doggone spin turn [Archive]

VTDancer

11-04-2005, 12:55 PM

A couple of things that I think seem to help. After 1,2,3 of the Natural Turn, try as much as possible to make your movements in straight lines. Often this figure becomes one continuous rotation. This makes balance difficult and almost guarantees no hover on the 5th step. Two other related things: snap your hips to turn at the end of 4 and keep your weight, as much as possible for the lady, on the right foot as you do that. Many ladies let their weight go back too soon on 4. This really messes up the balance of the couple.

Chris Stratton

11-04-2005, 02:17 PM

I would suggest splitting the rotation into a CBM taken before the fourth step is placed, and a spin taken after the fifth step is placed. This helps with achieving the straight line motions, and it's actually remarkably similar to a foraward natural turn. Think of dancing over the step four without changing direction at all - rotating the body, but moving (probably down LOD) throughout. Step 5 is then very much like a forward step 2 would be, only with a spin developing as you arrive and brush your feet closed.

There is more pivot of the foot on step 4 than in a forward natural, but I wouldn't emphasize it - the figure is not the same as the natural pivot turn, in that you don't really complete a pivot on 4 and move backwards into five, just kind of start to pivot on four, go forwards into five, and end up backwards only as you fully arrive on it.

madmaximus

11-04-2005, 06:09 PM

spin turns...from half natural to spintrun to back/reverse corte in the waltz....any and all advice on how to do this well (ladies part)...I know what NOT to do and even what to do...just cant really do the thing that effects a lasting feeling to go to....
To better answer your question, could you clarify what you're looking for?
Your question is not unclear, it is just a little general.
There are many ways, levels, and expressions of doing this amalgamation.
For instance, from a structural standpoint taking this along the side of a room, is different from taking it at an angle, is different from taking this through a corner.
From an artistic standpoint, you can emphasize the rotation of the spin, the hover during the spin, or the entry into the back/reverse corte...

m

fascination

11-04-2005, 08:44 PM

To better answer your question, could you clarify what you're looking for?
Your question is not unclear, it is just a little general.
There are many ways, levels, and expressions of doing this amalgamation.
For instance, from a structural standpoint taking this along the side of a room, is different from taking it at an angle, is different from taking this through a corner.
From an artistic standpoint, you can emphasize the rotation of the spin, the hover during the spin, or the entry into the back/reverse corte...

mstructurally, we are taking it at an angle...artistically, what would you emphasize?

lynn

11-04-2005, 09:13 PM

hijacking the thread a little bit - how is it different from going along the room vs. turning a corner?? Then again, i've never seen it done OTHER than @ corners....

Chris Stratton

11-04-2005, 10:15 PM

I don't think of it being very different up to the entry of the spin - the exiting alignment is chosen by the spin itself, without much variation in where you place the spin (step 4) on the floor. This follows the general of the first two steps of each figure following the same line as the final step of the last figure (usually down LOD), with the third step establishing a new line for the next figure. I suppose you might have more energy going into the spin if you were planning to turn it further though. The minimum of course would be no spin - just a sort of hover and then lower back out.

madmaximus

11-05-2005, 03:49 PM

structurally, we are taking it at an angle...artistically, what would you emphasize?
Well then, first the obvious and general things.

End the spin turn at LOD instead of DC--if you're following with the reverse corte.
Unless you put some steps before the corte, taking the DC route doesn't put you deep enough into center to be out of traffic.
It's safer.

As some have mentioned take straight steps.
Additionally, make your 4 and 5 the longest you can (more on this later).
Here, synchronization with your partner's center is vital in generating the power and swing.
Do your CBMs as appropriate.
Take a long first step into the reverse corte.

Since you asked for an artistic opinion, we need a disclaimer. :)
The following is provided so you know what options you have.
Some judges and/or coaches will agree with it and some, most definitely will not.
Please dance it as you see appropriate.

What I would emphasize often depends upon the where I'm doing this in the phrasing of the music.
The generic answer: since this in the Waltz, emphasize the swing and rotation.
That means steps 2, 4, and 5.
This is why I suggested the longer steps--it promotes rotational power, via swing and CBM.
For step 4, I (as lead) prefer to step off-track/off-line (curving and stepping to the side) to create the space and speed for the lady (see my last point as to the reason).
Other gentlemen prefer to stay on-line (in front of the lady)--but I feel this muffles the power possible in this step.

