What can an experienced follower do to help?

[pygmalion]

As everybody probably knows by now, I love dancing with newbie leaders. Lots of personal satisfaction there. I feel that many followers like me, who have a little more dance experience, often want to help new leaders. Problem. How do you help? Do you dance the patterns he intended to lead? Do you give constructive feedback? Do you backlead? Hmm. What's a follower to do?

Another interesting link which gives some suggestions. Anyone have others?

http://www.eijkhout.net/lead_follow/help_each_other.html

[Sagitta]

the best way their partners can help is to follow their lead, even if it's wrong, rather than "compensating" for a bad lead.

Right on! As long as it is safe. If the follow does what I want the lead wants him/her to do without me proper leading then the leader could try something even more dangerous.

[Sagitta]

I love dancing with newbie leaders. Lots of personal satisfaction there. I

I wanna dance with you. I wanna dance with you :bouncy:

[youngsta]

Please, do NOT backlead a new leader! That's not going to help him/her one bit. All you can do is follow the lead to the best of your ability. That's the way we can find out what we're doing wrong. :wink:

[SDsalsaguy]

Please, do NOT backlead a new leader! That's not going to help him/her one bit. All you can do is follow the lead to the best of your ability. That's the way we can find out what we're doing wrong. :wink:
Amen!

[bouncybouncyweee]

I dunno... I'm in a salsa class where some of the guys have this strange idea that I'm that much better than they are. When they get to me and make a mistake, they almost seem to expect me to correct it-- ask me questions while they're moving. Or they get really frusterated. I'm not exactly sure what how bakleading works... but I get the feeling when I've gone through the move with them four or five times and they still don't have it, they want to be put in the right place. Is that wrong? This is only a very few guys, and once they get into the right position, they figure it out on their own. Is that back leading?

[Swing Kitten]

back leading is the follower doing what he/she thinks the move should be instead of what is actually lead.

generally not a good thing

[Sarah]

back leading is the follower doing what he/she thinks the move should be instead of what is actually lead.

generally not a good thing

I understood that backleading was where the follower was not only going where she thinks she should be, but pushing her partner to where she thinks he should be too. I'd agree that 99.99% of the time its a really rude thing to do.
But....
I do find that it can be a good teaching tool for a kinesthetic learner if you are supposed to be teaching them (ie. they asked for help or I'm taking the lesson) and if you explain that that is what you are goint to do ahead of time - saying something like `I'm going to put your body where it should be so you can feel how it goes - then you can try leading me a few times yourself.'

Cheers
Sarah

[Sarah]

Do you dance the patterns he intended to lead? Do you give constructive feedback? Do you backlead? Hmm. What's a follower to do?


It all depends!
Sometimes the NL needs encouragement[1] more than technique, so I'll do my damndest to dance what I think he might have meant to lead. When he gets a bit more confidence I can move into my preferred mode of following what was actually led rather than what (I guess) was intended.
I'll give verbal feedback if it is asked for or if NL is doing something uncomfortable or dangerous[2]. I'll take over leading sometimes if NL is showing signs of mental exhaution - some guys like it <shrug> and on rare and exceptional occasions I've even been known to backlead.

Cheers
Sarah

[1] It might be the difference between him coming back again or not.
[2] you'd think that most people would realise which way elbows bend by the time they reach their late teens or so.

[pygmalion]

I see what you mean Sarah. The true newbie guys do need encouragement most of all. On the rare occasion I backlead, I generaly tell the guy what I'm going to do, so effectively, I'm not just leading it, I'm showing him how to lead it. Then I'll relax and see if he leads it again, which he generally does. :D

[Vince A]

I truly hate it if I get a backlead from a follower. Period!

However . . . a hijack is MOST WELCOME . . I like to follow on occasion, and if it doesn't happen everytime I set a pattern or move, it's OK.

Now, if we're just just hanging out, playing and the follow want to initiate something playful or a move, this to is OK. I can follow or take a hint real well. But once she gives me her anchor, she's mine!

[pygmalion]

I agree Vince. I don't think that backleading is a good idea. I think it's better to just dance what the guy knows how to lead. But for those rare moments, I have a script. "Do you want to lead a turn now? Yeah? Okay. Just raise your hand like this, and I'll turn under it. That's how it works ...." and so on. By the end of the song, I'll generally have the guy leading, and a bit more confident too.

And you know what funny thing I learned about me and hijacks? I can't do them with my coach. I'm so used to submissively following whatever he leads, that I just can't bring myself to hijack. :shock: Now with anybody else, it's a different story. :lol:

[Sarah]

However . . . a hijack is MOST WELCOME . . I like to follow on occasion, and if it doesn't happen everytime I set a pattern or move, it's OK.


