant and the student was looking for a place that had groups and parties.

i'm more than happy to recommend people to ther places because sooner or later it comes back around to me. a student will go out to that studio and tell them about where they've been learning and then i get a call for a private lesson. its great!

all in all... i want to people to keep dancing. where they dance is of no matter as long as they keep doing it. if i treat them right then in their "advantures" they talk about me and i get a call. if you keep a good name for yourself, respect your customer, and provide an honest service then eventually you will be "successful".

people will just come to you because they value what you provide for them.

liangjz

10-21-2005, 11:30 PM

I'm also not going to *recommend* that they take lessons from a competing studio. They're more than welcome to do so, but frankly, that takes business away from me, and if that's something they want to do, they can do the homework on their own time.

Let me give a concrete example then. When I first moved to New Mexico, I signed up with Arthur Murray's because they had an instructor with more credentials than anyone else I had found. AFTER I joined, I asked several of the instructors to recommend a place I could go dancing. I felt that the 1-hour every Friday "practice parties" just weren't enough. Please keep in mind that I was a paying customer at the time. I specifically asked for anywhere in town that I could to ballroom, swing, salsa, whatever. All of them claimed that they knew nothing.

Undaunted, I searched the web and tapped some resources to find a local salsa club. You can imagine my surprise when I arrived to find 4 Arthur Murray dancing instructors there. Appearantly they hang out there. Business or no, I felt betrayed.

That was one of the many reasons that I quickly quit Arthur Murray's without even completing the lessons that I had paid for.

SDsalsaguy

10-22-2005, 04:18 AM

That is fairly low liangjz; I'd feel betrayed too. :evil:

sunderi

10-25-2005, 10:41 AM

Let me give a concrete example then. When I first moved to New Mexico, I signed up with Arthur Murray's because they had an instructor with more credentials than anyone else I had found. AFTER I joined, I asked several of the instructors to recommend a place I could go dancing. I felt that the 1-hour every Friday "practice parties" just weren't enough. Please keep in mind that I was a paying customer at the time. I specifically asked for anywhere in town that I could to ballroom, swing, salsa, whatever. All of them claimed that they knew nothing.

Undaunted, I searched the web and tapped some resources to find a local salsa club. You can imagine my surprise when I arrived to find 4 Arthur Murray dancing instructors there. Appearantly they hang out there. Business or no, I felt betrayed.

That was one of the many reasons that I quickly quit Arthur Murray's without even completing the lessons that I had paid for.

Aha! This, I think I can explain. ;)

It's not that they were trying to keep you from dancing elsewhere -- it's because they didn't want their hangout spot overrun by students. Because of the non-fraternization policy that AM has for their instructors, they probably aren't ALLOWED to continue hanging out & dancing there once a bunch of students show up. So, they were probably more protecting their favorite salsa spot than trying to force you to only dance at their parties.

Whether you agree with it or not, I do that, too. I have been in many situations where students arrive at our favorite dance spots and make it impossible for us to continue dancing there ourselves. Whether it's because they won't respect the fact that we have a seriously inforced non-fraternization clause, or just because they won't respect our wishes to NOT be monopolized by dancing with students while we're out with our friends and significant others, we've often had to abandon favorite dancing locales once they're discovered by students. So, I have to say that I believe the motivation for them not sharing their hangout with you was probably more personally motivated than financially motivated. (But I can't say for sure.) I know, though, that when my students ask about good places to go out dancing, I never mention my favorite places. If they are going to find out about them, I let them do it on their own.

dTas

10-25-2005, 10:54 AM

sunderi

10-25-2005, 11:07 AM

i just don't dance with the students if they come to a public place where i happen to be dancing. its my time and i'm with my friends.

either that or just charge, on a per dance basis, you can at least get free drinks that way. :D

LOL! Great idea. ;)

I usually try to just say hello to the students, and leave it at that, but we've had a few incidents where the students will invite themselves over to join us, or ask us to dance incessantly. It's hard, because you don't want to hurt anyone's feelings -- and often, students misunderstand the level of attention they get in the studio from their instructor for a different kind of affection. I'm not even talking about the ones that have feelings for their instructors, even the ones who just seem to think that we're close friends, when all we intend towards them is a friendly, but professional, interaction.