In this amalgamation, you show emphasis in two ways: longer apparent movement (and notice I said apparent), and longer hover time.

First the longer hover time.
Make the timing 1[23]& for 456--using [23] to hover.

Lastly, the longer movement but also the controversial part:

Use POST-STEP CBM on 1 and 4--it creates the impression of longer movement.

There are three types of CBM based on its timing to the stepping foot.
Pre-step, On-Step, and Post-step.
These simply describe when the rotation of the body happens in relation to when the foot is placed--to generate power and movement.
Briefly, in Post-step CBM, you're dancing 4 with a very strong right-side lead.
And YES, this means that the man has to do a strong Post-step CBM on 5 if you do it on 4.

There are many other implications.
PM me if you want some of the details--as this reply has gotten long.

Hope this helps.

M

fascination

11-05-2005, 04:29 PM

M- thank you

fascination

12-18-2005, 07:43 PM

okay 2000 spin turns later and I still hate it....more spin turn words of wisdom plz....:(

elegance

12-19-2005, 01:03 PM

Could you let us know which part is uncomfortable?

A couple of things that have helped me: strong right side lead in as maximus suggested (i think...); making sure i worked all the way through right foot on step 4 rather than transferring too quickly; relaxing and letting my partner complete the turn (i was trying to control it too much); not rising out of our legs (that was both of us).

diputs

12-19-2005, 01:12 PM

okay 2000 spin turns later and I still hate it.

When I first read this, my intial thought was that this is why I am glad that I lead. I get to avoid all the steps that I cannot do!

VTDancer

12-19-2005, 01:29 PM

I am not sure this will help, since I don't really understand what particular problem you are having. ...but, if it make you feel better, our coach is fond of saying that the Spin Turn is an impossible figure. What I think she means by that is that the rotation is always putting you on the wrong side of your partner. In a way the technique of the Spin Turn is keeps attempting to get you back where you belong in relation to your partner. That is why, for example, that on the 6th step the man's step is side and slightly back while the lady's is diagnoally forward. This helps to restore the correct offset. In any case, you just have to accept that in Spin Turns there are times when it feels like you are on the wrong side of your partner, and that is OK.

cantskiforlife

12-19-2005, 03:25 PM

I don't know how you are with angles... My coach hates it when I say, is that 1/4, 1/8, 1/3, or 3/8's of a turn....but they get back at me later :)

Anyway, from what I understand the first three steps are identical to the natural turn.

On the fouth step, the man steps back and slightly out of the way (slight lean to the left) and turns a 1/2 turn in the process (from backing LOD to facing LOD). The woman walks directly through the man as if he was not there and follows his lead in this 1/2 turn. He should be out of her way when she finishes placing her foot...If he isn't, just knee him once and he will move next time :)

On the fifth step, the woman needs to get out of the mans way so that he can complete the spin turn. If you are continuing down LOD, the woman will do a 3/8 turn to end facing DC. This is similar to what I said about the man above.

The man walks straight through where the woman was at the beginning of the measure and then rotates 3/8 of a turn. However, this is where the problems usually start:

The woman must carry her own weight around the turn. It is the mans job to direct her and tell her how much turn. It is not his job to actually turn her.

The man's 4th step is for lack of another word, a heel pivot, and as a result, there is no rise until the 5th step. The 5th step is only partially weighted (lets say 70%). Both the girl and guy must make sure not to over-weight this foot as it will cause all sort sorts of problems (the couple falls backward, or can't get around in time with the music, etc..)

The hesitation is more of an illusion created by the direction of travel between the man and the woman. Think of it more as a change of direction. You are turning and rising in one direction and when you reach a particular point, there is a weight shifts and momentum carries you (from the guys perspective) back and to the left. There is no actual pause at the top.

I don't know if this helps or if others will contradict what I say. This is how the step plays itself out in my mind. I'd like to think its correct :P

delamusica

12-22-2005, 11:26 PM

This isn't as technical, but I have a problem with throwing my weight into spin turns too hard. I've been working on trying to stay more upright throughout the turn, trusting the momentum of the spin to take care of itself without a big push from me.

