Word of Advice for New Partnership

[guille_bdancer]

Hi everyone, I found a partner... :) yay!!! (my age this time) But considering this will be my first partner I was wondering if you guys cared to give me any advice on the partnership, coaching, etc.

[Kitty]

what level and style?


first thing - you two have to talk about commitment so that neither partner expects too much:
how much (approximately) you'd like to practice and how many lessons to take and how often to compete. Just so that you know the other person's preferences. Of course all of these might change later and probably will, so if you disagree on something here, give it time, you might agree on it later.

[alemana]

my rule with my partners is: we refrain from correcting each other. we ask the coach(es) to do that.

[wyllo]

Congratulations!! I'd sit down and have a long discussion about goals and how you plan to acheive those goals. Also, think about what you are willing to compromise on and what are deal breakers for you.

[Kitty]

one advice I also received for a new partnership that worked well for me:

don't get too bugged down in details in the beginning, get the routines and know the steps first, do run-throughs, even if certain things "don't feel right". You can fix it later.

sometimes when things "don't feel right" in a new partnership it is because you are not used to each other (height, shoulder width, arm length, diffferent ways to do certain steps, too light/too heavy leads) but these problems eliminate themselves later with experience of dancing together (and some coaching).
When I started with my current partner I thought it was very uncomfortable for all the above reasons, and cause I was used to dancing with someone else, but I remember when I started with my first partner it was same story, very uncomfortable in the beginning.

[guille_bdancer]

what level and style?

We'll be doing latin - Novice

[dTas]

one thing that i learned that really helped...

learn to ask... "what do you need from me to enable you to do that?"

don't try to tell her what to do as much as ask her what she needs from you in order for her to accomplish what you want her to do.

[mamboqueen]

And every now and then mention how she's the backbone of the partnership.

[alemana]

dtas, good one.

[guille_bdancer]

thank you guys... I'll keep everything in mind...

[liangjz]

And every now and then mention how she's the backbone of the partnership.

Good one. It's sometimes easy to get caught up in getting something to work that you wind up giving your partner the impression that your don't appreciate what she does.

I'd think it's important that your partner hears what you think she's doing well.

[DancePoet]

what level and style?
Interesting, and likely important question. :cool:

first thing - you two have to talk about commitment so that neither partner expects too much: how much (approximately) you'd like to practice and how many lessons to take and how often to compete. Just so that you know the other person's preferences. Of course all of these might change later and probably will, so if you disagree on something here, give it time, you might agree on it later.
Amount of lessons and practice are key areas needing review even before the partnership is agreed upon. A common short term goal is important, along with an understanding of what the longer term view is, if any. A review of eachother's current skills could make sense, too.

Agreement up front could be better then trying to agree later. That reminds me of couples who marry early on in their relationship when that first stage of romance is still fresh and fun. They don't pay attention to the differences and then get into trouble further down the line.

[DancePoet]

my rule with my partners is: we refrain from correcting each other. we ask the coach(es) to do that.
My last partner and I had caring, compassionate, considerate, and co-operative communication skills which can make it easier for working out issues. ;)

[DancePoet]

one advice I also received for a new partnership that worked well for me:

don't get too bugged down in details in the beginning, get the routines and know the steps first, do run-throughs, even if certain things "don't feel right". You can fix it later.

sometimes when things "don't feel right" in a new partnership it is because you are not used to each other (height, shoulder width, arm length, diffferent ways to do certain steps, too light/too heavy leads) but these problems eliminate themselves later with experience of dancing together (and some coaching).
When I started with my current partner I thought it was very uncomfortable for all the above reasons, and cause I was used to dancing with someone else, but I remember when I started with my first partner it was same story, very uncomfortable in the beginning.
This could be helpful to keep in mind, thank you! :D

[DancePoet]

one thing that i learned that really helped...

learn to ask... "what do you need from me to enable you to do that?"

don't try to tell her what to do as much as ask her what she needs from you in order for her to accomplish what you want her to do.
Outstanding way to look at resolving issues! :notworth:

[DancePoet]

And every now and then mention how she's the backbone of the partnership.
Hmmm ... backbone, huh? So does that make me the nervous system. ;) :lol:

[DancePoet]

Good one. It's sometimes easy to get caught up in getting something to work that you wind up giving your partner the impression that your don't appreciate what she does.

I'd think it's important that your partner hears what you think she's doing well.
Very important! :cool:

[spatten]

I have one suggestion for your practice sessions - take the first 10 or 15 minutes and make it "no-fault". In other words neither parter suggests anything about the other, and you just get used to each other and get warmed up.

Also be sensitive to different learning styles. I learn best by feel -- my partner learns by seeing. We have to accomodate both styles of learning into our coachings and practices.

[Laura]

Here's a piece of advice: start slow and don't bite off more than you can chew. When my partner and I got together, we decided that since both of us were eligible for any level at all (even though I had been dancing for about 8 years and he for about 5), we'd start with Gold Syllabus. Why? Because we both already knew all the steps, so that rather than stressing about learning patterns and choreography we'd instead focus on figuring out how to dance together and how to work together in general. This approach served us very well -- we spent our first year just working on syllabus material, and have recently moved up to dancing out-of-syllabus material in Novice events. Our time spent working on the basics (that we were already familiar with) vastly improved our understanding and execution of the fundamentals of the dances, and also allowed us to sort out our hold and frame and how we move together.

[mamboqueen]

Good one. It's sometimes easy to get caught up in getting something to work that you wind up giving your partner the impression that your don't appreciate what she does.

I'd think it's important that your partner hears what you think she's doing well.


My point exactly. A little appreciation goes a long way.

[Terpsichorean Clod]

I think I've found a partner (Standard). Yay for studio social waltz mixers! She approached me afterward and suggested that we take lessons from her old coaches. We've social danced together a few times since. She makes it possible for me to dance much, much better than I would've thought I could. Some things match up nicely.
-driving distances
-lesson frequency
-practice availability
-height (usually pretty hard for me to find matches since I'm so short)
-goals
-personality

I've heard some people require age compatibility. Why is that? Should I be worried that we have about a forty year difference? Perhaps I should be concerned about the unhappy possibility of outliving a partner? ;) Seriously, she moves much better than I, but might not be as quick to recover from injury. If I recall correctly, she lost her previous partner about a year ago to injury. Are there things of which I should be aware to prevent my injuring her?

The really big difference is ability. She was last competing prechamp. I'm...bronze... :oops: So I guess it'll be kinda like pro-am, but cheaper. :cool: I'll be paying all the lesson costs until (if) I ever reach her level. I've flitted through some practice buddy arrangements but this would be my first real, dedicated partnership, albeit an unequal one. What should I be wary of in such an unbalanced relationship?

All in all, I think this is a fantastic opportunity for me. She's obviously got lots of experience. She gives me good feedback, following what I lead, rather than what I intend (which is pretty easy to figure out since I can attempt only about 30% of the bronze syllabus). Assuming we manage to book a slot with her old coaches (I think they're nationally known), I'm really looking forward to starting over and building a correct foundation. :crossing fingers in hope that it works out:

[Corne]

Good luck with the new found partner.

[latingal]

TC, I'm happy to hear that you've found a partner! Wonderful. Best of luck to you!

[icequeen]

That's great you found a new partner! Congrats!

I'm far from an expert on this one, but I think one reason for the age compatibility is competition. My understanding is that the couple has to enter at the age of the younger person, which potentially could be a more competitive category than for the older person. Do you hope to compete together? If so, at what level would you enter competitions? Do you have to wait to compete before you are also at pre-champ level? In any case, it sounds like her experience will be benefit you in the learning process. Good luck!

[Terpsichorean Clod]

Thanks, Corne, latingal, icequeen!

