Salsa dips

[pygmalion]

Two words for me and salsa dips: sheer terror! :lol: Any pointers, especially from the salseras out there, on how to dip without killing yourself or your partner? Okay. I guess salseros can comment, too! :lol:

[borikensalsero]

Trust, however, it takes time to build trust on yourself and the leaders. I tend to leave the fancy dips for practice. The easier dips, if I do one in 40 dances is too many, I take my time, I don't try to get into and out of in a count of 4 nor 8. I'm going to take as long as I see fit to help not only myself but my partner get through it the smoothest and safest way possible.

I go slow into a dip and give more support than necessary, I usually give a big huge hint that it is coming, place my hand on the back of her head and let her rest on my hand. I don't pull, nor force her down on the dip either. As soon as I feel resistance or fear on her part I don't go any lower, smile at her in hopes to gain her trust, and pull her right back up.

I don't like dipping unless the floor is empty, if I try any it is during practice just for the fun of it, or if it is so simple and the song very sensual where one nice slow dip goes well with the end of the song.

I would have to say that your only choice to get over fear is to practice them over and over until you gain trust in both your skills and your leaders. Besides that I believe almost all girls get a little scared when first being dipped, after all, none of us want to hit the floor.

[peachexploration]

Two words for me and salsa dips: sheer terror! :lol: Any pointers, especially from the salseras out there, on how to dip without killing yourself or your partner? Okay. I guess salseros can comment, too! :lol:

Oh this is too funny. You know as a result from the workshop 10/25, I could "barely" walk for a couple of days. :cry: I threw my from a bad dip. :shock: We worked on them again last night at class and it's really important that the woman carry her own weight. It was soooo much easier last night. :D

Oh like borikensalsero said, you have to trust the leader. That was very hard at first but I'm getting much better. Yippee!

[SDsalsaguy]

WARNING: 9/10 of the dips I see should never have been done in the first place! Leaders... never, ever, ever, dip your followers head into the middle of a busy dance floor! I don't care how much control you have (or think you have), you still can't control the other people around you! I've seen salseros both glance over their shoulders to what seems to be an open space and then both proceed to dip their partners into the exact same place smashing the two women's heads into each other! I've seen a woman dipped in the middle of a crowded floor only to have someone else's elbow fracture her eye socket! These are only extreme examples of what can go wrong!

Followers... no matter how much you like the challenge of following, never let yourself be put into such dangerous positions! Any leader who insists on dipping you in such circumstances is being an egotistical "star searcher." Anyone who can really dance knows that dips and tricks are in now way shape or form needed to dance well!

The above caveats in mind, good dips come from structural stability – meaning that if either partner needs to muscle their way through the dip, then something is off!

Jenn, since you're the one asking the question, I'll particularly gear my specifics to the followers part... in almost every dip I can think of, there are three key technical elements to the followers part:

1) elevate up to the BOF/toes
2) bend your knees!
3) Lift your hips towards the sky – the more the better!

Element #3 is the most common and drastic problem... rather then lifting all too many followers throw themselves back & down into a dip – a clear recipe for disaster.

[peachexploration]

3) Lift your hips towards the sky – the more the better!

Element #3 is the most common and drastic problem... rather then lifting all too many followers throw themselves back & down into a dip – a clear recipe for disaster.

Wow, it's funny you mentioned that! There was a discussion during the last workshop we attended regarding whether the follower should lift the hips while dipping. Both instructors disagreed about this. (Although it made sense to me, especially since you're (follower) carrying your own weight) one instructor told us not to do it that way. Could be the reason my hip went out. Ouch! :? SD, thanks for the confirmation. I feel even better about it now.

[borikensalsero]

SD that was great, thanks, now I can get on my lady about it. :D She is in trouble now... Even if I don't know how a dip feels...

[SDsalsaguy]

1) elevate up to the BOF/toes
2) bend your knees!
3) Lift your hips towards the sky – the more the better!

Oh yeah, for those with other dance training you may notice that these three elements, taken in conjunction, come very close to describing a Jazz hinge in case that helps this make any more sense.