I don't know if this applies to you or at all or if it makes sense, but there's my 2cents of advice on spin turns. :)

Chris Stratton

12-23-2005, 09:13 AM

The man's 4th step is for lack of another word, a heel pivot

This is incorrect. While the heel is down, the turn is taken with the weight in the ball of the foot - this was quite clear in older editions of the technique book, the current one appears to have accidentally lost the second part in the natural spin turn, though the complete note is there for the natural pivot turn. In reality though, I would recommend doing only a limited amount of pivoting action and making space in the body instead, making the step much more like 4 of a natural turn.

And there is another figure which does have the man's weight going back to that heel - it's a common variation on the closed impetus and comes in both artistic license and beginner mistake forms.

and as a result, there is no rise until the 5th step.

This is true however.

The 5th step is only partially weighted (lets say 70%). Both the girl and guy must make sure not to over-weight this foot as it will cause all sort sorts of problems (the couple falls backward, or can't get around in time with the music, etc..)

It is true that you need to be carefull not to bring your weight past the foot, and for many that will feel like not getting completely onto it, however you must not leave weight in the other foot. The man's foot repositions between step 4 and 6 and he can't do that if he keeps weight in it. The lady needs to brush with her weight in only one ball of foot, not both. This is particularly true in some varients of the spin turn that do not actually have a complete brushing action - the lady's free leg needs to be really free there. As a thought, try to aim your arrival just a touch short so that you would eventually fall back out the way you entered, rather than over your foot to the other side. For beginner men it can be helpful to think of softening the knee as they arrive over the heel lead on step 5 - almost dance the knee under the lady, but keep the body back so as not to push her over.

Purr

12-23-2005, 02:03 PM

On the spin turn, as you rise, inhale. As you lower, exhale. It sounds silly, but it really helped my shaping when I was learning it.

I like your suggestion very much. I will give it a try during my next lesson on standard.

Purr

12-27-2005, 07:33 AM

I tried Another Elizabeth's suggestion during my lesson yesterday on int. waltz, and it really helped with shaping the natural spin turn. My teacher and another teacher commented on it. I just said the difference was breathing.

Terpsichorean Clod

02-09-2007, 05:43 PM

This is incorrect. While the heel is down, the turn is taken with the weight in the ball of the foot - this was quite clear in older editions of the technique book, the current one appears to have accidentally lost the second part in the natural spin turn, though the complete note is there for the natural pivot turn. In reality though, I would recommend doing only a limited amount of pivoting action and making space in the body instead, making the step much more like 4 of a natural turn.

And there is another figure which does have the man's weight going back to that heel - it's a common variation on the closed impetus and comes in both artistic license and beginner mistake forms.
%#&@! :mad: I wish I'd read this post earlier. Last night, I had my 7th Encounter With Standard (waltz). Mind, this was only Encounter #3 with the Natural Spin Turn. "Third time's a charm" has no basis!

I'd read in the Gray Book that the guy's step 4 was THT, so when I played around with it, I ended up pivoting on the heel. Then one of the class instructors said that we were to pivot on the ball, describing it as Step 4 - Toe, Step 5 - HeelToe. I pulled out my Gray Book to ask for reconciliation of those two competing descriptions. The other class instructor caught sight of us peering at the book and scolded me for bringing up a question that should be covered in privates. :oops: So for the rest of the class, I did strictly Toe on Step 4, with rather unfortunate consequences - starting Step 4 backing LOD, I generally ended Step 6 backing DC aLOD. :shock: It wasn't until a few hours later, that night, that I got hold of the first instructor who clarified that the weight was on the ball, but that the heel "kissed" the floor. :sigh:

fascination

02-09-2007, 05:54 PM

uh yea...as I say...it is my first five figure ($$$$) step...took forever to do well...like the rest of my life...but at least now...it is servicable...many many frustrating moments

Terpsichorean Clod

02-09-2007, 06:13 PM

uh yea...as I say...it is my first five figure ($$$$) step...took forever to do well...like the rest of my life...but at least now...it is servicable...many many frustrating moments
Wonderful! So I have $9,936 left to go (or more :shock:) to achieve some degree of passableness...or maybe tolerability, more like... :mad:

fascination

02-09-2007, 08:52 PM

meh, or you could lower your standard , or just be more competant in a timelier fashion than I

