Social and competitive: - So what's the difference?

[D-spot]

Okay, so let's forget about styling (IS vs AS) for a while. Social versus competitive? Not a competition about which is best either please. A lot more people dance socially than competitively.

The skils required are different. A social dancer is less likely to attract a judges attention than would a dancer who has practiced their performance styling. I have seen many a competitive dancer (including Slavik whathisname) have dificulty in dancing free style (no choreography).

Lot's of pro's and cons for either setting to be discussed.
On D-spot.

[saludas]

Okay, so let's forget about styling (IS vs AS) for a while. Social versus competitive? Not a competition about which is best either please. A lot more people dance socially than competitively.

The skils required are different. A social dancer is less likely to attract a judges attention than would a dancer who has practiced their performance styling. I have seen many a competitive dancer (including Slavik whathisname) have dificulty in dancing free style (no choreography).

Lot's of pro's and cons for either setting to be discussed.
On D-spot.

What has freestyle dancing, and the ability to do it, anything to do with partner dancing?

I'll also bet that he is not a very good clogger, or a very good tap dancer....

[Purr]

Perhaps D-spot is referring to just plain old "lead and follow" social dance situations, as opposed to structured routines that one might perform in a competition.

[dTas]

i'm wondering why the anomosity towards social dancers? i've been hearing, and receiving, a lot of flack towards social dancing.

but like Purr said... one big difference between the two is "plain old lead and follow" vs. dancing a set routine or step.

also... with competative there is more opportunity for styling because the next movement is predetermined by the routine or series of steps.

in social you can't depend on what the next step will be so you have to restrict your flight/momentum and motion.

[Purr]

Being able to dance in a social situation is a skill. It forces you to pay attention to the basics of dancing, especially if you're dancing with someone you don't know, so you can dance together.

[Chris Stratton]

in social you can't depend on what the next step will be so you have to restrict your flight/momentum and motion.

Actually in the body flight dances, you must never begin a downswing until you can depend on what the step after the lowering one will be - if you have to stop and wait, do it before you begin to lower. If you slow down or change direction once you are on the way down, you are dancing badly and making life hard for your partner.

If you look through the formally defined figures, all of those that can follow from a given exit have essentially the same placement of the next step. The inflection - CBM, timing of rise, etc may be different, but the step is where it has to be as a result of the preceding figure. This isn't done to satisfy judges, it's done because physics requires it.

[mamboqueen]

I think social dancers, for the most part, are less uptight.

[dTas]

I think social dancers, for the most part, are less uptight.

LMAO!!!

[dTas]

Actually in the body flight dances, you must never begin a downswing until you can depend on what the step after the lowering one will be - if you have to stop and wait, do it before you begin to lower. If you slow down or change direction once you are on the way down, you are dancing badly and making life hard for your partner.

If you look through the formally defined figures, all of those that can follow from a given exit have essentially the same placement of the next step. The inflection - CBM, timing of rise, etc may be different, but the step is where it has to be as a result of the preceding figure. This isn't done to satisfy judges, it's done because physics requires it.

wow, Chris, you must think i dance like Frankenstein.

i'm just trying to simplify what you constantly try to elaborate.

[Twilight_Elena]

Actually in the body flight dances, you must never begin a downswing until you can depend on what the step after the lowering one will be - if you have to stop and wait, do it before you begin to lower. If you slow down or change direction once you are on the way down, you are dancing badly and making life hard for your partner.

If you look through the formally defined figures, all of those that can follow from a given exit have essentially the same placement of the next step. The inflection - CBM, timing of rise, etc may be different, but the step is where it has to be as a result of the preceding figure. This isn't done to satisfy judges, it's done because physics requires it.

I agree with Chris. Not to mention that even in comps you have to lead and follow, since another couple could be coming straight at you: the lead has to avoid them, just like in social dancing. You can't just step on the dancefloor and start executing a routine from beginning to end. You're not dancing on your own. You adjust.
My 2 cents

Twilight Elena

[Chris Stratton]

I have no idea how you dance. However that issue of continuity of direction through the swing is something that precious few social dancers undestand: competition dancers usually don't start to get it (outside of a routine with fixed alignments) until fairly late either.

A lot of people do believe that if you don't care about competition you are free to send you partner in any direction at any time: but it's just not true, and the ladies can feel the difference even if they can't identify it.

[tanya_the_dancer]

I come to dance socials on a regular basis, and I also compete pro-am, and I found that dancing at socials is not as challenging to me as my competition preparations.

[mamboqueen]

I agree.

[dTas]

i think it largely depends on who you dance with when dancing at socials.

that being said... when i'm not dancing with my wife or my partner i too find socials "less challenging" .

[wyllo]

Well, there certainly is more variety in the dancing experience at socials. Sometimes you dance to the best of your ability with a partner, sometimes you have a conversation and just happen to be dancing at the same time.

Overall, though, I'd say the technique that make you a good competitive dancer makes you a good social dancer. Although, there are some instances where this is not the case -- for example, I wouldn't recommend fully extending your free arm in a New Yorker while on a crowded dance floor (although this can also be dangerous on a competition floor!)

[mamboqueen]

I agree, Wyllo. I think you need to tone down some of the styling movements that don't really "belong" on the social floor.

[redhead]

At a social/club, I usually can tell if I'm dancing with a competitive partner... lead feels more precise to me. Even if that person competes in rhythm/latin and we dance salsa.

[Spitfire]

Social dancing is more relaxed since the object is to have fun with it rather then trying to outdo someone else. One way it's put is what works vs. what is the most "proper" way of doing something and looking great; particularly in the eyes of judges.

I know that a lot of competitive dancers do very little social dancing.

[redhead]

I know that a lot of competitive dancers do very little social dancing.
I know that many competitive dancers almost never dance "their" style socially but like to dance other styles.

[wyllo]

I know that a lot of competitive dancers do very little social dancing.

That's not necessarily true -- I go out social dancing every weekend and compete. Now, I'm not a high level competitor (yet), but I hope that I never lose my enjoyment of the social aspect of ballroom.

[Spitfire]

That's not necessarily true -- I go out social dancing every weekend and compete. Now, I'm not a high level competitor (yet), but I hope that I never lose my enjoyment of the social aspect of ballroom.

Yes, there are also many competitors who do dance socially as well as for those who don't.

But for those who don't is a lack of challenge or so much time spent in practice to do social dance afterwards?

[fascination]

i am hesitant about going social dancing sometimes....because I have been hurt and b/c it isnt as fun as it used to be, but the longer i dance the more I realize that I need those opportunities not just to hone skills but to remember to lighten up;)

[ACtenDance]

If the guy is hurting you, just hurt him back... Tango for instance, corte... guy falls, what happened??!! ;-)

[wyllo]

Yeah, a little 'defensive dancing' can go a long way on the social dance floor.

[dTas]

i brought this up once a long time ago but has anyone seen "The Cutting Edge"? its a fictional movie about a competative skating couple.

there's a line in there about skating... something like... "I just think you would skate even better if you enjoyed it once in a while."

[D-spot]

Social dancing is more relaxed since the object is to have fun with it rather then trying to outdo someone else.

Just to state the obvious, different people, different goals. Some people only have fun competing, others when social dancing, others both. You can still 'perform' when out socially. Dancing in such a way that people watch appreciateively (or otherwise for that matter, not all attention is good).
I enjoy dancing 'larger than life' and I regularly get positive comments. However, I also enjoy competition, but not for the attention or the winning. So my goals for competition are perhaps different than for others. It's a great tool for learning how to dance. When I was competing I would use social settings to practice. Great opportunity to improve floorcraft and improvisation.
However, cos' I do dance 'big' I know there are some people who feel intimidated and don't want to dance with me. Others feel excessively challenged because I try to 'encourage' them (push them to their limits) and they don't want that. No-one can be all things to all people and still be true to themselves, so I try to balance out. Dancing for myself to a certain extent and for my partner to a certain extent. So, to challenge or not to challenge? After a while, people get filtered out, I avoid them or they avoid me. Still plenty fish in the sea.
Dancing on D-spot.

[tanya_the_dancer]

i brought this up once a long time ago but has anyone seen "The Cutting Edge"? its a fictional movie about a competative skating couple.

there's a line in there about skating... something like... "I just think you would skate even better if you enjoyed it once in a while."

I've seen it, it's a good one!

[Merrylegs]

Interesting topic.

I have found that the more committed to competing I become the harder social dancing is for me. Forget about social dancing Smooth, it's very difficult for me to follow someone not dancing my routines. The only exception is if I'm dancing with a guy from my studio who is at my level and dances the same routines as me. That works well. But, there are only a few who fit into that category....

Sometimes I forget to have fun while social dancing these days. How can I change that?

I find I'm the most relaxed when dancing Salsa. I've never competed in it, never had a routine and therefore following is easy. The music is also very motivating for me.

[D-spot]

At a social/club, I usually can tell if I'm dancing with a competitive partner... lead feels more precise to me. Even if that person competes in rhythm/latin and we dance salsa.

In the salsa world, if I am dancing with a ballroom trained dancer, it usually feels significantly different to a one who only dances salsa. I have found no apparent difference between a social dancer and a competitive dancer in the salsa world.

Dancing with a competitive dancer I often find them stiffer and more hesitant than the social dancer (assuming they dance a similar levels). I can but assume that the competitor is less familiar with freestyle (non-choreographed) dancing. And I find this at least up to gold level and more so in the standard than the latin. Of course the closer hold with a different dancer may be responsible for this in standard. With a good social dancer I can throw just about anything in and they follow me (perhaps not with the styling that the competitor can use). The competitor I have to dance with much more frequently to allow them to adjust.
Bear in mind I talking generically and not specifically. Of course there are exceptions.
D-spot dances.

[tanya_the_dancer]

Interesting topic.

I have found that the more committed to competing I become the harder social dancing is for me. Forget about social dancing Smooth, it's very difficult for me to follow someone not dancing my routines. The only exception is if I'm dancing with a guy from my studio who is at my level and dances the same routines as me. That works well. But, there are only a few who fit into that category....

Sometimes I forget to have fun while social dancing these days. How can I change that?

I find I'm the most relaxed when dancing Salsa. I've never competed in it, never had a routine and therefore following is easy. The music is also very motivating for me.

I don't have a problem following people who are not dancing my competition routines, because I try not to memorize them to the point that I can't do anything else. I still have to follow because my partner may have to adjust something to avoid running into people. What I found though, is that I cannot do some technical things, like closer hold in smooth, when I am dancing with most men at the socials. Which, to some extent, makes it less enjoyable for me.

[redhead]

In the salsa world, if I am dancing with a ballroom trained dancer, it usually feels significantly different to a one who only dances salsa. I have found no apparent difference between a social dancer and a competitive dancer in the salsa world.

yes, I meant ballroom trained person dancing salsa, that feels very different (I'm a follower)

[redhead]

I have found that the more committed to competing I become the harder social dancing is for me. Forget about social dancing Smooth, it's very difficult for me to follow someone not dancing my routines. The only exception is if I'm dancing with a guy from my studio who is at my level and dances the same routines as me. That works well. But, there are only a few who fit into that category....

Are you saying they dance their set routines at socials?

[fascination]

If the guy is hurting you, just hurt him back... Tango for instance, corte... guy falls, what happened??!! ;-)I only play rough with the men I love the most;)

[dnquark]

I bear little respect for skilled competitive dancers who lack solid social dance skills. I hold the opinion that social dancing brings more happiness to the world than performance dancing. When you only focus on the competitive side, you are investing all that time and money for the benefit of only one person: your dear self. It's a bit silly to engage in such egoism when pretty much all forms of partner dancing are an endangered species in this day and age.

I've also run into way too many ballroom dancers who just don't f-ing follow, because I (not being a ballroom dancer) am not executing the steps correctly. These experiences do little to make me want to acquire formal ballroom training.

[wyllo]

I've also run into way too many ballroom dancers who just don't follow, because I (not being a ballroom dancer) am not executing the steps correctly. These experiences do little to make me want to acquire formal ballroom training.

If you aren't executing the steps correctly, you may not be allowing your follow to do her job. I've had a number of untrained dancers tell me what I am doing wrong, when their lead was nonexistent, ambiguous or even the opposite of what they wanted. I say ask yourself what you can do to make the partnership better before criticizing your partner (this goes for leads and follows).

[mamboqueen]

Well, I guess I'd have to say I have little patience for leads who come to dances with either no training or self-training and get annoyed that I can't follow! I'll give anyone a dance, but if it's a total trainwreck, I'd probably be hardpressed to go back for more.

[redhead]

If you aren't executing the steps correctly, you may not be allowing your follow to do her job. I've had a number of untrained dancers tell me what I am doing wrong, when their lead was nonexistent, ambiguous or even the opposite of what they wanted. I say ask yourself what you can do to make the partnership better before criticizing your partner (this goes for leads and follows).
exactly!

[Chris Stratton]

Providing an opportunity for the follow to stay with you without breaking some fundamental rule of her posture or body position is pretty much the final definition of dancing the steps correctly.

The only reason it gets written up in a book is so that we don't each have to re-derive the details from first principles.

Of course if she's very habitual, first exposure to things that are well established as possible but don't happen to occur in her competition routine might not go well.

The challenge to being a playfull leader is learning to be inventive, while staying within (or at least recoverably close to) the things that are possible. That's actually pretty hard to do without a lot of practice of things that are known to be possible in order to program your muscles and reflexes.

[tanya_the_dancer]

I've also run into way too many ballroom dancers who just don't f-ing follow, because I (not being a ballroom dancer) am not executing the steps correctly. These experiences do little to make me want to acquire formal ballroom training.

