Boring studios...

[dTas]

so last weekend my wife and i were invited to go out dancing at a local studio that we haven't been to in years. now i remember why we haven't been there in so long.

studio's have become boring... same old "canned" music, same old "competative" dancers doing their routines on the floor, same old "ballroom snobs" walking around justifying their choice in studios and instructors. old music played through an out-dated sound system *yawn*.

couples whizzing by doing the same step. heads cocked to the left, passionless. no sense of the music, no love for the movement... they might as well be dancing to a metronome.

where's the emotion? the intimacy? where's the passion? it just seems that studios have become so dry lately. a whole bunch of people just totally missing the point. i envy the salsa dancers who have the venues with life and energy. i wish there were places like salsa bars for ballroom.... ballroom bars?

my wife and i love going to local bars with a live band and dancing to whatever music is being played. we don't especially appreciate the smoke, small crowded dance floors, extra loud music and innebriated patrons. but we love the passion, the energy, the life that is in those places. people are there to kick back, relax, and just dance with the person their with.

no cares about what the step is, no cares about who's watching and what they might think, no "show" to put on. its about me, my partner, and the music.

[alemana]

oy, that sounds like a painful couple of hours.

[saludas]

Consider your location. Ballroom dancers in your AREA... hmmmm... maybe it's time for a trip to the 'hubs' - NY, LA, etc....

[Porfirio Landeros]

The ballroom party at Champion this last weekend was awesome. I think people make the best of the general dancing time at the show/parties because it's not constant throughout the night, given that the shows are done in 3 separate acts. Anyway, Saludas may have a point... some scenes get stuck in a rut. I had to move away from the rut that I was in, and am I ever glad I came to San Diego.

Also, my first ballroom instructor always taught us to never go to a party and expect to be entertained... you have to MAKE it a party. People will feed off the energy you give off, and hopefully, they'll all catch the fever.

[alemana]

i've been to plenty of EXCRUCIATING ballroom socials in new york city.

[saludas]

i've been to plenty of EXCRUCIATING ballroom socials in new york city.


LOL I share your pain!!!

[Chris Stratton]

If you aren't in a position to experience the kinds of dance feeling that those claimed oddities of ballroom are intended to enable, then yes, I think you probably would find them pointelss/boring/annoying.

Many dance students may not get much of that full experience, because many details are handing out simply as the proper thing to do, with little explanation of why, or follow through development that would reveal their advantages.

Sort of like the near mandatory pre-calculus class, much of which didn't make any sense, except later to the minority who went on to the optional calculus class. The organization probably could have, and should have, been reshuffled so that details and their justifying applications were developed more hand in hand.

[clave]

i envy the salsa dancers who have the venues with life and energy.
ehehehe "come to the dark side, my son!" ;)

[dTas]

its just sad... its places like this (which around here unfortunately is the norm and not the isolated case) that makes dancing seem so "uninteresting" to the general public.

who wants to learn the foxtrot and trudge around the floor or learn to cha cha and look like a idiot. "heck i can do that already... why should i go to dance class to learn how?"

why can't ballroom dance venues become places that people want to go to instead of a place that "dance" people can go and "hide". people should flock to ballroom venues to enjoy the atmosphere and see other enjoying their dancing.

in ways i think we (the ballroom community) have alienated ourselves from the rest of the world. we "invite" people to join the ranks of our upper echelon, given they have enough money... where instead we should be going out "cruisading" to bring dance to those who have not had the opportunity or availability or simply turned their backs to it.

can i have an AHMEN! :D

[dTas]

ehehehe "come to the dark side, my son!" ;)

been there... done that... and i still dip into those waters occasionally. but unfortunately its not enough for me, i need more variety.

[alemana]

i'm with ya, dtas.

[Larinda McRaven]

It also may be part of a growth pattern... when you start in ballroom it is all fresh and exciting (the very same party you went to, yet through a newbies eyes)

There are several dancers in our area that say things like "Hey where are all the Good Dancers? I rememebr back when I started there was a whole group of advanced good dancers..." But the thing that they cannot see is they have now become the "upper class" and they set the tone and momentum for the newer generation of dancers.

So sometimes it is just your reality... not everyone elses. Perceptions shift as you grow,

[lynn]

that sounds so sad....:(

i just can't understand that if people do not have the passion, why do they bother....

[saludas]

One thing is for sure, most of the 'good' dancers soon grow weary of socials and move to privates and competition.

They, too, see the dreariness of the diletantte groupclasser, doing the same 3 steps over and over.

However, I certainly do not see that perspective about 'ballroom' not being exciting. I just think you are looking in the wrong place for excitement.

Remember, the worse dancer always has the better time.....

[tanya_the_dancer]

that sounds so sad....:(

i just can't understand that if people do not have the passion, why do they bother....

I think some people dance just because it is a nice way to spend time as a couple, not because they're passionate about dancing. These are the ones who always dance with each other and only with each other, and who don't try too hard to learn new things.

[chica latina]

that sounds so sad....:(

i just can't understand that if people do not have the passion, why do they bother....

Some people have a hard time showing their emotions while they dance but that doesn't mean they don't have them.

[lynn]

Remember, the worse dancer always has the better time.....

really?? why is that? although i sort of agree with this....

As weird as it sounds, i've often see the really new beginners that have the best of time - they're just there to have a good time and not worry about the "everything else".

i think socials are just there for a different purpose than comps: for ppl to relaxd and have fun.

[mamboqueen]

really?? why is that? although i sort of agree with this....

As weird as it sounds, i've often see the really new beginners that have the best of time - they're just there to have a good time and not worry about the "everything else".

i think socials are just there for a different purpose than comps: for ppl to relaxd and have fun.


I'll go out on the limb (and probably hang myself in doing so). I think beginners have more fun because they are exposed to better dancers and are challenged. People who are more advanced find it somewhat boring to be doing the same basic steps over and over with beginners. And probably not very well, either.

[lynn]

but isn't that just a vicious cycle? Beginners becomes more advanced - they feel they are not challenged and so they leave. I think the problem is that the studio may need to think of ways of attracting more higher-level dancers?

[mamboqueen]

Yup!

The other problem is lack of leads...at least in my area. One studio lets the more advanced ones in for free...smart move. Nothing I hate more than sitting the entire time, given how infrequently I get to go out.

[pygmalion]

Wow. The perspectives are interesting, but this thread is strange to me. May it's because I'm such an extrovert. But I've never been to a boring dance social. Either I can get high off dancing "up" or I can high off dancing with people in my peer group or I can get high off dancing with beginners. Or, if worse comes to worse, I can get high off just meeting new people.

It's all good to me. But that's just me. I think a lot has to do with the expectations you bring with you. If you're looking for a dancing challenge, I can see where some dances would be more excruciating than others. :cool:

[lynn]

that's true - i've known people who treat socials as comps who are there to dance with perfect figures/postures...etc while others are satisfied with just having a good time (doesn't matter who they dancex with, doesn't matter how the lead/follow is). Perception really is an influential factor - i find that if i go to a social and criticize every single leads i danced with (never done that b4 and hopefully never will!) i'll definately have a horrible time....

[pygmalion]

To be perfectly forthcoming, though, I have to admit that I think the predictable, canned music needs to go, in a lot of cases.

[saludas]

Many people go to their lessons and say that they were 'practicing' by merely going to a social.

Also, many folks go to socials and dance entirely differently than their lessons... social foxtrot, for instance, is mastered in a month or so, while actual Foxtrot may take years, and takes much longer when it is never even approaced except for that 1 hour a week in a class situation...

[dTas]

really i'm annoyed at the environment. it seems suited to one kind of dancer only... the aspiring beginner.

i sit in these studios and sigh with boredome... just another practice party.

why can't ballroom have an environment where people "cut-loose" with their ballroom dancing. inspire inovation and colaboration on the dance floor. create a community that takes ballroom in a different direction and get out of this "studio-rutt".

it seems that ballroom has isolated itself and made itself "too specialized". where salsa and swing have made themselves more "open" and "inviting". you go into a salsa venue and you don't see "stagnent-steps" but innovation and true emotion. yes, sometimes studios are enlightened by the occasional couple that really enjoys their dancing and captures your heart in watching them dance, but those moments are few and far between.

where are they? i'm not talking about advanced dancers, i'm talking about dynamic folks that spur energy and life in dance and are fun to watch even when they're doing the basic. you can see that they're out there for themselves... and loving it. not trying to execute some routine and look "perfect" but doing what they feel and connecting with each other.

[saludas]

To be perfectly forthcoming, though, I have to admit that I think the predictable, canned music needs to go, in a lot of cases.

Many people are 'dj's simply because they are the ones willing to sit there and program music. Truly inspired djs, like in all of th arts, are very rare.

Additionally, most socials play the music that the studio owns. That music is there for learning purposes, not 'listening'. Pushing buttons on the computer at the studio is a lame way to dj, but many do it and think that they are doing it well.

Finding music that fits the needs of a dancer (International, for instance, has different tempos than America) is hard, and takes a lot of time. As in dancing, preparation is key.

Finally, age and worldliness determines what the dj thinks is 'good' music. Try telling the geeky dj that you want to hear Black Eyed Peas to do a cha cha to, and they will stare blankly at you.

[lynn]

sorry, dTas, but what do you mean by "dynamic folks"?? From this thread i get the feeling that these are the advanced dancers who somehow needs to be motivated to come to these socials whereas "aspiring beginners" seems to be self-motivating.

[lynn]

Many people are 'dj's simply because they are the ones willing to sit there and program music. Truly inspired djs, like in all of th arts, are very rare.