Peach... I see the lifting of your hips as an integral element of carrying your own weight (well, at least as much of it as is possible) in any given dip.

Boriken... happy to help out bro! :D

[msc]

On an even more basic level, the follows really have to keep their abs toned as much as possible during a dip. I've dipped 160 lb women that felt light as a feather, and I've dipped 90 lb women that felt like an anchor. The difference was body tone ... if you sag in the middle, you become very, very heavy.

[Sarah]

Hi Jenn

You should be able to dip yourself without the support of a partner - try it a little - not too much as its not too good for your back. Find out where your balance is and how far you can go comfortably by yourself. You should be the one to decide how far you go and you can go a little further with a partner you trust, but not too much.
Ask an external observer to watch your partner's posture - if he's leaning forward it can feel horribly insecure, as though he's about to fall on top of you.

Small cute dips can be just as cool as great big ones.

Cheers
Sarah

[pygmalion]

Hmm. Thanks everyone. Now I'm wondering if salsa dips are similar to ballroom oversway. In oversway, the follow locks the knees together to create a stable base, finds her own balance, and supports her own weight. In the oversway, she gives the illusion that she's leaning on the man, but she's really not. At least, not much.

[brujo]

WARNING: 9/10 of the dips I see should never have been done in the first place! Leaders... never, ever, ever, dip your followers head into the middle of a busy dance floor!

The problem is that most people have not been taught to dip correctly, they just stumble across the dips across the dancefloor because they see other people doing it. Some people that teach it don't do it correctly.

I would recommend the video lift, dips and solos to spice up your salsa, which is excellent. The emphasis on the tape is specially on where to dip your partner so that you always have a hand to push away people that come into your dancing space, and how to abort or do some smaller dips if there is no room.

[pygmalion]

Just out of curiosity, what kinds of things should guys do to protect their knees, their backs, and their partners during dips?

[brujo]

Everyone do the matrix!

Try this. Stand in front of your bed and plant both your feet on the ground, with your weight on the ground, bend at your waist backwards until you can't anymore and just collapse into your bed. This will give you a good idea of how far you can go in a dip, and is a good practice on slowly easing into the dip.

Don't ever jump into a dip, instead, make sure that you have the support that you need ( usually in the middle of your shoulderblades, neck AND waist ) and slowly ease in into the dip. Make sure your feet are planted. If you find that the guy is shaking a bit, do the matrix thing above where you plant your feet and try to get all your weight away from his arms.

I think a lot of guys will take a one day workshop and think they can dip anyone everywhere, so watch for the following to see if he has learned to dip properly:

1) Is he slowly easing you down into the floor, does he have control of the dip?

2) Watch how he is dipping the other dancers, is he using his back, or slowly bending his knees?

3) Does he have command of the floor, is he dipping you in front of him, or towards his left or right shoulders. Is he watching out for other people that might get in the way? For most dips, you should be going down towards the direction in which his shoulders are pointing. If he goes too far to one side, he won't have the strength to lift you up.

4) Watch the places where he is holding you. Is he giving you support at your center ( waist area )?

5) The absolute failsafe: is he big enough to catch you by brute force if you are to fall? While I'm not suggesting that you only get dipped by people that are 6'5, 300 lbs, it is always safer if he has the strength and reflexes to catch you.

[brujo]

Just out of curiosity, what kinds of things should guys do to protect their knees, their backs, and their partners during dips?

Should never even need to use their backs. Guys need to keep the back straight and lift with the knees. The downward motion comes from a compression at the knees, the upward motion comes from straightening the knees. Lifting with your back = injury.

As a safeguard, you should dip your partner at your right foot, with her feet between yours. Before the dip, see if there are any people coming into your space and fend them off with your left hand, your partner's head is going to go down in front of you for most big dips. Make sure she is straight and her feet are positioned correctly, her weight should be on her left foot, with her right foot extended in between your feet. ( For most dips ). Make sure that you always have balance and am in control.

Slowly ease into the dip. Wear a kneepad or helmet if you are not sure, do it on a gym mat. Do it at the pool. Be smart about it, if you can't catch her or lift her up, don't try to dip her.