If you've met many social dancers who won't follow you but will follow someone else nicely, maybe you should try to figure what is wrong with your leads. Maybe you're being an ambiguous leader... Just a suggestion ;)

[fascination]

yikes, that was harsh...how about considering that people cultivate competitive dance b/c it is an artistic expression for them and people who watch at comps certainly appreciate/benefit from that?, and not only that, MORE IMPORTANTLY, when one spends that much time and energy cultivating something they love they get both health benefits and psychological benefits from doing what they enjoy, which in turn benfits those around them b/c usually the ability to be present to others and to be giving comes from self care which creates a well from which to draw....also, while you have a point on lead and follow... sometimes it is not that they don't know how to follow but rather that your way of doing a step and/or leading it is so foreign to what they are accustomed....I had a new teacher, accustomed only to social dancing, lead me into a twinkle and then do something that he thought was an obvious chasse but which had positively no resemblance to one...I figured it out the second time around... but it is an innocent problem, when one is simply accustomed to a particular level of dancing...you do have a point though and that is why I go to socials....but I find it a bit galling though when a strictly social dancer leads something really foreign and then stares at me like "you're a good dancer you should know what this is and do it the way I am accustomed" ...certainly it is the ladies job to follow unconditionally and to match the man....but sometimes that is like reading a novel in a foreign language except only one of the two dancers understands that that is the case...I would never accuse that guy of not being able to "blanking lead" just because he isnt competitive....so I think most it would be nice if social leads wouldn't get belligerent when a competitive lady doesnt follow him well and if he could refrain from assuming that she is a bad follow just b/c she has trouble reading him...afterall she isnt misreading on purpose to insult the leads skill level...I think some guys , present company excluded tend to react as though they've been insulted

[fascination]

hysterical...how many of you snuck in before me while I was composing my novel-ette

[redhead]

Also follows need to protect themselves from bad lead. You can be darn sure that I value my healthy back more than leader's ego.
I know a guy who used to do theater arts with that girl, she was like 19 at that time - and a very good dancer. So she was dancing salsa once with one guy (he was a beginner at that time... like 5-6 years ago) and he dipped her incorrectly and she damaged her lower back. She never fully recovered - she walks fine, but had to quit dancing (she still comes to watch every once in a while). The guy felt bad, but what can you do. Now, he kept dancing and got awesome since then, he's one of my favorite leaders to dance salsa with now - but for her, one bad dip was enough.

[mamboqueen]

You're going to dredge up a little back pain I had from a guy who dug his hand into the back my ribs...it was not pleasant.

[fascination]

Also follows need to protect themselves from bad lead. You can be darn sure that I value my healthy back more than leader's ego.
I know a guy who used to do theater arts with that girl, she was like 19 at that time - and a very good dancer. So she was dancing salsa once with one guy (he was a beginner at that time... like 5-6 years ago) and he dipped her incorrectly and she damaged her lower back. She never fully recovered - she walks fine, but had to quit dancing (she still comes to watch every once in a while). The guy felt bad, but what can you do. Now, he kept dancing and got awesome since then, he's one of my favorite leaders to dance salsa with now - but for her, one bad dip was enough.well exactly...Im no pro or longtime open golder but there are some RIGHT ways for things to happen and if you happen to know them as a follow you cooperate in that direction when you read it coming...and if the guy isn't as trained...ouch...will not do pivot or spin turns or most smooth dances with guys who think they can , but cant...and I am not talking nbewbies here...with whom I will always dance....but guys who think they know and dont...well we all have injuries from that...and I'm even okay with that unless he treats me like a dog that he wants to kick....

[redhead]

I was dropped in a dip once, but even better - the guy couldn't keep his balance and fell on top of me :)
that was hysterical

[Merrylegs]

There you go again, expecting the woman to do all the work!

Seriously, is this post a joke? You don't dance ballroom, (read, don't know how to lead) yet are getting snarky because women won't/can't follow you, do I have that right? Hilarious!

I stopped settling for mediocrity long ago. While my body may be getting older, I am getting more discerning for what I want out of my life. Yes, I consider myself a "skilled competitive dancer" but, I also have social dance skills. I'd rather excel at a few things than be average at many. What's that saying, "Jack of all trades, master of none."

And, I've danced both the lead and follow parts for almost all of the dances with exception of some of the Standard dances and the Paso Doble. I know how to lead properly.

dnquark, I guess we disagree on what makes the world go 'round. I'd rather watch Mikail Barishnikov dance solo on a stage than watch a bunch of people bump into each other on the dance floor all night long. Or to use a ballroom example: I'd rather watch a world champion couple perform on the competition floor than many other things. Why? Because they are performing for me, part of the reason they perform/compete is to share their skills with the world. Yes, there is another part that is for themselves but no one is completely selfless. I can live with the balance it creates.

One more thing, if you're worried that partner dancing is in danger of extinction than you owe it to the world to start taking more dance lessons. Remember, partner dancing is just that, partners dancing. You need to hold up your end of the partnership AND perpetuate it.


I bear little respect for skilled competitive dancers who lack solid social dance skills. I hold the opinion that social dancing brings more happiness to the world than performance dancing. When you only focus on the competitive side, you are investing all that time and money for the benefit of only one person: your dear self. It's a bit silly to engage in such egoism when pretty much all forms of partner dancing are an endangered species in this day and age.

I've also run into way too many ballroom dancers who just don't f-ing follow, because I (not being a ballroom dancer) am not executing the steps correctly. These experiences do little to make me want to acquire formal ballroom training.

[Merrylegs]

You're going to dredge up a little back pain I had from a guy who dug his hand into the back my ribs...it was not pleasant.

Yup, I've suffered a small tear in my rotator cuff from an over-zealous Salsa leader. He picked my right up of the floor during an under-arm turn. Needless to say, I don't go near him anymore.

[mamboqueen]

Well, I'd be kidding myself if I didn't admit that I probably caused a few aches and pains along the way, too.

[Merrylegs]

Well, I'd be kidding myself if I didn't admit that I probably caused a few aches and pains along the way, too.

Oh, sure, me too! Stuff happens but I don't stay angry about it. You get stepped on, you step on people, poke 'em in the eye, whatever.

Sure, I got seriously felt up by some dude at a club and he'll never get the chance to do it again. I'll just never forget it.

[Chris Stratton]

I'm confused trying to reconcile

Forget about social dancing Smooth, it's very difficult for me to follow someone not dancing my routines. The only exception is if I'm dancing with a guy from my studio who is at my level and dances the same routines as me. That works well. But, there are only a few who fit into that category....

with

Yes, I consider myself a "skilled competitive dancer" but, I also have social dance skills......And, I've danced both the lead and follow parts for almost all of the dances with exception of some of the Standard dances and the Paso Doble. I know how to lead properly.

[mamboqueen]

Hmm...the poke in the eye...would that be a finger or a shoe?? I can see how one would be misconstrued as intentional :)

*ick* on the feeling up thing. That actually calls for a shoe to the eye.

[arianiah]

We usually figure out how to adapt to eachothers lead/follow by talking through it. Mostly we tell eachother what we both know and then attempt those steps. This helps us so that next time we dance with eachother we know what to expect from the other and can enjoy ourselves more. Alot of time my partner enjoys that we discuss the dance and not just ourselves because we are both learning something new and anyone who loves dance as they should, would fee the same. But there is an occasion where i have had to dance with a guy who is so used to a routine that he hasn't learned to break loose and be more creative himself...maybe it's an insecurity issue or he has a hard time thinking fast on his feet. So don't be too hard on the routine guys because they need more practice. IT's just like learning a foreign language and trying to talk to someone who is fluent.. It takes a while to register what you want to say before you actually can. The men do have a bigger part in social dancing because they are coming up with what steps to do next. i am happy to follow.

[fascination]

alot of these problems are solved by spiking the punch:cool:

[Merrylegs]

This is the first time I have ever quoted myself on DF.

Chris, notice the words in the first sentence. What I mean is that it's progressively getting worse. It's not a black or white situation. Also in the 2nd para: these days. Again, it's a new thing for me.

My apologies for not being clear, I am posting around working today!

Interesting topic.

I have found that the more committed to competing I become the harder social dancing is for me. Forget about social dancing Smooth, it's very difficult for me to follow someone not dancing my routines. The only exception is if I'm dancing with a guy from my studio who is at my level and dances the same routines as me. That works well. But, there are only a few who fit into that category....

Sometimes I forget to have fun while social dancing these days. How can I change that?

I find I'm the most relaxed when dancing Salsa. I've never competed in it, never had a routine and therefore following is easy. The music is also very motivating for me.

[tacad]

I've also run into way too many ballroom dancers who just don't f-ing follow, because I (not being a ballroom dancer) am not executing the steps correctly. These experiences do little to make me want to acquire formal ballroom training.
It's possible (and likely) that you are sending conflicting signals that confuse a follower. But I'm sure you've had an earful.

It's also possible that she has some weaknesses that you are not yet able to compensate for. In a lindy hop class, when doing the basic/send out I could do it with one but not another. As I got more competent I began to be able to do it with the 2nd follower as well but something was wrong. 3 months later the teacher discovered she was doing something wrong in her technique (even though it was much better than mine) and this was the reason for the difference. As I got better I could compensate. So fundamentally the reason is your relative lack of skill, but it really does take two to tango. :roll: :wink: Your follower may have a difficiency that you are not skilled enough to compensate for.

[mamboqueen]

alot of these problems are solved by spiking the punch:cool:


Isn't that a group - Spike the Punch?? If not, let's start one ;)

[fascination]

I am sooooooooooooooooooo there

[Chris Stratton]

It's also possible that she has some weaknesses that you are not yet able to compensate for.

Of course - it requires each person holding up their end of the deal. There are many things which a partner could do, which one could only "compensate" for by doing things, which if continued, would themselves constitute very bad habits.

That's one reason some competition dancers prefer not to do socials, or prefer that their partners don't do socials - there are often people there who will really mess up your dancing. But that isn't true of everyone at all socials.

[tsb]

one way to look at it is to delineate between lateral vs. vertical thinking. the theoretician edward debono put it this way:


Rightness is what matters in vertical thinking. Richness is what matters in lateral thinking.

Vertical thinking is selective, lateral thinking is generative.

Vertical thinking selects a pathway by excluding other pathways (leading to the jokes about "illegal moves" in strictly ballroom dance). Lateral thinking does not restrict but seeks to open up new pathways.

Vertical thinking moves only if there are directions on how to move. Lateral thinking moves in order to generate directions.

Vertical thinking depends heavily on the rigidity of definitions. It often depends on identifying something as a member of some class or excluding it from that class. If something is given a label or put into a class, it is supposed to stay there. With lateral thinking, classifications and categories are not fixed pigeonholes but signposts to help navigation.

Lateral thinking welcomes chance intrusions. With lateral thinking one welcomes outside influences for their provocative action.


while everyone has their own motivations for dancing, i find it interesting to note the observations of richard powers, internationally known dance historian & faculty & stanford, on the origins of competitive/syllabus based dancing, taken from: http://dance.stanford.edu/syllabi/sequences.htm


In the 19th century, most social dances were either turning couple dances (waltz, polka, schottische, etc.) or set dances (quadrilles, contradances, etc.). The set dances were memorized or prompted patterns, while the turning couple dances and their variations were usually improvised.

Toward the end of the 19th century some dance masters began to compose sequences of waltz steps to be memorized and executed by dance academy students. Most of these were composed by English dance masters, like William Lamb who choreographed his St. George's Waltz sequence in 1896. This led to the creation of a Sequence Dance movement in London at the turn of the century, where hundreds of dancers would memorize sequence waltzes like Arthur Morris' Veleta (1900) and then non-waltzes like S. W. Painter's Eva Three-Step (1904), eventually embracing one-steps, two-steps, tangos and foxtrots (which the English preferred to call saunters).

Different populations of dancers had different preferences, and by 1910 there was a strong class division between those who preferred freestyle vs. sequence dances. The upper classes in London preferred freestyle dancing while the working class in the outskirts preferred the sequence dances, and would hold weekly balls where hundreds would gather to learn and perform a large and rapidly growing number of sequence dances.

The creation and standardization of these sequence dances was controlled by several organizations which appeared at this time, most notably the Imperial Society of Teachers of Dancing and the British Association of Teachers of Dancing. Today's "international" (a euphemism for British) competition ballroom dancing is overseen by the Imperial Society, which was founded in London in July 1904 for "The fraternal co-operation of properly qualified teachers of dancing in the British Empire and foreign countries for the safeguarding of our mutual interests." (Quoted from their charter)

The blue-collar work ethic embraced the mastery of sequence dances, which soon evolved into competition ballroom dancing, as ways to elevate one's social position through perseverance and hard work, and these roots are still visible today.

within my own personal experience, how this tends to play out is that the goals of competitive dancing prompt those inclined to focus more on doing things "correctly" - that is, to be more focused on themselves individually and they tend to be able to dance well only with a few select partners, while (depending on how you care to define it) social dancers tend to prioritize skills that help their partner dance well. i understand what competitively trained followers tend to "need" to dance relatively well and if need be i can focus more on that but in a social setting, it's a lot easier to have fun if you don't need to concentrate so much on being a good partner - and the more vertical thinking the partner is in their approach to dancing, the harder i need to work which leaves me less energy to enjoy the experience.

that's not to say that i don't enjoy employ good technique - i belong to a dance company where the majority of us are SAG eligible because of the commericial & movie work we've done, (http://www.beverlyhillsdance.com/) & i've done dance work as an extra on TV independent of BHDCE - the bottom line is that i can derive satisfaction from having people appreciate the aesthetics in my dancing while not being held to an arbitrary standard.

[Chris Stratton]

Lateral thinking is much more practical in a purely lateral ballroom dance, such as the tango.

There in fact, you do have much more freedom to move in arbitrary directions, needing only to not pull your partner through the space occupied by your own body, not contort her into uncomfortable positions, and be sure to preface each action with a clear preparation before it is actually commited.

