Correcting guys?

[bouncybouncyweee]

Hallo Ballroomers!
I'm a relativley new dancer, (about a year) who can't always keep the rythm in a dance with my feet, but can always hear it in my head. My question is, to what degree should I let a guy lead me? I mean, if he starts off on the wrong beat, I usually correct him 'cause it's jarring to me to start wrong. But he continually goes on the wrong beat, should I continue correcting, or just go with the flow and let him lead me however wrong it may be? I have this problem especially in cha-cha 'cause I've heard that some people are taught to break on one, not two, but usually my ears hear the cha cha very clearly on the 4-&-1.

So, not just in this, but in all dances, should I even correct him on the frist beat, and assuming I do, should I do it at all afterwards? I'm not experienced enough to know how to manipulate a guy into the "right" beat with out being explicit, I have enough trouble following still! :doh:

Lily

[pygmalion]

Tough one, bouncybouncyweee.

Correcting guys. Isn't that right up there with turning off the TV in the last two minutes of the football game? Not done. :lol:

Just kidding. Here's what comes into play here, by my way of thinking. Nobody likes being corrected, especially by another (newbie) student. Direct criticism is one good way to get a total lack of cooperation. But if you can hear the rhythm, it's pure torture to dance with someone who can't. So what do I recommend? Subterfuge! :lol: :D

Before I give the sneaky details, let me say this. As the follow, it's your job to follow. Even if the lead is totally clueless, you follow. Ultimately, I think that wil help you develop into a better dancer. Also, when it comes to cha cha, there is a large number of people out there who do break on the one. (There's even a whole thread about this!) So if you take your cha cha show on the road, to a club, or even a ballroom venue with newer dancers, you will be breaking on the one. Wrong or right, that's what you'll be doing.

Now, back to the subterfuge. If what you're experiencing is in a dance class, pull the teacher aside, express your concerns, and let the teacher address the particular issues in class. That way, you're not the one criticising, the teacher is, and it's the teacher's job, after all. If you're in a social dance situation, you have to decide how important it is to you and weigh how well you know your partner. If it's not monumentally important, use this as a chance to practice your following technique. If it's really important AND you know the person fairly well, GENTLY SUGGEST changes. How about this "Hmm. That's interesting. I noticed that, for cha cha, you like to break on the one and I like to break on the two." Then talk about it. Chances are, you'll have to explain what "break" means! :lol:

But one of the most irksome things for many of us is to be dancing with someone who keeps correcting us. Not fun. So if you decide to go that route, do it only sparingly.

[Vince A]

On beat, off beat, or upbeat . . . the only time you women let us be in charge, is on the dance floor. So let us do it!!!

J/K . . .

Excerpt for ya' -
As a follower, when I dance with an inexperienced partner who gets off beat, I first try to keep my own footwork correct to help him feel the rhythm. Often, I end of acting like a sort of dancing metronome which can really help a beginner who is *aware* that he has a tendency to get off beat. However some men have no clue about keeping the beat or knowing on which foot to turn the follower, and you can tell that "helpful backleading" would be useless. Whenever I dance with this kind of partner, I simply do my best to protect myself from physical injury -- with these men, you have to literally run during most of their maneuvers to keep from either falling or getting your shoulder thrown out of whack.

[SwinginBoo]

Very briefly...in that situation socially I try to grin and bear it, that is unless he asks for some help. Like Jenn said...I hate to be corrected on the dancefloor by someone I'm not close with.

[bouncybouncyweee]

I have to agree: following no matter what will make me learn to follow, which trust me, I have trouble with :cry:. I s'pose this applies to ALL dance as well.
*this is the part where I just complain and whine*

It's just so hard when the other person is honestly on NO beat. They start out right, and speed, and slow down. (Not that I don't do that as well...) And I try not to correct them verbally. Usually, I balk and try to get my self on beat, and they feel it, but I feel that if I do that too much they git irritated, and the balking tends to mess up the continuity of the dance. So, then, it's a compromise between dancing and just going with whatever the guy is doing. And then, I have a fear I'll stop listening to the music, tune it out almost evey time I dance to just let the guy go, and I'm wondering which is worse-losing the music or the guy?

[pygmalion]

Vince's excerpt is good one, though. There are some guys out there who are aware they have a problem, and who want or ask for help. For those guys, if they let you, count. But if they haven't asked for help, be careful how you offer it.

[SwinginBoo]

Well it's all bad. Oh god, I cringe at the thought of those dances....and I've had quite a few. It's especially frustrating if the beat seems so natural to you that you can't understand how someone else doesn't hear it. I don't know if there is any right or wrong answer. I suppose you do what you think is best for the dance at the time. If the guy is easygoing and you are trying to correct the beat, then it's fine. It just all depends. :?

[Vince A]

If you ever get to the point of competing in Jack and Jills (who you draw is who you dance with in competition), this will be good practice for you. Even those that compete can get off beat and off time!

There are many things that you can do . . . just remember to protect yourself!

[pygmalion]

Yeah. I can relate to the desire to whine. I have a couple dozen really funny bad leader stories I could tell. But for the sake of space, I won't. I know some women who, if they just can't stand dancing with a particular guy, will turn him down. Every time he asks for a dance. I don't agree with this either, but some people seem to be very happy using "just say no" as a strategy. Your call.

[Vince A]

One last excerpt:

In summary, there are THREE LAWS for Followers:
Never hold on
Never let go
Don't think, do it.

The leader has to think about floorcraft, choreography and musical interpretation [as well as the beat]. On the contrary, the follower must learn not to think about those things independently, but rather to follow. Suspending the impulse to worry about where you are going and what you are doing and how the timing ought to be is the first great challenge in learning to follow.

[peachexploration]

For those guys, if they let you, count...
For what it's worth, I use this tactic in all my dance classes, Salsa or otherwise. If I find my partner is off beat, I count in a small voice and as if I'm speaking to myself. 8) I know this is sneaking but it will make my partner unconsciously aware, we're both back on track and egos aren't bruised. Well, unless they know this tactic. :wink: :)

[Sagitta]

I often ask for help when I am having difficulty. I have no problem with that. As for receiving unasked help it depends how it is given. I'll be the first to say I am new to all this dancing (months - not even a year), and to make it even more difficult I start out by trying everything :) ... So, I probably need lots of help. I have had followers do what eachexploration suggests. I've also had followers try to correct the beat -- I definitely can feel it if we are not in synch -- and then I just ask them to count it out so that it is easier for both of us...

[Vin]

On one of the rare occasions I found myself off beat:), my follow started tapping me on the back to the rhythm. I appreciated the subtlety and it helped us dance better.

[pygmalion]

Ah yes! Finally some guys with a little humility! :D That makes life so much easier for follows, you know. Yup, peachexploration, that under-the-breath counting really works. :D

[Danish Guy]

Some times the 1 can be difficult to hear.

In the beginning I had some girls who started counting for me, even on the social dance floor. :oops:

I guess I was asking, cause I was looking like an undertaker due to concentration, and only doing basics. Anyway, I tend to welcome any help I can get, and knew the girls in advance from class. Once synchronised, and in the beat, I could start on my few moves. :)

Now, if I can’t get the girls into the beat, I mark the 1 with a little extra gesture. Then I count the on, or worst case, stops and start over again, often with a little comment that we didn’t agree to where we was in the music. :?

I have also been dancing with lady’s who insists on dancing on 1½, 2, 3 or 3½, because it felt better, and that’s what they learned somewhere in the world. This refusing to adapt, and myself not being able to, gives a nightmare of dance. :evil: You can’t lead anything, if you aren’t synchronised with your dance partner. :cry:

[Adwiz]

Even those that compete can get off beat and off time!

So true. An adjudicator told me about one Silver-level competition (didn't see it myself) where *every* couple was off beat. That would be strange, but obviously possible. Nerves I guess.

If I'm off beat I appreciate my partner giving me a subtle verbal count so I can correct. When I hear her counting it out and it's different from the count in my head, I pay attention! It's saved me a few times!

But whatever you do, ladies, don't try to take the lead to correct the problem. Two wrongs don't make a right! :wink:

[pygmalion]

Interesting article here on "teaching on the dance floor" Applies to leads and follows. Take a look. :D

http://www.eijkhout.net/lead_follow/do_not_teach.html

[Sagitta]

Definitely interesting. I just have to scramble along to keep up with you and I am guaranteed a great ride Jenn! :)

There is a time and place for learning and it is not in the middle of a social dance floor during a social dance, even if it is requested! Refrain from doing it. Consider it as being rude. Very rude.

compared to


Here are some rules of the dance floor:

Don't teach someone on the dance floor unless they ASK you to do so.. (Un-asked for advice is not only bad manners - it is unacceptable behavior.) :doh:


There's a contradiction here. I disagree with the first if it does not disrupt the dance floor. I agree with the second quote and other rules of the dance floor.

[pygmalion]

Yup, Sagitta. A lot of these articles do seem to state opinions as if they're fact. Which is why I like to use them to start conversations. There's always controversy to be found with a little googling! :lol:

I disagree with point #1 as well. As long as you're not being disruptive, and the person receiving instruction/help wants it, what harm is there in a little social dance floor coaching?

[pygmalion]

I know some people who can't STOP teaching. I don't know why they do it but it is annoying to many followers (Or what about the followers who can't stop back-leading or offering suggestions?) Remember that there are many people out there who are not obsessed about dance. They just like to spend a few hours every now and then moving to music, having fun. They don't care about correct steps or proper technique or line of dance or whatever. You must first consider who you are dancing with, what their abilities and preferences are.


I've had a teacher like this, as well. Couldn't stop teaching. Actually, that became a big point of conflict, because in social settings, I like to just have fun and forget about the dance lessons. But he felt that, if you're dancing with a teacher, you should always be open to coaching. :? Eventually, I decided to go along with the teacher -- but just not view dancing with him as a social activity. Ever. When I wanted to have fun, I went out dancing with other people -- girl friends or guy friends, or other teachers. Just not him. What do others think?

[Sagitta]

It's clear that your poor dance teacher could not differentiate between Pygmallian the social dancer and Pygmallian the student. It's a bit like seeing your doctor at a dinner and pestering him/her with health related issues. Your doctor probably does not want to carry his/her work into his/her social life.

You must first consider who you are dancing with, what their abilities and preferences are.


Another beautiful quote. I didn't dance jump swing yesterday night, at the ballrom dance I went to, though the desire to do so was driving me crazy!! No followers were up to that! In the same respect there were great followers who went along with the few Waltz/tango/foxtrot basics I knew while I knew that they could have easily backlead me to do more. Some great lead/follow etiquette and as it should be.

[pygmalion]

It's clear that your poor dance teacher could not differentiate between Pygmallian the social dancer and Pygmallian the student. It's a bit like seeing your doctor at a dinner and pestering him/her with health related issues. Your doctor probably does not want to carry his/her work into his/her social life.
Eh. His loss, really, Sagitta. The social dancing pygmalion can be a lot of fun. And having fun is so important a part of dance for me, that I always manage to have some. :D

[pygmalion]

Here's an interesting perspective. This article talks abuot the etiquette of how to ask for dance instruction on the floor. Hmm. Never thought about it that way, before. :?

http://www.ee.princeton.edu/~aria/etiquette.html#Soliciting

[danceguy]

Hi,

I think everyone needs to be very careful when giving advice...especially if it is with someone you don't know. I've been dancing with more ladies who are complete beginners, and I always remind myself to smile at them and be very understanding and supportive, even if they keep stepping on my toes. :P

In one of my classes, the teacher paired us up and then had us do a lead and follow exercise. After a few minutes each person had to tell the other three things they did well, and then three things that could use some improvement. I learned a lot from that exercise...and I really appreciated my partner being honest.

At times, I actually enjoy receiving a little feedback, and more importantly if its from someone who is experienced and knows what they are talking about. Its all about the approach...are you smiling, being respectful of their feelings and giving advice that will boost their confidence even if they know they messed something up? It is so easy to hurt someone's feelings by pointing out a mistake and being rude about it. :oops:

In a recent post I mentioned a bit about a class where two assistants were critiquing the heck out of me. They weren't very friendly about it and I finally told one of them to stop doing it and she suddenly gave me a "whoops" look and then was rather apologetic the rest of the evening. Especially for teaching assistants...if you are trying to keep people in your studio, don't scare them away by being a troll! :shock:

A little kindness really goes a long way! For instance, last night I got to do an ECS with one of the best dancers at one of my regular Friday night dance spots. I am always intimidated dancing with her since she is really really good...I tried a few fancier moves and pulled them off, and I was surprised at the kudos she gave me! It really made me feel good to hear just a few words of praise from her...this is what keeps me going back to dance and not giving my new hobby up. :)

Best,

SG

[Vince A]

scorpianguy,
I really agree with what you say . . .

We're only dancing, not teaching, and the only time we should teach someone is if they ask for it or they are in a class and it's being taught.

We should thank the one we just danced with for that dance, and leave them on a a positive note. We were all beginners at one time, and some of us have been dancing for a long time and don't have it yet. Have we forgotten what struggles we had in the beginning???

Just my 2(ents . . .

[redhead]

Different issue: my teacher always corrects my friend on the dance floor, and even though he does it in a non-offensive way, she's fed up with it. He never corrects me, bit I wish he did. How should we deal with that? :?:

[salsachinita]

A little kindness really goes a long way! For instance, last night I got to do an ECS with one of the best dancers at one of my regular Friday night dance spots. I am always intimidated dancing with her since she is really really good...I tried a few fancier moves and pulled them off, and I was surprised at the kudos she gave me! It really made me feel good to hear just a few words of praise from her...this is what keeps me going back to dance and not giving my new hobby up. :)


I agree with you there, Scorpionguy. A few praising words go a long way; they almost work like a spell that actually lead to real improvements!

I have recently been the lucky receiver from one of the most respected teachers (a Cuban native). I asked him to 'place' me in the right level (having danced in clubs for years but away from the studio/class environment for nearly as many years).

After having danced a couple of songs with me, he exclaimed: "What do you need classes for?" :shock: he went on to explain a few things I need to watch when dancing, and said that I am able to "keep all my partners happy" :wink: which, in his mind, is the whole point of salsa (from a female perspective)...!

That night I went out to my usual spot and brunt the floor :bouncy: . It was like my soul was on a real HIGH :D

(OK, what he did wasn't good for business... but we won't go into that...)

On the other hand, I have also been sharing the gift of praising to many newbies. I have recognised the same joy on the guys' faces, & some of them have blossomed into beautiful leaders. :D

This is the whole point isn't it? The more good leaders we have, the less we girls have to fight over them on the dance floor.......! :P

[salsachinita]

Different issue: my teacher always corrects my friend on the dance floor, and even though he does it in a non-offensive way, she's fed up with it. He never corrects me, bit I wish he did. How should we deal with that? :?:

I am assuming that both of you already had a discussion (together?) with your teacher? :?

[salsachinita]

Hallo Ballroomers!
I'm a relativley new dancer, (about a year) who can't always keep the rythm in a dance with my feet, but can always hear it in my head. My question is, to what degree should I let a guy lead me? I mean, if he starts off on the wrong beat, I usually correct him 'cause it's jarring to me to start wrong. But he continually goes on the wrong beat, should I continue correcting, or just go with the flow and let him lead me however wrong it may be? I have this problem especially in cha-cha 'cause I've heard that some people are taught to break on one, not two, but usually my ears hear the cha cha very clearly on the 4-&-1.

So, not just in this, but in all dances, should I even correct him on the frist beat, and assuming I do, should I do it at all afterwards? I'm not experienced enough to know how to manipulate a guy into the "right" beat with out being explicit, I have enough trouble following still! :doh:

Lily

Have you checked out Edie ('the salsa freak')'s website? if I remeber it correctly the issue was addressed in "The Off-Beater's Support Group"
www.dancefreak.com

[SDsalsaguy]

Different issue: my teacher always corrects my friend on the dance floor, and even though he does it in a non-offensive way, she's fed up with it. He never corrects me, bit I wish he did. How should we deal with that? :?:
Hiya redhead...two different issues but I think they can both be handled along relatively similar lines. For yourself all you need to do is let him know that you'd appreciate any pointers he has to offer. Chances are that once he knows you're open to such feedback he'll provide it.* Your friend needs to go the opposite rout by letting him know that, as much as she's appreciated the feedback, she's going through a phase where she just wants to "let go" and enjoy dancing without thinking about the technical stuff. In either case the onus is not put on him... so chances have it that he'll be receptive. Good luck to you both… and please keep us posted.

* I am not an instructor so this is different, but I know that I hold off on commenting unless I know that someone will be receptive to it. If they're just there to enjoy themselves then that's their choice and who am I, after all, to say anything? If, however, someone tells me that they'd like feedback that's when I'll provide it... if anything comes to mind.

[pygmalion]

Your friend needs to go the opposite rout by letting him know that, as much as she's appreciated the feedback, she's going through a phase where she just wants to "let go" and enjoy dancing without thinking about the technical stuff. In either case the onus is not put on him... so chances have it that he'll be receptive.

Hmm. Not sure how to say this without sounding negative. But that's not the experience I had, with the teacher I mentioned earlier in this thread who couldn't stop teaching. His intentions were the very best -- to give his students all the knowledge possible, whenever possible. But the impact was very off-putting for several students, not just me. It made people uncomfortable and nervous on the dance floor, even in a "social" setting. Being constantly scrutinized and evaluated isn't comfortable.


That said, I agree with SD. It's worth having a talk with your teacher. He may not realize what he's doing, or he may have good motivations that you don't understand. For example, what if he's quietly coaching you for a potential spot in a performance team? Or what if he thinks you're ready to move up to the next competitive level? Or something similar? His standards for you may be high for good reasons. I'm sure, with a little talking, the two of you can work it out. Good luck. check back in and let us know how it goes. :D

Jenn

[SDsalsaguy]

Point well taken Jenn... there are definitely some people out there who need to have their say no matter what, appropriateness and interest be damned. Still, it didn't sound like either one of them had really talked to this guy yet... if he chooses to hang himself with what slack they give him, well, then that's of his own doing...

[pygmalion]

Yes, SD.

It's definitely worth a heart to heart with their teacher. I would recommend talking with him separately, btw. That way, he won't feel ganged up on, for one. Plus, there may be two separate issues, as you said, SD. So they need to be handled separately.

[pygmalion]

Oh yeah, and one more thing I just thought of. (Sorry about all the posts -- you really have me thinking here! :lol: )

A big part of being a good teacher is to read students' motivations and try to tailor instruction to each student. It's possible that, with the very best of intentions, your teacher is trying to meet what he sees as your motivational needs. All the more reason to talk with the guy -- to help him understand what you need from him.

[SDsalsaguy]

Definately seperately! I'd just sort of assumed that... good call to make that explicit Jenn! :D

[pygmalion]

I just know how I am. Those kinds of confrontations can be difficult for me, so I'd be tempted to do it with a buddy. Probably not the best approach, in this case. But I'd be tempted. :oops: :lol:

[ballroomboilergirl]

I am fortunate (or unfortunate) enough to have a partner that has a hard time staying on beat and he knows it. We dance competitively, and the "if there's one only thing you do, do this" tip that our coach always gives us is STAY ON BEAT. Being off-time in competition is the kiss of death, so she always tells the girls to not be afraid to "help the guys out" if they're off. My partner seems to have a hard time simply starting out on the right beat and often asks for help, so I have made a habit to (softly!) count the first few measures aloud to get him on beat, and then if he still starts on the wrong beat, I apply enough pressure through my hand to let him know he's off and he usually either starts again (on the right beat) or makes some sort of small step to get back on time. If your partner seems to get offbeat sometime in the middle of the song, I have found that the lady can very subltly correct it by taking a bit longer or shorter amount of time on an underarm turn...this happened once in competition during the American style waltz when my partner got off-beat and was visibly frustrated because he couldn't get back on it...so I simply waited until he led an underarm turn and I took about a 1/2 beat longer than usual to complete it...as a result, we got back on time and finished dancing without any more troubles. Again, this isn't ideal, but at least you will be back on time. For competitive dancing, I've been taught that it is absolutely essential to stay on beat, so if your partner is off, correct him whether he asks for it or not, but do so politely. If this becomes a source of enmity between the two of you, consider finding another partner. After all, it takes two to tango, and if he isn't pulling his weight by learning to count properly, he obviously isn't into it as much as you are and you deserve someone who is as enthusiastic about dancing as you are :) I should caution you, however, that all of what I just said really only applies to timing...other than that, wherever the man leads YOU MUST FOLLOW. Even if you are like me and have been backed into the least visible corner of the dance floor when your partner decides to do crossover break or your partner has done a natural turn that has set you on a collision course with one of the judges (both true stories) you just have to make the best of it...remember, you can always go and scream in the ladies' room afterward :D

[SDsalsaguy]

I can definitely relate BBG, I used to have a lot of trouble with timing when I started dancing. It was most problematic for starting a dance since once I was on beat and going I could stay on beat at least fairly well. I knew this, however, so worked out various little tricks with different partners. One thing we did fairly often was to have my partner squeeze my hand (lightly!) 1 beat ahead of where I needed to settle my hip to drive into the first step of our routine. Such tricks let her lead me in the timing while still letting me lead the actual dancing actions...

On something of a tangent, I think much of this depends on situation and setting... competitive dancing is built on the timing – well, I guess all dancing is for that matter – but this strikes me as a scenario where corrections are called for. Social settings are a beast of a different nature and I think the "how" matters as much as the "what." As mentioned above, I did not start out with a good sense of timing (actually, I'm not sure if I started out with *any* sense of timing :? :() and I was all too well aware f this deficiency. How a social dance partner dealt with this made all the difference in the world! There's a universe of difference between "would you like a little help with that count?" said with a radiant smile and an exasperated "you're doing that wrong!"

[redhead]

Keeping you posted...
I've talked to my teacher about that a couple of month ago, and he still does the same thing, so I didn't want to put pressure on him in social situation :roll: I thought he just doesn't correct followers in clubs; but now that my friend talked to me about that... I feel frustrated! It got me thinking - one thing is that I'm a little more advanced then her and learn quick, but I'm so far from being good, so does my teacher really think I can't advance? I'm really trying... :oops:

[Sagitta]

You tried, but as your instructor has not changed it would seem that he is not interested in tips/advice/instruction on the dance floor with you. Perhaps Redhead your dance instructor really just enjoys social dancing with you, and that's all he wants to do. If so that definitely says something about your dancing, so you could just enjoy it and leave it at that. :)

[msc]

Wow. Hearing and representing the beat is only the merest tip of the incredibly large iceberg known as timing. That's a tough situation, boiler girl.