[Sarah]

Just out of curiosity, what kinds of things should guys do to protect their knees, their backs, and their partners during dips?

Theoretically, and all going well the guy should not have to take all that much weight. But if Murphy strikes, all of a sudden he's going to find himself weightlifting, so he'd better be in an appropriate posture. He should be evenly balanced on both feet. His knees should be in alignment with his toes, his back should be vertical and any lifting required should come from the thighs and glutes rather than the back, arms or shoulders.
As for keeping his partner safe - she should be able to decide how far the dip should go[1] and therefore be able to control her own weight. If in doubt - don't do it!

Cheers
Sarah

[1] Or if the dip should happen at all - she can sort of replace it with a cute little minature body wave sort of thing if she feels really unsafe, and it still looks good.

[redhead]

Followers, balance your weight and trust your leader only 99.9%. If I'm not sure I'm totally safe, I keep one hand on leaders' neck or shoulder, so he knows that if he lets me fall I'll take him with me :roll: Safety first.
Don't jump down - spare your guy's back (physics, you know) and your own head. And please, please, don't lock your back muscles when going up; I accidently did it once, and the guy decided to dip me again (Murphy law) - ouch! Could barely walk for 2 weeks :cry:
Even with people you trust, please use your peripheral vision whenever you can. Two pairs of eyes are still better than one.
Other that that, I love dips! :P

[pygmalion]

Good advice, redhead! I like the idea of keeping a hand on the guy for extra stability. :D

[David]

Followers, balance your weight and trust your leader only 99.9%. If I'm not sure I'm totally safe, I keep one hand on leaders' neck or shoulder, so he knows that if he lets me fall I'll take him with me :roll: Safety first.
(...)
Other that that, I love dips! :P

I find that the way I do a dip changes without my really thinking about it, based on how the follower behaves. When she puts her right hand behind my neck I reciprocate by supporting her head with my left, and not diping as far as I other wise might. On the other end of the scale if I can feel she's really into it I'll pull her in close and tight on my hip, get my right hand and forearm nicely placed, and get down really nice and low. Having said that... I wont dip at all on a crowded floor.

I love diping girls who love being diped :P

[Vince A]

With the exception of the Waltz, I have dips in each of the other dances that I do.

The Pro that I compete with says:
When a leader puts a follower into a (basic) dip, the follower should be able to support herself in the dip to the point that the leader could totally let go of her - and she will not fall. She has demonstrated this to me, and it's true.

However, in social dancing, I support the follower with both hands until she gets to the bottom of the dip, then, say it's a dip to my left, I will let go of her and strike a pose with an presented right arm and hand.

Lastly, in social dancing, I wouldn't even attempt to find out if the follower could support herself. I willalways be there for her . . .

[Pukpik]

[quote="Vince A"]When a leader puts a follower into a (basic) dip, the follower should be able to support herself in the dip to the point that the leader could totally let go of her - and she will not fall. She has demonstrated this to me, and it's true.


Thank you a million times over for positing that. The folower should not entirely rely on the lead to support/carry his/her weight. Even with extreme dips such as neck drops, women can still feel feather light, provided that they implement the right technique (SDSalsaGuy's "Lift your hips to the sky! The more the better.").

I also see underlying themes in all of these messages of: 1) trust, 2) support, 3) comfort, and 4) safety that I am glad to see critically analyzed and addressed.

Dips in it of themselves also serve a couple of functions:

1) End of a song- there was a Salsa club here in town that strung all of their songs together, thus not providing a definite end for the lead to dip the follow. It may seem as a minor feature to leave out, but once experienced first hand, its absence makes an incredible difference. Dips provide a great way to end a dance. They serve as a sort of grand finale, a way to end the dance on a high note. It's the lasting mark/reminder of what the dance felt like as the lead and follower leave the floor.