Goals in order:
1. Enjoy dancing/learning together
2. Put together performance routine(s) (right now, just thinking something for the studio showcase)
3. Possibly compete (I'm really grateful to have found someone who isn't impatient to be on the comp floor, now)

If we were to compete, she suggested that we could do Student/Student (though I think it's generally uncontested around here). Maybe I should harass Laura about adding some mixed proficiency events to the USADance chapter comps. :D I don't know if she's pointed out of syllabus. I read somewhere on DF that a lot of prechamp dancers are still syllabus-eligible. Dancing in my age category wouldn't change the fact that I'd be the liability. :oops: :lol:

[meow]

Congratulations on finding a partner. :banana:
Over here, the couple have to dance in the age catagory of the older person. Having said that, remember TC that she has asked you. :D She may be a 'better' dancer than you at this point but she obviously thinks you are good enough, so don't think of yourself as the liability.
I don't believe you should be paying for all the lessons. It is a partnership, which means that as much as possible everything should be equal. Sorry to find a negative :( but that aspect doesn't sit right with me.
A partnership of quality requires mutual respect. In most new partnerships, one may think (and actually be or not) better than the other but if that is pushed into one's face then it can lead to many negative feelings. If you can, I would rearrange the financial agreement. If you have already made this arrangement though, that could be tricky. I would then put a time limit on how long you will pay fully, perhaps a couple of months, and then you share equally. The lady can't have it all her way - she already has chosen the coaches, albeit good ones, but still her choice. Please, don't think you aren't good enough and then get walked on. She asked you.:D

[elisedance]

Hi TC. Congrats on the partnership - and as an older (ahem) dancer (though with a partner of nearly the same age) let me add a few notes.

Lessee, where to begin? The only really important issues are, as emphasized all through this thread (thanks for digging it up by the way, those folks back in 05 knew what they were about eh?) that you are physically compatible and that you have the same expectations and goals. You obviously enjoy dancing with her and she with you so go for it.

On age: not an issue as far as dancing is concerned unless she can not keep up with you - but thats true for any partner. This may become an issue with time as you become more adept and want to move more - but its just something that you will have to be tuned in to - and something that may feed into the next statement! which is:
Just as with life partners, unless she is very secure she will likely start to worry that you will improve with her and then find a younger thing to run off with. Frankly, that is exactly what is very likely to happen as your level improves. While you should not worry about it now you need to be aware of it. It is, of course, an issue for dance partnerships between people who do not also have a life-committment but it will likely be more acute here. Thus, don't be surprized if she needs a bit more assurance that you are still committed and also if she seems to be a bit 'over-protective'.

On ability. You mentioned that your partner competed at pre-champ but not if she was also doing well - say, in the top 4 of comps with semis. Doing pre-champ does not necessarily mean being trained for it. If she and her partner were promoted out of syllabus (by winning he proscribed number of Gold events) they she is truly a star and you should treasure her above all material posessions (!). However, if not then there is a possibility (I only raise it as a reality check) that she never really competed basic training. If so, she may need as much training as you. [And in also which case she should pay as much for the lesson as you too, see below.]

Competition. If you want to compete in AM/Am you should realize that she may not (probably will not - it depends on your local AM organization) be permitted to move to a lower level. If she has competed in pre-champ then prepare yourself for your first competition - in pre champ! This is a major issue for your dance development. In my opinion (and I woudl guess most here) one should not skip the syllabus steps in competition - once you do open you do not have the time or energy to work as hard on basic method as you need and it can be a rough road unless you are truly brilliant. Doing this in pro/am beats not doing it at all (it may even be better with the right coach since you get personal attention). This may, actually, be a solution if you have infinite resources and time :) - do pro/am basic method while working on the partnershp. I think that would be a fantastic combination as you would have the benefits of both worlds - expert personal training combined with an experienced partner for unlimited practice.

On money. Its one of the anomalies of partner dancing that you pay evenly for the lesson but usually the coach spends about 3:1 time on the man than on the woman. 'Thats life' in dancing. In your case it is more extreme if (as above) your partner has an excellent basic method. I do not see a problem with you paying more than half - but I do see one with the way you have set it up. First, she should make some contribution - if nothing else she is spending time with the coach and there will inevitably be issues that are for your partnership that she should be contributing to. Second, the way you put it it is open ended 'until you are at her level'. Are you kidding? This could be 5 years or more! I am assuming you have similar resources then I would suggest she start off paying 20% of the lesson cost (as an investment in the partnership) and then you set milestones. By the time you are at silver/gold level she will be getting as much out of this as you - or rather as much as any woman gets. Stay tuned to how much attention the coach gives her - if it is significant then you may want to revisit this agreement.

Gee, I've gone on rather - the main thing is that you have a partner and thats something I for one really value - you can now indulge in its pleasures which means doing what I did last night - an hour practice, one and a half of lesson and then another hour practice - all for the cost (shared in my case) of one hour training.

Good luck!!

[meow]

Ditto!!

[telespin]

I think she is very, very lucky. Over this part of the country. Lady always offer to pay for the lessons as there are not that many male dancers.

[waltzgirl]

I think she is very, very lucky. Over this part of the country. Lady always offer to pay for the lessons as there are not that many male dancers.

If I have to pay for my partner, I'd rather just pay for my pro!

[Corne]

I think she is very, very lucky. Over this part of the country. Lady always offer to pay for the lessons as there are not that many male dancers.

I was also willing to pay for our private lessons with a pro. We have such a shortage of beginner-intermediate male dancers that if money was the difference between having or not having a dance partner i would fund the bill. I had a potential dance partner but he wasn't willing to drive a bit in order to take "free" private lessons...... There is only that much that i am prepared to do. Of course, no pro-am comps here.....

[elisedance]

I think she is very, very lucky. Over this part of the country. Lady always offer to pay for the lessons as there are not that many male dancers.

Hi telespin,
welcome to DF - can you indicate where you are - I assume the US (some of us are in other countries). What you post is rather interesting - and maybe a bit alarming. You must have some very spoiled men there!

[Terpsichorean Clod]

I was also willing to pay for our private lessons with a pro. We have such a shortage of beginner-intermediate male dancers that if money was the difference between having or not having a dance partner i would fund the bill. I had a potential dance partner but he wasn't willing to drive a bit in order to take "free" private lessons...... There is only that much that i am prepared to do. Of course, no pro-am comps here.....
I offered initially to drive her to the studio, even though my place is between hers and the studio. What we've worked out is that she'll take public transit to meet me, then I'll drive us to the studio. The question, then: is $0.15/mile an acceptable rate of reimbursement for her drive to the train station? :cool:

[Terpsichorean Clod]

Congratulations on finding a partner. :banana:
Over here, the couple have to dance in the age catagory of the older person. Having said that, remember TC that she has asked you. :D She may be a 'better' dancer than you at this point but she obviously thinks you are good enough, so don't think of yourself as the liability.
I don't believe you should be paying for all the lessons. It is a partnership, which means that as much as possible everything should be equal. Sorry to find a negative :( but that aspect doesn't sit right with me.
A partnership of quality requires mutual respect. In most new partnerships, one may think (and actually be or not) better than the other but if that is pushed into one's face then it can lead to many negative feelings. If you can, I would rearrange the financial agreement. If you have already made this arrangement though, that could be tricky. I would then put a time limit on how long you will pay fully, perhaps a couple of months, and then you share equally. The lady can't have it all her way - she already has chosen the coaches, albeit good ones, but still her choice. Please, don't think you aren't good enough and then get walked on. She asked you.:D
Thanks, meow!

I've already agreed to the financial arrangement. At first, I'd thought that she was investing time and energy for no immediate gain and only an uncertain future payoff. When I asked her what she might be getting out of it, she said that she would benefit (if only a little) from the lessons, having gone the last year without coaching. I will wait to see how much attention she gets during the lessons and consider asking her to contribute accordingly. I've never had a real partner in all my 1.5 years of dancing, so I've been feeling a bit...well...desperate. Thanks for reminding me that I do have some negotiating power.

[Terpsichorean Clod]

Hi TC. Congrats on the partnership - and as an older (ahem) dancer (though with a partner of nearly the same age) let me add a few notes.

Lessee, where to begin? The only really important issues are, as emphasized all through this thread (thanks for digging it up by the way, those folks back in 05 knew what they were about eh?) that you are physically compatible and that you have the same expectations and goals. You obviously enjoy dancing with her and she with you so go for it.

On age: not an issue as far as dancing is concerned unless she can not keep up with you - but thats true for any partner. This may become an issue with time as you become more adept and want to move more - but its just something that you will have to be tuned in to - and something that may feed into the next statement! which is:
Just as with life partners, unless she is very secure she will likely start to worry that you will improve with her and then find a younger thing to run off with. Frankly, that is exactly what is very likely to happen as your level improves. While you should not worry about it now you need to be aware of it. It is, of course, an issue for dance partnerships between people who do not also have a life-committment but it will likely be more acute here. Thus, don't be surprized if she needs a bit more assurance that you are still committed and also if she seems to be a bit 'over-protective'.
It's hard for me to imagine that happening (sounds so soap-opera-ish), given the obligation I feel I'm incurring, but I'll try to keep that in mind.
On ability. You mentioned that your partner competed at pre-champ but not if she was also doing well - say, in the top 4 of comps with semis. Doing pre-champ does not necessarily mean being trained for it. If she and her partner were promoted out of syllabus (by winning he proscribed number of Gold events) they she is truly a star and you should treasure her above all material posessions (!). However, if not then there is a possibility (I only raise it as a reality check) that she never really competed basic training. If so, she may need as much training as you. [And in also which case she should pay as much for the lesson as you too, see below.]
Good point. I really don't know her comp results.
Competition. If you want to compete in AM/Am you should realize that she may not (probably will not - it depends on your local AM organization) be permitted to move to a lower level. If she has competed in pre-champ then prepare yourself for your first competition - in pre champ! This is a major issue for your dance development. In my opinion (and I woudl guess most here) one should not skip the syllabus steps in competition - once you do open you do not have the time or energy to work as hard on basic method as you need and it can be a rough road unless you are truly brilliant. Doing this in pro/am beats not doing it at all (it may even be better with the right coach since you get personal attention). This may, actually, be a solution if you have infinite resources and time :) - do pro/am basic method while working on the partnershp. I think that would be a fantastic combination as you would have the benefits of both worlds - expert personal training combined with an experienced partner for unlimited practice.
I agree that I need to learn the concepts taught by the syllabus. I don't think adding pro/am would work financially for me. If it came to it, and I could be dance floor furniture that miraculously stayed out of everybody's way, I would dance syllabus figures regardless of the heat proficiency level. I suppose I could still get floor time in uncontested Student/Student heats.
On money. Its one of the anomalies of partner dancing that you pay evenly for the lesson but usually the coach spends about 3:1 time on the man than on the woman. 'Thats life' in dancing. In your case it is more extreme if (as above) your partner has an excellent basic method. I do not see a problem with you paying more than half - but I do see one with the way you have set it up. First, she should make some contribution - if nothing else she is spending time with the coach and there will inevitably be issues that are for your partnership that she should be contributing to. Second, the way you put it it is open ended 'until you are at her level'. Are you kidding? This could be 5 years or more!
That reminds me of my earlier remark about potentially outliving a partner...
I am assuming you have similar resources then I would suggest she start off paying 20% of the lesson cost (as an investment in the partnership) and then you set milestones. By the time you are at silver/gold level she will be getting as much out of this as you - or rather as much as any woman gets. Stay tuned to how much attention the coach gives her - if it is significant then you may want to revisit this agreement.

Gee, I've gone on rather - the main thing is that you have a partner and thats something I for one really value - you can now indulge in its pleasures which means doing what I did last night - an hour practice, one and a half of lesson and then another hour practice - all for the cost (shared in my case) of one hour training.

Good luck!!
Thank you for all the advice, elisedance!

[meow]

Thanks, meow!

I've already agreed to the financial arrangement. At first, I'd thought that she was investing time and energy for no immediate gain and only an uncertain future payoff. When I asked her what she might be getting out of it, she said that she would benefit (if only a little) from the lessons, having gone the last year without coaching. I will wait to see how much attention she gets during the lessons and consider asking her to contribute accordingly. I've never had a real partner in all my 1.5 years of dancing, so I've been feeling a bit...well...desperate. Thanks for reminding me that I do have some negotiating power.

Yes, you do have some negotiating power - you are a male. With more ladies than men around, of course you do.;)
Coaches were always saying to me when my son was a junior and we were negotiating a partnership -"Remember, you have the BOY!" Having said that though, I must admit I never really used that power and always played fair. I think that has taught my son to be a better person/dance partner.
But, you were asked by this lady so she must see potential. Value yourself and keep reminding yourself that it is a partnership with all that entails - money, travel, lessons, responsibility, courtesy etc.,.....
I truly wish you luck. This will be the first step of many....once out on the comp floor she will value you as you will be seen by partnerless ladies wanting to check out your status.:rolleyes:

[Terpsichorean Clod]

Coaches were always saying to me when my son was a junior and we were negotiating a partnership -"Remember, you have the BOY!"
:uplaugh:

Thank you for the advice and encouragement, meow. I'll try not to embarrass myself too much during the first lesson (today). :cool: Speaking of which, I was pleasantly surprised at the lesson price. It doesn't make sense to me that a competitive pro can cost the same (or even less) as a one-year-out-of-training staff instructor. Hmmm...time to dig up an instructor compensation economics thread.

[samina]

hey, TC... good luck! enjoy the journey...

[tunape]

I don't think this has been mentioned much... but I try view partnerships as a team work. We work together to collaborate, we try to make each other's lives(in terms of dancing technique, and life style) easier, and show compassion and care for each other's well being. I think the latter is probably the most important - that no matter what happens, we still respect each other and value each other as people, as dancers, and as partners. Comments and feedback during practice is geared towards productive work which makes us dance better, but should not diminish the other person. This is sometimes harder than it sounds!

put it simply, "show lots of lovin' for your partner"(doesn't have to be romantic).

[kimV6]

I don't think this has been mentioned much... but I try view partnerships as a team work. We work together to collaborate, we try to make each other's lives(in terms of dancing technique, and life style) easier, and show compassion and care for each other's well being. I think the latter is probably the most important - that no matter what happens, we still respect each other and value each other as people, as dancers, and as partners. Comments and feedback during practice is geared towards productive work which makes us dance better, but should not diminish the other person. This is sometimes harder than it sounds!

put it simply, "show lots of lovin' for your partner"(doesn't have to be romantic).

haven't had time to read the whole thread, but i feel like two things are musts: goal-setting and friendship. as tunape alluded to, team work is obviously a huge part. the rate of our growth has always run parallel to our friendship and relationship; when we are chummy and old friends, the ease with which we can communicate, identify problems, and correct mistakes is great.
goal-setting is an even bigger part. i've seen a lot of partnerships end because the two partners aren't on the same page in terms of what they want out of the partnership. this includes everything from what style they'd like to work on, to how serious they want to practice. goal-setting at the outset, and constantly adjusting those goals is important.

[Joe]

BTDT, they don't last long.

[elisedance]

put it simply, "show lots of lovin' for your partner"(doesn't have to be romantic).

interesting how you put that - maybe the wrong thread - but sounds like you would prefer for it to be romantic? In my limited experience (which obviously is not the case for many other people) a dance partnership works best for the long term if it is platonic. That way your committment to dancing together is not confounded by every other committment/responsibility of a relationship. I wonder also if this is different for standard and latin styles: the expression of emotional attachment is important in both but it probably much more overt in latin? And again, I'm sure this has been discussed before, then does an emotional attachment more important in latin than standard?

[iluv2Samba]

interesting how you put that - maybe the wrong thread - but sounds like you would prefer for it to be romantic?

I don't think tunape was referring to a romantic relationship between dance partners. It sounds to me that he meant we should be good friends with our dance partners and care for their well being supporting them both on and off the dance floor.

[elisedance]

Hmm, thats not exactly how I read it. But TP, is that what you meant?

[tunape]

I don't think tunape was referring to a romantic relationship between dance partners. It sounds to me that he meant we should be good friends with our dance partners and care for their well being supporting them both on and off the dance floor.

sorry for the confusion. I was trying to say that there could be lots of "lovin" as in close friendship, or respect for each other, and not in the romantic sense of "lovin". If it chooses to go the latter, that's a whole different issue.

[meow]

My son has competed in both standard and latin in the past, although he now specializes in Latin. Everyone always thought he was romantically linked with all the partners he has had (4) and he wasn't. He 'acts' as well as dances as each dance tells a story. And at the end of each heat, he gives his partner a kiss on the cheek as they leave the floor, even when they were not getting along.