Terpsichorean Clod

02-10-2007, 02:55 AM

meh, or you could lower your standard , or just be more competant in a timlier fashion than I
Or I could hobble back to my American security blanket. :cool:

fascination

02-10-2007, 08:23 AM

think about it though...you need the same concepts in both styles...you need to be able to pivot...you need to be able to navigate inside and outside parts of a turn, you need cbm like crazy, yada yada...its really nothing new.... yes its things you know in a different order (that makes it hard as heck) and feels especially awful when done poorly b/c you are in contact, and it's done poorly often b/c her part is hard too...it'll come...listen, this devil (or the concepts therein) are coming after you if you want to get better no matter where you hide...I have already tried

Terpsichorean Clod

02-10-2007, 12:07 PM

think about it though...you need the same concepts in both styles...you need to be able to pivot...you need to be able to navigate inside and outside parts of a turn, you need cbm like crazy, yada yada...its really nothing new....
Good point. Now that you mention it, I think there are similar figures at the end of Bronze Foxtrot (DVIDA) and Silver Waltz. :sigh:
yes its things you know in a different order (that makes it hard as heck) and feels especially awful when done poorly b/c you are in contact, and it's done poorly often b/c her part is hard too...it'll come...listen, this devil (or the concepts therein) are coming after you if you want to get better no matter where you hide...I have already tried
"Contact"? Well, there's another monster. :lol: Oh well, I guess I'll cross that bridge when I get there.

Thank you for the advice and encouragement, fascination! :D

"...but quick was the consolation of there being nothing like practice." (Northanger Abbey)

Chris Stratton

02-10-2007, 12:39 PM

waltzguy

02-11-2007, 11:00 AM

It's a lot easier and more powerful a step if you reduce the amount of "pivot" of the standing foot against the floor, and instead increase the pre-turn of the foot before it is placed, and the degree to which the body turns over the foot. See if you can dance something that starts like the back half of a natural, but developes the pointing alignment into step 5 on a heel lead to end up as a spin turn.

I believe that according to official expectations, the guys are supposed to spin on the left foot nearly 180 degrees (step 4). However, that is in reality very hard to do with a partner, since she has to turn that much and be on the outside of the turn/spin and quickly. I have seen the pre-turn idea done before, to alleviate this problem. Chris do you know if this is viewed as a compromise in the eyes of judges, eg. will we be deducted?

waltzguy

02-11-2007, 11:03 AM

On the spin turn, as you rise, inhale. As you lower, exhale. It sounds silly, but it really helped my shaping when I was learning it.

that's a great idea, never thought about synchronizing breathing, will try it

Terpsichorean Clod

02-22-2007, 03:43 PM

I hate pivots. Hate, hate, hate. I wish I could stomp on them, mash them up, stick them in a blender and turn them into live green smoothies, except I think for me, they'd look more barfish orange. But they're not physical. I can't grasp them corporeally, let alone terpsichoreally (is that a word?). I could attack their manifestation, but I don't think my legs would like being broken.

I've had natural spin turns on the brain so much lately that they've been turning up in my dreams. It didn't help that we just covered Pivot from Promenade (DVIDA) in Silver Waltz class. I'm really confused about where that leader's left back step goes. I've heard the following from 3 teachers and the Gray Book:
-Back down LOD
-Back and slightly to the left
-Diagonally back
-Left and slightly back

The beginning of Pivot from Promenade after the first step from promenade to closed is essentially the same as the beginning of the Natural Spin Turn, right or should I not be comparing the two? Would it make a difference if the Smooth class tended to employ more of a "social frame"? I'd appreciate any advice/help this afternoon as I'm planning on going over it in tonight's lesson and would like to be able to ask semi-intelligent questions. Thanks!