In contrast, when you introduce a vertical element into the ballroom swing, or body flight dances, the practicalities of making it work become a lot more complicated. Vertical thinking is the easiest way to navigate through them - you can figure it all out on your own, but it's easier to learn from those who already have.

In terms of Powers's history, amateur ballroom competition actually inherits more from the spirit of the upperclass freestyle dancing than from the so-called working class sequence dancing. Yes, the actual figures may be derived from those first codified for sequence purposes, but the look is more one of individuality and ultimatley creativity - these are not formation performances. Making them really work required personalized training, as opposed to the general group training used for the sequence dances (note most group classes function in sequence format). However, one thing that's changed with the recent pre-professional/dancesport approach to competition is that sequence approaches, albeit somewhat individualized, are increasingly becoming the look, method, and style people associate with competition. The downside of this is that it drives a new wedge between competition in this post-amateur era, and improvised social ballroom.

It's also true that the challenge of improvising social ballroom has grown much harder: originally, the material would have been fairly simple with only a few steps per dance. But as new things were invented, and they showed up in the sequence and later syllabus manuals, expectations for wealth of material got a lot higher. It doesn't take too long to learn to social dance a few basic figures and improvise navigation: learning to play with routine-equivelent wealth is a bit more taxing.

[sanityhaven]

I think TSB hit it on the head with this statement.
...the goals of competitive dancing prompt those inclined to focus more on doing things "correctly"...

I've found that competitive dancing puts more of an emphasis on advancement than social dancing does. This is the nature of competitions. If you don't work to get better between competitions, you probably won't do better, in fact you'll probably do worse than in the last one.

Social Dances just doesn't have that competitve aspect to it. Advancement is not the point of being there. If your dancing hasn't got better since the dance last Friday, no big deal. You're not there to be better than the couple dancing next to you.

[dTas]

I think TSB hit it on the head with this statement.


I've found that competitive dancing puts more of an emphasis on advancement than social dancing does. This is the nature of competitions. If you don't work to get better between competitions, you probably won't do better, in fact you'll probably do worse than in the last one.

Social Dances just doesn't have that competitve aspect to it. Advancement is not the point of being there. If your dancing hasn't got better since the dance last Friday, no big deal. You're not there to be better than the couple dancing next to you.

that is so strange that social dancers don't want to get better...

all the social dancers i know are constantly trying to improve; learn how to lead better, learn how to follow better, how to look better, new steps and combinations, etc... eventually they would like to know enough to feel like they could compete if they wanted to.

that's how i stay in business. i'm teaching beginners to be intermediate and intermediate to be advanced. but none to compete.

edit: and hardly any of it is patterns... i mostly teach technique.

[sanityhaven]

that is so strange that social dancers don't want to get better...

all the social dancers i know are constantly trying to improve; learn how to lead better, learn how to follow better, how to look better, new steps and combinations, etc... eventually they would like to know enough to feel like they could compete if they wanted to.

that's how i stay in business. i'm teaching beginners to be intermediate and intermediate to be advanced. but none to compete.

edit: and hardly any of it is patterns... i mostly teach technique.

I'm not saying that social dancers don't want to get better. I don't know of any dancers, social or competitive, that don't want to improve there dancing skill. What I'm trying to say is that competition places more of an emphasis on advancement than social dancing does.

Social dancers do want to improve too, but there desire to improve isn't influenced by having to compete against others.

[tacad]

I've also run into way too many ballroom dancers who just don't f-ing follow, because I (not being a ballroom dancer) am not executing the steps correctly. These experiences do little to make me want to acquire formal ballroom training.
As long as we're on the subject, I do run into followers (leaders do this too) who do more than I'm capable of doing, which makes dancing very difficult. On waltz, there is a whole shaping thing I'm somewhat aware of but haven't been taught yet. (Forgive the obvious mistakes here) head back and to the left, something about leaning or settling back into your partner's arm so that you act as counter weights to each other? If someone insists on doing that with me, well the results aren't pretty and give each of us back pain.

[wyllo]

As long as we're on the subject, I do run into followers (leaders do this too) who do more than I'm capable of doing, which makes dancing very difficult. On waltz, there is a whole shaping thing I'm somewhat aware of but haven't been taught yet. (Forgive the obvious mistakes here) head back and to the left, something about leaning or settling back into your partner's arm so that you act as counter weights to each other? If someone insists on doing that with me, well the results aren't pretty and give each of us back pain.

Yeah, my husband tells me stories of follows who shape incorrectly and put all of their weight into his right arm -- apparently it gets quite painful after a few minutes of dancing. Some follows also don't hold their own arms up when dancing and the poor lead has to 'carry' them around the dance floor. I can imagine that's not a great deal of fun...

[tacad]

Social Dances just doesn't have that competitve aspect to it. Advancement is not the point of being there. If your dancing hasn't got better since the dance last Friday, no big deal. You're not there to be better than the couple dancing next to you.
For some reason this doesn't seem to be the case with salsa. As I've learned from mi amiga africana, many salsa dancers do care about advancement. One reason is they compete to dance with the best dancers. I think it's still true in ballroom social to some extent but we don't seem to be so psychotic about it (apologies to africana :wink:)

[saludas]

that is so strange that social dancers don't want to get better...

all the social dancers i know are constantly trying to improve; learn how to lead better, learn how to follow better, how to look better, new steps and combinations, etc... eventually they would like to know enough to feel like they could compete if they wanted to.

I think that that may sorta be true - surely if you ask anyone if they want to be better and improve they will say 'of course'.

BUT

I sincerely doubt that any social dancer is, really. There have been many studies where people were asked (for instance) if they would prefer the more expensive car vs the standard car, and of course many say the more expensive, but not many will simply put out the $$s.

I maintain that when the avg social dancer sees what it REALLY takes in terms of time, practice, effort, and dedication to really improve past just 'learning new steps' or 'looking better', then they opt out, or go to pro-am. In other words, if you tell a purely social dancer that to really improve they must lesson for a few years, practice 4:1 vs lessoning, etc, they will NOT go for it. BECAUSE this option has always been there. The fact that many folks choose to social dance at the prebronze level for 10 or 20 years proves it... they just aren't really interested in putting in the time and $$$s.

But they'll take that social groupclass every week, and never practice or attempt to even remember the technique... IMHO...

[tacad]

Just a comment into the void about social dancers. I'm aware of three camps in my area: Those who dance flat-footed that saludas likes so much :wink:. They work to do basic patterns. Then there's a more stylish set that's more capable that mostly figure it out as they go along, not formally taught. Then there's the ones that utilize formally taught technique.

[dancing_princess]

i brought this up once a long time ago but has anyone seen "The Cutting Edge"? its a fictional movie about a competative skating couple.

there's a line in there about skating... something like... "I just think you would skate even better if you enjoyed it once in a while."


I don't know why I love the movie, since it's so corny! I think I even remember that scene- I've seen it like 5 times (on tv). :-D

[tanya_the_dancer]

As long as we're on the subject, I do run into followers (leaders do this too) who do more than I'm capable of doing, which makes dancing very difficult. On waltz, there is a whole shaping thing I'm somewhat aware of but haven't been taught yet. (Forgive the obvious mistakes here) head back and to the left, something about leaning or settling back into your partner's arm so that you act as counter weights to each other? If someone insists on doing that with me, well the results aren't pretty and give each of us back pain.
I know what you're talking about. I realized I cannot practice that if I don't have a partner who knows how to do this. :(

[Chris Stratton]

As long as we're on the subject, I do run into followers (leaders do this too) who do more than I'm capable of doing, which makes dancing very difficult. On waltz, there is a whole shaping thing I'm somewhat aware of but haven't been taught yet. (Forgive the obvious mistakes here) head back and to the left, something about leaning or settling back into your partner's arm so that you act as counter weights to each other? If someone insists on doing that with me, well the results aren't pretty and give each of us back pain.

Don't worry, it's their fault not yours. This is a case of taking the apparent "look" and trying to simply do it, without understanding how it is really created. There ultimately will be some appearance of this, but the reality is that each dancer is supporting themselves - any forces they exert on each other are very light and minimal when they do it right. A few pro-am teachers do encourage the heavy follow though, so that they can extert more physical control over an inexperienced student and make her appear to do things she's not really capable of doing correctly yet.

[tacad]

Don't worry, it's their fault not yours. This is a case of taking the apparent "look" and trying to simply do it, without understanding how it is really created. There ultimately will be some appearance of this, but the reality is that each dancer is supporting themselves - any forces they exert on each other are very light and minimal when they do it right. A few pro-am teachers do encourage the heavy follow though, so that they can extert more physical control over an inexperienced student and make her appear to do things she's not really capable of doing correctly yet.
Thanks, but I wasn't really worried that it was my fault. I did think that they were styling above my level though which I thought they shouldn't do. I didn't understand that they were doing it incorrectly. So thanks for the clarification.

[dancing_princess]

To add my $.02, I have been doing social dancing since November (dance lessons started in March) and I loved it. I got hooked to dancing thanks to socials. Then, I did my first pro-am last month and got hooked (hate the associated costs, but that's another topic).

I don't think that a competitive person is selfish or an egotist. I think people compete to improve and frankly because they are competitive in character (not a bad thing). But, social dancers have the same desires, they just don't compete. I know a lady who is taking privates, not to compete, but to improve her overall dancing skills. And, I think that the reason people dance is to please themselves, not others (whether they social dance or compete).

Dancing is just plain fun. My mom went to a social with me on Friday and is now interested in learning to dance. Let's face it, it's addictive! :-)

I also think that there are good leaders, bad leaders; good followers and bad followers (heck, I tend to lead myself and am constantly being scolded for it!).

[dTas]

so in your areas... are most private lessons for competative dancers or for social dancers? around here there are a whole lot of social private lessons being taught.

[lynn]

same as in my area - we're not a big hub for competitive dancing....

[D-spot]

I've found that competitive dancing puts more of an emphasis on advancement than social dancing does. This is the nature of competitions. If you don't work to get better between competitions, you probably won't do better, in fact you'll probably do worse than in the last one.

Social Dances just doesn't have that competitve aspect to it. Advancement is not the point of being there. If your dancing hasn't got better since the dance last Friday, no big deal. You're not there to be better than the couple dancing next to you.

Disclaimer, this is a my perception, nothing else, don't hang me.
I sometimes dance in the oriental scene, that is clubs where there are 200+ orientals and one gwai loh (me). It's fascinating to watch so many (say 10%) performing their very nice routines with so little technique or regard to lead and follow. Makes me wince, makes me laugh, makes me cry, makes me turn away.
My girlfriends father used to dance and he was the same. All he wants is flash to impress his friends and colleagues. Talk about competitive, more so that many competitions I have seen. Every week they want a different step that is more flashy than the previous just so they can outdo their friends. Social? Competitive? Not a lot of difference.

Personally I try to outdo myself, harder competition no man can have.

D-spot bursts.

[saludas]

Disclaimer, this is a my perception, nothing else, don't hang me.
I sometimes dance in the oriental scene, that is clubs where there are 200+ orientals and one gwai loh (me). It's fascinating to watch so many (say 10%) performing their very nice routines with so little technique or regard to lead and follow. Makes me wince, makes me laugh, makes me cry, makes me turn away.
My girlfriends father used to dance and he was the same. All he wants is flash to impress his friends and colleagues. Talk about competitive, more so that many competitions I have seen. Every week they want a different step that is more flashy than the previous just so they can outdo their friends. Social? Competitive? Not a lot of difference.

Personally I try to outdo myself, harder competition no man can have.

D-spot bursts.

I dunno, I don't really think you can comment on the entire competitive scene based on 10% of the dancers in the 'oriental' scene that you go to, and your girlfriend's father.

Seeing as the 'oriental' faction of the competitive scene is but a fraction, that means that you are seeing a very very tiny fraction of the ballroom scene, filtered thru (I suppose) an ethnic composition.

However, I believe that the dancers you see at a social who do compete are not only a small percentage of the total competitive scene, but a very specific group - those that go to a social to practice their routines.

Honestly, no competitor does this above bronze/silver, mainly because a social's flow of dance is so vastly different than what a competitor experiences on a real comp floor. Perhaps the poor competitive dancers that are seen at socials are... actually poor competitive dancers?

[D-spot]

Saludas, I was actually trying to point out that there is a great deal of competition with the social scene and it has nothing to do with dance competitions. My experience is that such competition in the social world is more prevalent in certain settings than others. Indeed at my local haunts (mainly Caucasian) the most noticeable 'all flash and no substance' dancers are Oriental. Indeed, I am not referring to competitoin dancers at all.

With respect to your last paragrpah, I know a lot of competitors and very few of them go to social dances. However, the ones I do know who go to the social events are higher level dancers (championship level mainly with some pre-champ, all of them either older adult or senior A/B and successful in dance competitions). This is probably reflective on my not knowing the up and coming dancers in syllabus. Doubtless some of the people I see are syllabus competititors. I certainly don't know any bronze/silver level competitors.

However, I also know a lot of people who take dance lessons and only socialise within the studio setting. Some people I know in the social world don't even take dance lessons.

Hope this clarifies.

On D-spot again

[sanityhaven]

My girlfriends father used to dance and he was the same. All he wants is flash to impress his friends and colleagues. Talk about competitive, more so that many competitions I have seen. Every week they want a different step that is more flashy than the previous just so they can outdo their friends. Social? Competitive? Not a lot of difference.


I've seen this kind of one-up manship before. The thing is, I rarely see it at ballroom socials (more common in Salsa, WCS, Lindy scenes as noted in other posts). When I have seen it in Ballroom, it's been competition dancers that engage in it.

I'm sure there's some competition within certain social circles, but I'd be surpised if that was wide spread attitude held in the ballroom community.