As I understand it a hijack is a swing thing where the follower takes over leading on the fly. Is that right?
Salsa doesn't really lend itself to that sort of thing so when I do it so I will actually verbally ask if he'd like me to take over the lead for a bit. The look of relief on some guys' faces is downright comical at times. Often it end up that we'll swap several times in a song - I'll lead something a few times then he'll give it a go.

Cheers
Sarah

[Vince A]

However . . . a hijack is MOST WELCOME . . I like to follow on occasion, and if it doesn't happen everytime I set a pattern or move, it's OK.


As I understand it a hijack is a swing thing where the follower takes over leading on the fly. Is that right?
Salsa doesn't really lend itself to that sort of thing so when I do it so I will actually verbally ask if he'd like me to take over the lead for a bit. The look of relief on some guys' faces is downright comical at times. Often it end up that we'll swap several times in a song - I'll lead something a few times then he'll give it a go.

Cheers
Sarah
Thanks Sarah,
I thought you could hijack in any dance . . . which really says I don't Salsa that much, but after watching SDsalsaguy dance a few weeks ago, I'm inspired to learn!

[pygmalion]

You can hijack in salsa. I only know because I learned how at the Jesus Morales workshop a few weeks ago. I'll ponder a bit, then come back and try to describe.

Edit: Okay. Here's the combo we did (peachexploration, correct me if I forgot something) X body lead, gentleman flicks wrist to lead lady to face away from him. While facing away, she hijacks the lead and does whatever she wants -- a little bend and accentuate the bootie, arm stuff, shoulder shimmies, whatever she wants. Then she swivels to face the man when she's ready and times it so she's on the correct foot to do a basic on the one (or two, depending on the style of salsa).

[youngsta]

Hijacking does occur in salsa, but I wouldn't say the follower hijacks the whole lead (at least not in my experience). Usually they hijack a move (hanging in a turn longer than normal, some freestyling while in open hold) but the lead still has control of when this ends.

[Sarah]

Thanks Jenn and Youngsta - I've got a better idea of what you guys mean by hijacking now (actually I have done it on occasion - now I know theres a name for it). So is it the same sort of thing in swing?

Cheers
Sarah

[bouncybouncyweee]

I don't suppose that you could hijack in WCS too?

[SDsalsaguy]

As best I can tell, the hijacking in WCS is the follow actually taking over the lead... While this can happen, theoretically, in any dance, I see very, very little of it, if any, in the regular social salsa scene.

Now this may only be about a difference in terminology use but, to my way of thinking, providing the woman with a styling opportunity is something different from the hijacking that I've understood Vince and others mention. Vince?

[SDsalsaguy]

. . . which really says I don't Salsa that much, but after watching SDsalsaguy dance a few weeks ago, I'm inspired to learn!
Thanks for the compliment Vince...but just like any dance, you already know the keys...do it & enjoy it!

For what it's worth, all the WCS there really inspired me too... I definitely danced the best WCS song of my life last Friday afternoon and took a semi-private lesson earlier today, with one more already on the books for next Monday! :D

[youngsta]

Now this may only be about a difference in terminology use but, to my way of thinking, providing the woman with a styling opportunity is something different from the hijacking that I've understood Vince and others mention. Vince?
I'm not saying the lead provides the styling opportunity, I'm saying for example you lead a woman into a turn and she stops the halo motion of your turn hand, keeps your hand propped up with hers, and then continues to turn REAL slow maybe taking 2 full counts to finish the turn. Once she's done all is back to normal and you start leading again.

[SDsalsaguy]

Now this may only be about a difference in terminology use but, to my way of thinking, providing the woman with a styling opportunity is something different from the hijacking that I've understood Vince and others mention. Vince?
I'm not saying the lead provides the styling opportunity, I'm saying for example you lead a woman into a turn and she stops the halo motion of your turn hand, keeps your hand propped up with hers, and then continues to turn REAL slow maybe taking 2 full counts to finish the turn. Once she's done all is back to normal and you start leading again.
I know what you're talking about youngsta – and yes, this stuff does happen, at times, in salsa – but, as you say, I take this to still be different from the full on hijacking that I understood Vince et al to be talking about, no?

[youngsta]

Ok, I gotcha. Here, we call that a hijack. I've never seen this full on hijack Vince was talking about. I wonder what we would call that here! :lol:

[SDsalsaguy]

I wonder what we would call that here! :lol:
Taking dance hostages? :lol:

[Vince A]

Good morning . . . lengthy discussion on hijacks, eh?

