Wise words about Lindy Hop

[d nice]

This has been "lifted" from Yehoodi, but I thought it was interesting and important enough to repost here. The poster "mouth" is Nicole Frydman, a nationally recognized lindy hop dancer, instructor, competitor, judge, promoter, and also a jazz vocalist.

Post subject: What the heck happened to BASICS??? You all suck.

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It's apparently that time again. I've had so many dances lately where I'm screaming in my head JUST SWING ME OUT ONCE PLEASE GOD PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And so here is the thread. I've posted it before and either you forgot or it's a new crop of leaders or you're all smoking some new form of crack and the pipe never made it my way.

Whatever the case, I'm sick of it.

DANCE BASICS!

See, here's the thing, various forms of partner dancing are cool. So is solo dancing. I like all kinds of dancing. Anyone who knows me knows that.

But if I'm out LINDY HOPPING I would like at least SOME of the night to contain LINDY HOPPING.
And basics are what makes it LINDY HOPPING and not just general swing or general partner dancing or solo dancing while holding hands.

Examples of what I mean by DANCE BASICS:
swingouts
tuck turns
charleston (any version will do - side by side, tandem, front to front, whatever)
closed basics
underarm turns
lindy circles
send outs
j hooks
boogies and jazz steps
more swingouts
more swingouts
and of course, more swingouts


Examples of what is NOT DANCING BASICS:
Extended right side passes (anything over 8 counts is pretty much way too long)
Weird jerky stops where you look at me with a "do something cool" face (ouch on the jerky thing and screw you on the do something cool thing - YOU do something cool)
Swaying or rubbing in closed position (if I wanted to sway back and forth I would go to an 8th grade dance. the major exception here is if you're Sonia - I will sway with her anytime but that's really more of a special private moment and the rest of you ARE NOT SONIA)
Standing in open position doing wiggly things with your body or footwork
(**footwork is something you do WHILE DANCING not instead of it and general wiggling is just dumb)


I'm sorry if everyone's gonna hate me now but it's just the way I feel. Please god start doing basics again. Not just with me but in general.

And if you're reading this thinking "just basics? how boring!" then you're not doing them right. Good basics will send a follower into the tenth level of heavenly enjoyment. If a swingout is good it's all I ever want to do. Trust me boys. Go get a good swingout and girls will melt and line up to dance with you.


This concludes Mouth Rant #6,187. Thank you and have a nice day.

[d nice]

Ok, to anyone who might have been offended by my initial post:

Hi, I'm the mouth. My job on this board is to post things in a really mean and obnoxious way so people can have discussions about things they're thinking but are afraid to say. You can agree with me or disagree with me (which is kinda the point of a discussion board) but please don't think the tone with which I write is anywhere near serious. Sure I'm a bitch in person too but to answer the all important question from the Wizard of Oz - "are you a good bitch or a bad bitch?" - I'm a good bitch. Really I am.

So get over how mean my first post was, or hate me if you want, but focus on the discussion at hand because that's really the point.

:D

[Vince A]

Interesting, very interesting.

I've heard similar ranting form very experienced WCS dancers. Many times.

I posed this question back a few months ago, asking followers if they liked more basics or ???

What's your take on this article d nice?

[d nice]

I agree with it 100%.

[Vince A]

. . . and thanks to these kinds of articles and some words that you have given, my WCS dancing has evolved into what I want it to be - from a pattern dancer to a WCS dancer!

[SDsalsaguy]

I think this is applicable – in theory if not specifics – to any dance!

What makes any dance the dance it is are its fundamentals…do those well and you capture the feel and spirit of the dance in a way that nothing else ever can.

[HepcatBob]

I agree with it 100%.

Me, too. I saw it on Yehoodi when she first posted it. More people should think like that.

[Sagitta]

I agree with you all. Unfortunately this is only something that the advanced dancer realizes and is willing to work on. It's been my experience that when people start learning to dance the majority want to learn moves. The basics often get brushed away in the interest of satisfying the demands of the students. It is only when I have taken styling classes that I have learnt how to do the basics well.

[SwinginBoo]

YES YES YES!!! I completely agree. Nothing is more fun than dancing with someone who can really, really lead a swingout. It's this magical force that is the closest thing to human flight. :D

[pygmalion]

I know this isn't swing, but I think it's pertinent. I was recently watching one of my ballroom comp videos where Bob Powers and Julia Gorchakova, the American Rhythm champions, lost a dance (bolero, I think). Bob was shocked! He thought that was their best dance. But you know the commentators' assessment of why they lost? They didn't use enough basics in their choreography. Hmm.

[swingin' baby]

the words have been well and truly ripped out of my mouth! Basics, Basics, BASICS please boys!