[mamboqueen]

All of the students at my studio take privates and more are social dancers than competitive dancers; it's similar to the way AM sells packages (1 group, a couple of privates and a dance for $x). I'm not really sure how it works with couples, though...maybe they split the price. But ALL the social dancers at my studio take privates.

[diputs]

4 pages in one day, is this a record?

[mamboqueen]

I think that Boring Studio thread was keeping pace.

[diputs]

I should start taking ballroom, it has been really exciting over hear lately.

Sorry for the highjack :(

[mamboqueen]

Don't worry -- almost everyone does it at some point. It happens easily enough. One of these days I'm going to see if we can start a thread and actually END it on the same exact topic!

[lynn]

we are allowed to take a detour, no?

[mamboqueen]

:rolleyes: sure...I hijacked on hair colors the other day...it happens...

[lynn]

O.K., let's go back to the original topic....wait, what is the original topic?? oh, right, social vs. competitive dancers....

[Spitfire]

Social dancing vs. competitive dancing; Social dancing is more fun. :mrgreen:

But wait, hold on...

Competitive dancers find as much exitement in competing. For all the time and work not to mention the expense I would certainly hope so. :wink:

[dancing_princess]

so in your areas... are most private lessons for competative dancers or for social dancers? around here there are a whole lot of social private lessons being taught.

I'm assuming that the majority will take it to compete, but there is still a large amount of folks taking it just cause. I mean, privates help you improve, right?

[Joe]

in social you can't depend on what the next step will be so you have to restrict your flight/momentum and motion.
Of course you can. Competing or dancing socially, you should ALWAYS know what your next step will be. You may have to switch off to something else at the last moment, but switching off implies that you had something planned already. There's just no way to dance without having some idea of what's coming up. Otherwise you'd never go anywhere--or you might, but you'd be going completely random directions.

[Joe]

Yeah, my husband tells me stories of follows who shape incorrectly and put all of their weight into his right arm -- apparently it gets quite painful after a few minutes of dancing. Some follows also don't hold their own arms up when dancing and the poor lead has to 'carry' them around the dance floor. I can imagine that's not a great deal of fun...
A follow who drops her frame is only encouraging the leader to drop his. There's no reason a leader should feel obligated to carry a social dance partner around the floor. Go ahead and drop your frame if she's heavy on you.

[D-spot]

Which leads to the question - how does the follower impose on the leader (and vice versa) and how do you 'subtly' inform them of the problem?

For example, if they are leaning on me I suddenly drop frame and then raise it again. Seems to work, just have to keep at it.

However, I often see competitors with the oposite problem, the followers arms are above the leaders. What to do? Get a taller leader perhaps?

D-spot.

[saludas]

Which leads to the question - how does the follower impose on the leader (and vice versa) and how do you 'subtly' inform them of the problem?

For example, if they are leaning on me I suddenly drop frame and then raise it again. Seems to work, just have to keep at it.

However, I often see competitors with the oposite problem, the followers arms are above the leaders. What to do? Get a taller leader perhaps?

D-spot.

The follow's arm is not 'resting', however lightly, at any time.

[mamboqueen]

How about some tips for a follower on how to get a man's right arm up?

[saludas]

How about some tips for a follower on how to get a man's right arm up?

The follow's job is not, of course, to critique the leader (LOL as if THAT never happens), but there is no need for the arm to be 'more up', as the angle of the arm from the shoulder to elbow is defined by the man's frame and it's relation to the follow; but if it is too 'low for the lady, then she can simply keep HER frome, and make contact only with the hand.

If it's social dance, of course, just bear up for the 2.5 minutes, and then after thanking him, look at him dancing with others - if he is too hunched over, for instance, then no amount of 'commenting' will correct this at once. Keep expectations low at a social...

[mamboqueen]

I do.... and I don't like to "correct" anyone. It's not my place. It just gets uncomfortable after a while and really hard to do what I'm supposed to be doing when his arm is in Georgia and mine's in New York. I have a hard enough time following something like Quickstep as it is.

[Chris Stratton]

The follow's job is not, of course, to critique the leader (LOL as if THAT never happens), but there is no need for the arm to be 'more up', as the angle of the arm from the shoulder to elbow is defined by the man's frame and it's relation to the follow; but if it is too 'low for the lady, then she can simply keep HER frome, and make contact only with the hand.

Um, no. If his elbow is in a low "social" position, her's should be too. She should not have her arm flying - if his is really low, she might not be able to fully connect to it, but staying in a high contemporary-competition style position when his is low is just silly.

[D-spot]

The follow's arm is not 'resting', however lightly, at any time.

Agreed, just making contact. Space between obviously isn't good. Too many buses get through.


Although when instructing, at the early stages I do ask the lady to be 'heavy' as that improves their ability to 'hear' the lead at that stage (not just in arms, but everything). As they improve then I ask then to become lighter and lighter until mere contact exists.
Of course, I state that 'heavy' only applies during the lesson and they should strive for 'light' whenever dancing otherwise.

Often the follower doesn't know what information to look for in the lead with new moves, so I try to help where I can.
D-spot.

[saludas]

Um, no. If his elbow is in a low "social" position, her's should be too. She should not have her arm flying - if his is really low, she might not be able to fully connect to it, but staying in a high contemporary-competition style position when his is low is just silly.

I certainly agree if it is extremely 'social'... but I assume that we are thlking SLIGHT amounts, so in THAT case I suggest not compromising for the 2.5 minutes, and just have the follow keep the frame.

[mamboqueen]

Well, sometimes I get someone whose arm is so low, I cannot comfortably drop my arm that much with our bodies being somewhat far apart (compared to the body contact between 2 competitive dancers, for instance, which most "socialites" don't do).

[Chris Stratton]

I certainly agree if it is extremely 'social'... but I assume that we are thlking SLIGHT amounts, so in THAT case I suggest not compromising for the 2.5 minutes, and just have the follow keep the frame.

You misspelled "high elbow look"

One detail that helps explain it... the lady's contact is actually more at the pulse point of her wrist and her thumb than in her fingers. It would be hard to comfortable get both of those seperated points unless the arms are in a compatible position.

[saludas]

You misspelled "high elbow look"


?? please explain...

[tacad]

The follow's job is not, of course, to critique the leader (LOL as if THAT never happens), but there is no need for the arm to be 'more up', as the angle of the arm from the shoulder to elbow is defined by the man's frame and it's relation to the follow; but if it is too 'low for the lady, then she can simply keep HER frome, and make contact only with the hand.

If it's social dance, of course, just bear up for the 2.5 minutes, and then after thanking him, look at him dancing with others - if he is too hunched over, for instance, then no amount of 'commenting' will correct this at once. Keep expectations low at a social...
No, change your expectations at a social.

[lynn]

Well, sometimes I get someone whose arm is so low, I cannot comfortably drop my arm that much with our bodies being somewhat far apart (compared to the body contact between 2 competitive dancers, for instance, which most "socialites" don't do).

i agree, sometimes i have the man's arm drop almost to my waist level - that makes it difficult to have any kind of connection.

[dTas]

so what's a remedy for getting poor dancing socialites to want to improve?

or are we talking about nubies who will eventually learn? if its nubies then i think we have to have patience with them. you can't learn everything all at once. but if there are experienced social dancers out there what are just too lazy and don't care about how their partners feel when dancing with them, then that's another issue.

if there are people out there that are hurting other dancers due to their arrogance and ignorance then something should be done. there should be some sort of ediquitte to let them know that they're hurting other people, not welcome, or that they need to improve.

[tacad]

Quote:
Originally Posted by saludas
The follow's job is not, of course, to critique the leader (LOL as if THAT never happens), but there is no need for the arm to be 'more up', as the angle of the arm from the shoulder to elbow is defined by the man's frame and it's relation to the follow; but if it is too 'low for the lady, then she can simply keep HER frome, and make contact only with the hand.

If it's social dance, of course, just bear up for the 2.5 minutes, and then after thanking him, look at him dancing with others - if he is too hunched over, for instance, then no amount of 'commenting' will correct this at once. Keep expectations low at a social...

No, change your expectations at a social.


In any social dance, some dancers are easy to dance with, others are more difficult. Some are more stylish, others are not. Some are extremely adaptable others are not. Some have formal training, others do not. Some are fun to dance with, others are not. Some you connect with on an emotional level, others you don't connect with. With some you can express the character of the dance, and with others you cannot. Different dance venues have different characters as well and combine the above variables in different combinations. So each provides a different experience. At some dances I work primarily on my technique since there are better dancers there. At others I'll concentrate more on my partner and having a good time with her. Anyway, this is my experience.

[lynn]

but even newbies can be categorized as 2 types: the ones willing to learn and the ones won't. I've come across plenty of leaders (and followers are no exceptions) who refuse to recognize that they *could* be at fault. I remember there was once that i had a problem with one particular figure in class and after probably the 10th try and we still couldn't get it right, i finally called the teacher for help. My then partner looked @ me as if i've done something outrageously wrong and refused to dance with me ever since :( ....

[dTas]

there will always be all kinds of dancers but that doesn't mean there can't be some kind of ediquitte that we all can follow to help make everyone a better dancer.

in society we hire police and lawmakers to help keep things orderly and make sure people don't do things to harm others.

i don't like the idea of having "dance police" but the way we treat others could be our "policing factor". just like it is mostly agreed upon there there is a floor ediquite that needs to be followed to keep things flowing. this is a widely agreed upon "rule" that we have to problem bringing up with those who break it.

there should be some acceptible way to give feedback to "offending" dancers to help make the dance experience better for all of us. i don't think accepting the status quo and letting people "figure it out for themselves" is working very well.

[tacad]

so what's a remedy for getting poor dancing socialites to want to improve?


Is there any real need to get them to improve? They're having fun. I guess if the different levels of dancers would mix more they might want to improve.

EDIT: I guess I missed dTas paragraph talking about improving so you don't hurt anybody. Totally agreed.

[lynn]

um....i think an improvement is necessary if you're causing your partner injuries (and you're not aware of!)

[Medira]

um....i think an improvement is necessary if you're causing your partner injuries (and you're not aware of!)
I'm in total agreement here, especially since I'm still not fully healed after I got injured on the dance floor 5 weeks ago.

[lynn]

I'm in total agreement here, especially since I'm still not fully healed after I got injured on the dance floor 5 weeks ago.

ouch!

Here's a horror story for everyone: i was complaining to my teacher one day about a leader who was being too forceful with his lead. My teacher then told me about an 80 y.o. lady who was elbowed in the face during one of her classes! She never came back and frankly if i was elbowed in the face, i think there would be a serious fear factor involved.

[tacad]

um....i think an improvement is necessary if you're causing your partner injuries (and you're not aware of!)

I missed this part of dTas' post. :oops: I'm afraid I was only thinking of improving the skill level of social dancers in general.
if there are people out there that are hurting other dancers due to their arrogance and ignorance then something should be done. there should be some sort of ediquitte to let them know that they're hurting other people, not welcome, or that they need to improve.

[lynn]

but i think dancing is like everything else - there will always be those who believe their way is the only way. Sometimes a simple "no, thank you" is the only wake up call for them. Harsh, but unfortunately, followers have to learn to protect themselves.... now, if i can bench 400lbs....THAT might be a different story :lol: !

[tacad]

I suppose people that have been physically hurt could let the host of the dance know, then s/he could inform the offending dancer.

[lynn]

true, but the pain is always with those who refuse to believe that they could contribute to the injury. But sometimes i find it hard to tell a total newbie that he's hurting me - they're intimidated enough as is, i don't want to scare them off the dancing arena forever.....

[skwiggy]

I know people's egos can be sensitive. So if someone's hurting me, I'll tell them, but I'll blame it on myself. I'll say something like, "I have a bad back, can you please be a bit gentler?" That way he can save face and still stop hurting me at the same time.

(And by the way, it's not a lie, because I do have a bad back. ;) )

[dancing_princess]

Is there any real need to get them to improve? They're having fun. I guess if the different levels of dancers would mix more they might want to improve.

While it helps to improve so that others are not harmed, I think people should improve if they want others to dance with them (you know, the point of couple dancing).

I've danced with a few people (and who knows, maybe some guys out there feel the same about me) who I try to not make eye contact with when I see them "prowling" for a partner.

Heck, I was unfortunate enough to dance with a guy who nearly yanked my arm off in the hustle. I couldn't even keep up with him (he was pretty much just yanking me around). If I was smarter or meaner, I should have stopped after a few seconds. But, I bite the bullet and finished the song.

[wyllo]

Survival tip: when you get a guy who tries to yank your arms out of the socket engage your lats and keep your elbows bent or flexed.

I honestly have never had the nerve to tell a guy that he is doing something uncomfortable. I'd like to think I'd tell someone if they were doing something dangerous, but I haven't had that happen socially. I do refuse to let strange guys dip me, but in most cases I can just put my foot down and stop the move (or do a small dip) and that gets the message across without having to have a conversation that might offend someone.

[skwiggy]

Survival tip: when you get a guy who tries to yank your arms out of the socket engage your lats and keep your elbows bent or flexed.


This is good advice most of the time. Unfortunately, some guys think that they need to overpower the follower, so when they feel the extra tone from this tactic, they yank even harder.

Also, if you have a bad back, make sure to engage your abs as much as possible to help protect it while they're yanking.

On occasions when it was *really* bad, I have even said "ow" out loud after a yank. Most guys apologize and lighten up. Oblivious ones don't even notice and just keep doing what they're doing.

[lynn]

i think we may need a thread on "survival tips" :wink: !!

[dTas]

Survival tip: when you get a guy who tries to yank your arms out of the socket engage your lats and keep your elbows bent or flexed.


also... this doesn't work as well in closed position when men break people in two trying to put them in promenade.

[wyllo]

also... this doesn't work as well in closed position when men break people in two trying to put them in promenade.

Yikes! I count myself lucky as I haven't run into some of these problems people are bringing up. It makes me think there needs to be a serious effort to make social dancing in the U.S. pain-free! Hmm... all we need is a catchy slogan.