Having a live band might solve the problem ;) ?

[mamboqueen]

I've seen live bands flop at dances....many of them just don't have enough range to do *that* many kinds of dances...

[dTas]

sorry, dTas, but what do you mean by "dynamic folks"?? From this thread i get the feeling that these are the advanced dancers who somehow needs to be motivated to come to these socials whereas "aspiring beginners" seems to be self-motivating.

let me try a little different road here...

one thing that bugs me when going into a studio is hearing "I don't know that move." and they stop dead in their tracks. when all i did was make them step sideways instead of back (or something outside of their "comfort zone") - not dynamic

then there's the person that goes... "that was fun! i didn't know i could do that!" - dynamic

i didn't mean to shoot down "aspiring beginners". i admire they're desire to improve. i was only trying to describe what i perceive studio environments have tailored themselves to .

[saludas]

I don't understand this, tho. You complain that socials in your area are geared to beginners, but they ARE called practice parties - and that's for a reason. let them be - they are having a BALL. Everyone they try to dance with is at their level or higher, it is a room abuzz with people with a common interest, and they are feeling the accomplishemnt of producing dance....

Also, I think as a dancer you need to be very good to really understand how to 'cut loose' in ballroom... the 'backstory' of a foxtrot is a lot more complex than 'dancing happily' or some such emotional moment. Also, it is not really something that is always 'broadcast' to the corwd at the local social.

I can see why people think that true social dances like Salsa appear more 'creative' but they are certainly not that spontaneous. Ever see a 'salsero' try to dance to a waltz? Not a pretty sight...

Beginners, of course, do not need the complexities of 'why' in their dancing.

I think that social 'one dancers' like salsa and swing people get to a higher level quicker, simply becuase they are dancing to one musical style, but I think that the discipline of ballroom and Latin ultimately get to greater heights, but they take a lot longer. A beginner needs to master 10 or so dances, tempos, styles, movements; the salsa dancer only one. So, the salsa person seems happer sooner. I dunno if this answers anything, but I thought this should be mentioned. Going to a bar and seeing people dance with wild abandon is certainly a good excercise in watching 'the human condition', but the mere fact that someone looks like they're groovin' in the bar or a wedding does not inspire ME.

[pygmalion]

Finding music that fits the needs of a dancer (International, for instance, has different tempos than America) is hard, and takes a lot of time. As in dancing, preparation is key.

Finally, age and worldliness determines what the dj thinks is 'good' music. Try telling the geeky dj that you want to hear Black Eyed Peas to do a cha cha to, and they will stare blankly at you.

Amen and amen. :cool:

[saludas]

really i'm annoyed at the environment. it seems suited to one kind of dancer only... the aspiring beginner.

you go into a salsa venue and you don't see "stagnent-steps" but innovation and true emotion.

I disagree. I see street level dancers doing one or two 'moves' usually offtime, moving their arms and not their bodies, and are totally unprepared for anything other than what they know, or what they see around them. SALSA dancers are the ones that will look blankly at you and say "I don't move like that". Ballroom dancers might be simply 'thinking' about what you dance, and may not be as happy to simply 'move to the left' for no reason dance-wise.

Not to diss Salsa (or any social dance) but the reason a social dance is successful is that virtually ANYONE can 'do' it. The harder ones DO take effort, practice, and thought. Salsa does, too, and can look amazing, but most social Salsa dancers will argue that anything outside of THEIR comfort zone is not a character of salsa, same as anyone who only knows the basics in a dance. Ask a salsa dancer to dance with a 'break' on anything but what they know and they freak out...

[tanya_the_dancer]

really i'm annoyed at the environment. it seems suited to one kind of dancer only... the aspiring beginner.

i sit in these studios and sigh with boredome... just another practice party.

why can't ballroom have an environment where people "cut-loose" with their ballroom dancing. inspire inovation and colaboration on the dance floor. create a community that takes ballroom in a different direction and get out of this "studio-rutt".

it seems that ballroom has isolated itself and made itself "too specialized". where salsa and swing have made themselves more "open" and "inviting". you go into a salsa venue and you don't see "stagnent-steps" but innovation and true emotion. yes, sometimes studios are enlightened by the occasional couple that really enjoys their dancing and captures your heart in watching them dance, but those moments are few and far between.

where are they? i'm not talking about advanced dancers, i'm talking about dynamic folks that spur energy and life in dance and are fun to watch even when they're doing the basic. you can see that they're out there for themselves... and loving it. not trying to execute some routine and look "perfect" but doing what they feel and connecting with each other.

I think there are several factors here.

First, "dynamic" folks you're talking about are rare in general, not just in dancing. And maybe the "dynamic" ones gravitate naturally towards clubs because of the athmosphere. I know a person like this. She is the life of the party type and she just likes to hang out in clubs, although she does not dance.

Second, I think the "connecting with each other" part you're talking about is something that comes with experience. I always enjoyed dancing, but it took me a long time to get to the point when my dancing became enjoyable to watch (I figured it happened when I actually started getting compliments like "I like watching you dance", so if I count from the time I first came to a group class, it took me 5 years to get to that point)

[redhead]

... a whole bunch of people just totally missing the point.
may be they are not missing the point, just their definition of the point is different from yours?

[smoozer]

dtas how long have you been in Washington? It has been that way in the puget sound area for as long as i can remember with the exception of when USABDA NW used to have their dances at the Mountainers Club 20+ yrs ago. That was a rockin ballroom dance!

[saludas]

I think there are several factors here.

First, "dynamic" folks you're talking about are rare in general, not just in dancing. And maybe the "dynamic" ones gravitate naturally towards clubs because of the athmosphere. I know a person like this. She is the life of the party type and she just likes to hang out in clubs, although she does not dance.

Second, I think the "connecting with each other" part you're talking about is something that comes with experience. I always enjoyed dancing, but it took me a long time to get to the point when my dancing became enjoyable to watch (I figured it happened when I actually started getting compliments like "I like watching you dance", so if I count from the time I first came to a group class, it took me 5 years to get to that point)

Amen. Plus, really, how many ''good' dancers are there? it's like that comment about there being x billion people on the planet and only 8 supermodels....

[alemana]

i hope all y'all disagreeing with dtas have thriving, energetic, well-attended regular ballroom parties in your area - and i honestly do hope that, i'm not being facetious. because if your scene sort of sucks, yet you're arguing with him, i have to wonder if your reaction has more to do with defending your hobby than engaging in a discussion about why, for many people, the 'opportunities' for noncompetitive ballroom dancing are so depressing.

[smoozer]

i hope all y'all disagreeing with dtas have thriving, energetic, well-attended regular ballroom parties in your area - and i honestly do hope that, i'm not being facetious. because if your scene sort of sucks, yet you're arguing with him, i have to wonder if your reaction has more to do with defending your hobby than engaging in a discussion about why, for many people, the 'opportunities' for noncompetitive ballroom dancing are so depressing.

Well said

[alemana]

except for the part where i say "all y'all." i am not sure where the hell that came from. who am I, daisy duke all of the sudden?!

[tanya_the_dancer]

i hope all y'all disagreeing with dtas have thriving, energetic, well-attended regular ballroom parties in your area - and i honestly do hope that, i'm not being facetious. because if your scene sort of sucks, yet you're arguing with him, i have to wonder if your reaction has more to do with defending your hobby than engaging in a discussion about why, for many people, the 'opportunities' for noncompetitive ballroom dancing are so depressing.

I don't know about you guys, but I don't look for club-type athmosphere (am I making sense?) when I go to dance socially. I've been to a club once, I didn't like it (smoke, too crowded, so loud that you can't hear yourself talk, and the dance floor is way too small). So I go to studio parties (open to everyone,$8 pp), which are relaxed, yet do not have club athmosphere. They're reasonably well attended, considering that ours is a relatively small town.

Have to run, will come back later...

[mamboqueen]

except for the part where i say "all y'all." i am not sure where the hell that came from. who am I, daisy duke all of the sudden?!


nahh...she already knows how to grind ;)

[smoozer]

except for the part where i say "all y'all." i am not sure where the hell that came from. who am I, daisy duke all of the sudden?!

LMAO

[alemana]

i don't get the sense that the club-like atmosphere (many parts of which dtas explicitly rejected in his posts) is the issue. the issue is the attitude of the people in the room. whatever the room. (oh, and some of the accoutrments of the room, like music choice.)

even at studios where multiple styles are taught, you will frequently feel an overwhelmingly tangible difference at *studio* ballroom parties versus *studio* (other style) parties. so that cancels out the stuff about the liquor/smoke/darkness making club atmospheres more conducive to a certain excitement/innovation level.

[lynn]

hmm, maybe i've never been to one of the said boring studio parties that's why i'm having a hard time relating...

[dTas]

thanks Alemana! you are hitting my point ON THE NOSE!

its not club dancing that i want. i don't like clubs either exactly for the same reasons as everyone else... smoke, small floor, drunks, grinding, etc etc

its the atmosphere generated within the ballroom studio that i'm complaining about. and its not just the studio's fault (though that's probably a factor). i'm trying to describe the creative energy, the "i want to live" enthusiasm.

the atmosphere gets "stiffled" with "that's the wrong step", "you're not doing that right", "i have to be perfect", "i want to be noticed", "i want to impress that girl". "what's that new step i just learned", all this "peform, perform, perform" kind of thinking.