Suffice it to say that I've had to, more than once, leave an establishment rather than be rude to a student by having to say, "No, I'm sorry, you really can't come over here and join us" or "Really, that's enough dances for tonight, I'd like to be with my friends right now". So, to avoid the scenario, I just don't tell them about my favorite places.

Besides, if you tell them about the place, it's even eaiser for them to mistake it as an invitation to hang out -- once they show up and you just *happen* to be at the same place you told them about. ;)

Larinda McRaven

10-25-2005, 11:17 AM

Thank you sunderi for sharing this kind of experience. It is often hard for students to understand the world from the eyes of a professional. I think you have brought up a very good point, the distinction between trying to protect ones personal space and trying to protect ones business can often be confused.

lynn

10-25-2005, 11:19 AM

that's great input! i guess as students, we never see that our teachers need their personal *time* and *space* as well - we just think being a teacher is a 24x7 job!!

dTas

10-25-2005, 11:20 AM

yeah... i know what you mean. when i worked in studios i came across this situation often. especially when you're out with fellow instructors just trying to relax and unwind from work.

eventhough we may love to dance... there's more to working at a studio than just dancing. a lot more. even teaching takes work and its nice to be able to just sit back and not worry about being a "teacher".

even when students "just want to dance" there's usually some sort of string attached (even subconsciously).

chalk up another reason for being an independant instructor. :D

alemana

10-25-2005, 11:21 AM

i always avoid my teachers if i see them dancing socially (which is quite rare. the competing ones simply don't go out, and the salsa ones only very occasionally.)

lynn

10-25-2005, 11:27 AM

ditto that, i would always avoid the teacher if i see them outside of class - they may be friendly and polite, but they need their personal space too....

Larinda McRaven

10-25-2005, 11:28 AM

It is funny (not to highjack this thread but what the heck) my Mother was a school teacher, in a different school district than where I attended, for over 30 years. But I only saw her as "Mom". One day I went to school with her and I saw her in a completley different light. She was "Mrs. McRaven"... or "Ma'am". I was in complete shock.

And what was even funnier to think about later on was the look on the kids faces when she introduced me as her daughter. The look of disbelief that she had a family or even a life outside of that tiny classroom or playground was something that those little kids never even considered.

There was even a moment of defensiveness. "She is MY mom" or "She is MY teacher". We all thought we had claims on who she belonged to... When in reality I am sure sometimes she wanted to go screaming and running away from all of us. :D

lynn

10-25-2005, 11:34 AM

Oh, i can so relate to that!! My mom was a high school teacher too!! The first time i saw her in class was quite shocking for me as well - she was totally different than when she's in home as "mom"!

dTas

10-25-2005, 11:35 AM

hijack continued...

i have students who are school teachers (or used to be teachers). one time i was requested to teach my students class of Jr High kids how to salsa. it was so weird to hear them address her in the formal when i always have known her in the familiar.

and some students freaked when i called her by her first name instead of Mrs.
they didn't know her first name.

Larinda McRaven

10-25-2005, 11:40 AM

ha ha, they might not have known she HAD a first name!

fascination

10-25-2005, 12:50 PM

thanks larinda for this point, even though I was already aware...it just sort of keeps it up there on my radar....I dont even ask my pro to dance at socials b/c I know he's got work to do and if he is lucky enough to sit one out then good for him....and if we have any relationship at all, it isn't the kind of friendship that develops in months but in years of watching how one handles boundaries etc...it is amazing to me watching some of his students treat him like their personal property and intimate, without the least bit of encouragement on his part