[tacad]

I think I read this in the salsa forum: When being yanked around, go limp. Don't give resistance. They said it would keep you from getting hurt.

[chica latina]

I think I read this in the salsa forum: When being yanked around, go limp. Don't give resistance. They said it would keep you from getting hurt.

I disconnect my arms completely, because usually if you fight them, they win (they are stronger than me).

[dTas]

I disconnect my arms completely, because usually if you fight them, they win (they are stronger than me).

LMAO!! i just had images of you removing your arms and giving them to your partner.

[pygmalion]

I think social dancers, for the most part, are less uptight.

*giggle*

[tacad]

LMAO!! i just had images of you removing your arms and giving them to your partner.

As did I. :lol:

[chica latina]

That's how I feel when it happens!!!

[tacad]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[dancing_princess]

I think the survival tip I will employ - never, ever dance with that man again. Never! I think that my arm was relaxed at the time (considering that my new teacher is trying to get rid of my "spaghetti" arms!!).

I'm not sure if tricks applied in salsa will work the same way in hustle.

[Chris Stratton]

What's the difference?

Well, who gets up early to go social dancing first thing in the morning?

[fascination]

or endure three hours of grueling coaching costing big $$ on a saturday night after having spent all day at the hospital and then only to feel less confident but more informed and have to rehabilitate oneself in a week so that one can get up at 6am two days in a row to dance in ohio....what kind of fool is this;) ...very very twisted;) ...social dancers are pretty smart

[tacad]

Well, who gets up early to go social dancing first thing in the morning?
Now there's a thought. :doh:

or endure three hours of grueling coaching costing big $$ on a saturday night...
:shock:

Let me repeat that.

:shock:

[tsb]

LMAO!! i just had images of you removing your arms and giving them to your partner.

it's amazing what you can do with velcro nowadays.

[jon]

if there are people out there that are hurting other dancers due to their arrogance and ignorance then something should be done. there should be some sort of ediquitte to let them know that they're hurting other people, not welcome, or that they need to improve.

There is. It is called "telling them". But many people are unwilling to ever say anything about these problems, as evidenced by how often this topic comes up in every single partner dance forum I've read, no matter the dance form.

The "etiquette" that most needs to be changed is the apparently pervasive one that makes people unwilling to say when something isn't working or they're being hurt or having their personal boundaries violated.

So far the group I've encountered that puts the most energy into assertiveness training for new dancers is the Blues dance community.

[dTas]

There is. It is called "telling them". But many people are unwilling to ever say anything about these problems, as evidenced by how often this topic comes up in every single partner dance forum I've read, no matter the dance form.

The "etiquette" that most needs to be changed is the apparently pervasive one that makes people unwilling to say when something isn't working or they're being hurt or having their personal boundaries violated.

So far the group I've encountered that puts the most energy into assertiveness training for new dancers is the Blues dance community.

oh i agree with you, Jon... whole heartedly. actually that was what i was eluding to. no one seems to want to offend other people these days so they let themselves get hurt and then complain to others while the "offender" goes off and works over someone else.

how's that helping?!? you've gotta stop and catch the offender not everyone around him/her.

now the trick here is just to provide enough feedback and not too much. no one wants to be given a lesson on the floor, especially by someone they don't know at a social dance.

feedback on injuries or offensive moves would be good justification to say something. you don't want that kind of behavior to go on. bad technique, incorrect moves, etc etc... that's not up to a social dancer to correct. leave that up to that persons instructor (unless you're asked for feedback)

[Another Elizabeth]

it's amazing what you can do with velcro nowadays.
Anyone seen the old short about "Lee Press-On Limbs"?

[tacad]

it's amazing what you can do with velcro nowadays.
Actually, those women in your avatar look velcroed to you.

[Merrylegs]

I went social dancing this weekend and tested out some of the theories on this thread. Here is what I encountered:

Friday night I went to my studio for their weekly party. I danced mostly Latin that night which is always fun for me since I don't compete in this style now but miss it a lot. I did dance a very nice American Waltz with one of Larinda's students. (You taught him well!)

Nothing too glaringly out of the ordinary here. I danced with people who ranged from complete beginner to professional. A newbie danced a Salsa with me and he counted the whole time. He was nice, polite and could lead very well.

I believe that since this party took place at a studio that it was attended by people who regularly take private lessons. (This is not confirmed.)

Saturday night I went to Ryle's in Cambridge (A club) (my studio runs and organizes the weekly party). I danced with a whole bunch of people who danced a whole bunch of different styles and levels.

Of particular note:

Jose'
Bachata music was playing but we danced Merengue to it. He commented how beautiful the music was about 3 times. He had a great time and I didn't mind, he was so happy just to be dancing. (This IS what it's all about.)

I danced a great Cha Cha with cy_phi. Lots of attitude and sass, it was a lot of fun. Thanks! You're a great dancer.

Some Dude
I danced a Salsa and a Swing with some guy I had never seen before. His style was self taught or group class only. In the Salsa he kept switching from On1 timing to On2. Needless to say, it was really difficult to follow him. He also dipped me dangerously and too forcefully. The first time I allowed it, the 2nd time I refused to go into the dip.

A Foxtrot came on and he insisted that I show him the steps. Oh, okay, mini lesson time! We went around the floor in a basic, promenade and used the rock step to get around the corners. I had to back lead the whole time. Not really an issue for me.

A Viennese Waltz was played a little later and he asked again to be shown the steps. Sorry, but I'm not teaching a V Waltz at a club on a Saturday night (or really ever, it's a hard dance to teach, IMO). He asked 4 times to be shown the dance and I finally said, sorry, it's not going to happen. He just walked away.

Dave
He's a pro and a blast to dance with. I think we danced a Hustle that night.

Regina's boyfriend (can't remember his name)
We danced a CHa Cha, I think. He's a great lead, it was cool to dance with him. I think he's been dancing/taking lessons for a long time.

Some Other Dude
We danced a Salsa and we were off time for a lot of it. Here is the never-ending-unanswered-question: how does a follower get the leader back on time and not offend? Well, I still don't have an answer so we danced off time for about half the song.

So what does this say?

Well, IMO, the people who take lessons were better able to lead, stay on time and knew how to be polite, i.e.; asked me to dance, thanked me for the dance, looked out for me when I was being led into a crowd, etc. Even the newbie from Friday night did this!

The others? Varied in degrees of style, ability, manners, etc.

[Merrylegs]

Anyone seen the old short about "Lee Press-On Limbs"?

YES! This is from an old Spike & Mike ANimation Festival, right? I think I still have that video somewhere.

Wow, I haven't thought about that in a long time, like 10 years.

BTW, your daughter is so cute I could eat her up!

[Joe]

Um, "Get in ma fat belly?"

[Merrylegs]

Um, "Get in ma fat belly?"

O.K., you're scaring me now. What does this refer to?

[Dancefever]

Fat Bast*** from Austin Powers.

[tsb]

Actually, those women in your avatar look velcroed to you.

they're two of the three miss L.A. chinatown contestants i'm rehearsing with for the pageant in january.

[Quimbly]

"You two should compete!"
"Do you two compete?"
"You two MUST compete, no?"

Almost every time my wife and I go out dancing we hear one of these lines from someone at the dance. Frankly, I'm getting tired of hearing it, and actually it kind of bothers me.

My wife and I have been dancing for several years now, but we've never competed. We've never taken private lessons, and really, have never be very "serious" about dancing. That's not to say we don't love dancing; we most certainly do! It's one of our great passions, but we've never had the desire to compete. We are constantly wanting to improve our technique and add new dances and patterns to our repetoire. But all for the sake of fun! We're good dancers, but I suspect why people enjoy our dancing so much is only partly because of our ability, and probably more because of just how much we love what we're doing. Why do people assume that just because they what they see that we we SHOULD compete?!

I know that many people say that they enjoy the challenge of competition, and they they get off on competing against others, performing for a crowd, etc. The thing is, I don't buy it...(at least not for most competitors).

My wife and I go to several different studios for our group lessons and dance socials, and almost every time we go we see some couple that is obviously training for an upcoming competition. You know the couples I'm talking about: they have furrowed brows; they yell and get angry with each other for various reasons; they practice the most minute details of a single step over and over so many times that you can tell they are hating it; they are tortured by some loudmouth instructor, analyzing all of the things they did wrong in one step; or when everyone else in the room is dancing socially, enjoying a great song, they often aren't even dancing to the music (or ever to the dance style) as they practice their routine. That last one bugs me the most. The music is playing, you're at a social dance event, everyone around you is having a great time, enjoying life, letting the music move them, and the competitors are rehersing two steps of their routine's introduction over and over, scowls and grump all over their faces. Egads, people!

Sure, there is no doubt about the appeal of training hard to accomplish something and having it come to fruition, like training all year for a competition and then doing your best, and winning (or not). But in all the years I've been dancing, I can honestly say that I've never seen a dancer in training for a competition that actually enjoys themselves. Life just seems too short to not be enjoying what you do.

Who knows...maybe my wife and I will bore of group lessons and perfecting our social dance skills and make the leap into competition. Somehow I doubt it, though. We love life and love dancing too much to try and force ourselves to be miserable about something that should be uplifting and fun!

I'm sure others don't see it my way, but this one is a no-brainer in my mind....

[alemana]

*unfurls umbrella*

[Merrylegs]

*unfurls umbrella*

Are you expecting the sh** storm I see on the horizon? Run, people!

[dTas]

"You two should compete!"
"Do you two compete?"
"You two MUST compete, no?"

Almost every time my wife and I go out dancing we hear one of these lines from someone at the dance. Frankly, I'm getting tired of hearing it, and actually it kind of bothers me.

My wife and I have been dancing for several years now, but we've never competed. We've never taken private lessons, and really, have never be very "serious" about dancing. That's not to say we don't love dancing; we most certainly do! It's one of our great passions, but we've never had the desire to compete. We are constantly wanting to improve our technique and add new dances and patterns to our repetoire. But all for the sake of fun! We're good dancers, but I suspect why people enjoy our dancing so much is only partly because of our ability, and probably more because of just how much we love what we're doing. Why do people assume that just because they what they see that we we SHOULD compete?!

I know that many people say that they enjoy the challenge of competition, and they they get off on competing against others, performing for a crowd, etc. The thing is, I don't buy it...(at least not for most competitors).

My wife and I go to several different studios for our group lessons and dance socials, and almost every time we go we see some couple that is obviously training for an upcoming competition. You know the couples I'm talking about: they have furrowed brows; they yell and get angry with each other for various reasons; they practice the most minute details of a single step over and over so many times that you can tell they are hating it; they are tortured by some loudmouth instructor, analyzing all of the things they did wrong in one step; or when everyone else in the room is dancing socially, enjoying a great song, they often aren't even dancing to the music (or ever to the dance style) as they practice their routine. That last one bugs me the most. The music is playing, you're at a social dance event, everyone around you is having a great time, enjoying life, letting the music move them, and the competitors are rehersing two steps of their routine's introduction over and over, scowls and grump all over their faces. Egads, people!

Sure, there is no doubt about the appeal of training hard to accomplish something and having it come to fruition, like training all year for a competition and then doing your best, and winning (or not). But in all the years I've been dancing, I can honestly say that I've never seen a dancer in training for a competition that actually enjoys themselves. Life just seems too short to not be enjoying what you do.

Who knows...maybe my wife and I will bore of group lessons and perfecting our social dance skills and make the leap into competition. Somehow I doubt it, though. We love life and love dancing too much to try and force ourselves to be miserable about something that should be uplifting and fun!

I'm sure others don't see it my way, but this one is a no-brainer in my mind....

WHOO HOOO! YEAH! YIPPIEE!!!

boy! i've been trying to say this over and over and over and over!!! its about time someone else gets up on thier soap box!

i couldn't agree with you more!

THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU!

[mamboqueen]

Well, I, too have seen competitive dancers who are in that kind of mindset at social dances. I actually laugh. I saw one couple, through the course of 3 hours of social dancing, actually make it around the floor ONCE. They sat miserably in their chairs, not looking at anyone...would occasionally get up and get into "position" as if to start dancing, take 3 steps and sit down again. I have also seen the husband-wife near brawl happen a few times too. I dunno...if you can't have any fun dancing at a social event, maybe you should practice elsewhere. Unless, of course, you want to be noticed in this miserable looking state.

[dTas]

"You two should compete!"
"Do you two compete?"
"You two MUST compete, no?"


do you ever wonder why they look so good? maybe its because they're not competing.

they're not worrying about what they're doing and doing naturally what they feel and love. not trying to manufacture it and carve it out of stone, they're letting it flow like water.

[tacad]

*unfurls umbrella*
:lol:

[Quimbly]

Are you expecting the sh** storm I see on the horizon? Run, people!

Uh-oh, does mean people are going to start trashing me for my opinions?

[Quimbly]

Well, I, too have seen competitive dancers who are in that kind of mindset at social dances. I actually laugh. I saw one couple, through the course of 3 hours of social dancing, actually make it around the floor ONCE. They sat miserably in their chairs, not looking at anyone...would occasionally get up and get into "position" as if to start dancing, take 3 steps and sit down again. I have also seen the husband-wife near brawl happen a few times too. I dunno...if you can't have any fun dancing at a social event, maybe you should practice elsewhere. Unless, of course, you want to be noticed in this miserable looking state.

I know exactly what you mean! The sad thing is, you have to question WHY these people are at the socials? It's not like they need the space, since they only ever do one or two steps of their routine and then restart. It's not like they're there for the music, since they don't dance to it. It's not like they're there for the dance flow, since they "rewind" and walk backward around line-of-dance to restart their routine. What's left? I can only conclude that they're there to be all hoity-toity, trying to impress all of the beginner dancers of how well they can dance the first two steps of their routine.... Give me a break....