If they'd just relax and not worry so much about doing it right they would look sooo much better! and i really think they would enjoy it more too.

again i ask... where is a ballroom "club" where its not all about "outside partner", "open footwork", "cbm", "instep", "figure x", "toe-heel", "frame", "basic", "bronze", "silver", "international", "american", etc etc but where those qualities are utilized to just dance.

[lynn]

will definately keep those points in mind the next time i attend a social...

[tanya_the_dancer]

thanks <b>Alemana!</b> you are hitting my point ON THE NOSE!

its not club dancing that i want. i don't like clubs either exactly for the same reasons as everyone else... smoke, small floor, drunks, grinding, etc etc

its the atmosphere generated within the ballroom studio that i'm complaining about. and its not just the studio's fault (though that's probably a factor). i'm trying to describe the creative energy, the "i want to live" enthusiasm.

the atmosphere gets "stiffled" with "that's the wrong step", "you're not doing that right", "i have to be perfect", "i want to be noticed", "i want to impress that girl". "what's that new step i just learned", all this "peform, perform, perform" kind of thinking.

If they'd just relax and not worry so much about doing it right they would look sooo much better! and i really think they would enjoy it more too.

again i ask... where is a ballroom "club" where its not all about "outside partner", "open footwork", "cbm", "instep", "figure x", "toe-heel", "frame", "basic", "bronze", "silver", "international", "american", etc etc but where those qualities are utilized to just dance.

But to utilize something you have to learn it first (one of those chicken-egg arguments I guess). Also, I think that very few people have the creative energy you want - and this percentage is same among general population and those who dance.

[dTas]

dtas how long have you been in Washington? It has been that way in the puget sound area for as long as i can remember with the exception of when USABDA NW used to have their dances at the Mountainers Club 20+ yrs ago. That was a rockin ballroom dance!

i agree with you... for as long as i can remember its been this way (20+ years). the only time(s) that i've experienced otherwise has been when a bunch of instructors have gotten together and gone out dancing with a live band.

we'd go out, cut loose and not worry about anything to do with the studio. use the skills we have to match the music and dance. no bronze #5 or silver #2 just move slow when you think you should move slow and quick when you think you should move quick. conversation about "how'd he do that?", "that's cool! do it again", "they're so smooth", screams of encouragement, whistles and cat-calls. just like a jazz jam session.

why can studios promote that kind of energy. why does it always have to be broken down into steps and figures. into something that can be marketed and sold. i agree that studio's need to teach something but, at least around here, the studios seem to be brainwashing people into dancing "drones" without individual character and expression.

its dry and getting to be really boring.

[tanya_the_dancer]

i agree with you... for as long as i can remember its been this way (20+ years). the only time(s) that i've experienced otherwise has been when a bunch of instructors have gotten together and gone out dancing with a live band.

we'd go out, cut loose and not worry about anything to do with the studio. use the skills we have to match the music and dance. no bronze #5 or silver #2 just move slow when you think you should move slow and quick when you think you should move quick. conversation about "how'd he do that?", "that's cool! do it again", "they're so smooth", screams of encouragement, whistles and cat-calls. just like a jazz jam session.


But you see, you guys were professionals and with all the training you've had you've got to the point when you can just do it without worrying about technique, steps or anything and just dance with the music. You sort of confirm my pov that you have to learn something before you can utilize it. It's just unrealistic IMO to expect beginners to relax, not worry about steps, but still dance along with the music.

[spatten]

Gosh, several things. It feels like you are applying your perception of "fun" to this scene, which to me sounds more "happy go lucky" and not finding that - you are claiming that the people are not having fun. Perhaps these people who are so focused on details and getting moves right are actully enjoying themsevles.

I won't disagree that some social scenes have a different character to them. That is just human nature - people may get cliquey, snobby, aloof in any setting. I don't think ballroom is the cuplrit.

I also think there maybe some "elitism" in the studio setting - especially those populated densly with upper income advanced degree type students. That is just a consequence of the pricing structre of ballroom lessons. Go check out a college setting - maybe you would enjoy that more.

Lastly I find it odd that you are hard on the people that want to learn about "outside partner", "rise and fall", or any other technical detail. I believe that just like any other art form - you need to learn the technique before you can learn to break it. My complaint about social ballroom settings is that dancers often reach an early plateau with no desire to push past that. Improvising something as potentially exciting and fun as an open foxtrot with someone then becomes an almost nonexistant possiblity :(

[dTas]

But you see, you guys were professionals and with all the training you've had you've got to the point when you can just do it without worrying about technique, steps or anything and just dance with the music. You sort of confirm my pov that you have to learn something before you can utilize it. It's just unrealistic IMO to expect beginners to relax, not worry about steps, but still dance along with the music.

why not? if a beginner can walk down the street listening to music on headphones and "bop" to it with out any difficulty. then why can't they do a quick or a slow with the same amount of ease.

i'm not asking them to get it perfect. i'm asking them to do it without thinking so hard!! RELAX! its not that hard to move to rhythm, it is hard to move "perfectly" to rhythm. there's no way a beginner will do that... so why try so hard to be perfect!

it sucks the energy right out of the dance and makes it feel like a lesson instead of a dance. even if its a "practice" dance... its still a dance, not a practice session. i could see a practice session with students all over the floor "studying" their dancing. but at a practice DANCE its trying to apply what they've learned in a "realtime" situation. so dance! take what you know and do what you can and don't worry about it so much.

edit: note, Tanya, i'm not referring to you directly. sorry it may seem that way. :D

[lynn]

i think the personality of the individual may contribute to this as well. For someone who's a beginner and an introvert - it's virtually impossible to tell them to just "relax" when they're worried about things like stepping on their partner or not being able to follow the moves...etc. Some people can have fun with just a simple box step and there are those who needs to really "know" what they're doing before they're comfortable enough to enjoy it, make sense?

[dTas]

Gosh, several things. It feels like you are applying your perception of "fun" to this scene, which to me sounds more "happy go lucky" and not finding that - you are claiming that the people are not having fun. Perhaps these people who are so focused on details and getting moves right are actully enjoying themsevles.

if they're having so much fun then why do they get in fights? not smile, look so serious. not all mind you... but i do see a lot of "non-smiling".

I won't disagree that some social scenes have a different character to them. That is just human nature - people may get cliquey, snobby, aloof in any setting. I don't think ballroom is the cuplrit.

I also think there maybe some "elitism" in the studio setting - especially those populated densly with upper income advanced degree type students. That is just a consequence of the pricing structre of ballroom lessons. Go check out a college setting - maybe you would enjoy that more.


i don't think ballroom is the cuplrit but i do think this attitude or way of thinking is because of the teaching structure of many ballroom studios/schools.

i see the same type of "thinking" in college ballroom programs. it seems we've all (instructors) have cloned some teaching technique designed way back when to make MONEY and have made it the only way to learn to dance.


Lastly I find it odd that you are hard on the people that want to learn about "outside partner", "rise and fall", or any other technical detail. I believe that just like any other art form - you need to learn the technique before you can learn to break it. My complaint about social ballroom settings is that dancers often reach an early plateau with no desire to push past that. Improvising something as potentially exciting and fun as an open foxtrot with someone then becomes an almost nonexistant possiblity :(

learning technique is a good thing. i'm not knocking learning technique. i'm knocking allowing a technique to restrict and stifle your ability to dance effectively. the technique is necessary, very necessary, but it all must be used effectively. i've seen students, not all students, just stop in the middle of a dance because "their technique was wrong". keep going! you'll get it on the next step!

that's just an example of what i was trying to explain. its something like that.

[alemana]

it's really, really interesting to me to hear an*instructor* talk this way. because a lot of students would say it's intimidating to dance in front of the teacher, whom they often perceive as being overly interested (to the exclusion of other elements) in technical proficiency. if they only knew!

at one studio i frequent, one of the regular teacher DJ's will mix regular ballroom music with hip hop/popular stuff and the effect on the room is often electric. you see that people *can* and *will* move even in ways that arguably look worse on their bodies than their "beginner" ballroom technique. and yet: they enjoy.

they'll try to combine ballroom with popular dancing, and they almost always have a barrel of laughs doing so. you can see this effect on a smaller scale when a very hot *popular* song is utilized to dance a traditional dance - people move differently when they samba to janet jackson, even if the steps and rhythm are exactly the same.

in some studios a single enthusiastic teacher can help move the needle at practice parties.... it takes a lot of work and dedication, however. and for what they are paid.....

[dTas]

alemana, i like what you're saying!! :D

that's right there with what i'm trying to get at.

just relaxing and allowing that "energy" to flow. beginner or advanced, professional or ameture... it doesn't matter.

[tanya_the_dancer]

why not? if a beginner can walk down the street listening to music on headphones and "bop" to it with out any difficulty. then why can't they do a quick or a slow with the same amount of ease.

i'm not asking them to get it perfect. i'm asking them to do it without thinking so hard!! RELAX! its not that hard to move to rhythm, it is hard to move "perfectly" to rhythm. there's no way a beginner will do that... so why try so hard to be perfect!

it sucks the energy right out of the dance and makes it feel like a lesson instead of a dance. even if its a "practice" dance... its still a dance, not a practice session. i could see a practice session with students all over the floor "studying" their dancing. but at a practice DANCE its trying to apply what they've learned in a "realtime" situation. so dance! take what you know and do what you can and don't worry about it so much.

edit: note, Tanya, i'm not referring to you directly. sorry it may seem that way. :D

I guess we just have to agree to disagree then. I still maintain that it is unrealistic to expect a beginner in anything to relax and stop worrying and just go with the flow. That's what beginners do - they have to focus on a newly acquired skill (not to mention that quite a lot of people feel uncomfortable about dancing with other people around). I think a person needs to get to a certain skill level before he can relax. I agree it can be annoying to dance with someone who is nervous about what he is doing. I had a dance with someone last Friday and this guy said he was taking lessons for 6 months. He kept saying to me after every other step "I feel so new to this, I am not comfortable doing this when other people are around". And he wasn't all that bad, btw.