[MNswing]

definitely

[Dancegal]

The swingout and Lindy circle IS what made me "fall in love" with Lindy. Nothing like someone who can smoothly lead a swingout - a real treat especially if the music is fast AND the swingout is lead smoothly. Those left/right side passes "mouth" is referring to are WCS basics, not Lindy. My opinion: keep the dances distinct.

Regarding the stop and "do something cool" thing, I seem to experience this more with WCS dancers - and I seem to not have enough "moves" to come up with something (note to self: resume WCS lessons or get a private lesson to work on this).

It was cool to do some Lindy basics in front of beginning 6-count swing dancers and have them go - how do you do that! That's the beauty of the dance!

[Vince A]

Way back in early November, I replied to the article that d nice posted. I agreed, but with caution.

Since that time, I've begun to incorporate more basics into my WCS.

The result . . . well let me tell you, I sure as heck can start knocking the followers as well as the article knocked the leaders . . .

Now I get the look like . . ."Is that all you can do?" . . . "Hey, I've taken hundreds of lessons to learn how to follow you, and you're not doing anything?" . . . "OK, big boy, give it to me - I can follow anyone!"

Or, now the followers stay at the end of a 6-count - and do swivels, or wiggle, or tap until the next 40 counts go by- then decide to anchor in place to let me know that they are ready for counts &1. And, if I do "hit a break" (stop and go move as mentioned in the article), the follows now take my leads away, or plays forever, and/or turns around and wiggles their cute little butts, and then look at you like, "What? What did I do?" As if you didn't know.

This "stick to the basics" thing goes both ways . . . let's not put all the blame on the leader.

[d nice]

Absolutely, Mouth's post was coming from the subtle point that followers should be doing the same thing.

What I've found is the followers who insist on the big complicated patterns, the ones who hijack the lead, are the same ones who are in desperate need of a *******er in the basics...

The dance is a lead follow dance, it is a 50/50 proposition. If we each are juggling three balls, and can only juggle three balls, as soon as the follow reaches for one of mine one of hers drops. Leave my balls alone! ;)

When it comes to followers playing or leaders stepping beyond the basic moves it is the equivelant of two jugglers passing balls back and forth. we are still each only juggling three balls each, but between us there is six balls in motion. We are sharing the work, waiting to ensure our partner is ready and only when we see they are ready to recieve the new ball do we pass it. They watch us, ready and waiting for our indication to pass it back.

[Vince A]

d nice perspective to put this into . . .

[alfborge]

So, are you saying that right/left side passes shouldn't be done in Lindy at all?

[d nice]

No side passes are fine... extended side passes belong to west coast swing. Lindy hop is about movement and momentum... extending a side pass beyond eight counts breaks the the elastic dynamic that should be present in all lindy hop moves.

[jdavidb]

Or, now the followers stay at the end of a 6-count - and do swivels, or wiggle, or tap until the next 40 counts go by- then decide to anchor in place to let me know that they are ready for counts &1.

So we are supposed to leave her to do swivels until she anchor steps? The follower decides when swivels are over?

side passes are fine... extended side passes belong to west coast swing.

I'd like to see what an extended side pass is. It sounds like something I wouldn't even do if I was into wcs.

[d nice]

Vince is talking about West Coast Swing. If you are doing Lindy Hop or East Coast you don't have to wait because the follower should be with you in the music, executing the moves you lead within the time frame you give her, or with minor embellishment, but still respecting the framework you gave her. The dynamic of those dances is different than West Coast Swing... so the partner interaction has different rules.

Extended passes in WCS are a lot of fun. Different "rules" different expectations, different ways of interacting with the music.

[Bob]

I am new to the whole swing thing, and I am thrilled with this thread!

The reason I am thrilled is that I love to dance with my girlfriend, but am pretty shy about dancing with someone who can really dance well (we both started dancing together, a few months ago).

The thought of dragging an experienced dancer through the 10 basic moves that I know seems a lot like asking Dr. J to play a game of horse in the backyard.

(and I wouldn't call myself a strong lead yet, but I can be sure that I won't grab any place that shouldn't be grabbed or step on anything that shouldn't be stepped on. :shock: )

[SDsalsaguy]

Welcome to the Forums Bob! :D

[Bob]

Thanks!

[Swing Kitten]

Yes, Welcome. It's nice to have you with us. There's quite a bit of information here... enjoy! :D


... but don't let it intimidate you-- this dance is all about fun!

[SDsalsaguy]

-- this dance is all about fun!
Just the way it shopuld be! :banana:

[Sagitta]

-- this dance is all about fun!
Just the way it shopuld be! :banana:

I'll third that!! :)

Welcome to df Bob! :D

[etchuck]

Also adding onto this thread...