Terpsichorean Clod

02-22-2007, 03:46 PM

It's a lot easier and more powerful a step if you reduce the amount of "pivot" of the standing foot against the floor, and instead increase the pre-turn of the foot before it is placed, and the degree to which the body turns over the foot. See if you can dance something that starts like the back half of a natural, but developes the pointing alignment into step 5 on a heel lead to end up as a spin turn.
Thanks for the advice, Chris Stratton. I'm sorry for not having acknowledged your post earlier. I'd meant to think on it and then reply, but I guess I never really got past the thinking stage.

samina

02-22-2007, 03:53 PM

I wish I could stomp on them, mash them up, stick them in a blender and turn them into live green smoothies....

hey, that's a brilliant idea... you could then flush them where the sun don't shine... ;)

Terpsichorean Clod

02-24-2007, 03:14 PM

hey, that's a brilliant idea... you could then flush them where the sun don't shine... ;)
Mmmm...round and round and round they go down the toilet. Ha! That's the only way I'd get significant rotation in my pivots.

samina

02-24-2007, 03:15 PM

Mmmm...round and round and round they go down the toilet. Ha! That's the only way I'd get significant rotation in my pivots.

LMAO...

i don't believe it... the body's a brilliant learning machine. too bad you're not local... i need to practice pivots & spins, we could spin ourselves into oblivion & back! <g>

reb

02-24-2007, 03:23 PM

Mmmm...round and round and round they go down the toilet. Ha! That's the only way I'd get significant rotation in my pivots.
If its any consolation . . . a couple years down the road you'll still be discovering new aspects about pivots, involving shaping (primarily from hip to head), power-on, power-down, etc.

I think (!!) its a combination of impatience (let's go on with it) and patience (untimely wisdom).

If it were easy, my next-door neighbor would have mastered this 'simple' figure already.

samina

02-24-2007, 03:28 PM

If it were easy, my next-door neighbor would have mastered this 'simple' figure already.

is that the same guy who's wondering why you're still taking lessons? :)

reb

02-24-2007, 03:33 PM

is that the same guy who's wondering why you're still taking lessons? :)
Good question!!

No - but they all fit into the large pool of 'everyone else'.:D

Love your memory!

samina

02-24-2007, 03:40 PM

;)

Terpsichorean Clod

02-24-2007, 05:15 PM

LMAO...

i don't believe it... the body's a brilliant learning machine. too bad you're not local... i need to practice pivots & spins, we could spin ourselves into oblivion & back! <g>
:D Sounds fun! Flatlining for dancers!

Terpsichorean Clod

02-24-2007, 05:16 PM

If its any consolation . . . a couple years down the road you'll still be discovering new aspects about pivots, involving shaping (primarily from hip to head), power-on, power-down, etc.

I think (!!) its a combination of impatience (let's go on with it) and patience (untimely wisdom).

If it were easy, my next-door neighbor would have mastered this 'simple' figure already.
Thanks for the encouragement, reb! Though I think "a couple years" is a bit optimistic. :D

Terpsichorean Clod

02-24-2007, 05:18 PM

Good question!!

No - but they all fit into the large pool of 'everyone else'.:D

Love your memory!
:reminding self not to ever tick off samina: ;)

Terpsichorean Clod

02-24-2007, 05:33 PM

Discoveries about things that were going wrong with my pivots:
-Starting with the initial natural turn or step in promenade, then stopping, and then continuing to the pivot from a mainly heel-weighted standing foot
-"Falling" into the forward step rather than pushing off from the new standing foot
They're still pretty bad, but at least there's progress. :D

Terpsichorean Clod

02-28-2007, 05:47 AM

Alright, this is still driving me nuts. In the Gray Book, on Step 4, the leader steps back LOD. But I have never (for full disclosure, newbie here) seen anyone do this (generally diagonally left and back, sometimes even way out to the side). Why is this? :confused: :confused: :headwall:

Joe

02-28-2007, 07:32 AM

Because most are overturning the half natural to backing LOD instead of DC. The rotation then takes the back LF off backing LOD to backing DW.

goldiebox

02-28-2007, 09:14 AM

I believe that according to official expectations, the guys are supposed to spin on the left foot nearly 180 degrees (step 4). However, that is in reality very hard to do with a partner, since she has to turn that much and be on the outside of the turn/spin and quickly.

She can do this because she is performing a pivot action, not a true pivot. So her left leg, as she turns past the guy, will be able to leave CBM and move leftwards to finish the rotation.