[fascination]

maybe it depends upon he def'n of beginner...I have been dancing for a year and was just able to really do this for the first time this weekend...maybe it also depends upon personality...some people can relax at a lower comfort level than others...

[dTas]

I guess we just have to agree to disagree then. I still maintain that it is unrealistic to expect a beginner in anything to relax and stop worrying and just go with the flow. That's what beginners do - they have to focus on a newly acquired skill (not to mention that quite a lot of people feel uncomfortable about dancing with other people around). I think a person needs to get to a certain skill level before he can relax. I agree it can be annoying to dance with someone who is nervous about what he is doing. I had a dance with someone last Friday and this guy said he was taking lessons for 6 months. He kept saying to me after every other step "I feel so new to this, I am not comfortable doing this when other people are around". And he wasn't all that bad, btw.

ok... i'll give you the beginners. so what about everyone else? people who have been dancing for more than 6 weeks (or past the "intro" program)

[fascination]

yep...I think its a control thing...and after all the fun I had last weekend, I could really kick myself for focusing too much on being perfect and missing the fun

[tanya_the_dancer]

ok... i'll give you the beginners. so what about everyone else? people who have been dancing for more than 6 weeks (or past the "intro" program)

6 weeks is too short a time to stop counting a person as a beginner, IMO. The guy I was dancing with last week said he was doing it for 6 MONTHS and still he did not feel comfortable. I know that for myself it took me more than 2 years to get to the point when I was comfortable and stopped panicking when my partner did something totally unexpected (it did not help though, that my other half has had a habit of yelling at me if I made a mistake).

Also, this conversation reminded me of something. I had a lesson with a coach some time ago and he told me that in order to break rules and still look good doing it one first needs to learn how to follow the rules. So to me this translates into: to be able to relax and experiment a person needs to reach a certain level of mastery (how long it takes, depends on one's learning curve I guess).

[Chris Stratton]

why not? if a beginner can walk down the street listening to music on headphones and "bop" to it with out any difficulty. then why can't they do a quick or a slow with the same amount of ease.

Because most beginners are not at first physically strong enough to fill up a slow in foxtrot or rumba timing, without substiting an odd action (bounce step, or whatever). In a few weeks of good training this can be developed, but with less effective training the choices are blissful ignorance or "boring" but often futile attempts to figure it out.

[fascination]

Because most beginners are not at first physically strong enough to fill up a slow in foxtrot or rumba timing, without substiting an odd action (bounce step, or whatever). In a few weeks of good training this can be developed, but with less effective training the choices are blissful ignorance or "boring" but often futile attempts to figure it out.sooo true

[Chris Stratton]

Also, this conversation reminded me of something. I had a lesson with a coach some time ago and he told me that in order to break rules and still look good doing it one first needs to learn how to follow the rules. So to me this translates into: to be able to relax and experiment a person needs to reach a certain level of mastery (how long it takes, depends on one's learning curve I guess).

I think mastery is actually getting to the point where you can do what you want without breaking the (real, fundamental) rules... because they have become as natural a part of your reflexes as walking and breathing.

[dTas]

Because most beginners are not at first physically strong enough to fill up a slow in foxtrot or rumba timing, without substiting an odd action (bounce step, or whatever). In a few weeks of good training this can be developed, but with less effective training the choices are blissful ignorance or "boring" but often futile attempts to figure it out.

they don't have to do it "perfectly"... but they also don't have to concentrate SO HARD that they take the fun out of it.

[Chris Stratton]

Something we're perhaps overlooking is the difference between dancing and many other, more sport-like physical activities. In many classic sports, the possibility of failure is part of the fun - the challenge is to see how far you can go before dropping the ball or whatever, and then do it again.

But that's not really a very nice way to social dance with someone.

Dancing is maybe a bit more like skiing - falling is an acknowledged possiblity, and "ungraceful" stops are a certainty, but you hope they don't happen too often. If you look at something like skiing, people don't just go do it with no concerns... there's a lot of concern, and a lot of time on beginner slopes.

[chica latina]

This sounds like the people at the practice parties have different goals. Some are there to socialize and have fun, others may be there to practice what they just learned, others to practice "performing" their competitions routines, other to dance with different people (not their partner) and make sure they can lead/follow, etc...
But at the end, probably most of them are getting what they wanted, if not they will not be there again next week.
I have seen similar problems in salsa clubs. My partner was asked for a lady to dance and the 1st thing she said was "but I only dance on 1"; when my partner has been doing Mambo all along (on 2). Why doesnt she just follow....

[Chris Stratton]

My partner was asked for a lady to dance and the 1st thing she said was "but I only dance on 1"; when my partner has been doing Mambo all along (on 2). Why doesnt she just follow....

Because (as far as she's concerned) he's "doing it all wrong"

[redhead]

may be not... It's hard to switch to "on2" if you always do it "on1" and little screw ups are unavoidable (especially when you get out of multiple spin and automatically step back on 1) - so may be she's just trying to be nice and give him a chance to escape? :)

[SDsalsaguy]

may be not... It's hard to switch to "on2" if you always do it "on1" and little screw ups are unavoidable (especially when you get out of multiple spin and automatically step back on 1) - so may be she's just trying to be nice and give him a chance to escape? :)
I'd have to agree with that. If one has been trained in only one set of timings it can be hard to switch, even as a follower. Seems to me like she was just giving "fair warning," nothing else.

[alemana]

correct. confessing your preferred timing is a very standard thing to do and is usually offered not as a rebuff but as a PREMEDITATED apology.

[SDsalsaguy]

...as a PREMEDITATED apology.
:lol:

Gotta remember that one!

:lol:

[redhead]

correct. confessing your preferred timing is a very standard thing to do and is usually offered not as a rebuff but as a PREMEDITATED apology.
thi is beautiful...
lol

[alemana]

i should start a game where i make a t-shirt that says "ON 5" and wear it to the social and tell everyone i learned "on 5" and is that OK? the looks on everyone's faces!

that would be... ok, clearly i am now a salsa geek if i find this funny. which i do.

[chica latina]

Because (as far as she's concerned) he's "doing it all wrong"
I don't think she thought that since she compliment us in our dancing.

[chica latina]

The problem was that my partner could not do it on 1, since he was so used to 2. He was asked to dance and he felt like she requested the timing; which we like it or not the mans job. He didn't enjoy the experience and now doesnt have a good impression about dancing salsa/mambo with other people.

[SDsalsaguy]

i should start a game where i make a t-shirt that says "ON 5" and wear it to the social and tell everyone i learned "on 5" and is that OK? the looks on everyone's faces!

that would be... ok, clearly i am now a salsa geek if i find this funny. which i do.
That would be funny!

Hey, if all the DF salsa people ever meet up at an event we should all where those shirts! That would be proceless!

[Medira]

Dancing is maybe a bit more like skiing - falling is an acknowledged possiblity, and "ungraceful" stops are a certainty, but you hope they don't happen too often. If you look at something like skiing, people don't just go do it with no concerns... there's a lot of concern, and a lot of time on beginner slopes.
That reminds me of something my dad, a former downhill ski racer, told me just after I started him and my mother at the studio...

"Dancing is a lot like skiing. All it is is a series of linked recoveries!"

[Medira]

That would be funny!

Hey, if all the DF salsa people ever meet up at an event we should all where those shirts! That would be proceless!
*snicker* I'd do it! That would be too funny. :D

[redhead]

hahaha
let's do it... when/where?

[Chris Stratton]

That reminds me of something my dad, a former downhill ski racer, told me just after I started him and my mother at the studio...

"Dancing is a lot like skiing. All it is is a series of linked recoveries!"

Notice you said racer, not some more "artistic" take on skiing where form would be more important than a single variable like course time. If you push the limits then yes, it's all a series or recoveries (until the recover that doesn't work). But wouldn't a nice dance be one that stayed inside the limits, so it could feel good without those momentary awkward recoveries?

Doing that requires buildings skills to advance the limits beyond fluent navigation of the floor and material.

[Spitfire]

DTas, would you be referring to the WDC?

I guess I get so much into the enjoyment when I'm dancing to take much notice of any of this.

[Medira]

Notice you said racer, not some more "artistic" take on skiing where form would be more important than a single variable like course time. If you push the limits then yes, it's all a series or recoveries (until the recover that doesn't work). But wouldn't a nice dance be one that stayed inside the limits, so it could feel good without those momentary awkward recoveries?

Doing that requires buildings skills to advance the limits beyond fluent navigation of the floor and material.
Actually, you may be surprised at the strictness of the form required in racing. Slalom and Giant Slalom require insane amounts of balance and control in order to maximize your speed in a safe and controlled manner. Either way, I spoke of racing because that's what I know and used to compete in.

However, the comment was meant to be a joke as opposed to some sort of serious commentary and I hope that somebody was able to get laugh out of it. It was just your mention above of dancing being like skiing that brought it to mind.

[alemana]

confirmed: if there's ever a DF salsa tshirt, it will say ON 5. i'm sure the guys at mambofateegz won't mind.

[dTas]

DTas, would you be referring to the WDC?

I guess I get so much into the enjoyment when I'm dancing to take much notice of any of this.

yup... but that was just "the straw..."

[Spitfire]

yup... but that was just "the straw..."