2) To show off the follower- when the lead is a male and the follower is a sexy female, there is a slight motivation to show her off and dip her in a flattering (and hopefully tasteful) manner. Also, when the follower has exceptional abilities, dipping him/her might also be a feel good move to do as well, both from the perspective of the lead and the follow. In a typcal scenario of a male leading and a female following (this is also applicable to vice-versa as well), dipping the woman is a good feeling felt on both fronts (when executed properly and well). It feels good to the woman because it's a surrender of equilibrium to the lead who will cradle her in a flattering, exciting pose. It feels good to the man because it will allow him, for a brief second, to admire her beauty and/or ability that she radiates; in addition, making him feel great because it was his work that put her in that flattering, sexy pose and he can take credit for it with a huge grin on his face.


Some experienced people dip because it is integral to their style of dance and/or because they want to. Absolutely repsectable.

Some experienced people don't dip, either out of personal preference and/or it is not integral to their style of dance. Equally respectable.

And then we have the people who dip because they are consumed by the glamour of it and want to imitate it, thus executing it very badly (as addressed numerous times in other posts). Not kosher.


Lastly, the dip can sum up the entirity of the dance. Case in point from a female/follower's perspective: dancing a really fast Salsa song well with an experienced lead and being quickly thrown into a slow dip at the end. During that dip, the entire incredbile feeling of that fast dance is felt in slow motion, since the course of the dance is going from super fast to a sudden slow. The dip enables the woman to have all of the feelings catch up to her in that slow second, realized mentally (excitement) and physically (body coming to a sudden stop), and that is what she will remember when she leaves the floor; prehaps beyond, thus eliciting a second dance in the near future.


[Disclaimer: Apologies for using the words "feel" and "feelings" to death. Also, apologies to the length of the post.]

[SDsalsaguy]

Yet one more great explication Pukpik! :D

Just to reiterate a point I know you've heard me make before... for those more advanced dips where the woman/follow is taken off her own balance it has to be done in a manner that prioritizes structural stability.

[Vince A]

Pukpik . . . nice followup discussion/info!

SD . . . absolutely!

[redhead]

Pukpik, awesome post!
Experienced crowd, the following is not for you.
OK, the follower is responsible for her own balance. BUT I've had some bad experience with beginner leaders trying to imitate dips. I do support my own weight (leaders' comments), by it's not so easy. I'm OK with very little help from the guy, but please, don't jerk me when my head is just a few inches from the floor! :shock: I won't fall if you let go, but I will if you PUSH me. :x
About trust: leaders, never relax totally, or you will hurt her and she won't like it. I was dancing with one of my favorite partners at a crowded bar, it was a fast song, it had a little break in it, so we just had to do a quick dip. We've done it thousand times, but this time my head met a table on a good speed. I had an instant blackout and a huge bump on my head for the next two weeks. :? Why? BECAUSE HE WASN'T WATCHING! It took time to teach my body how to go into dip again because it would just freeze (instincts, you know).
David, I normally use my left hand to let a leader know I'm there (if I'm not familiar with their style); there's no pressure whatsoever, both arms are relaxed. Do you think it still can be an indicator that I'm not really into it? :oops:
I love being diped by guys who love to dip girls being diped :P

[salsachinita]

Dips in it of themselves also serve a couple of functions:

1) End of a song- there was a Salsa club here in town that strung all of their songs together, thus not providing a definite end for the lead to dip the follow. It may seem as a minor feature to leave out, but once experienced first hand, its absence makes an incredible difference. Dips provide a great way to end a dance. They serve as a sort of grand finale, a way to end the dance on a high note. It's the lasting mark/reminder of what the dance felt like as the lead and follower leave the floor.

2) To show off the follower- when the lead is a male and the follower is a sexy female, there is a slight motivation to show her off and dip her in a flattering (and hopefully tasteful) manner. Also, when the follower has exceptional abilities, dipping him/her might also be a feel good move to do as well, both from the perspective of the lead and the follow. In a typcal scenario of a male leading and a female following (this is also applicable to vice-versa as well), dipping the woman is a good feeling felt on both fronts (when executed properly and well). It feels good to the woman because it's a surrender of equilibrium to the lead who will cradle her in a flattering, exciting pose. It feels good to the man because it will allow him, for a brief second, to admire her beauty and/or ability that she radiates; in addition, making him feel great because it was his work that put her in that flattering, sexy pose and he can take credit for it with a huge grin on his face.

Wow.....! Another fantastic post :notworth:
Can't wait to read the next one, Pukpik!
You have explained in depth the exact reasons why I LOVE to be dipped, by leaders who execute them well :P !

[salsachinita]

When a leader puts a follower into a (basic) dip, the follower should be able to support herself in the dip to the point that the leader could totally let go of her - and she will not fall. She has demonstrated this to me, and it's true.

I agree. I do this.

Sometimes (only when appropriate) I sneak in one of these at the end of the songs to surprise the guys :twisted: (only to the selected ones of course.....)

[David]

(...) David, I normally use my left hand to let a leader know I'm there (if I'm not familiar with their style); there's no pressure whatsoever, both arms are relaxed. Do you think it still can be an indicator that I'm not really into it? :oops:
I love being diped by guys who love to dip girls being diped :P

Left hand? You could do almost anything with your left hand without really affecting the way I'll do a dip. Unless of course it's some sort of death grip :wink: I'd need to dance with you to decide if it's an indicator :)

Short of the above mentioned death grip it's the right hand I usually find to be an indicator, although it may just be a styling thing. A dip with the girls right around the guys neck and her left virtually brushing the floor can look very sexy, but I haven't seen many girls who do that kind of dip (I do know one girl who does it all the time). In most circumstances though I've generally found it to be an "if I hit the floor you're coming with me" type of statement. Which sounds perfectly reasonable really.

On a related note, I was a dipee last night :) A girl I know used to make suggestions about swapping roles for a dance. Last night I thought "what the hell" and told her to lead, I'd follow... or at least attempt to. Was definitely good for a laugh, very strange though. Fun, will probably give it another go next week. Anyway, to finish the song she of course had to do a dip... very bizarre to be on the receiving end :shock:

[salsachinita]

A dip with the girls right around the guys neck and her left virtually brushing the floor can look very sexy, but I haven't seen many girls who do that kind of dip

I must be one of the few who would still do it :wink: .......dance schools don't seem to teach this one (or many dips, if at all) any more!

My favourite one is with my left leg wrapped around the guy's waist & down I go. My left hand could either be brushing the floor or relaxed on the guy's right arm.

[salsachinita]

On a related note, I was a dipee last night :) A girl I know used to make suggestions about swapping roles for a dance. Last night I thought "what the hell" and told her to lead, I'd follow... or at least attempt to. Was definitely good for a laugh, very strange though. Fun, will probably give it another go next week. Anyway, to finish the song she of course had to do a dip... very bizarre to be on the receiving end :shock:

:lol: Would have loved to be there! :lol:

[Pukpik]

Trying to dip guys who are non-instructors is a riot. I was leading a guy last night and at the end of the song I tried dipping him, but his body didn't know how to just "let go" (have the body relaxed) and be dipped, so he just stood there and said, "I don't know what to do!" His muscles didn't have any previous experience or any "memory" of being dipped, so the experience was entirely awkward for him.


One other thing I wanted to add to my lengthy post about dips was altitude. A few things that make Salsa adventurous and exciting is how dynamic it can be - in terms of speed (going from fast to slow, fast to stop, etc.), types of dancing styles/patterns, amount of floor space covered (crowded dancing using least floor space, non-crowded dancing using all the fun floor space possible), sharp accentuated movements or smooth fluid movements, etc. Dipping is yet another added bonus that makes Salsa (and other dances in general) enjoyable because it is a change in altitude.

This is entirely from the follower's perspective:

During a 3 minute song, Salsa is danced at one's own height, i.e. I am 5'7", therefore I am dancing Salsa and experiencing it at 5'7". The guy is leading me and tayloring everything to my height. When he turns me, he turns me with my hand very close and over my head at 5'7". I am not 6 feet tall and the guy is not spinning me holding my hand that high as if I were that height, nor am I 4 feet tall and he is not spinning me as if I were that height. Every basic, cross-body lead, and other complicated pattern he executes, I will experience it for 3 minutes at my stature at 5'7" (with exception of the tunnel and other ducking patterns). Five foot seven inches is"level" for me. It's a forgotten, unrealized constant. Then at the end of the song he dips me to the ground.... low. All of a sudden my world of 5'7" has become a brief shock perspective of 2 feet from the ground (I no longer see heads at my eye level, I now see the ground and people's feet!). It's a feeling and rush of excitement (provided that it is done well and feels good :oops: ). It's a combination of change in altitude, dynamics in speed (i.e. spinning her faster to get into the dip), and equilibrium.