[Quimbly]

do you ever wonder why they look so good? maybe its because they're not competing.

they're not worrying about what they're doing and doing naturally what they feel and love. not trying to manufacture it and carve it out of stone, they're letting it flow like water.

Yes, I think this is exactly it. My wife and I LOVE dancing, and it shows. More than fancy patterns and good technique, I think people like to watch us dance because we're having so much damned fun! Our love for each other and for dancing comes out in what we do on the dancefloor. Honestly, from what I've seen of competitions and competitors, I can only imagine competition destroying what we have.

[Merrylegs]

Well, I, too have seen competitive dancers who are in that kind of mindset at social dances. I actually laugh. I saw one couple, through the course of 3 hours of social dancing, actually make it around the floor ONCE. They sat miserably in their chairs, not looking at anyone...would occasionally get up and get into "position" as if to start dancing, take 3 steps and sit down again. I have also seen the husband-wife near brawl happen a few times too. I dunno...if you can't have any fun dancing at a social event, maybe you should practice elsewhere. Unless, of course, you want to be noticed in this miserable looking state.

I have two comments about this post:

1. I know the couple of which you speak. On a good day they are not happy looking people. Neurotic and insecure are probably the best words I know to describe them. They probably acted like that at their wedding.

2. What about all the social dancers that flail about on the dance floor, don't know how to use (or even heard of) floor craft? The leaders think nothing of crashing their partner into someone. Their forced ignorance makes for a bad experience for the rest of us. They wrench the follower's arm out of the socket, and generally throw her around like a ragdoll.

At least with regards to the competitive couple, the only people who are unhappy are themselves. Actually, I bet they're not unhappy, they're really focused on what they're doing.

[Merrylegs]

I know exactly what you mean! The sad thing is, you have to question WHY these people are at the socials? It's not like they need the space, since they only ever do one or two steps of their routine and then restart. It's not like they're there for the music, since they don't dance to it. It's not like they're there for the dance flow, since they "rewind" and walk backward around line-of-dance to restart their routine. What's left? I can only conclude that they're there to be all hoity-toity, trying to impress all of the beginner dancers of how well they can dance the first two steps of their routine.... Give me a break....

Did you ever stop to think that maybe they ARE having a good time? Why is your idea of a good time the only measuring tool?

I, for one, love to break down all of the idiosyncrasies of the dance. That's a good time for me.

Some people collect stamps as a hobby, some go skydiving.

[wyllo]

Honestly, from what I've seen of competitions and competitors, I can only imagine competition destroying what we have.

I'm going to say that competition would only ruin what you have if you let it. Competitors can and do have fun! (and I've seen plenty of social dancers who seem to abhor what they're doing). The best dancers are those that are enjoyable to watch -- whether you are at a social dance or competition. It's really too bad that you don't seem to have any positive competition role-models in your area. That being said, good for you for knowing what you want out of dance and choosing that path. Hopefullly, you will inspire some of those competition couples to lighten up!

[lynn]

I'm going to say that competition would only ruin what you have if you let it. Competitors can and do have fun! (and I've seen plenty of social dancers who seem to abhor what they're doing). The best dancers are those that are enjoyable to watch -- whether you are at a social dance or competition. It's really too bad that you don't seem to have any positive competition role-models in your area. That being said, good for you for knowing what you want out of dance and choosing that path. Hopefullly, you will inspire some of those competition couples to lighten up!

:applause:

exactly!

[dTas]

"the best dancers are those that are enjoyable to watch" - wyllo

clumsy beginners and introverted competitors do not fall within this realm.

[Merrylegs]

I know that many people say that they enjoy the challenge of competition, and they they get off on competing against others, performing for a crowd, etc. The thing is, I don't buy it...(at least not for most competitors).


What don't you buy? Are you saying that no athlete enjoys performing for a crowd and/or competing against others? That's a pretty narrow minded point of view.

What about high school and college athletics? What about pro skaters and gymnasts and ball players?

What do you think is the reason for their interest in competing? Specifically regarding dancesport competitors, that is.



Sure, there is no doubt about the appeal of training hard to accomplish something and having it come to fruition, like training all year for a competition and then doing your best, and winning (or not). But in all the years I've been dancing, I can honestly say that I've never seen a dancer in training for a competition that actually enjoys themselves. Life just seems too short to not be enjoying what you do.


Never seen a dancesport competitor actually enjoying themselves? C'mon! You should come to my studio sometime.

[Chris Stratton]

Ballroom competition isn't for everyone. But the people who can't see why there would be a point to it generally have not been around anyone who is managing to make much progress towards their goals as a comeptitor.

[dTas]

and again "the gread divide" opens up....

[Merrylegs]

Ballroom competition isn't for everyone. But the people who can't see why there would be a point to it generally have not been around anyone who is managing to make much progress towards their goals as a comeptitor.

Well put, Chris.

[Quimbly]

What don't you buy? Are you saying that no athlete enjoys performing for a crowd and/or competing against others? That's a pretty narrow minded point of view.

What about high school and college athletics? What about pro skaters and gymnasts and ball players?

What do you think is the reason for their interest in competing? Specifically regarding dancesport competitors, that is.

Never seen a dancesport competitor actually enjoying themselves? C'mon! You should come to my studio sometime.

I'm sure there are people who do enjoy competition, as I mentioned. But, no, I've personally never seen a dancesport competitor enjoying themselves, and no doubt that's shaped my opinion of dancesport competition. I guess it just irks me to see people who go through life only ever trying to out-do someone else, and missing all the great fun along the way... smelling the roses, so to speak.

...Of course, this is just my perception. Maybe yelling at your partner, and being yelled at, practicing the same two steps ad nauseum, and never dancing to the music is what some people call fun. All I can say that is, how sad! :(

Ok then, all you staunch defenders of competative dancesport...Please share with us why you enjoy competition so much? Why do you do it and what do you get out of it?

[dTas]

i can see enjoyment in competitive dancing. and i think competitors can enjoy their dance just as much as social dancers.

but its the ones who "punish" themselves that i don't understand. and i'm not talking about physical abuse. i do triathlons, i love pushing my body to its limits, but when its all said and done i'm happy. i smile and tell everyone how wonderful it was.

but several competitors i've seen abuse themselves mentally. they yell at each other, fight with each other, scream, cry... etc etc.

you can't tell me that this is fun.

to give credit to competitors i have also seen couples in perfect harmony enjoying what they're doing and having a great time... now back the the other 95%. ;)

[mamboqueen]

I have two comments about this post:

2. What about all the social dancers that flail about on the dance floor, don't know how to use (or even heard of) floor craft? The leaders think nothing of crashing their partner into someone. Their forced ignorance makes for a bad experience for the rest of us. They wrench the follower's arm out of the socket, and generally throw her around like a ragdoll.

At least with regards to the competitive couple, the only people who are unhappy are themselves. Actually, I bet they're not unhappy, they're really focused on what they're doing.

(Removed #1 because not addressing it).

As for #2, yeah, it can be a pain bumping into people, but I really haven't had too may problems with collisions -- but that might be because I'm on the floor doing latin more than smooth. Some collisions, but not a lot. And sometimes I do find myself wincing knowing I don't see what I think is about to come. But, all in all, I think for the most part, one standard couple swooping across the floor, full throttle (and not taking it down a bit, as I have seen some standard dancers do) and in "outta my way" mode can be equally frightening. A lot of social dancers sit around rolling their eyes and commiserating about some of these people (and I say "some," not all.). Maybe it's just that sometimes competitive dancers and social dancers on the floor at the same time just isn't a good mix. I don't know. I don't get out much...so I don't see it much.

[mamboqueen]

I'm sure there are people who do enjoy competition, as I mentioned. But, no, I've personally never seen a dancesport competitor enjoying themselves, and no doubt that's shaped my opinion of dancesport competition. I guess it just irks me to see people who go through life only ever trying to out-do someone else, and missing all the great fun along the way... smelling the roses, so to speak.

...Of course, this is just my perception. Maybe yelling at your partner, and being yelled at, practicing the same two steps ad nauseum, and never dancing to the music is what some people call fun. All I can say that is, how sad! :(

Ok then, all you staunch defenders of competative dancesport...Please share with us why you enjoy competition so much? Why do you do it and what do you get out of it?


I compete and thoroughly enjoy it. I want to dance a certain way, and it's just not the way people dance at social events. Plus, I like getting up in front of people and performing (it has taken me a loooooong time to come to this!). I have to say, I'm not really a competitive person by nature, but I feel like it's a challenge for me to compete and try to improve by competing. FYI - I do pro/am, so no "partner" to yell at. I would never yell at my teacher...he's way too nice.

I really find it to be quite fun, too. I do smell the roses along the way. I get to meet a lot of really nice people I probably wouldn't normally meet...get to see a lot of cities I probably wouldn't normally visit.

Oh yeah, the dresses are nice, too :)

[tanya_the_dancer]

Yes, I think this is exactly it. My wife and I LOVE dancing, and it shows. More than fancy patterns and good technique, I think people like to watch us dance because we're having so much damned fun! Our love for each other and for dancing comes out in what we do on the dancefloor. Honestly, from what I've seen of competitions and competitors, I can only imagine competition destroying what we have.

I am relatively new to pro-am competitions (have done 4 so far), but I have been dancing for more than 7 years by now. I have to say that I love competing and preparing for that. I didn't think I would, I thought I was too shy for that sort of thing. But I tried it and I loved it. I find it enjoyable and challenging to work on preparing for them and then I enjoy going out there with my pro partner and doing my best. I still like to dance socially, but I don't find it as challenging now.

[tanya_the_dancer]

I'm sure there are people who do enjoy competition, as I mentioned. But, no, I've personally never seen a dancesport competitor enjoying themselves, and no doubt that's shaped my opinion of dancesport competition. I guess it just irks me to see people who go through life only ever trying to out-do someone else, and missing all the great fun along the way... smelling the roses, so to speak.

...Of course, this is just my perception. Maybe yelling at your partner, and being yelled at, practicing the same two steps ad nauseum, and never dancing to the music is what some people call fun. All I can say that is, how sad! :(

Ok then, all you staunch defenders of competative dancesport...Please share with us why you enjoy competition so much? Why do you do it and what do you get out of it?

I started to compete pro-am 2 years ago. I found that I enjoy it, despite the fact that I am shy and introverted person. I like competitive edge, trying to do my best and getting grades for that. I like dressing up in fancy outfits and for once looking many times more glamorous than I look on a daily basis. Since I compete pro-am, nobody yells at me and I don't yell at anyone either. I enjoy working out what I can do to make myself better, setting goals for the next comp and working towards them. For me, social dancing lacks this challenge aspect. I still enjoy it, but it's not enough for me.

[Merrylegs]

(Removed #1 because not addressing it).

As for #2, yeah, it can be a pain bumping into people, but I really haven't had too may problems with collisions -- but that might be because I'm on the floor doing latin more than smooth. Some collisions, but not a lot. And sometimes I do find myself wincing knowing I don't see what I think is about to come. But, all in all, I think for the most part, one standard couple swooping across the floor, full throttle (and not taking it down a bit, as I have seen some standard dancers do) and in "outta my way" mode can be equally frightening. A lot of social dancers sit around rolling their eyes and commiserating about some of these people (and I say "some," not all.). Maybe it's just that sometimes competitive dancers and social dancers on the floor at the same time just isn't a good mix. I don't know. I don't get out much...so I don't see it much.

Queen,

I get out all the time, girl, so I see lots of stuff. The funny thing is, I don't mind it. I know that when I'm out at a Salsa club or at my studio on a Friday night or at Ryle's on a Saturday, that I will be out with social dancers. (So, I wear my shin guards. Just kidding.)

What I'm saying is, there is room for all of us, and I DO enjoy social dancing. In fact, somewhere on an earlier page in this thread I did say that I'd forgotten how to have fun social dancing, I am striving to change that. There was a very long stretch of time where I didn't social dance at all. I only danced with my coach on lessons for about 5 months time. I was forgetting how to just get out on the dance floor and let go so I committed myself to getting out to social dance more often. I'm really liking it, actually.

Social dancing fills a niche, so does competitive dancing. I get irked when someone from one side criticizes the other. (As I write this I realize that for many, there aren't 2 sides of ballroom dancing. That's the best place to be, right in the middle getting the best from both.)

About my talking point #1, they are an extreme example.

[chica latina]

Ok then, all you staunch defenders of competative dancesport...Please share with us why you enjoy competition so much? Why do you do it and what do you get out of it?

I grew in a culture in which everyone does social dancing, so I've danced socially since I'm young. When I saw competitive couples, I knew that's what I wanted. I am a competitive person and I want to do the best that I can do (or my body allows me to). So I enjoy seeing the results that hard work and focused practices gives.

Now, I consider the competitive aspect like a roller coaster. We love taking lessons, most of the time. But.....when a competition is coming, things get rough. My partner and I don't yell at each other but we get upset, frustrated with ourselves and can't dance a few measures in a row. Then we pass that stage and remember "why are we dancing, because we love to". Not for the judges, not to beat someone else but because we LOVE to move to the music together and feeling of a great connection (body and spatial), full movement, complete stretches, etc... We like the aspect of having a goal and sharing it with others. We enjoy getting ready to perform, giving your best and having people appreciate the efforts and improvement.

Since I consider myself a shy person, I don't enjoy the same doing shows. Having other people in the floor, pushes me to do my best and perform so that I'm seen.

Thank god, I'm in that stage now... Getting ready for Ohio this weekend..

[wyllo]

I compete because I want to be the best dancer I can be. Competitions aren't validation (if everyone on the floor is great, there is still only one 'winner'), but they are a motivation. I need goals to work hard to improve my dancing and to get myself to work out to stay in shape for dancing. Plus, I enjoy competing and performing and meeting other dancers from exotic places like Minnesota and Kentucky. :)

[saludas]

"the best dancers are those that are enjoyable to watch" - wyllo

clumsy beginners and introverted competitors do not fall within this realm.

Sorry, but no, the best dancers are the ones who dance the best.

Why do you think that smiles and show make a good dancer?

[saludas]

I'm sure there are people who do enjoy competition, as I mentioned. But, no, I've personally never seen a dancesport competitor enjoying themselves, and no doubt that's shaped my opinion of dancesport competition.

That's because they are not around you when they are 'enjoying themselves'. Most competitive dancers find their 'high' not at the local social, but in the pursuit of their interest.

When you are enjoying yourself, your facial expression doesn't count. For instance, a rock climber is VERY happy climbing and working very hard, but doesn't 'smile'. Ditto a bodybuilder lifting a heavy weight. I think you confuse YOUR needs at a social with the other person's needs. They are not there to make YOU feel good, by smiling...

And what makes you believe that a smiling person is a happy person? Really?

[wyllo]

Sorry, but no, the best dancers are the ones who dance the best.

Why do you think that smiles and show make a good dancer?

I don't think smiles and show make people good dancers. What I mean is that the qualities that make you a good dancer also make you pleasing to watch -- effortless movement, good posture, precision and control and, yes, dancers who enjoy what they are doing. At least that's my opinion -- I am amazed at how often friends of mine will point out a couple that is doing a lot of moves with bad technique and no control and say 'wow, they're really good.' To me I just see sloppy dancers executing steps they can't handle. But maybe that's just because I have been exposed to dancers who have moved beyond that stage and know what it can look like.

[redhead]

"the best dancers are those that are enjoyable to watch" - wyllo

clumsy beginners and introverted competitors do not fall within this realm.
hands off beginners! they'll be good someday

[saludas]

I don't think smiles and show make people good dancers. What I mean is that the qualities that make you a good dancer also make you pleasing to watch -- effortless movement, good posture, precision and control and, yes, dancers who enjoy what they are doing. At least that's my opinion -- I am amazed at how often friends of mine will point out a couple that is doing a lot of moves with bad technique and no control and say 'wow, they're really good.' To me I just see sloppy dancers executing steps they can't handle. But maybe that's just because I have been exposed to dancers who have moved beyond that stage and know what it can look like.

Well, you prove my point - looking like you are 'having a good time' does not mean anything.

But seriously, facial expression is not a part of this, really.

[redhead]

It makes me wonder why some people assume that if dancers compete am/am, they must yell at each other and get upset. Well my partner and I don't since we respect each other and realize we both work hard.
On the other hand, I have been screamed at by a social salsa dancer because I "couldn't do multiple spins" - though I do them all the time with other people, it's just that he always started me off time on incorrect foot.

[dTas]

why do we have to classify "good" dancers as the ones that have had the most training or are competing?

there are good beginners and awful competitors.

also... at a dance party, why must people practice or do their routines? there are practice times and floor times for that.

on a floor with people dancing dynamicly (changing direction on a whim, not always following line of dance, stopping here and there) to have a couple doing a strict routine and either bowling over people or getting mad at them for getting in the way is not adding to the friendly environment.

[chica latina]

I beleive that yes, there are beginners that have the potential to become good ballroom dancers and I appreciate that in social settings or newcomer competition level.. but they are not there yet, since they don't have the necessary training.
Awful competitors? I guess there are some, but what are you referring to? Not having the technique yet, no rhythm? Also it depends at what level you are referring to.

[wyllo]

Since the subject has moved towards floorcraft, I'm going to throw this out there: advanced dancers (social or competitive) are MORE responsible for floorcraft.

IMO a brand new dancer should not be expected to 'stay out of the way' and does not have the arsenal of steps needed to do complicated navigation. If you are a more advanced dancer and moving bigger and faster, then it is your responsbility to do so in a safe manner and if you cannot do that, you need to dial it down a bit.

[mamboqueen]

I think the bottom line is you simply can't make generalizations about any group of people.

There are good and bad social dancers, good and bad competitive dancers, happy looking dancers, miserable looking dancers....and then there's the subjectiveness about good, bad, happy and sad to throw into the mix.

[Chris Stratton]

also... at a dance party, why must people practice or do their routines? there are practice times and floor times for that.

Sometimes. Back when I was in Boston, one of the best places for a competition couple to run things was at a chronically under-attended social held on a huge floor. It was pretty much the only time outside of a competition you'd actually get on a competition-sized floor since none of the other studios there had such (and many colleges stopped making gyms available to their teams except for competitions). Since it was big, everyone could pretty much do their own thing, with various antics at most providing a subject of conversation for those not currently dancing.

Here in NY we have daily access to a full length floor, but sadly not one that is also full width. That is actually causing some substantial problems, because whatever is planned for a short side always comes out in cramped form, without the right flow between travel and rotation - unless we take it out of context and relocate it to a long side for practice. However because access to that floor for practice purposes is easy and affordable, there's less reason to use the socials held there as practice sessions. At other studios less organized around amateur couples, the easiest/cheapest time to get on their floor might well be at a social.

[Dancefever]

To define your view of dancing as, "Dancing is ...". The competitors, social dancers, swingers, lindy hoppers and Salsarettas (sp?) shouldn't cast anything negitive on what others do. I social dance very comfortably on many floors and I also compete 9 dance. There was a time when it was hard to be relaxed on a social floor when I was getting so competitive. When I spent so much time on my competitive side it was inevitable that my partner and I wouldn't cut loose on a social floor and break into a few advanced patterns or parts of a routine. Floor craft was always a priority and for a long time we didn't know that some social dancers despised this behavior, mainly because we got so many compliments from others on how well we danced. Many told us they loved coming just to see us dance.

But what gets me frustrated is the remark about competitors not looking like they are having a good time. To reach that level where you are doing such high level dancing and to look relaxed and smile is just something that will come with time and lots of practice. To really enjoy competition, that is not the same as fun. I can enjoy competing and get much more satisfaction from a well danced routine, and to be in that moment with the song and my partner is a feeling I just can't explain. When I perform and execute well and feel it, then I have arrived.

However, I wouldn't forsake the fun I get from social dancing. Now that I can lead with much more confidence without even thinking hard makes it a pleasure. I don't loosen my posture but I do use my body to avoid the stiff look. Good posture and technique allows the woman I am dancing with to get a clear message of what I am trying to communicate. It also makes it clearer for me to know where her weight and momentum are headed. It is all part of the "fun" to make sure the woman I am dancing with is having a good time and if she is advanced, I want her to be able to show off her ability, after all, she has worked really hard to get to that level, if she can't enjoy it, why bother.

And when I show up at a strange club, bar or studio for social dancing, social dancers do compete. After I dance with a regular at that club out on the floor and they see her having a great time, dancing well and doing some flashy stuff, I see the demeanor change on many of the other guys there. I see them reaching into their bag of tricks and sure enough they lose their smile when they dance. It is like I am invading their territory and they have to do something about it. To be able to do well on a comp floor and have a great time on a social floor took a lot of time to develop different attitudes. But it was also important to bring the lightness of a social dance into my competition and to bring solid technique into social dancing.

I like the comparison of the rock climber, that is it exactly for a competitor. The focus and intensity of competing is totally different, but let's not forget that the highest level dancers still make a routine look like it is lead and followed as well as look spontanious and fun. I wouldn't doubt that some of the pros and advanced amateurs are actually having fun out there and not just forcing a smile.

[dTas]

my dance partner and i have private floor time for practice and choreography. when we're on a social floor dancing we purposly stay away from our professional routines and just dance; no routines, no fancy steps, just lead and follow and going with the flow.

although we still look like professionals but you can tell by watching that we're not doing a routine and everything is "impulsive".

[alemana]

Salsarettas (sp?)

salseros/as

[Chris Stratton]

my dance partner and i have private floor time for practice and choreography

Well lucky you. The other 99.9% of us consider it good when we don't have to share a floor with those doing things fundamentally incompatible with our practice agendas. Which means that most opportunities for compatible sharing will need to be taken, at least by someone.

[dTas]

many of the studios around here offer practice times and floor times for competitors or anyone else.

[saludas]

although we still look like professionals but you can tell by watching that we're not doing a routine and everything is "impulsive".

That, to me, is the very definition of 'advanced dancer'.

[Chris Stratton]

many of the studios around here offer practice times and floor times for competitors or anyone else.

Yes, but these first of all aren't any more private than socials and sometimes are *less* practical for some types of practice than socials. For example, if the floor is divided by a partition during pratice time, forget about runthroughs. If it has lots of lessons going on, same deal. If it's a mix of standard and latin at the same time, also a problem. That doesn't mean every social is ideal practice time, but those that have large floors, good music, and either a skilled or sparse attendance can sometimes be the best opportunities in a given city.

[Chris Stratton]

That, to me, is the very definition of 'advanced dancer'.

I'd turn it around, and say that you are advanced when your improvisation fits together as well as if it was a routine. If it looks impulsive, you aren't putting things in full relation to each other and are showing awkward transitions.

[saludas]

I'd turn it around, and say that you are advanced when your improvisation fits together as well as if it was a routine. If it looks impulsive, you aren't putting things in full relation to each other and are showing awkward transitions.

Correct. I just assumed that when he said impulsive that he really meant that the actions were lead and followed.

[Chris Stratton]

Correct. I just assumed that when he said impulsive that he really meant that the actions were lead and followed.

But how would the watchers then know it wasn't a routine?

If you stop and reprise sections over and over, sure, they'll figure out it is. But if you just execute a full and well composed dance from start to finish, they shouldn't be able to tell, unless there is a deficiency, right?

[saludas]

But how would the watchers then know it wasn't a routine?

If you stop and reprise sections over and over, sure, they'll figure out it is. But if you just execute a full and well composed dance from start to finish, they shouldn't be able to tell, unless there is a deficiency, right?

.... and that is what makes them advanced dancers....

[dTas]

its not a routine because like saludas said... its lead and follow. the steps are basic (with flair). there's communication between the two of us, my energy and her energy working with each other and interpreting the music. just like WCS dancers do but in foxtrot, waltz, or tango.

people have seen our routines, we include lifts, large floor movements, apart sequences and other actions that are reserved for shows and presentations. i think we all agree that these elements have no place on a floor where others are dancing that do not know what you are going to do (or are not competing against you).

plus, though after the fact, some people come up and as if that was a routine. of course we say no.

[saludas]

people have seen our routines, we include lifts, large floor movements, apart sequences and other actions that are reserved for shows and presentations. i think we all agree that these elements have no place on a floor where others are dancing that do not know what you are going to do (or are not competing against you).



I don't agree. if you are dancing why are certain movements 'good' and certain movements 'bad'? Who really cares if you do 'apart movements'? I certainly wouldn't compormise my dancing for that...

[lynn]

i think it's simply b/c some moves (ie, lifts) are dangerous on a crowded floor where bumping into one another is quite common....

[dTas]

I don't agree. if you are dancing why are certain movements 'good' and certain movements 'bad'? Who really cares if you do 'apart movements'? I certainly wouldn't compormise my dancing for that...

apart moves as in totally apart, not just open. apart moves do not belong on a social dance floor.

actually let me clarify that (for those who are sticklers)... apart syncronized show moves do not belong on a social dance floor. there are some moves where you are apart from your partner but are still "dancing with" them. mostly in swing but also waltz and fox (and others)

[Another Elizabeth]

But how would the watchers then know it wasn't a routine?

If you stop and reprise sections over and over, sure, they'll figure out it is. But if you just execute a full and well composed dance from start to finish, they shouldn't be able to tell, unless there is a deficiency, right?
Is anyone else here old enough to have seen Bill Davies in competition? I remember watching him at La Classique and being amazed at his floorcraft. It looked like they were dancing a perfectly polished routine that "just happened" to always occupy the least crowded spot on the floor. I've never had a lesson with him, but I've always wondered what he thinks of those couples that go barrelling around the floor, inextricably wedded to their routines.

[chica latina]

apart moves as in totally apart, not just open. apart moves do not belong on a social dance floor.

actually let me clarify that (for those who are sticklers)... apart syncronized show moves do not belong on a social dance floor. there are some moves where you are apart from your partner but are still "dancing with" them. mostly in swing but also waltz and fox (and others)
I understand why not to do lifts in a crowded floor, but what's wrong with apart (open) work?

[Chris Stratton]

I've never had a lesson with him, but I've always wondered what he thinks of those couples that go barrelling around the floor, inextricably wedded to their routines.

This is, however, what the majority of judges teach their students to do.

[dTas]

This is, however, what the majority of judges teach their students to do.

do you not see something wrong with that?

[chica latina]

You could do lead & follow in an apart position, practice the connection between the two of you (not physical), taking into consideration your surroundings.

[Chris Stratton]

do you not see something wrong with that?

Yes, but succeding as a non-conformist is usually only possible when you are far ahead of your competitions' skill level. Versatility does not get recognized today, if it means you do things that look less ideally presented than those who stick to their plan.

(The automatic removal of nested quotes is a real bug in the new forum software!)

[dTas]

I understand why not to do lifts in a crowded floor, but what's wrong with apart (open) work?

apart (open) work on a social floor? how is apart open work social?

if you're going to practice your routine then find a private or practice floor. doing routines on a social floor is "unpredictable" the person doing the routine can not predict what the social dancer is going to do and the social dancer does not know where the routine couple is going to do (but they're going to do it!)

apart open work usually blocks the flow of dancing. and is meant for shows or comps. its very arrogant to expect others to just "go around". its like stopping on a freeway to wax and polish your car.

[Chris Stratton]

apart open work usually blocks the flow of dancing. and is meant for shows or comps. its very arrogant to expect others to just "go around". its like stopping on a freeway to wax and polish your car.

If this were really a standard, we'd have to kick most social dancers off the floor for all dances, instead of the defacto don't dance unless you can move with the traffic policy that applies to the Vw.

[dTas]

You could do lead & follow in an apart position, practice the connection between the two of you (not physical), taking into consideration your surroundings.

i did give an exception... i know that there are moves in dances where you are apart and still dancing with each other. i'm not talkinga about those "apart but connected" moves.

i'm talking about the truely apart and syncronized moves where you're not even looking at your partner and doing a show step/routine.

great for crowd pleasing but very arrogant and discourteous to other dancers on the floor.

[dTas]

If this were really a standard, we'd have to kick most social dancers off the floor for all dances, instead of the defacto don't dance unless you can move with the traffic policy that applies to the Vw.

why would you have to kick "most social dancers" off the floor?

[chica latina]

Sometimes I do practice my open routines in the social party at my local studio, but we do stop and pause as necessary so that we don't bump into beginners. We do have syncronized moves, but if someone is on my way, we will change slightly my direction or wait another measure until they move out. This can happen in the competition floor as well, and I don't think anyone would like to collapse with other because their routines are supposed to go that direction,etc...
I guess, that what you are trying to say is "Be considerate with beginners that don't know how to manuever with other people in the floor."

[Chris Stratton]

why would you have to kick "most social dancers" off the floor?

If blocking traffic the way showy competition bits does is not permissable, we'd have to kick off eveyrone who blocks traffic...

I agree blocking things is not desirable - just pointing out that there are a lot of different offenders.

[tanya_the_dancer]

why would you have to kick "most social dancers" off the floor?

Perhaps because they have a tendency to stop and start over when they get lost.

[dTas]

ok... i guess we have to define what a dance party is.

i thought it was a chance for dancers to get out and practice their "social-ness". that being non-competitive dancing (to be more specific).

competitive dancing is what practice times are for.

[Chris Stratton]

oh, you mean party dancing

[dTas]

so how many different kinds of dance "get-togethers" are there?

[tanya_the_dancer]

I always viewed dance parties as an opportunity to dance and try to practice whatever technique improvement I am working on now.

[dTas]

I always viewed dance parties as an opportunity to dance and try to practice whatever technique improvement I am working on now.

technique improvement in what realm?

improving technique in your personal dancing? or in your competitive routine? with? or without your competitive partner?

[Chris Stratton]

well, there's the kind where people dance with their partner, the kind where people dance with other people's partners, and the kind where people sit around and gripe about their partner while non dancers take over the floor...

[tanya_the_dancer]

technique improvement in what realm?

improving technique in your personal dancing? or in your competitive routine? with? or without your competitive partner?

Improving in my personal dancing (now it is mostly for competition purposes), without my competitive partner, since I do pro-am.

[Indiana_Jay]

ok... i guess we have to define what a dance party is.

i thought it was a chance for dancers to get out and practice their "social-ness". that being non-competitive dancing (to be more specific).

competitive dancing is what practice times are for.
The studio that my lovely wife and I use holds a weekly event that variously gets called a "practice dance," "party," "dance," etc.

No food or drink (except for the water fountain), just a dance floor, some recorded music, a bunch of students and a few instructors trying to make sure everyone gets a chance to dance.

Some students who attend are beginners like us (we've been taking lessons since July and we have no intention of competing). Others have been going to that studio for many years.

Some students who attend compete. Others, like us, do not.

It's fun to watch the advanced dancers. I've never seen any of them, however, do anything that appeared to be part of a competition routine during this event.

As for my lovely wife and I, the main reason we go is that we have no other opportunity to use what we're learning in lessons and classes. So, for us, its a combination of "practice" and recreation.

Just one student's perspective.

-IJ

[saludas]

why would you have to kick "most social dancers" off the floor?

Because of things like the opening moves in American bronze tango and vw, which stop flow; shines in slasa; opening moves in Am foxtrot....

[dTas]

The studio that my lovely wife and I use holds a weekly event that variously gets called a "practice dance," "party," "dance," etc.

No food or drink (except for the water fountain), just a dance floor, some recorded music, a bunch of students and a few instructors trying to make sure everyone gets a chance to dance.

Some students who attend are beginners like us (we've been taking lessons since July and we have no intention of competing). Others have been going to that studio for many years.

Some students who attend compete. Others, like us, do not.

It's fun to watch the advanced dancers. I've never seen any of them, however, do anything that appeared to be part of a competition routine during this event.

As for my lovely wife and I, the main reason we go is that we have no other opportunity to use what we're learning in lessons and classes. So, for us, its a combination of "practice" and recreation.

Just one student's perspective.

-IJ

and i tend to agree with you definition. you are there to practice your social dancing.

Party = a social gathering.

[tacad]

I'm very lost in the definitions. :? :wink: There's one dance I like where floorcraft is a complete mess. No competitor would ever think of practicing a routine. :wink: I can't even do a forward left turn in waltz without having to dodge, shrink, duck, or suddenly change directions.

[Chris Stratton]

Party = a social gathering.

Curious, would a party attended by married couples who spent a lot of time sitting around and talking with each other, but only danced with their own spouse not qualify as a social event?

[dTas]

Curious, would a party attended by married couples who spent a lot of time sitting around and talking with each other, but only danced with their own spouse not qualify as a social event?

how would it not qualify as a social event? just because they're not dancing with other people and only dancing with their SO doesn't mean that its not a social event.

[Chris Stratton]

Okay, what about a party attended by a lot of competitors who behave this way, talking with their friends but dancing (or arguing, as the case may be) mostly with their own partner?

[Indiana_Jay]

how would it not qualify as a social event? just because they're not dancing with other people and only dancing with their SO doesn't mean that its not a social event.
By the way, as my LW and I have gained confidence, we longer limit our dances to dancing together... although probably more than half of our dances are together, because they are my only chance to dance with her!

Tonight, she's out of town at a professional conference, so I'm going without her. There are always more follows than leads, so I expect to dance each dance with a different follow. Should be interesting.

IJ

[Medira]

Oooh, have fun IJ! Be sure to let us know how it goes! :)

[lynn]

Tonight, she's out of town at a professional conference, so I'm going without her. There are always more follows than leads, so I expect to dance each dance with a different follow. Should be interesting.IJ
:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[Indiana_Jay]

Oooh, have fun IJ! Be sure to let us know how it goes! :)

Thanks, M. To avoid futher hijacking of this thread, perhaps I'll post the follow-up in the "How was your dance weekend" thread.

-IJ

[dTas]

Okay, what about a party attended by a lot of competitors who behave this way, talking with their friends but dancing (or arguing, as the case may be) mostly with their own partner?

are they dancing thier competative routines? or are they dancing "socially"?

like i said in another thread... a bunch of instructors would go out and dance and have a party dancing with each other.

this was all social dancing, no routines. no formal practicing.

now... i have also been to real PRACTICE parties where couples would come together and analyze each others routines. make critiques and suggestions. someone would bring fruit or veggies (munchies) and we'd have a great time.

[Chris Stratton]

are they dancing thier competative routines? or are they dancing "socially"?

How come it didn't matter to you what the married couples were dancing, but it does matter what the competitors are dancing?

[redhead]

are they dancing thier competative routines? or are they dancing "socially"?


if they are good how will you tell?

[Chris Stratton]

It sounds like in dTas's world the gap is large enough that it would be easy to tell; but for less flamboyant competitive styles and (promiscuous) social dancing skilled enough to be fairly fluent, it's harder to tell.

[Dancefever]

(promiscuous) social dancing .

Hmm...m?

I am having trouble reading the intent of this term, but I might use it later.

If you practice, at all, you are "working" on your dancing. It maybe fun work or enjoyable, but it does not have the "dancing should always be fun" associated with it. If you work on a move and music is not playing or music that is not what you are dancing to, you have just crossed the line in my book.

Therefore anyone who practices has just raised the seriousness of his/her dancing. Even if it is for social, for an exhibition or competitive, I don't really see a difference. If you never took a lesson, no one ever stepped you through a move or you only danced in time to music, then you might be able to say dancing should always be "fun". Otherwise, it is just the difference in the level of commitment.

They way I see it, there is still commitment, there is still work and there are goals. If anyone has ever had a goal of writing a perfect letter to a friend or lover, another the perfect essay, and another the perfect novel. Then there is the works of William Shakespere, certainly a level of commitment and talent on his behalf. If he were alive today would he be found in his PJ's in front of a TV on his cell phone not saying anything? I just can't imagine what the world would be like if his writing was considered overkill or if a broadway show of dancers would never happen because someone said dancing should always be fun. If you have ever worked to make something better, you just put more into it. If you practice your social dancing, you are doing it to make your social dancing more enjoyable, but that takes a level of skill just as competing takes a level of skill. Achieving a higher level, especially by amateurs who want to push the limits of their ability just to see what they can do should not be scoffed at, but perhaps it should be commended.

Maybe there are many that think like d'tas, it doesn't make him right or wrong, just agreed with.

[jon]

It sounds like in dTas's world the gap is large enough that it would be easy to tell; but for less flamboyant competitive styles and (promiscuous) social dancing skilled enough to be fairly fluent, it's harder to tell.

Yay for promiscuity!

[tacad]

:doh:

[dTas]

How come it didn't matter to you what the married couples were dancing, but it does matter what the competitors are dancing?

i assumed that the married couples were dancing, non-routine as well.

in the context of the last few posts, to me, there are two different kinds of dancing (there are lots more but this is only for this current situation). routine and non-routine. i'm not talking about steps, or figures, i'm talking about full fledged routines (or parts of routines).

when watching people practicing routines on a social floor i often see the couple bowl over social dancers or snarl at them for getting in their way or ruining a "perfect run".

you can practice your social dancing on a social floor and your routines at "practice time" when the floor is open for all people to practice their routines.

[wyllo]

I don't see why you can't also dance your routines at a social dance IF you use good floorcraft.

It sounds like your real concern is dancers who show no regard for others on the floor -- you don't need a routine for that to happen.

[saludas]

when watching people practicing routines on a social floor i often see the couple bowl over social dancers or snarl at them for getting in their way or ruining a "perfect run".


This is anecdotal.

All you really see doing this are BAD and inconsiderate dancers. The good ones you would never see doing any of this. That;s what makes them good - they DON'T do these things.

It's like when you are on the road - a guy in a Chevy cuts you off, and then another one. Does this mean all Chevy drivers are bad? Nope - you just fell in with a few of them, but it colored your perception of what was happening around you.

See - you only are seeing a part of the dancing world. plus, you rarely see better competitive dancers at a social - they get crazed hearing merengues and the like.

Real practice, of course, is not about dancing at a social. But, dancing at a social is certainly good practice.

[Katarzyna]

only are seeing a part of the dancing world. plus, you rarely see better competitive dancers at a social - they get crazed hearing merengues and the like.

Real practice, of course, is not about dancing at a social. But, dancing at a social is certainly good practice.None of the top competitors go to socials or practice there...

[Chris Stratton]

in the context of the last few posts, to me, there are two different kinds of dancing (there are lots more but this is only for this current situation). routine and non-routine. i'm not talking about steps, or figures, i'm talking about full fledged routines (or parts of routines).

To which I would say that there is a huge gap in the middle of your experience of dancing. You've seen two boundary examples, but haven't experienced situations where they meet and merge in the middle.

when watching people practicing routines on a social floor i often see the couple bowl over social dancers or snarl at them for getting in their way or ruining a "perfect run".

But this isn't limited to a routine, it happens anytime you have to deviate from the character of a dance (ignore the music, etc) to avoid someone else.

i assumed that the married couples were dancing, non-routine as well.

Oh, but they tend to be the worst "offenders" ;-)

[dTas]

i was trying to narrow what i was talking about to two different kinds of dancing. i know that there are several more and middle ground dancers...but for the sake of the argument i was trying to narrow it down to talking about two kinds of dances. does that make sense?

so what is your definition of social dancing? social dances?

[Joe]

do you not see something wrong with that?
Floorcraft can't be taught.

[Merrylegs]

Floorcraft can't be taught.

Of course it can.

Learning how to stop and restart a routine is the exact definition of what floorcraft is.

Redirecting your figure due to an obstacle is also floorcraft.

Dropping your arms down from dance hold when you dance too close to another couple is also floorcraft. (How many of you have seen someone get banged in the head from this? Remember Donna Shingler's debut as a pro? She ended up with a concussion from another leader's elbow to the head.)

Tightening the hold on your partner (so she'll know to stop progressing backward) when you've lead her into the path of another dancer is also floorcraft.

Even as a follower, squeezing your leader's left hand when you can see a collision about to happen (when the leader is travelling backward) is floorcraft.

Apologizing to your partner, another dancer, or another couple is also floorcraft.

It's all about good manners.

[redhead]

Floorcraft can't be taught.
are you born with it or what?!

[FTL]

It can't be taught like a choreography but it can be improvised. Social dancing helps us a lot in our floorcraft.

[elenapankey2004]

This type of dance is a very special one. Everybody needs to know the techniques, which is obvious for elegant dancing. But every couple has their own Tango. It depends on the personality of a leader - creator of the dance, on his vocabulary and understanding of the music. When a man - leader creates a Tango Argentino, he puts there his patterns and his style.
By my oppinion, Tango Argentine cannot be in a fear competition: because every couple is unique!
Elena

[saludas]

This type of dance is a very special one. Everybody needs to know the techniques, which is obvious for elegant dancing. But every couple has their own Tango. It depends on the personality of a leader - creator of the dance, on his vocabulary and understanding of the music. When a man - leader creates a Tango Argentino, he puts there his patterns and his style.
By my oppinion, Tango Argentine cannot be in a fear competition: because every couple is unique!
Elena

er, tell me how this relates to the topic here....

[Joe]

It can't be taught like a choreography but it can be improvised. Social dancing helps us a lot in our floorcraft.
Correct. Good floorcraft is all about experience.