To help or not to help...that is the question!

[blossomingsalsadancer]

I've recently started argentine tango lessons (milonga style) and I have to say that so far, I love it (a possible new dance addiction, woohoo!)

My teacher emphasizes again and again that followers should not memorize patterns since our job is to simply respond to the lead and we followers can never predict what they want do. Anyway, during the group lessons, there was this one man I was dancing with that, unlike the other leaders in class, I couldn't feel his lead at all. I couldn't tell whether he wanted me to do reverse ochos, walk back and pause in a cruzada, etc. I couldn't even tell what foot he wants me to step back with in the beginning because I don't think he knows which foot my weight is on at any given time. Most of the time, I had a good idea what it was that he wanted me to do since it usually was one of the several patterns/steps that the teacher just taught. However, I was trying to resist anticipating the lead and was, instead trying to wait for the lead before I did anything. Frustrated that I wasn't doing what he wanted me to do, he resorted to talking me through the steps to make sure I did what he intended me to do. I noticed that he was happier dancing with the other women in class who were in effect leading themselves (doing their part without waiting for his lead). I am contemplating maybe doing the same thing as these women just for the group lessons (for the sake of progress in class) but I am worried that although I think I'm helping the leader, in reality I may be setting him back in terms of his development. I also worry that when it comes time for me to hit the dance floor, I may not be as responsive/sensitive a follower because I've been used to anticipating the lead during class.

Questions (applicable to group class only):

For leaders-- Is it more helpful to you for the lady to do her part (with or without your lead) so you can get a feel for what she's supposed to be doing and therefore learn the proper lead for a given move? Or is it more helpful if she remains unresponsive until you give her the proper lead even if this means a long proces of trial and error? I guess the question is during lessons, should we "help" you with the steps/moves?

For followers--if you do help leaders with the steps during group lessons, does this hurt/hinder your ability to "truly" follow on the dance floor?

[ssjss]

Speaking for my self, I'd prefer some one that lets me lead. During group class I'll pause for a while if I start to think that the follower is trying to anticipate. It's one of my pet peeves. I'll also throw in different things to try to kept the follower on her toes. So no don't just do it for the sake of the class. Your only holding the leader back from learning how to lead.

[Pathological Dancer]

I am a leader and don't want to be led. One needs to learn to lead in any of the dances. If it's the hard way so be it. It's only skill and there's always hope in learning it. I usually assume that my leading is faulty if I am dancing with someone of the same or advanced level. If she's lower level it's probably my leading or her lack of familiarity with the steps. In the latter situation I scale down the complexity of the steps.

[bordertangoman]

I want always the follower to follow NOT, no, never to anticipate or second guess what I might want her to do. This hsa helped me be a better leader because some moves in AT are complex and I need to know, if it ain't happening if its my lead that's wrong or her follow and if she's doing somethin which I havnet' lead then its not helping either of us.

I will of course adapt to my partners level of experience and simplify if necessary, or even stop if she's anticipating my leads. With some followers they panic if I pause and will try this or that step, but I'm not moving so why are they. Its mean but they get the message.

[Shooshoo]

As a follower, it's difficult not to help, at least during the class. I try not interefere while dancing/practising out of class. But during the lesson it's not easy to just follow.

I'll try to do that next time and see how it goes.

[jhpark]

I get upset with followers who try to help me in a group class. I learn things slowly, but it absolutely does not help me to have someone try to remind me what to do (unless I specifically ask). Backleading is also not appreciated... If something isn't going right, I'll then ask the follower to remind me of what we should be doing, or get the instructor. Sometimes because I don't remember how to do the step, and other times because I think I remember how to do it and my follower just isn't following. :) The instructor is usually able to help both of us out, so it's nice that way.

[Zaratustra shaking it]

The follower can always help the man by talking to him and telling him how to lead and what is he doing wrong. If the follower is not being lead properly she shouldnt do the steps. The man must get used to lead and if he just cant lead he should return to the basics. I have many times returned to the basics when I coudnt get it right.
I think is a problem of the man and the best way to help him is dancing properly.

[Zaratustra shaking it]

Heres a link of how to dance properly. I think it would help many people in many ways, its got some really good moves actually...

http://www.zefrank.com/indexdance.html

[diputs]

I am still working on the basic twirl from the Zefrank site.

I have not done Tango yet, but this is just a general comment. I lead. And I am a beginner.