Actually, it seemed to me like the crowd was quite enthusiastic with their dancing the three times I attended the WDC during my visits to Seattle and there was nothing boring about it at all, but I'm only speaking for those nights I was there.

Hey dTas, you could start your own ballroom "club" and I'd be sure to attend the next time I'm in town. :mrgreen:

[bjp22tango]

OK, I'm going to write my usual book, but read it anyway;)

I am only going to address the area of expression in dancing, not the other components of what makes a "good" ballroom dance.

I know exactly where dTas is coming from because I have also wished sometimes that everyone would just get out there and DANCE! (This from a dance teacher who tends to hover over her students like a hawk on a mouse, and who goes to every dance function they do:twisted:)

Unfortunately, as has already been mentioned, not everyone has a natural need to get up and dance (or it has been conditioned/brainwashed out of them by social/religious constraints) so if you ask them to take what they know and "go with it" they look at you like you are speaking a foreign language:shock:

Also, part of that ability to just let go is listening to the music and making your movements/styling fit the piece of music. The leader has most of the responsibility for this. This is never taught in ballroom lessons until you are choreographing a routine to a certain piece of music, so some dancers may never get this. Also many dancers only listen to dance music when at a dance, and as most of it isn't "popular music" anymore, they don't always learn to "hear" the musicality of it past the beat.

Originally Posted by Chris Stratton
Notice you said racer, not some more "artistic" take on skiing where form would be more important than a single variable like course time. If you push the limits then yes, it's all a series or recoveries (until the recover that doesn't work). But wouldn't a nice dance be one that stayed inside the limits, so it could feel good without those momentary awkward recoveries?
Doing that requires buildings skills to advance the limits beyond fluent navigation of the floor and material.

Part of "letting go" is using whatever level of lead/follow is given to react to, not expecting a certain proscribed "official frame". This is where the excitement, thrill, and danger of a "series of recoveries" can be a blast. It is testing your skill at balance and lead/follow. It can also lead to an improvement in your dancing overall, because you are testing your own limits.
Then when you next go to work on technique you have a better appreciation for what works and what doesn't. And I would be willing to bet that at least half of the "syllabus" steps now taken as the dance bible were created by someone dancing "outside the limits".

There is a particular thrill in dancing technically sound dance patterns with a perfectly matched partner on time and in frame that is nirvana. But this happens only after much work with one or a limited number of partners.

Social dance can be heaven of another type between two partners who may not have danced together before. That connection between the partners is "their connection" rather than an "official connection". And the dance patterns are "their patterns" rather than the "syllabus" patterns.

High level competitors all have their different ways of dancing a "fan and hockey stick" so they stand out from the rest of the crowd. Why should it be any different for social dancers who don't want to reach the uber contitioning or skill level of the champion dancer but can still enjoy creating dance with a partner.

The goal of "great dancing" is not the same for the "social" dancer and the "dancesport" dancer. In some ways they are diametrically opposed, so I am not surprised that there is so much argument and disagreement over what makes a great dance atmosphere.

(For purposes of rebuttal, my definition of "social dancer" does not include the person who has no ballroom dance knowledge but is willing to fake it:) )

[dTas]

Actually, it seemed to me like the crowd was quite enthusiastic with their dancing the three times I attended the WDC during my visits to Seattle and there was nothing boring about it at all, but I'm only speaking for those nights I was there.

Hey dTas, you could start your own ballroom "club" and I'd be sure to attend the next time I'm in town. :mrgreen:

what night during the week have you gone? i went on a Sunday. *yawn*

bjp22tango: well said!

i've been trying to explain all along that it isn't the level of the dancer. its the person! take what you got and go with it!

[Chris Stratton]

There is a particular thrill in dancing technically sound dance patterns with a perfectly matched partner on time and in frame that is nirvana. But this happens only after much work with one or a limited number of partners.

No, it happens with any social partner possessing sufficient skill - they need to be not only technically good, but also sensetive enough to dance something other than a set routine. That the number of people of this skill level attending socials is often small is a different issue - but when they do, it just plain works, even if it's someone you've never met before.

[Spitfire]

what night during the week have you gone? i went on a Sunday. *yawn*

I went to the Friday dances. What I've heard about the Sunday dances is that more of the advanced level dancers attend those.

[dTas]

I went to the Friday dances. What I've heard about the Sunday dances is that more of the advanced level dancers attend those.

i wouldn't say that. i'd say the dancers who are working on routines or have more "moves" come on Sunday's because the floor is more open. that doesn't necessarily mean that they're more advanced. actually i'd like to see if they could dance anything other than a routine or set move.

[Spitfire]

i wouldn't say that. i'd say the dancers who are working on routines or have more "moves" come on Sunday's because the floor is more open. that doesn't necessarily mean that they're more advanced. actually i'd like to see if they could dance anything other than a routine or set move.

I'll say this; the WCS dancing in your neck of the woods certainly doesn't lack in energy and enthusiasm from what I've seen. I certainly would like to check out the China Harbor nights when I visit again. :cheers:

[HF]

Didn't have the time to read all the posts in this thread.

But yes, there must have been a living viennese waltz scene once, where people would go because it was part of their life, and bandleaders that would live and die for writing this music. Johann Strauss was one of them, and I would give a lot to jump back for some hours to Vienna 1810!!!

I love this music and also love to play it. But it should be played and danced as if it was a contemporary charts hit, not like in a museum, that would be awesome.

[dTas]

Spitfire: yeah the WCS and Salsa scenes areund here are great! ton's of energy! China Harbor does a fairly good job of creating a "ballroom club" scene on Sunday nights. its just gotten too croweded there so my wife and i have been trying to break out and find other places.

HF: there are a few contemporary viennese waltz's around. they're great to dance to. :)

[Spitfire]

Spitfire: yeah the WCS and Salsa scenes areund here are great! ton's of energy! China Harbor does a fairly good job of creating a "ballroom club" scene on Sunday nights. its just gotten too croweded there so my wife and i have been trying to break out and find other places.

HF: there are a few contemporary viennese waltz's around. they're great to dance to. :)

When I was at one of the WCS dances held at the Masonic Lodge I was invited by some people who were headed to China Harbor to join them, but declined. One reason I have not gone to any of the Salsa dances at the Century is my understanding that those get quite crowded.

You know, the Orion had a lot of energy before they closed down their original facility. I noticed that it was still vacant when I was there this past June.

Has the Lindy scene declined there? I had that impression the last time I was at the Century from the attendance and talking to some of the people.

[tanya_the_dancer]

Didn't have the time to read all the posts in this thread.

But yes, there must have been a living viennese waltz scene once, where people would go because it was part of their life, and bandleaders that would live and die for writing this music. Johann Strauss was one of them, and I would give a lot to jump back for some hours to Vienna 1810!!!

I love this music and also love to play it. But it should be played and danced as if it was a contemporary charts hit, not like in a museum, that would be awesome.

But this sort of thing comes and goes out of fashion, I think. Just like there must have been living foxtrot scene back in 20s (?)

[Chris Stratton]

There's a living "scene" in a few places right now. The thing is that dancing isn't something our society is conditioned to think of as requiring training. If you look at something like a community orchestra, that's a similarly participatory, social, arts context. Everyone there has several years of preparatoy experience minimum, often quite a bit more invested in order to get to a level where they can fully, comfortably participate. The difference is that more people dable in that training in youth, and either continue to adulthood or are in a decent position to pick it back up at some point.

[wooh]

why not? if a beginner can walk down the street listening to music on headphones and "bop" to it with out any difficulty. then why can't they do a quick or a slow with the same amount of ease.

i'm not asking them to get it perfect. i'm asking them to do it without thinking so hard!! RELAX! its not that hard to move to rhythm, it is hard to move "perfectly" to rhythm. there's no way a beginner will do that... so why try so hard to be perfect!

it sucks the energy right out of the dance and makes it feel like a lesson instead of a dance. even if its a "practice" dance... its still a dance, not a practice session. i could see a practice session with students all over the floor "studying" their dancing. but at a practice DANCE its trying to apply what they've learned in a "realtime" situation. so dance! take what you know and do what you can and don't worry about it so much.

edit: note, Tanya, i'm not referring to you directly. sorry it may seem that way. :D

But for some of us, it is "that hard to move to rhythm." I think a lot of pro dancers forget, not all of us were "born" to do this. It doesn't come at all natural. We're super self-conscious of everything we do. For me, I feel more comfortable messing up something trying to do it "right" than I do just messing around. In my head, if someone sees me screw up doing a "Silver #2" or a "Bronze #5" at least I'm trying to do something that's an actual dance move. Where if they see me swinging my arms around and shaking my bootie, they'll think "What the hedoublehockeysticks" is that?" So for me, I can't "just relax" because this is so unnatural to me that "relaxing" would literally mean, sitting on the sidelines hiding. You're coming from a totally different mindset than I would bet the majority of people at these parties. Most of them would probably love to have the talent and "dancing ease" that you have, and would love to "just relax" but they can't. I sure can't.

[wooh]

may be not... It's hard to switch to "on2" if you always do it "on1" and little screw ups are unavoidable (especially when you get out of multiple spin and automatically step back on 1) - so may be she's just trying to be nice and give him a chance to escape? :)
On a similar note, I learned rumba "quickquickslow" and have trouble following "slowquickquick" even though I know it's basically the same and I just need to follow. Yet another example of "I'm a beginner and I can't just relax!!!"

[wooh]

The problem was that my partner could not do it on 1, since he was so used to 2. He was asked to dance and he felt like she requested the timing; which we like it or not the mans job. He didn't enjoy the experience and now doesnt have a good impression about dancing salsa/mambo with other people.

So because he could not do it on 1, he's upset because she simply said, "Hey, I can't do it on 2." Both were equally incapable of change, but she's in the wrong? Yeah, us gals are supposed to follow, but remember, we're doing it "backwards and in heels!" Give us a break!

[SDsalsaguy]

Some really good points there wooh. I know that I was certainly in this group when I started -- moving to the rhythm was the least "natural" thing for me to do!

[alemana]

it's true that people who are "good at" dancing (whether by nature or training/practice or both) might have a hard time understanding the anxiety of beginners/the less naturally talented.

however, all this mildly ridiculous protest aside (why folks feel the need to cling to their anxiety so fiercely is beyond me), the fact remains that there is something about the way ballroom dancing is taught and practiced right now in this country which fosters a decidedly unfun environment for many dancers. if that's not you, that's cool. but it's funny to me to hear people argue, in effect, that it's just fine the way it is.

wouldn't you WANT it to be more funner? (intentional poor grammar alert.) have you honestly never been in a dancing environment that is really freaking fun/engaging in addition to technically challenging? (and i don't just mean raucous in the way some other social parties are, like salsa and WCS.) perhaps you have not, and that's why you cannot fathom that it could possibly be better.

[dTas]

i teach my students an exercise of "pure lead and follow" in which the lead simply moves the follow somewhere and in some way. and then i turn on the music and ask the leader to do it again.

sometimes they get it and sometimes they don't. so then i take the follow and do the same thing. i move them to music in some random way, whatever my mind decides at that time. i stop the follow, turn them, and move them somewhere else (similar to AT at times).

the followers go "whoa! i didn't know i could do that." OF COURSE YOU CAN! you just need to listen. then the leaders get back in and start to understand that its not about the step and they loosen up and really start to dance (at least for that hour until they totally forget it and have to re-learn it next lesson)

but its a concept of dancing... not a step. dancing is a lot easier when you let it happen and not try to force it into shape.

[saludas]

i teach my students an exercise of "pure lead and follow" in which the lead simply moves the follow somewhere and in some way. and then i turn on the music and ask the leader to do it again.

but its a concept of dancing... not a step. dancing is a lot easier when you let it happen and not try to force it into shape.

Kinda sorta. Yes, lead and follow is certainly the way you describe it for beginners, but as you progress to more advanced shapes and movements, it becomes very important to

1. understand the movement
2. collect and practice a set of repeatable actions that can be 'led'
3. continue training so that you (and here is the real reason why dance training seems to 'separate' beginners from the more dancerly advanced) teach your body to 'instinctively' move in a way that is dancerly. Without that, nothing you mention (loosening up, having fun with it) can happen. Why? Well, IMHO, let's look at the most obvious expression of untrained dancing - wedding freestyle dancing.

It 'feels good' to the participants with zero understanding of how the body moves. And, it APPEARS that anyone can do it (and usually they do LOL) BUT when you look at a really good dancer, ballet to c&w to whatever, doing the same thing (random patterns to usually the downbeats) they look AWESOME. The reason is that their training has 'freed' their bodies to move instinctively - they can be 'in the moment' with a lot more possibilities. Their muscle memory 'allows' them to (at least look like) hey are instinctive and spontaneous, but with good expression.

Beginners in partner dancing need to be trained to (among many other things) be comfortable with the patterns and conventions of the dance form - like you said, show them WHAT lead and follow does. That's why you see the struggles that go on in practice socials - these are not really 'natural' movements, but must be learned. Same as swimming, for instance, in that there is a 'street' version and the more refined and 'understood' competitive version.

I'd really think twice tho before you 'knock' the dancers who aspire to be better - dance education is a really tough and long process but you know, it REALLY feels great when you get more advanced! Those folks are REALLY ENJOYING figuring out the mechanics - they are REALLY having fun learning and applying skills. They KNOW that they could be simply bronze level forever if they wanted (that takes only a short time relative to the education nedded to get better) but the WANT to enjoy things at that higher level. Plus, take a look at the Salsa forum - nearly every other post has someone talking about how they 'can't dance on 2, 3 or whatever'. They don't realize that they COULD if they worked more on the mechanics (so that dancing 'on anything' becomes a fun and interesting dance) rather than giving up after a few months and leaving their 'muscle memory' alone. Not to knock beginners in Salsa, but face it - in EVERY thing people do, it is easier to do what you know rather than learn and change. This is double difficult training your body - as anyone from a chain studio finds out when they realize that the beginner cha cha cha they learned is in the wrong place in the music... and they 'cannot' change what they think they hear.

Great dancers learn how to use their body to express. Good dancers are along the trail, or maybe got to a certain place and stopped. Beginners take months to master dancing on downbeats. Great dancers see and then DO the most complex choreography. Good dancers can see it and comprehend it, but take weeks to memorize it and learn it. Beginners go to group classes for MONTHS and come out saying 'I can't do these steps with anyone except my teacher' because they have not gotten the training and education to understand dance.

The difference is large enough that it's not comprehended. However, imagine how good a 5th grader would be at doing the most difficult thing you do at your job, for instance (ha ha, no jokes please! Be serious LOL). Now realize how much expertise, skill and insight you have when approaching even the simplest task. THAT's the thing that the pros who 'teach' you see when you tell them 'I'm finished with being a student' - they see someone who has 'dropped out' of second grade thinking they are college level.

SO...... don't knock those studious, focused, fanatical types at the social... THEY are the future 'great dancers'. Not the ones who laugh the loudest, or the ones who even are the friendliest... and the hardworking types (who LOVE working at it) will be the ones who actually ACHIEVE your nirvana of 'just having fun with it'... they'll have the tools, the skill, and the knowledge to actually 'do it'.

...back to lurk mode...

[tanya_the_dancer]

i teach my students an exercise of "pure lead and follow" in which the lead simply moves the follow somewhere and in some way. and then i turn on the music and ask the leader to do it again.

sometimes they get it and sometimes they don't. so then i take the follow and do the same thing. i move them to music in some random way, whatever my mind decides at that time. i stop the follow, turn them, and move them somewhere else (similar to AT at times).

the followers go "whoa! i didn't know i could do that." OF COURSE YOU CAN! you just need to listen. then the leaders get back in and start to understand that its not about the step and they loosen up and really start to dance (at least for that hour until they totally forget it and have to re-learn it next lesson)

but its a concept of dancing... not a step. dancing is a lot easier when you let it happen and not try to force it into shape.

You know, I've danced with quite a few different guys at the parties. The ones who could experiment "sucessfully" (by that I mean that it felt good to me to dance with them) were very advanced (or pros). The rest could be divided into 2 categories. The ones who would try to do things the way they learned them and focus on that and the ones (the smallest category, btw) who would "relax" and try whatever floats their mind. Dancing with "focused" beginning guys does not feel as good as dancing with advanced guys (obviously), but it still feels better than dancing with "relaxed" beginning guys, because they tend to be a lot more careless about their partner (so they would bump her into people more often, for one) and their leads tend to be a lot more ambiguous.

[redhead]

You know, I've danced with quite a few different guys at the parties. The ones who could experiment "sucessfully" (by that I mean that it felt good to me to dance with them) were very advanced (or pros). The rest could be divided into 2 categories. The ones who would try to do things the way they learned them and focus on that and the ones (the smallest category, btw) who would "relax" and try whatever floats their mind. Dancing with "focused" beginning guys does not feel as good as dancing with advanced guys (obviously), but it still feels better than dancing with "relaxed" beginning guys, because they tend to be a lot more careless about their partner (so they would bump her into people more often, for one) and their leads tend to be a lot more ambiguous.
Tanya, I soooo agree with you. Some "relaxed" guys will try something wild and start lecturing me on how I didn't follow - when I followed exactly what was led (BS was led, pardon me).
I wonder if followers' perspective is different from leaders' on this topic

[Chris Stratton]

Saludas explained things very, very well.

In response to the comments on how it feels to dance with various sorts of leaders, I'd suggest that one of the critical skills for enabling creative freedom in partner dance is learning to instinctively allow for the second body - because when you don't you make it rather hard for that person.

[mamboqueen]

well, that was better than your pointless argument :)

[tanya_the_dancer]

it's true that people who are "good at" dancing (whether by nature or training/practice or both) might have a hard time understanding the anxiety of beginners/the less naturally talented.

however, all this mildly ridiculous protest aside (why folks feel the need to cling to their anxiety so fiercely is beyond me), the fact remains that there is something about the way ballroom dancing is taught and practiced right now in this country which fosters a decidedly unfun environment for many dancers. if that's not you, that's cool. but it's funny to me to hear people argue, in effect, that it's just fine the way it is.

wouldn't you WANT it to be more funner? (intentional poor grammar alert.) have you honestly never been in a dancing environment that is really freaking fun/engaging in addition to technically challenging? (and i don't just mean raucous in the way some other social parties are, like salsa and WCS.) perhaps you have not, and that's why you cannot fathom that it could possibly be better.

I guess I cannot relate. In what way it should be "funner"? I feel that I am having fun with ballroom dancing as it is now. Yeah, it would be nice if more advanced guys came to our parties, but to be realistic, ours is a kinda small town (about 100,000), not many dancers in it to begin with.

[wooh]

why folks feel the need to cling to their anxiety so fiercely is beyond me

Because psychiatric therapy is expensive?

[SDsalsaguy]

why folks feel the need to cling to their anxiety so fiercely is beyond me Because psychiatric therapy is expensive?
:uplaugh::uplaugh::uplaugh:

[africana]

wow dtas :notworth: and the truth shall set you free

alemena you're so right
i'm smirking with amusement at the insecurities disguised as intellectual superiority bwahaa!

[chica latina]

Tanya, I soooo agree with you. Some "relaxed" guys will try something wild and start lecturing me on how I didn't follow - when I followed exactly what was led (BS was led, pardon me).
I wonder if followers' perspective is different from leaders' on this topic
I completely agree. I went to a social dance party and there was a guy who was a beginner. He had a great time, he loved it. You could see he was having fun, just moving around to the music but...... poor ladies... I danced with him (and I'm used to dance with beginners in social parties) and he bumped me into other people, I had to disconnect my arms so they will not hurt me, he even will pull me against him and bump into me. I admire that even thought he didnt know much, he was willing to dance but at that point I'll prefer a beginner that is just counting and doing a basic through the whole song (at least I can enjoy listening to the song) than to be afraid of what will happen next by a beginner trying FAncy turns or steps.

[dTas]

how about this...

when two people arm in arm are in the mall, with hundreds of people whirling about, one person see's something in a window across the way and begins to head towards it. instinctively that person begins to "lead" and the other begins to "follow".

they negotiate around other people, turn left, turn right, stop, go and never release their hold on one another. they "danced" across the mall. the connection between them "toned" up to allow one to lead the other. very natural, very easy.

now... not everyone is successful but the concept is there.

why can't some of this be brought into the studio? i keep coming back to "its just that easy"; and there wasn't any frowning or some internal focus necessary. actually the two people could have been holding a conversation while they moved.

i'm not looking for beginners to be professionals. i know that isn't possible. professionals are the top level of dancing fanatics. the ones who stuck it out through all the painful hours. but i don't think beginners have to shut down and focus sooo hard that they take the fun out of the dance. ESPECIALLY beginners. but even intermediate dancers if instilled with more of a "sense" for natural movement.

dancing is not hard, especially at the bronze level. why must we teach it as if it were such a difficult task to master. we burn out and discourage students left and right so only those who "really want to do it" stay with it. if we didn't make it such a task then more people would welcome it and it would be "more funner".

[Chris Stratton]

when two people arm in arm are in the mall, with hundreds of people whirling about, one person see's something in a window across the way and begins to head towards it. instinctively that person begins to "lead" and the other begins to "follow".

they negotiate around other people, turn left, turn right, stop, go and never release their hold on one another. they "danced" across the mall. the connection between them "toned" up to allow one to lead the other. very natural, very easy.

Maybe where you live...

I'm amazed at how badly good lead/follow dancers can mess up a life task like that!

[tanya_the_dancer]

how about this...

when two people arm in arm are in the mall, with hundreds of people whirling about, one person see's something in a window across the way and begins to head towards it. instinctively that person begins to "lead" and the other begins to "follow".

they negotiate around other people, turn left, turn right, stop, go and never release their hold on one another. they "danced" across the mall. the connection between them "toned" up to allow one to lead the other. very natural, very easy.



No, that's not how it naturally works. This is how it works: one person starts changing course. The other person releases connection and says "Honey, we were NOT going that way, we were planning to go THIS way". ;)

[bjp22tango]

ours is a kinda small town (about 100,000), not many dancers in it to begin with.


ROTFLMAO

Try a "kinda small town" of 10,000

Needless to say, I travel for my dance fixes

[Spitfire]

Comments have often been made on the way dancing is taught. I do feel that there are some instructors and not just in the studios who make things hard and thus discouraging newer dancers.

[Spitfire]

Try a "kinda small town" of 10,000

Needless to say, I travel for my dance fixes

Welcome to the club Tango; I have to do the same now.

[dTas]

Comments have often been made on the way dancing is taught. I do feel that there are some instructors and not just in the studios who make things hard and thus discouraging newer dancers.

i think there are more than "some" instructors that do this. and i don't think it is restricted to only instructors. i think in several cases it is WHOLE STUDIOS that make dancing appear difficult.

if it was easy then they wouldn't have anything to sell. well bronze IS easy!

i remember, when working for a studio, being told not to teach more than one or two steps an hour and if they get it then "technique" them to death to slow them down. to make sure it takes them 5 hrs to learn this material or 10 hrs to learn something else.

i believe the student knows what they want to learn and they will learn at their own rate. when they hit a "technique" that is difficult for them then they will ask and that is where they slow down. we don't hold a student back in math if they understand the concepts.

this just makes it harder for the general non-dancing public to want to take up dancing.

"if they like it, they will learn (and at their own rate)"

[Chris Stratton]

we don't hold a student back in math if they understand the concepts.

Maybe in your utopian school district...

[Medira]

i remember, when working for a studio, being told not to teach more than one or two steps an hour and if they get it then "technique" them to death to slow them down. to make sure it takes them 5 hrs to learn this material or 10 hrs to learn something else.
This is part of the reason why I'm leaving my current studio. My instructor has been great, but he's been getting in trouble for teaching me more than he "should", because it goes beyond where the studio has determined I "should" be. I'm tired of having people trying to hold me back and I'm frustrated that it's put my instructor in a difficult position. If I'm paying for a certain number of lessons, I want to spend that time learning and perfecting, not reviewing the same things over and over again because somebody who has never seen me dance has imposed restrictions on it based on some arbitrary instructional schedule.

[saludas]

This is part of the reason why I'm leaving my current studio. My instructor has been great, but he's been getting in trouble for teaching me more than he "should", because it goes beyond where the studio has determined I "should" be. I'm tired of having people trying to hold me back and I'm frustrated that it's put my instructor in a difficult position. If I'm paying for a certain number of lessons, I want to spend that time learning and perfecting, not reviewing the same things over and over again because somebody who has never seen me dance has imposed restrictions on it based on some arbitrary instructional schedule.

Which chain studio is it?

[dTas]

Which chain studio is it?

does it matter?

[Medira]

Which chain studio is it?
I don't know that it matters too much, since it also happened with an independent studio that I left about 3 months ago. I have no studio loyalty because I haven't found a studio that's worth my loyalty. I've been through 6 studios since I started dancing in mid-February.

[redhead]

I've seen it at independent studios too

[SDsalsaguy]

I've seen it at independent studios too
Likewise.

[Chris Stratton]

The difference between trying to insure that students don't rise out of levels before understanding the concepts, and holding them back arbitrarily and counterproductively could be very subtle. You'd think it would come down to motive - educational or business - but it could probably be fairly hard to sort out all the different factors going into a teacher's style of instruction, either for themselves for for lessons given by junior teachers under their control.

But it is one reason I think it's better for teachers to have a lot of autonomy within their workplace. Chances of getting the balance wrong are so much higher than chances of getting it right no matter if it is the teacher or their boss making the decisions, so the only reasonable thing to do is give students a variety of true individuals to choose from - a fighting chance of finding someone who can meet their needs.

[dTas]

I've seen it at independent studios too

yeah, usually the independant studios are following a chain studio model.

there's gotta be a better way to sell dance lessons. i know of a few studio owner friends who've tried different teaching models but have failed due to the "dance studio stigma".

i liked the "gym model" just buy a membership to the studio and you can take all the group classes you want! ($50 a month) privates are ala-cart.

there was another owner who tried the pyramid scheme. that failed miserably.

both models depend on a large student load which means lower prices for all but people were too "scared" to try it.

[Medira]

The difference between trying to insure that students don't rise out of levels before understanding the concepts, and holding them back arbitrarily and counterproductively could be very subtle. You'd think it would come down to motive - educational or business - but it could probably be fairly hard to sort out all the different factors going into a teacher's style of instruction, either for themselves for for lessons given by junior teachers under their control.

But it is one reason I think it's better for teachers to have a lot of autonomy within their workplace. Chances of getting the balance wrong are so much higher than chances of getting it right no matter if it is the teacher or their boss making the decisions, so the only reasonable thing to do is give students a variety of true individuals to choose from - a fighting chance of finding someone who can meet their needs.
I do understand what you're saying Chris. The difference though, is the fact that I've been told "I'm not supposed to teach you this yet, but....", as well as one instance when the studio owner, who seems to find appropriate methods of communication with anybody a chore, started to take my instructor to task for working on a figure with me that I hadn't "paid for", in the middle of my lesson.

Things like this are what keep me looking for a studio that will allow me to learn to the best of my ability.

[Chris Stratton]

The difficulty of hitting the right balance under ideal circumstances doesn't preclude things being far worse under other circumstances!

[Medira]

The difficulty of hitting the right balance under ideal circumstances doesn't preclude things being far worse under other circumstances!
Understood and noted. There are other issues as well though, which I won't get into on a public forum.

[dTas]

i think the level of the student should be decided by the student. at some point the student will realize that the reason why they can not do a step is because they haven't learned a particular technique. then they'll have to slow down and work on that technique.

in my private teachings i've allowed students to accell at their own rate and they always eventually come back to wanting to learn more technique. they may learn 50 patterns before that but eventually they ask "why can't i lead this?", "why doesn't this feel right?", "why doesn't it look right?" that's when i know they're ready to be more serious.

some students ask this right off the bat... others take a little while (and a lot of ladies refusing to dance with them) :)

[lynn]

i have a question though - what happens if a student only wants to learn patterns and not techniques - what should a teacher do if a students want to advance to the more complex patterns? One instructor i spoke with actually has such student and is giving her quite a headache.

[Katarzyna]

Don't know, this of off topic a bit, but last night I talked to a guy that goes to socials from time to time. He said "dance lessons are too expensive, I just buy the tape, watch, learn from tape and come to social to practice" I bet he feel wonderful:shock:

[lynn]

does he feel "wonderful" to dance with??

[dTas]

i have a question though - what happens if a student only wants to learn patterns and not techniques - what should a teacher do if a students want to advance to the more complex patterns? One instructor i spoke with actually has such student and is giving her quite a headache.

i find that a student won't be able to execute a more complex pattern with out the technique. you can teach them the pattern but they'll "fall flat on their face" or at least notice that it doesn't feel right and is clumsy.

at which point they ask, "why doesn't it look/feel right?" and you can start talking about the lack of technique / balance / strength. so if they really want to do the pattern they must learn more about their body and how to control it.

[Katarzyna]

does he feel "wonderful" to dance with??no comment :shock: :shock: :shock:

[dTas]

Don't know, this of off topic a bit, but last night I talked to a guy that goes to socials from time to time. He said "dance lessons are too expensive, I just buy the tape, watch, learn from tape and come to social to practice" I bet he feel wonderful:shock:

i hate it when people think they can learn all there is to know from a video tape.

mostly all you can learn is figures, techniue involves a 2 way conversation. a tape can talk about it but a student also needs feedback from an instructor to tell them whether or not they're doing it right.

plus... there are so many ways of explaining something and usually a tape only covers one or two. there's no guarantee that the way it is explained on a tape is the way the student will understand it.

[lynn]

i hate it when people think they can learn all there is to know from a video tape.

mostly all you can learn is figures, techniue involves a 2 way conversation. a tape can talk about it but a student also needs feedback from an instructor to tell them whether or not they're doing it right.

plus... there are so many ways of explaining something and usually a tape only covers one or two. there's no guarantee that the way it is explained on a tape is the way the student will understand it.

i wonder if there's anyone who has become pretty self-sufficient from just videos/books??

[Katarzyna]

i hate it when people think they can learn all there is to know from a video tape.

mostly all you can learn is figures, techniue involves a 2 way conversation. a tape can talk about it but a student also needs feedback from an instructor to tell them whether or not they're doing it right.

plus... there are so many ways of explaining something and usually a tape only covers one or two. there's no guarantee that the way it is explained on a tape is the way the student will understand it.very true! and it was someone who is a total beginner to make things worse... Sometimes an advanced person can pick up interesting ideas from tapes to enhance the dancing, but a beginnier learning everything from tapes... scary thought...

[dTas]

is there a tape on Nuclear Science i can get? :D

[lynn]

is there a tape on Nuclear Science i can get? :D

:shock: :shock: :shock:

[lynn]

actualy, i kind of have a wacky idea: since there are so many tapes out there - isn't it possible for beginners to learn the steps first - THEN when they hit the plateau, go to an instructor and work on the techniques? I know a lot of ppl who would rather watch videos b/c they're afraid they'll just embarass themselves in a classroom setting.

[Katarzyna]

I think tape might be useful once you already know a bit what you're doing. You have to learn how to learn first...

[lynn]

hmm, learn to "learn" - interesting... maybe i'm biased - but i feel it's more difficult to learn how to lead than to follow (@ beginner's stage, of course).

[dTas]

actualy, i kind of have a wacky idea: since there are so many tapes out there - isn't it possible for beginners to learn the steps first - THEN when they hit the plateau, go to an instructor and work on the techniques? I know a lot of ppl who would rather watch videos b/c they're afraid they'll just embarass themselves in a classroom setting.

i agree with you Lynn, that would be great!

i wouldn't mind making some tapes to hand out to my students so they can go home and "study" and come back with more "intellegent" questions.

that way the students would feel like they're getting thier money's worth and i wouldn't feel like i'm wasting my time.

students could come in for their first lesson and pick up a DVD with their homework and come back in 2 weeks with questions and pick up a new DVD. :D

hmmmm... might be onto something there Lynn!!!

[lynn]

our studio is actually doing something like this

We have DVDs that students can purchase - the instructors made them - pretty cheap, actually. They cover all the patterns we learned in class so the students can go home and practice. The idea is that since we cover a lot of steps in one class, it's only normal for students to forget some of them. The DVDs are used so the students can familiarize themselves with the patterns. The teacher also hand out notes at the end of class so we all have something to refer to when we go home.

This is why my private lesson is all about technique - my teacher expects me to know the patterns inside and out (actually, i get the "look" if i'm wishy washy with one of the patterns....)

[Katarzyna]

hmm, learn to "learn" - interesting... maybe i'm biased - but i feel it's more difficult to learn how to lead than to follow (@ beginner's stage, of course).I think its easier to sort of follow than sort of lead at the beginning. often video tape will not give you enough information as what to do with your body. and a lot of times what you think you feel is not what you're doing...

not sure I'm correct, but I think you need some tiny understanding of dance/body to do what you see an hear when there isn't someone to point things out and see what you're doing

[Katarzyna]

our studio is actually doing something like this

We have DVDs that students can purchase - the instructors made them - pretty cheap, actually. They cover all the patterns we learned in class so the students can go home and practice. The idea is that since we cover a lot of steps in one class, it's only normal for students to forget some of them. The DVDs are used so the students can familiarize themselves with the patterns.

This is why my private lesson is all about technique - my teacher expects me to know the patterns inside and out (actually, i get the "look" if i'm wishy washy with one of the patterns....)see, I think this can be helpful in your studio, but there is someone who is monitoring the progress and helping you choose the DVD taht's right for what you're learning.. and those are patterns you covered in class, so you at least have a vague memory of how it works when you watch tapes

[lynn]

that's true - when i first started, i watched a beginner's ballroom tape (can't remember the name now) - i think the only thing i learned was the box step in waltz :oops: ....

[tanya_the_dancer]

i find that a student won't be able to execute a more complex pattern with out the technique. you can teach them the pattern but they'll "fall flat on their face" or at least notice that it doesn't feel right and is clumsy.

at which point they ask, "why doesn't it look/feel right?" and you can start talking about the lack of technique / balance / strength. so if they really want to do the pattern they must learn more about their body and how to control it.

Here's a question then:

once you have learned how to do something one way, it is very hard to relearn how to do it another way. I think it has to do with the muscle memory. So, if a student insists on moving on to more compex patterns without getting the technique right, that's setting him up for a lot of frustration down the road, when (s)he tries to fix bad technique which by then is ingrained in muscle memory (just speaking from experience). So wouldn't it be a good idea to tell the student "I can teach you that pattern but there's that technique issue you need to get first" or something to that extent?

[lynn]

From my conversation with this particular instructor, the issue was the student does not want to learn the technique - he feels that if he practiced the pattern enough times, he'd "get it".

[chica latina]

I don't agree with many of you. I want to beleive that everybody would like to look good while dancing; which will never happen without the correct technique.... and by showing steps that they are not ready for, don't know how to lead... not only will be a nightmare to the other person they are trying to dance with but also may develop a lot of bad habits. I could see people giving up, because even though they have taken a lot of lessons (without technique) they feel they can't dance with anyone (except their teacher).

[Katarzyna]

that's true - when i first started, i watched a beginner's ballroom tape (can't remember the name now) - i think the only thing i learned was the box step in waltz :oops: ....You're not the only one.. :)

[lynn]

so i take it you didn't volunteer to dance with the gentleman who learned from the tapes :wink: ??

[Katarzyna]

so i take it you didn't volunteer to dance with the gentleman who learned from the tapes :wink: ??Well, Actually I danced with him once couple weeks ago, and now I understand why it was SOOOO BAD!

[lynn]

I don't agree with many of you. I want to beleive that everybody would like to look good while dancing; which will never happen without the correct technique.... and by showing steps that they are not ready for, don't know how to lead... not only will be a nightmare to the other person they are trying to dance with but also may develop a lot of bad habits. I could see people giving up, because even though they have taken a lot of lessons (without technique) they feel they can't dance with anyone (except their teacher).

"they have taken a lot of lessons (without technique) they feel they can't dance with anyone (except their teacher)." & probably they don't look very good??

The ideal situation is that the teacher teaches both technique & patterns but the problem is that technique isn't easy and some students feel frustrated early on and quit prematurely. My teacher has told me that she lost a lot of students b/c she insisted on teaching them technique from an early stage - maybe it's b/c our dancing scene is more social than competitive so dancers don't feel the need for technique? I'm not sure. But the truth is, a teacher cannot force a student to learn what he/she doesn't want to and sometimes can only let them realize that themselves.

[lynn]

Well, Actually I danced with him once couple weeks ago, and now I understand why it was SOOOO BAD!

ouch, that doesn't sound like a very pleasant experience - good thing you didn't suffer any injuries.....

[Katarzyna]

I can protect myself :)

[SDsalsaguy]

I can protect myself :) That's good. Just know that, if needed, I could always loan you Adventure Kitty to help out! ;)

[lynn]

oh, i think Kat can protect herself :wink: !!

[Sagitta]

that's true - when i first started, i watched a beginner's ballroom tape (can't remember the name now) - i think the only thing i learned was the box step in waltz :oops: ....I learnt the box step and a couple others...plus rise and fall..plus foxtrot...and combined them. Now, of course I have forgotten it all...but...I'll get back there..

[SDsalsaguy]

oh, i think Kat can protect herself :wink: !!
Sure, but if you put them together you'd get Adventure Kitty-Kat! ;)

[Katarzyna]

oh, i think Kat can protect herself :wink: !!I'm a big, and strong girl :)

[Katarzyna]

Sure, but if you put them toge