It is because of these reasons that I LOVE being dipped low.

[Sarah]

Welcome to the forums Pukpik :D

Trying to dip guys who are non-instructors is a riot. I was leading a guy last night and at the end of the song I tried dipping him, but his body didn't know how to just "let go" (have the body relaxed) and be dipped, so he just stood there and said, "I don't know what to do!" His muscles didn't have any previous experience or any "memory" of being dipped, so the experience was entirely awkward for him.

I've done this too - half the problem is they panic and freeze up. Then they become really awkward. :twisted: Fun isn't it! Don't worry - I havn't dropped anyone (yet).
A few things that make Salsa adventurous and exciting is how dynamic it can be - in terms of speed (going from fast to slow, fast to stop, etc.), types of dancing styles/patterns, amount of floor space covered (crowded dancing using least floor space, non-crowded dancing using all the fun floor space possible), sharp accentuated movements or smooth fluid movements, etc. Dipping is yet another added bonus that makes Salsa (and other dances in general) enjoyable because it is a change in altitude.


One thing I like to do is change the pace within a dip - ie fast down then really slow back up - or vice versa.

Cheers
Sarah

[David]

I've done this too - half the problem is they panic and freeze up. Then they become really awkward. :twisted: Fun isn't it! Don't worry - I havn't dropped anyone (yet).

Had no problem with panic/freezing up. Awkward... you bet, but that'll pass :lol:

[hopelessly_addicted]

A dip with the girls right around the guys neck and her left virtually brushing the floor can look very sexy, but I haven't seen many girls who do that kind of dip

OMG i received this dip last Friday night. Man did it feel GREAT! I haven't even seen/learnt this dip before and it just happened! mmm I want more dips :lol: I'm not very good at it though... need to tone those ab muscles and feel the lead better so I'm prepared when more guys dip me! 8)

edit: I wonder though how I looked like when that dip happened.. the lead would not have gone that low if I wasn't holding my weight properly but then who knows, it all happened so quickly and next thing I knew, my left hand was touching the floor... :lol:

[Twilight_Elena]

I've done this too - half the problem is they panic and freeze up. Then they become really awkward. :twisted: Fun isn't it! Don't worry - I havn't dropped anyone (yet).

Had no problem with panic/freezing up. Awkward... you bet, but that'll pass :lol:

When my teachers first started dipping me I froze up all the time, and that meant that the dips just wouldn't come out right. I was so totally frightened of dips! Then a teacher who's really strong (I mean he could actually support my weight even if I fell into his arms) told me to totally let go and dipped me. :shock: :shock: WOW. He sure taught me how to relax. Though he warned me not to let my full weight in another lead's hands, because they can drop me. :P

Twilight Elena

[Ms_Sunlight]

Yeah, the first thing my salsa teacher says about dips is "Ladies, do not under any circumstances trust the man!"

[Sagitta]

Yeah, the first thing my salsa teacher says about dips is "Ladies, do not under any circumstances trust the man!"n Yup. Please don't throw yourself in my hands, with my petite frame and less then 120 pound body.

[Ms_Sunlight]

Hehehe. Sagitta, if I was to hurl my chubby self at you I think you'd run screaming in terror!

[Twilight_Elena]

Yeah, the first thing my salsa teacher says about dips is "Ladies, do not under any circumstances trust the man!"n Yup. Please don't throw yourself in my hands, with my petite frame and less then 120 pound body.

I'll keep your petite frame point in mind. :raisebro: :P

Twilight Elena

[salsamale]

... I love being diped by guys who love to dip girls being diped :P
I love dipping salseras who love to be dipped. I can't get enough. Salseras also seem to really enjoy being dipped. I suspect some salseras secretly dance mainly for the dips.