As a primarily social dancer and leader, I admit that in my salsa I do go into subconscious club mode and dance a lot of things. So one of my follower-friends who is a staunch lindy/ECS dancer has a very difficult time following me, and so when she gets lost she tells me "basics, basics!" as she'll subconsiously revert back to swing basics someimtes. I will switch back and pick her back up on what she knows.

But the person who teaches us WCS around here (Debbie Ramsey) says to everyone, she'd rather dance WCS (or any other dances) if they do basic steps with excellent technique than fun patterns with weak technique. Regardless, I'll still take additional workshops in patterns as I try to gain confidence in learning to lead those patterns, but proper technique is more important on the social floor than flash. Now, if you're doing a show or competing, that's a different story (apparently).

Yes, to be back on-topic, I'm trying to perfect my basic lindy circle, swingout, underarm right-side pass, sugarpush, and tuck turn. My main issue is to get used to 8-count timing in fighting the ECS subconscious clock I've always had thanks to ballroom. My advice then to the frustrated followers out there: ASK BEGINNER LEADERS TO DANCE! Seriously, help me out. Talk to me afterwards. I know that some of the dance markets out there are follower-heavy, so that's all the more reason to ask us to dance (screw etiquette and the expectations of followers being totally passive when asking for dances). Constantly and without hesitation tell us afterwards to keep working on our basics and our technique; don't rush learning patterns that you're not comfortable with. Maybe some men or other leaders aren't big into getting critiqued, but help get it into our heads these concepts before our egos expand to the point where we won't listen anymore (not that many of us listen anyway :) ).

[swinginstyle]

I must say Debbie Ramsey is an great person, instructor, and judge. I first met her in LA. Her son, dressed as Spiderman, was running all over the place. I was shot "dead" by him. Anyway, she has also given me excellent feedback on my dancing, including "calm it down"

[etchuck]

Well having spent the summer learning how to dance with your ankles tied to shoulder-width, she definitely has helped me with taking smaller steps in most of my dances as needed. On occasion I still need that tie back around my ankles again.

Yes, there are pictures on the website below about that.

[Swing Kitten]

... proper technique is more important on the social floor than flash.

:D yup!

My advice then to the frustrated followers out there: ASK BEGINNER LEADERS TO DANCE!

a good chunck of the followers I know do this... but I don't see how that would directly help the "frustrated ones" ... unless you're thinking of this as an 'investment'


Seriously, help me out. Talk to me afterwards. I know that some of the dance markets out there are follower-heavy, so that's all the more reason to ask us to dance (screw etiquette and the expectations of followers being totally passive when asking for dances). Constantly and without hesitation tell us afterwards to keep working on our basics and our technique...

:lol: I've never thought of lindy follows as being passive creatures!

When I dance with a newbie I still make sure to enjoy myself. At the end of the dance I'll likely mention an aspect of his leading that I liked or I felt was in the right direction... but I will NOT critique and start to try to teach without specifically being asked... and then, only if I think I would actually be helpfull. I will not do it... it's rude! If he has questions or would like a tip or two or just some suggestions let him ask! ;)

[etchuck]

... proper technique is more important on the social floor than flash.

:D yup!

My advice then to the frustrated followers out there: ASK BEGINNER LEADERS TO DANCE!

a good chunck of the followers I know do this... but I don't see how that would directly help the "frustrated ones" ... unless you're thinking of this as an 'investment'


Well, I would look on it as an investment. Not to stereotype too much, but women... think of it as a chance to mold a man to the leader you want him to be. :) ;)

Even those of us (okay, me) that want to improve his leading technique get frustrated on occasion. But if you want to show beginners, "if you do keep this connection steady here, I can do THIS"... you will actually let us figure out what to do to make you enjoy the dance, and that will make us enjoy dancing with you more.

:lol: I've never thought of lindy follows as being passive creatures!

When I dance with a newbie I still make sure to enjoy myself. At the end of the dance I'll likely mention an aspect of his leading that I liked or I felt was in the right direction... but I will NOT critique and start to try to teach without specifically being asked... and then, only if I think I would actually be helpful. I will not do it... it's rude! If he has questions or would like a tip or two or just some suggestions let him ask! ;)

I think simple encouragement works fine. I agree, don't critique unless specifically asked, and I'm at the point where nowadays, I'll ask followers, "How did that feel?" to at least figure out what I was doing that could have confused issues or not.

Now, there exist a few annoying leaders here who dance with newbie followers who insist of teaching them unsolicited. I would consider that just as rude as the converse, but they insist on monopolizing on the fresh-faced under-25 women who are too new to the dance scene. Wonder why women haven't done the same with me... :cry: