123-567, or 234-678 The Great Debate of on2

[shdni]

This article is a snippet which I found from somewhere,I think it will be powerful enough to provoke a riot between Power 2 and ET 2,lol.Or maybe u guys already read it b4.

Ever dance with someone who claims they r dancing on "2" while you know you r dancing on "2".yet it feels like you r on different beats?

Chances are one of you is dancing 123-567, the ballroom version known as New York on2 and the other is doing 234-678 -- which we call Power 2. And guess what? You r both on 2.

Dancing on "2" means Breaking or changing direction, on the second beat of the music. These counts FOR THE BASIC STEP are both ways of breaking on two: the 123 method teaches you to step-break-step; the 234 teaches you to break-step-step.

Is dancing on "2" the only right way to dance to salsa/mambo music? No! Dancers have all different arguments about clave, upbeats, downbeats, the conga, the cowbell, the dinner bell, and so on. RazzMTazz believes in dancing on whatever number feels right, whether it's one, two, or seventeen.

Dancing "on 2" is technically, however, the only way to dance mambo (or salsa, which is simply the name for the form of mambo we dance today). The dance called "mambo" was created on "2," and is meant to be danced on "2." By breaking on 2, we accentuate the beats that correspond with the clave. That's what mambo was designed to do.

Dancing "on 1" isn't wrong -- there are some phenomenal one dancers (and teams) out there! But what they're dancing isn't mambo. It's not salsa either, though many people call it that. It's another dance, with another name:

If you're dancing the traditional mambo pattern, but breaking on one, you're dancing guaracha. Guaracha is a traditional dance that's danced 123-567; it starts on one and breaks on one.

YOU WANT TO DANCE MAMBO, OR SALSA? YA GOTTA DANCE -- THAT IS, BREAK -- ON "2." OK! That said, you have two basic styles of footwork to choose from.

So which style of dancing on "2" is right? Both! But there are major differences:

234, OR POWER 2

RazzMTazz teaches and dances on Power 2, the original New York salsa style that emerged in the Palladium era. The Mambo Aces pioneered it, and legends like Freddie Rios and George Vascones followed suit. They all swore by the power it gave their movement.

Why do we like Power 2? Because starting on the forward and back breaks allows you to PUSH OFF. It gives you MOVEMENT and MOMENTUM, allowing you to TRAVEL. We break on the balls of our feet, pushing off without bringing our heels down -- this gives us the SPEED and POWER we need to perform our DYNAMIC TURN PATTERNS. And the extra speed allows more time to add STYLE -- a shake, a hip roll, a snap-out, a hook-flick...all the flair that sets us apart from the crowd.

Any other advantages? Power 2 allows us to start on "two." Why is that important? Well, because the action of starting and breaking on "2" accentuates that beat of the music that much more. When you start on "1" to break on "2," the "1" step becomes accented and takes power away from the "2" step. But it's the "2" step, the break, that should be the most expressive.

123 -- BALLROOM 2, or NEW YORK 2?Many schools in New York are teaching the 123 method, which is the ballroom style developed by commercial dance schools.

Why do they teach Ballroom 2 instead of the Power 2? Well, quite simply, because it is easier to do.

And why is it easier? Because people have an easier time stepping on 2 than waiting for the 2.Most people can find 2,the first beat in the music, but haven't developed the ear to find 2,So stepping one-two is like a handy cheat for breaking on "2."

So what's wrong with Ballroom 2? Okay, let's get something straight: dance is dance, and none of it is wrong!

The 123 style -- which is mambo using guaracha counts -- is a perfectly acceptable and popular style of social dancing. BUT BY STARTING ON ONE, IT DEFEATS THE TRUE PURPOSE OF DANCING ON "2" -- the strong punctuation of the "2" that the music calls for.

The main reason RazzMTazz doesn't teach 123 is that it creates a weakness in dancers: It restricts movement and results in flat-footed dancing. Why? Because instead of pushing off on the forward and back breaks, you r rocking onto your whole foot. And that slows you down.

Students who learn on the 123 ballroom count may have trouble keeping up with Power 2 dancers; but people who learn on the RazzMTazz Power 2 can dance with anyone!

Power 2 allows far more style, and, yes, power.

Why limit your dancing? One of the most famous master instructors in New York teaches students on the 123 count. But he and his performers dance on the Power 2. At RazzMTazz we train our students on the same count that our performers use -- because that's the level we teach them to achieve. We want to bring out the perfomer in everyone.

[Angelo]

Interesting. I have been taught both The "Power2/234" style and the "Ballroom/New York2/123" style. The one I learned and have seen taught at almost every ballroom dance school I've been to is the "Power2" style. Is this just a fluke or does the author of that article have their facts incorrect?

[itorres]

Dancing "on 2" is technically, however, the only way to dance mambo (or salsa, which is simply the name for the form of mambo we dance today). The dance called "mambo" was created on "2," and is meant to be danced on "2." By breaking on 2, we accentuate the beats that correspond with the clave. That's what mambo was designed to do. Yes, sir. The dancing on the 2 comes from the "Son", Mambo and Salsa predecessor from Cuba.

Dancing "on 1" isn't wrong -- there are some phenomenal one dancers (and teams) out there! But what they're dancing isn't mambo. It's not salsa either, though many people call it that. It's another dance, with another name:
If you're dancing the traditional mambo pattern, but breaking on one, you're dancing guaracha. Guaracha is a traditional dance that's danced 123-567; it starts on one and breaks on one. The Guaracha is related to the Son and is more lively and satyrical in its themes and lyrics. However, this is the first time I've heard the Guaracha was danced strictly using this pattern. I'll keep an eye out for more info on this.
YOU WANT TO DANCE MAMBO, OR SALSA? YA GOTTA DANCE -- THAT IS, BREAK -- ON "2." OK! OK! :)
Any other advantages? Power 2 allows us to start on "two." Why is that important? Well, because the action of starting and breaking on "2" accentuates that beat of the music that much more. When you start on "1" to break on "2," the "1" step becomes accented and takes power away from the "2" step. But it's the "2" step, the break, that should be the most expressive. Other advantages I find is 1. that since you don't step on the 1, you get to accentuate that beat with hips, head or whatever at the appropriate time in the song. eg. cymbal hits, stops, end of song. and 2. Many of the shines associated with this style purposely go off momentarily into a 1-2-3,5-6-7 timing and then back to 2-3-4. This provides additional possibilities of accentuating passages and providing a visually pleasing "change of pace" (Pace in terms of speed is the same, but it seems like something different to the spectator.)
123 -- BALLROOM 2, or NEW YORK 2?Many schools in New York are teaching the 123 method, which is the ballroom style developed by commercial dance schools.I find the aouthor's use of "Ballroom 2" is misleading since from what I gather most people associate that term with Mambo taught at a Ballroom studio from a given syllabus and competition oriented.
There's NY On 2 / Eddie Torres Style vs. Power 2 /Palladium 2 / "En Clave" / "A Contratiempo".
If you just say "On 2" it will be understood differently by people according to what they're used to or which On 2 they were taught. For people like Angelo above, Puerto Ricans and foreign countries (perhaps any not in NY?) it I'll mean Power 2.
Why do they teach Ballroom 2 instead of the Power 2? Well, quite simply, because it is easier to do.

And why is it easier? Because people have an easier time stepping on 1 than waiting for the 2.Most people can find 1,the first beat in the music, but haven't developed the ear to find 2,So stepping one-two is like a handy cheat for breaking on "2."
There was a mistake in the original post in this paragraph referencing the "2 and the 2" instead of the "1 and the 2". I took the liberty to change it here. I agree, not everyone can count, find 1 or let alone the 2.

I read somewhere (wish I remembered) that Eddie Torres had changed to the 1-2-3 timing to make it easier for students to learn it and keep the breaking On 2. However, I read an interview with him and he mentioned he was not aware how gradually he started changing from the original Mambo / Power 2 he was doing to the 1-2-3. In the beginning he didn't know what he was doing because he learned the music and the counting after he had already been dancing for years.

I don't know the story behind the change but I hope to find out. Wonder what his reation would be if I went up to him a our next Congress "Excuse me, Mr. Torres...:oops: I'd like to know..." :D He'll probably be game. From what I've seen and experienced of him he seems like a great guy.

[itorres]

Interesting. I have been taught both The "Power2/234" style and the "Ballroom/New York2/123" style. The one I learned and have seen taught at almost every ballroom dance school I've been to is the "Power2" style. Is this just a fluke or does the author of that article have their facts incorrect?
I made a comment about that. I do agree that most people think of Ballroom Mambo as the syllabus governed style taught 2-3-4. He's referring to ET 2.
FYI- You may have gathered already, but the article is form the RazzMTazz website (Power 2).

[MacMoto]

I made a comment about that. I do agree that most people think of Ballroom Mambo as the syllabus governed style taught 2-3-4. He's referring to ET 2.
FYI- You may have gathered already, but the article is form the RazzMTazz website (Power 2).

Yup, the original article is here:
http://www.razzmtazz.com/power2.html

The first thing that struck me when I first read it was how the author avoids using the term people are most familiar with -- ET (Eddie Torres) 2 -- and calls this timing "ballroom 2". This doesn't really help the reader at all since people usually think of the palladium style mambo on 2 (on which Power 2 is based). I suspected that this is mainly to do with street cred -- considering most salsa dancers see "ballroom salsa" almost as a derogatory term, it's no wonder that Power 2 people (RazzMTazz) want to disassociate themselves from the "ballroom 2" tag and insist that ET2 is more ballroom than Power 2...

Jami Josephson, who is ballroom trained, calls ET2 "modern 2" and Palladium/Power 2 "classic 2", by the way.

I can't comment on the "which is better" debate since I've never seen or danced Power 2. In Europe, when salsa dancers say "on2", it's taken for granted that they mean ET2. How popular is Power 2 in the US?

[Lockstep]

With power 2, does the man start backwards or forwards? asking since on2 NY starts backward, while LA on1 starts forward...no experience with power 2

[itorres]

With power 2, does the man start backwards or forwards? asking since on2 NY starts backward, while LA on1 starts forward...no experience with power 2 It's a matter of preference for P2. Some teach it one way, some the other. Only ET 2 is standardized because Eddie decided to make that the rule. Now, I believe maybe around 60% (?) advanced P2 teachers and competitors I've observed start man back On 2: RazzMTazz, our top PR instructors and people in competitions.

I personally prefer Man starting forward on 2. That sets up mostly man turning on 2-3-4 and lady on 6-7-8. I find this makes it easier for me to time dips or other stuff on breaks on the 1 right after I spin the lady. Also, for freestyle steps it allows the man to shine "first" on the 2-3-4 and the lady answering on the 6-7-8 which can make it a sort of call and response between leader and follower. I don't know if anyone else pays attention to these details or has any opinions on the subject. *shrug*

[shdni]

I just wanna know how Milton Cobo start,back first or forward first?Anyone ever noticed that?
Personally speaking,I like Power 2,so I hope Milton do power 2 and step forward first,lol.

[MacMoto]

I just wanna know how Milton Cobo start,back first or forward first?Anyone ever noticed that?
Personally speaking,I like Power 2,so I hope Milton do power 2 and step forward first,lol.
I seem to recall James Cobo danced ET on2 so assume Milton does the same...

[shdni]

I seem to recall James Cobo danced ET on2 so assume Milton does the same...

Well,really bad news.
Here is another interview snippet which impressed me.

CYBER-INTERVIEW:

Eddie Q
-by Patricia McGowan

Introduction

Eddie Q (Edward Quiros) was born in Manhattan first generation Puerto Rican. He began studying music with the piano at the age of 10 years old and later, at the age of 12, Eddie switched to the guitar and has evolved into an accomplished jazz guitarist. Eddie formed and was director of his musical group, Progression, with the fusion of elements of be-bop, funk, Latin jazz and R & B. Some of the musicians that played along side Eddie Q in Progression were the likes of such greats as, Arturo O’Farril on piano, son of the late, great composer, Chico O’Farril, and also on piano, Igor Atalita (who has played and recorded with all the major bands in the New York Metropolitan area).

Eddie Q started dancing in ’95 at Sandra Cameron Dance Center . Even though sudio (SCDC) failed to supply adequate instructors and support for Mambo, Eddie was an avid believer that true progress for the dance would come through consistency in practice. Two years later, Eddie was invited to teach Mambo at SCDC. Eddie brought incredible energy and insight of the dance and the music to his six year tenure at SCDC. During his tenure he taught beginner, intermediate and advanced salsa breaking on the one, beginner, intermediate and advanced mambo breaking on the two and beginner, intermediate and advanced club cha-cha. Eddie has also taught a salsa program at Forest Park Center , in Glendale , Queens ; a salsa program at the Student Center at SUNY Downstate, Brooklyn and numerous salsa workshops (all levels) at the SCDC.

Even though a knowledge of music does not guarantee the ability to produce a great dancer, Eddie Q does attribute his musical background as being a major force in his ability to capture the rhythmic understanding of this dance.

Cyber-Interview: Eddie Q


PM: What is your preference in dancing? On the one or on the two?

Eddie Q: Personally, I prefer the Palladium 2. Which is 2, 3 4, 6, 7, 8. I can dance and teach all the other styles, but I feel this particular style the most. If you watch Eddie Torres, who has made the 1, 2, 3 5, 6, 7 style of on two famous, you will notice that he, when social dancing, will revert back to the Palladium 2, naturally.

[ElSereno]

Yes, sir. The dancing on the 2 comes from the "Son", Mambo and Salsa predecessor from Cuba.

So how come _all_ the Cuban salsa teachers we get here in the UK, dance and teach on 1?

[Sagitta]

So how come _all_ the Cuban salsa teachers we get here in the UK, dance and teach on 1?
How about on3?

[ElSereno]

How about on3?

no :-)

and when I say Cuban dance teachers, I mean the ones from Cuba, not just the ones who teach Cuban salsa

[TemptressToo]

Everyone I know at local salsa clubs dances on one. I've learned on-two in ballroom classes and have to say, I prefer on one. It feels more natural to me. Not that I'm an expert. :D

[dnquark]

I want to make sure I understand the diff. between NY on 2 (follow's timing, so that the forward break's on 2) and P2, starting fwd on the 2. My impression is that in NY2 you step on the 1, hold on the 4, while on P2 you hold 1, step on 4. Is that right?

[yola]

yep

[itorres]

So how come _all_ the Cuban salsa teachers we get here in the UK, dance and teach on 1? I guess you would have to ask them how they got to dance how they do. It would be interesting to know what they say their influences or teachers were.

It seems you have read too much into what I said. I agreed that Mambo has traditionally been danced on the 2 and also said that the cubans danced the Son (predecessor of Mambo) on the 2 also. That doesn't mean I think that all Cubans dance On 2 _today_.

This Son turning into Mambo and becoming popular as a dance in the US happened back in the 50's. No doubt they danced On 2 (Power 2), this comes from people who lived it. Eddie Torres being one of them, the Palladium legends Freddie Rios and Mike Ramos, Mike Vazquez, Anibal Vazquez (Puerto Rican, Roberto Rohena's uncle with whom he often partnered to dance at shows).

We are talking these "kids" were born in the 40's and 50's.:shock: Todays teachers are much removed from that era, 65 years - two generations or more. A lot of stuff accounts for changes in style. Two generations away from the homeland, changes in style have taken place, no desire to keep up with or knowledge about certain musical traditions, people taught by different instructors, not everyone can recognize the 2 and must dance on 1, they may teach on 1 because it's easier for students, etc.

Music genres, dance styles are constantly changing. With the passing of time a lot of old things blend together, some disappear :( , some acquire new elements from contemporary influences... Its an evolution...

[Alias]

I can't comment on the "which is better" debate since I've never seen or danced Power 2. In Europe, when salsa dancers say "on2", it's taken for granted that they mean ET2. How popular is Power 2 in the US?
How do you base your assertion that in Europe "on2" always mean "ET2"? Have you traveled through Europe or talked about it on local salsa web forums?

For instance in Paris, you've got classes and instructors (who are good dancers) in the three variants of CBL slotted salsa (LA1, P2, ET2) (P2 being called "Palladium"), and "on2" means "to break on 2" that can be "P2" or "ET2".

Your salsa curriculum can go through different teachers from Cuban Casino (and Rueda) to CBL slotted salsa with LA1 then P2 and ET2, which is kind of a logical path (of course there are other courses).
That just gives you more technical tools to play with, no need of a "war" one against the other, by the way the (music and dance) question in Paris would rather be Cuban Casino vs CBL slotted salsa, anyway I find it quite valuable to know both Cuban Casino and CBL slotted salsa dances.

(CBL = Cross-Body-Lead) of course.

[Ms_Sunlight]

Things seem to be more mixed up here in Cardiff, Alias. Lots of people dance Cuban style, lots of other people dance slotted style but throw in Cuban moves. (I'm with the people in the latter camp.) It's almost all on 1.

Me, I don't think it matters. If you're feeling it, you dance it. If you're leading it, I'll follow it. Sometimes if I'm dancing by myself I switch between timings, or even leave the timing behind altogether and just play, if that's what I'm feeling.

It seems to me that you can accentuate any beat no matter what you're stepping on, if that's what you feel.

[Ron Obvious]

But on 2 can also mean the cuban a-contratiempo, right.

Most of our teachers teach and dance on 1, but one does on 3. And they're all cuban, meaning that they come from cuba and teach cuban salsa.

I don't really understand the confusion with mambo. Here that's a different dance.

[Lockstep]

could any1 provide a quick explanation of the on3 stepping? which count to hold, etc? breaking forward/backward? straight or curved stepping? more of a vertical wave motion? (no hijack intended :P)

[itorres]

could any1 provide a quick explanation of the on3 stepping? which count to hold, etc?On 1, Power 2 and On 3 share the same footwork pattern. Step forward L, In place R, Close L, Pause, Step Back R, In place L, Close R, Pause. On 3 just does it on a 3-4-5, 7-8-1 timing. breaking forward/backward? straight or curved stepping? more of a vertical wave motion? (no hijack intended :P) These other matters are not an attribute of an On 3 pattern as such. The On 3 describes the pattern and timing. These other things may vary by region or "style".

A pattern by itself does not constitute a style. For example you can dance On 1 LA Style, Cuban Style, Puertorrican, Columbian... It is a matter of subjective appreciation of what elements identify a Style.