I prefer if the follow lets me try to lead the moves, especially in class. There was one move last night that I did not know how to start, so I asked the follows for help, but then tried to lead the rest. I tend to pick up the steps fairly quickly, so I spend most of my time trying to figure out how to lead.

I am finding that my biggest problem occurs when I am dancing with women from my classes at the practice party afterwards. If we do the steps in the order that we learned them in class, everything is fine. But if I try to lead them out of order, or lead moves we learned in other classes, all hell breaks loose. A big problem is that I am not being specific enough in my leads, but the other big part is that some women do not know how to follow. In my classes, the teacher shows us a step, then we practice it till we get it, then she adds another step and so on. We constantly rotate partners. I am always amused how the follow will go through the steps no matter what I lead.

And then there is the rhythm. I am generally fairly good at staying with the rhythm. In class I seem to have little problems. But then at the practice party, it seems like the rhythm does not exist. THe music in the classes is slower than the music at the parties, but it is not that much faster. Yet I canot seem to keep the moves on the rhythm.

Learning steps is all well and good, but I am starting to think that partner dancing is more about the lead/follow dynamic than it is about the steps.

Let's just say I had a rough night last night, and the more I learn, the worse it seems to get.

[jhpark]

Learning steps is all well and good, but I am starting to think that partner dancing is more about the lead/follow dynamic than it is about the steps.



This is absolutely true.

My tango teachers have taken to saying that at some point, we will be ultimately concerned with how to lead the follow to do what we want her to do, and our own movements and footwork and such will just spring from that, and we won't think of it consciously anymore. I suppose it will take a long time to get there, but it sounds good to me.

[blossomingsalsadancer]

Thanks for all your input thus far!

Hmm, the consensus among the leaders who have posted replies to date seems to be that followers shouldn't help them during class. However, there are several people who chose the poll option that we followers should help--can these people elaborate please?

Zaratustra that site is hilarious! LOL!

[ssjss]

Instead of trying to back lead or just doing the steps. Try telling the leader what you need to feel. I have found taking a few moments and talking to followers very helpful. Do you have praticas where you can talk to each other or is it just a class?

[Ms_Sunlight]

Aargh ssjss, but that's a minefield right there! It's hard to tell someone what they're doing wrong without them feeling bad about it. I try to avoid it, and when I feel I have to I keep it lighthearted and with a smile. The reason I try to avoid it is that I've often found leaders doing it to me in a way that I didn't find pleasant. Others have recommended asking the instructor to step in, but in a large group class that's often not an option because their time is limited.

I think sometimes you just have to let people come to things in their own time. If you build a good friendly relationship with someone, they'll start to be able to ask for help and then you can lay on the advice freely.

[bordertangoman]

Aargh ssjss, but that's a minefield right there! It's hard to tell someone what they're doing wrong without them feeling bad about it. I try to avoid it, and when I feel I have to I keep it lighthearted and with a smile. The reason I try to avoid it is that I've often found leaders doing it to me in a way that I didn't find pleasant. Others have recommended asking the instructor to step in, but in a large group class that's often not an option because their time is limited.

I think sometimes you just have to let people come to things in their own time. If you build a good friendly relationship with someone, they'll start to be able to ask for help and then you can lay on the advice freely.


There begins the art of diplomacy: start with "can I suggest something....?"
and if they are willing to listen then go ahead, but don't tell somebody what to do (even if you're right) if they don't want to know. Offer words of encouragement.

[Sagitta]

Yup followers can help. By sometimes doing the step a leader can feel how it is supposed to eb done and then repeat. There are soem danecs which I'm pretty bad in. Take hustle for instance. THere was this lady who used to come and when I did hustle with her it took me half a song to get the basic and feel but then I could do a lot more then just a simple beginner transposing my experience from other dances. same with swing really. If I connect with an experienced follower who back leads a bit I get the feeling of how I'm supposed to do the danec and it goes a lot better. But, then, different peoel have different styles of learning so this may not work well for raw beginners with no experienec in dancing in general...or....

[bentivoglia1]

In my opinion as Varón, it is essential that Damas don´t lead, no matter how crappy their partner turns out to be. If they do, it will slowly creep in their own system, which bothers future men who do know how to lead; moreover, you´re denying poor guys who have trouble to combine steps, posture and compás a change ever to learn how to do it properly. Of course this is bound to cause frustration at both sides, but this is exactly one of the reasons why good teachers have their students change partner frequently :-)

[bentivoglia1]

Damas can help by trying to describe what they think they should feel in order to execute the proper steps. Also, it can be very *******ing to switch roles altogether for a tango or two; men who bodily understand what their follows need to feel, may in the end have a much better grasp of what they need to do. Also, it helps follows to think what kind of movement/impulse/change in embrace could help them best, since often there are various possibilities to indicate the same step.

Last night while dancing, I suddenly thought of the ultimate argument to settle this discussion. A Dama who maintains proper Posicion is in no way physically able to take the lead, except for certain well-defined points in the dance (Varón making cruzadas, mainly). Therefore, Damas trying to do this are not helping their partner, nor are they doing any service to their own role

[ssjss]

[QUOTE= Also, it helps follows to think what kind of movement/impulse/change in embrace could help them best, since often there are various possibilities to indicate the same step.[/QUOTE]
I've tried this and it does help alot. The one things is have a follower that is willing and can lead, in which is not easy. But you can always ask the teacher.

[It's Wonderful]

As beginning follow, I used to walk through patterns (in all dances, not just AT) regardless of what the lead was doing. I thought it would help me, and I was pretty sure the lead would appreciate it. While some beginner leads do want the follow to do the pattern he's trying to lead without actually following, most leads find it incredibly irritating (found that one out the hard way!). As to wether or not it hurts your ability to truly follow, all I know is as soon as I started consciously following all the time (even if I knew I wasn't doing quite what the lead wanted), my ability to social dance with a variety of leads improved tremendously.

[new-ish]

I had a follower who was convinced that a cut ocho had to end with her in cross. I went to lead a sacada and we had a tug-of-war on the dance floor. It was not a poetic moment.

Followers need to follow. Otherwise leaders will never learn their part.

[elenapankey2004]

:p :cheers:
The Arg. Tango is a silent meditation. It should be danced/practiced silently for better concentration and result...

Any follower should think about her own presents, and her own techniques, and listen to the energy inside the frame, to what a man trying to say... Most women learn faster, get ignorant and put men down. At the same time, they need to learn how to be more creative, think about own adorns, and support a man... who maybe whole his life was under his mother, sister, teacher control, but finally get out of it, and now he is trying to be a boss and a designer of his own life, dance and at least his 3 min of Tango...
Elena, San Diego,
TangoCAMINITO.com

[timbp]

For leaders-- Is it more helpful to you for the lady to do her part (with or without your lead) so you can get a feel for what she's supposed to be doing and therefore learn the proper lead for a given move? Or is it more helpful if she remains unresponsive until you give her the proper lead even if this means a long proces of trial and error? I guess the question is during lessons, should we "help" you with the steps/moves?

So far I have had only one argentine tango class, so I'm writing from my experience in ceroc/modern jive. I don't know if it will be different in tango -- I expect it will be the same.

I want to and expect to lead. I do not want the follower to just step through her part, and if I find a partner is doing so, I'll try to prevent it.

However, there are times, in more complex moves, where I have difficulty working out where each us should be going. In those cases, in can be helpful if my partner just steps through her part, letting me step through mine, so I can understand where we're each moving. And in those cases I will ask my partner to do that. Once I understand where we're supposed to move, I'll then get back to learning how to lead so we move in those ways.

As I said, I don't know if this will translate directly to tango, but I suspect it will.

Tim

[bordertangoman]

So far I have had only one argentine tango class, so I'm writing from my experience in ceroc/modern jive. I don't know if it will be different in tango -- I expect it will be the same.

I want to and expect to lead. I do not want the follower to just step through her part, and if I find a partner is doing so, I'll try to prevent it.

However, there are times, in more complex moves, where I have difficulty working out where each us should be going. In those cases, in can be helpful if my partner just steps through her part, letting me step through mine, so I can understand where we're each moving. And in those cases I will ask my partner to do that. Once I understand where we're supposed to move, I'll then get back to learning how to lead so we move in those ways.

As I said, I don't know if this will translate directly to tango, but I suspect it will.

Tim

the art of a good teacher is to sort out when a problem occurs with a couple in class who needs the correction - especially if you're doing something new.

[new-ish]

However, there are times, in more complex moves, where I have difficulty working out where each us should be going.

My perception after about three months of Tango is that the leader needs to be exactly aware of where his follower is, what foot she is placing her weight on and what your body position is telling her about where she should go.

You may be rushing to do the fancier stuff too early. Everyone progresses at a different rate, but my goal for six months is to have a decent walk, lead a smooth back cross and lead a clean molinete.

[Tanguera]

I usually don't help leaders at lesson, but I try to give them a feedback when I feel that the lead is not clear by telling them that I did not understand. I help a leader only if he is on his very first Tango lesson.

[MacMoto]

Hmm, the consensus among the leaders who have posted replies to date seems to be that followers shouldn't help them during class. However, there are several people who chose the poll option that we followers should help--can these people elaborate please?

I haven't voted, but my take is that walking through the move is not *helping* the leader at all. It's the opposite of helping as it deprives the leaders of the chance to learn to lead the move.

If a leader is not getting a move in a class, I will probably tell him what he needs to do so I can get his lead. That to me is helping the leader.

[Sagitta]

I don't believe that I answered the poll, but I think that there are ways that followers can help a leader learn, just as a leader in any dance that I do I can help a follower dance better/learn. It isn't esay and not something that should be taken as permission for any follower to do, but I have been fortunate to be blessed by a couple wonderful follows. It has happened in WCS, tango, salsa, cha cha...and when I dance with them I dance no-matter my level. And after I have danced with them I'm better. :-)

[Ampster]

In my case, I greatly appreciate it if the follower tells me if she is able to read me or not. Sometimes, my brain drifts from concentrating on the lead, to thinking about steps. That then causes indecisiveness, leading to a "Fuzzy" lead, that blows it up for both follow and lead.

When my lead tells me, or hints that my lead is fading, then I consider it a reference point to make adjustments.

The beauty of AT is heavily dependent upon the lead/follow relationship, anything to make this better is welcome. Different partners will have different styles, this extends your experience and repertoire in being a good lead.

I've actually learned to swallow my ego a long time ago, and use the the follower's feedback as learning tools. AT is so dynamic, that there always is a learning curve, regardless of level.

[blue]

Hmm, the consensus among the leaders who have posted replies to date seems to be that followers shouldn't help them during class. However, there are several people who chose the poll option that we followers should help--can these people elaborate please?

It would have been even more interesting to have the answers divided into leaders/followers... myself, I did not vote since my answer would have been "it depends". IMHO all the guys will say they do not like if a follower "helps". In reality many of them do, especially the not so advanced leaders... since these followers will make them feel like better dancers. It is like, as a newbie follower you have to choose between following the way the good dancers will want you to and the way the newbie leads will want you to. Maybe it sounds like an easy choice, to follow the way the good leads want you to? The problem is, it is not them you will be dancing with. You want to be popular. You want people to dance with you at the milongas, even if not all the dances are heavenly - after all, you are a semi-beginner, what can you expect? You want to find a partner to go to practicas with. I think this has a lot to do with how partner dancing in general and AT in particular is being (mis)taught; the problem is more apparent with those who are taught with the salida as a "basic step".

However, there are times, in more complex moves, where I have difficulty working out where each us should be going. In those cases, in can be helpful if my partner just steps through her part, letting me step through mine, so I can understand where we're each moving. And in those cases I will ask my partner to do that. Once I understand where we're supposed to move, I'll then get back to learning how to lead so we move in those ways.

If classes whose subject is moves and step, I think this often is an extremely useful approach. For a leader in a class of a slightly too high level - and that will happen sometimes - or for someone who simply is not good at digesting visual information, this will probably be the only way for the leader to get the moves down. Then you can start working on them. I completely agree with timbp that the major issue is to be clear and honest about when the follower is helping out, and when not. There are lots of teachers who make this impossible though, their mouths saying "the follower should never go by herself" but at the same time teaching moves in a way that often makes this impossible. IMNSHO it is better not to teach in a way that encourages this kind of "helping".

Generally, the longer a sequence of steps is the more the followers have to "cheat", or the couple will never be able to finish the pattern making both of them and especially the leader frustrated. I have a clear impression the teacher couples who teach this way are usually dominated by the male teacher. Thankfully long patterns is not a so common way of teaching AT from what I have seen, but for rank beginners even the eight step salida is a way to long and complicated pattern, especially - but not only - if it includes the cross. This teaching method creates leaders who say they do not want followers who step without being led, but can not dance with followers who do not. Some of them eventually find a way out of this trap, others do not.

[MapleLeaf Salsero]

I voted "No". The leader will discover it on his own, if not sooner, than later.

[elegant]

You ladies are missing the point, When a man pauses that is your turn to throw in as many adornments as you can quickly and elegantly do. Leaders who just keep on moving all the time are bad leaders, if you are just following period, you are not dancing. This from Tango Soul.com