I think what everybody wrote is correct. . .

I've seen hijack in Slasa, but it's mainlt done by experienced couples and couples who regularly dancewith each other, e.g., husband and wife.

A hijack can be anytime that the follower takes the lead away from the leader and controls movement or play, whether it's a simple walk out of a move, stopping his lead and doing their own turn, or taking over for a move or more and giving it back.

It also can provide a follower with a styling opportunity, which most women do in any dance. I've even had it happen to me in 2 Step! And she put me into downline phantom turns that totally showed that I couldn't follow that well in 2 Step.

Most followers do stop a pattern quite often and just hangout , extending the count, and simply "play." If they do it too much, and mess up everything I've planned in my head for that song, I back off and do basics.

SD . . . "Swing privates?" Ah, a new monster being created. Well, let me say, that if you grasp WCS as well as you did Salsa, you willbe a very good WCS dancer!

[peachexploration]

You can hijack in salsa. I only know because I learned how at the Jesus Morales workshop a few weeks ago. I'll ponder a bit, then come back and try to describe.

Edit: Okay. Here's the combo we did (peachexploration, correct me if I forgot something) X body lead, gentleman flicks wrist to lead lady to face away from him. While facing away, she hijacks the lead and does whatever she wants -- a little bend and accentuate the bootie, arm stuff, shoulder shimmies, whatever she wants. Then she swivels to face the man when she's ready and times it so she's on the correct foot to do a basic on the one (or two, depending on the style of salsa).

Hey Jenn, we missed you this week! Yes, you are correct. Particularly when you're doing continuous swivels in Salsa, the follower also hijacks the lead and turns it back over with the correct timing. The good this about this move is that the leader often likes it and particulary if it's playfully flirtatious. :wink:

[pygmalion]

Hey peachexploration. Yuck. World's worst stomach virus. Over now, though, thank goodness.

Question: how does the follow decide whether to hijack or not? Experienced leads only, I'm guessing? Too confusing for newbie leaders to take?

[peachexploration]

Hey peachexploration. Yuck. World's worst stomach virus. Over now, though, thank goodness.

Question: how does the follow decide whether to hijack or not? Experienced leads only, I'm guessing? Too confusing for newbie leaders to take?

Well, I'm still learning this one too but yeah I'm mainly guessing experienced leads only because there are a few moves in Salsa that a potential hijack can take place and experienced leader will know about most them in advance. In last week's class, our instructor gave our newbie leaders some pointers on what to look for in a potential hijack especially when there is a break in music, music tempo changes or there is particular move or combination where it could happen. There are moves like continuous swivels or even when a follower can break into a shine sequence. She used the term "turning the lead over". But again, you'll have to have a little experience to do this and I wouldn't try this on a newbie outside of class unless he was somewhat familiar. It would be difficult to do this out socially at first until you've had a feel for each other's dancing. Our instructor is great at doing this but I noticed that it's only with our more advance dancers/students.

[SDsalsaguy]

SD . . . "Swing privates?" Ah, a new monster being created. Well, let me say, that if you grasp WCS as well as you did Salsa, you willbe a very good WCS dancer!
Semi-privates Vince, only semi-privates! As far as matching it up to my salsa, well... I don't think anything will ever speak to my soul quite the way that salsa does... but I certainly won't mind if you can't tell that as an observer! :D

[Vince A]

I'll let you know the next time I see you WCS . . .

[SDsalsaguy]

:shock:

I *definitely* don't think it'll be up to that level anytime soon... just saying that I'm hoping to eventually get there!

[salsachinita]

Hey guys :D thanks for explaining what 'hijacking' means......! I am sure I have been doing it fr time to time without knowing the term :shock:
So I gathered that if you don't do it too much, you don't fall in the category of backleading, right? Or are they two totally different things..?

Generally, if I am dancing salsa, and one (or both) of us miss/mess up a move, new ones will be filled in so we are still in time with the music (& the on-lookers won't notice :P) I do this quite a bit :roll: ......so is there a name for it....? :wink:

[salsachinita]

I don't think anything will ever speak to my soul quite the way that salsa does... :D

Well said........ I am glad you feel this way.......! :D Me too.....!

[SDsalsaguy]

I don't think anything will ever speak to my soul quite the way that salsa does... :D

Well said........ I am glad you feel this way.......! :D Me too.....!
Well, I'm not SDsalsaguy for nothing you know! :wink: :lol: