What does "ballroom" mean to you!

[cornutt]

Reading the "fragmented dance community" thread on the general discussion forum, I noticed something that I've seen before: the meaning of the word "ballroom" seems to vary from one comment to the next. Some people seem to think of "ballroom" as being specifically smooth/standard; everything else is "Latin" or "swing" or something else. Some of the salsa dancers use "ballroom" to refer to almost any partner dancing that isn't salsa. And then, there are commenters who use "ballroom" to refer to any danced that they don't like. :rolleyes:

None of these fit my definition. At the studio I dance at, we do smooth, rumba, cha-cha, samba, salsa, mambo, bolero, ECS, WCS, two-step, and the occasional barn dance, and it's all ballroom as far as we are concerned. Of the in-town dancers that I know, there are only a handful who limit themselves to one specific dance. Maybe it's because we aren't a big metropolis, but dancing here doesn't seem to have gotten (IHMO) over-specialized like some of the places I read about here on DF.

So what is your definition of "ballroom"?

[chachachacat]

Reading the "fragmented dance community" thread on the general discussion forum, I noticed something that I've seen before: the meaning of the word "ballroom" seems to vary from one comment to the next. Some people seem to think of "ballroom" as being specifically smooth/standard; everything else is "Latin" or "swing" or something else. Some of the salsa dancers use "ballroom" to refer to almost any partner dancing that isn't salsa. And then, there are commenters who use "ballroom" to refer to any danced that they don't like. :rolleyes:

None of these fit my definition. At the studio I dance at, we do smooth, rumba, cha-cha, samba, salsa, mambo, bolero, ECS, WCS, two-step, and the occasional barn dance, and it's all ballroom as far as we are concerned. Of the in-town dancers that I know, there are only a handful who limit themselves to one specific dance. Maybe it's because we aren't a big metropolis, but dancing here doesn't seem to have gotten (IHMO) over-specialized like some of the places I read about here on DF.

So what is your definition of "ballroom"?
Good point, cornutt!
I use ballroom in several ways - in a general way, like you do, but also to mean smooth/standard. I also use it to encompass all partner dancing sometimes, but I suppose that's incorrect. Think how confusing it is to outsiders and newbies.

[Standard Dancer]

I think of "ballroom" as meaning standard, smooth, latin, and rhythm ... I usually specify "standard" or "smooth" when I'm talking about those styles in particular ...

[Larinda McRaven]

I use the word "ballroom" as an umbrella term for "partner dancing".

[RhumbaWaltz]

My definitions (which I'm sure aren't the textbook definitions!!) are Ballroom = Waltz (American and Viennese), Tango, Foxtrot, Quickstep. Latin = cha cha, rumba, salsa, mambo, meringue. Swing = swing (ECS or WCS).

[tanya_the_dancer]

I think of "ballroom" as meaning standard, smooth, latin, and rhythm ... I usually specify "standard" or "smooth" when I'm talking about those styles in particular ...
Same here

[jon]

I use the word "ballroom" as an umbrella term for "partner dancing".

I use "partner dancing" as an umbrella term for dances including "ballroom" :-)

Definitions will never be consistent across different dance communities. So it's useful to detect context of a discussion and refine terminology accordingly.

[Joe]

Often, it's the older generation who refer to Smooth and Standard as "Ballroom." They likewise refer to Rhythm and Latin as "Latin."

[mamboqueen]

It depends who I'm talking to.

If I'm talking to someone in the ballroom world, I'll use ballroom as meaning smooth or standard.

If I'm talking to someone outside the ballroom world, I'll use it to encompass latin/rythym, too.

[Ithink]

I think of "ballroom" as meaning standard, smooth, latin, and rhythm ... I usually specify "standard" or "smooth" when I'm talking about those styles in particular ...

Ditto.

[Spitfire]

I believe the term "ballroom" is often loosely used to describe any partnered dancing that one has to take some time and effort to learn. Many people will think of it this way to differentiate it from the free style dance done in the nightclubs.

[alemana]

It depends who I'm talking to.

If I'm talking to someone in the ballroom world, I'll use ballroom as meaning smooth or standard.

If I'm talking to someone outside the ballroom world, I'll use it to encompass latin/rythym, too.


ditto. i am usually making a differentiation between the two parts of my dancing life - "ballroom" and salsa.

[fascination]

in a word? SWOOSH:cool: :cool: :cool: :cool:

[tacad]

Any of the American style or International dances, with the exceptions of swing and jive for some reason. They can't have those. :wink:

On a side note, there was a guy from Columbia I met at a salsa club who said he knew salsa but was looking forward to experiencing ballroom salsa at the club that night.

[chachachacat]

Any of the American style or International dances, with the exceptions of swing and jive for some reason. They can't have those. :wink:

They? They? I am wounded to the quick! I thought you were...one of us!

:shock:


And, by the way, we have your swing and jive right here, firmly in our syllabi!:p

[tacad]

They? They? I am wounded to the quick! I thought you were...one of us!

:shock:
:lol: I'm one of those guys who learns the rules so I can someday skillfully break the rules.


And, by the way, we have your swing and jive right here, firmly in our syllabi!:p
They were hijacked. :p

[dTas]

i usually use ballroom to encompas "syllabous" dances. w, f, t, vw, qs, cc, m, r, pd, s... but i break out the jive and swing into a category called "swing".

futhermore i generalize all smooth/standard to be smooth dances and all latin/rhythm to be latin dances

swing encompasses all the swing... jive, WCS, ECS, jitterbug, lindy, etc

salsa is usually just salsa but also merengue, bachacata, club cha cha, on1, on2, reuda etc. pretty much anything non-ballroom salsa.

[caityrosey]

What I think of or refer to as "ballroom" usually depends on the the people I am with. If I am among other dancers, I tend to refer to ballroom as all the dances we usually learn to dance competetively (so not the fun dances).
When I am among non-dancie types I tend to avoid being specific about what constitutes ballroom--I refer to pretty much all partner dancing as ballroom.

That second instance comes up especially this time of year when I see family and friends whom I have not seen in months/years. There is no greater conversational cinderblock than to say to the uninitiated , only mildly interested person " I dance standard" or "I am working on my rhythm". Soon you will have to explain what standard is or what rhythm is and what all the other categories are and how they are different from each other. The person you are talking to has tuned you out but continues to nod their head meaningfully. You try to answer their questions, but know that by the next time you see them they will have forgotten everything you have just told them, and it will be all to say again. No, I usually try to stear clear of specifics unless I can tell that the non-dancie type I am talking to is actually interested--conversation usually goes much better this way when you try not to confuse people you only see once a year.

[Porfirio Landeros]

I was running a registration booth for a college ballroom club back in the day, and a guy came up to ask me questions before joining...

"Is your club modern ballroom or classical ballroom," and I said, "Uh, well, it's ballroom dancing, like you see on PBS... Waltz, Tango, Samba, etc." And he put his nose to the air and said, "Oh, I'm interested in the classical ballroom dances, like court dances."

So, I think ballroom really is any partner dancing done in a ballroom, and then you break it down into styles/categories from there.

[chachachacat]

Welcome, Caityrosey!

[caityrosey]

Welcome, Caityrosey!
Thanks chachacha.
I aspire to improve my social rank...I believe as a newbie I qualify as a serf or a scullery maid...how do I become a bard, a paladin, a sire, or perhaps a pope? :)

[chachachacat]

Thanks chachacha.
I aspire to improve my social rank...I believe as a newbie I qualify as a serf or a scullery maid...how do I become a bard, a paladin, a sire, or perhaps a pope? :)
Keep on posting! We appreciate wit and intelligence like yours!

[Joe]

I think CCCC should have a custom title: Aristocat. :)

[cornutt]

Thanks chachacha.
I aspire to improve my social rank...I believe as a newbie I qualify as a serf or a scullery maid...how do I become a bard, a paladin, a sire, or perhaps a pope? :)

Bah. After six months of hard posting labor, I find that my reward is to be labeled "bourgoius". ;)

[Leggie]

I actually use ballroom to mean two or three different things (confusingly).

A) Waltz, Foxtrot, Quickstep, Samba, Jive, Rumba, Tango, Rock 'n' Roll, etc.

B) Waltz, Foxtrot, Quickstep, Viennese Waltz.

I suppose the difference in my usage is that I use the first definition as a generic term (though sometimes I will make myself clearer by stating "ballroom/latin"), perhaps when talking to a non-dancer or someone I don't know well; I use the second to differentiate it from latin dancing.

I however exclude Sequence, Swing, Old-time, and Line dancing, from either definition. So perhaps that's another addition to my criteria - "must be based on 'official' set steps but not arranged in any particular sequence." Am I making sense?

[fascination]

Bah. After six months of hard posting labor, I find that my reward is to be labeled "bourgoius". ;)hey I wanna be pope;)

[Ithink]

hey I wanna be pope;)

Instead you are a moderator:)

[fascination]

Instead you are a moderator:)it's a start....;)

[Quimbly]

My take on the dance universe....

http://www.cowtowndance.com/universe.gif

[Katarzyna]

Interesting take on this.. Although I wouldn't put hustle and two-step in the ballroom category... I like this visual presentation though

[Standard Dancer]

That's a great way to present your view ... I think it's very clear. I'm actually not sure where I would put some of those, but still, well done, Quimbly :)

[gracie]

Interesting take on this.. Although I wouldn't put hustle and two-step in the ballroom category... I like this visual presentation though Hustle is competed at Ballroom events though, but 2 step isn't. You could put in another category- club dancing- put Night- Club 2 in that circle and really complicate things! I like it! :cheers:

[Katarzyna]

Hustle is competed at Ballroom events thoughhm.. interesting. I haven't see that

[gracie]

Thanks chachacha.
I aspire to improve my social rank...I believe as a newbie I qualify as a serf or a scullery maid...how do I become a bard, a paladin, a sire, or perhaps a pope? :) I thought maybe if I donated something to the silent auction I could perhaps move up to peasant but I don't know how.:confused:

[Katarzyna]

I thought maybe if I donated something to the silent auction I could perhaps move up to peasant but I don't know how.:confused:couple more posts and you will grow in the ranks ;)

[gracie]

I think CCCC should have a custom title: Aristocat. :) VERY Cute!!!!!:rolleyes:

[caityrosey]

My take on the dance universe....

http://www.cowtowndance.com/universe.gif
That's about right

[caityrosey]

But I agree with some of the others too that it is hard to know exactly where to put club dances and quasi-ethnic dances

[SDsalsaguy]

I thought maybe if I donated something to the silent auction... but I don't know how.:confused:
All you need to do to donate something to the Silent Auction is let me know via PM. :D

[Standard Dancer]

hm.. interesting. I haven't see that

I haven't really seen it either, but I noticed that Caltech is having a competition (Dance of the Roses) in February and one of the divisions is entitled "Nightclub" with one of the events being hustle ... so I guess it is competed at ballroom comps ...

[cornutt]

Very interesting diagram, Quimbly. Thanks.

A few random thoughts:

1. Another poster mentioned not having seen hustle competed at a ballroom event. Oddly, nearly every comp I've been to has included hustle. Is that unusual?

2. Good point on the diagram about the fact that ECS, WCS, and jive are often competed at ballroom events, but lindy seldom is. Since ECS is pretty much a straight lineage from lindy, one would wonder why that is.

3. There is such a thing as a counry waltz. However, other than being in 3/4 time, it bears almost no resemblence to standard or smooth waltz. (Actually, country waltz is a bit of a sore point with me. It can be an interesting dance. However, I see way too many couples where the leader twirls the follower around all over the place, but the leader's own "dancing" is pretty much confined to walking in time. It's a particular problem with this dance. I don't know why that is.)

4. Bolero, although in the "Latin" circle, isn't actually in the Latin syllabus. How it escaped, I'm not sure, but it's only a syllabus dance in rhythm. And, from what people have written here, it seems to be confined to the U.S., and a lot of international dancers have never even seen it.

5. Merengue isn't on the diagram. I have seen it at comps, fairly often actually.

[Larinda McRaven]

There is also the Argentine Tango group to consider.

[Quimbly]

Interesting take on this.. Although I wouldn't put hustle and two-step in the ballroom category... I like this visual presentation though

Yeah, I was debating Two-Step being in the Ballroom category or not... But it does bear a lot of resemblance to many other standard/smooth dances. Plus many introductory american style ballroom classes include two-step in the ciriculum... at least where I live... CowTown, Canada!

[Quimbly]

Very interesting diagram, Quimbly. Thanks.

A few random thoughts:

1. Another poster mentioned not having seen hustle competed at a ballroom event. Oddly, nearly every comp I've been to has included hustle. Is that unusual?

2. Good point on the diagram about the fact that ECS, WCS, and jive are often competed at ballroom events, but lindy seldom is. Since ECS is pretty much a straight lineage from lindy, one would wonder why that is.

3. There is such a thing as a counry waltz. However, other than being in 3/4 time, it bears almost no resemblence to standard or smooth waltz. (Actually, country waltz is a bit of a sore point with me. It can be an interesting dance. However, I see way too many couples where the leader twirls the follower around all over the place, but the leader's own "dancing" is pretty much confined to walking in time. It's a particular problem with this dance. I don't know why that is.)

4. Bolero, although in the "Latin" circle, isn't actually in the Latin syllabus. How it escaped, I'm not sure, but it's only a syllabus dance in rhythm. And, from what people have written here, it seems to be confined to the U.S., and a lot of international dancers have never even seen it.

5. Merengue isn't on the diagram. I have seen it at comps, fairly often actually.

Much insight! Thank you.

Ah yes, Country Waltz. I'm sure there's many dances I've not included. But yes, I would definitely say Country Waltz is all Country.

Interesting... I don't know much about Bolero, and only dance it occasionally. I slotted it in the Latin category with the ballroom since the music perfect for bolero is always latin.

[chachachacat]

I think CCCC should have a custom title: Aristocat. :)Meow!:kitty:

[tacad]

Hustle is danced at most of the ballroom dances I go to. Once in a great while someone will put on a country 2 step. But mostly we don't dance country 2 step at my dances.

[bjp22tango]

A few random thoughts:
3. There is such a thing as a counry waltz. However, other than being in 3/4 time, it bears almost no resemblence to standard or smooth waltz. (Actually, country waltz is a bit of a sore point with me. It can be an interesting dance. However, I see way too many couples where the leader twirls the follower around all over the place, but the leader's own "dancing" is pretty much confined to walking in time. It's a particular problem with this dance. I don't know why that is.)

This is the main reason I don't like country western dancing of ANY kind because it seems to deteriorate to the guy walking around twirling the girl like a lasso over his head, and don't get me started on the ducks and tunnels they TRY to lead.

[bjp22tango]

Like several of the other posters, I use "Ballroom" to denote many things depending on who I am talking to.

Non-dance person Ballroom=partner dances
Beginner dancer Ballroom=Smooth/Standard/Latin/Rhythm
More experienced dancer Ballroom=Smooth/Standard

[tsb]

i've been following this to see what people would say. i like the venn diagram.

my most common usage of the term describes almost all partner dances except for folk/contra dancing. when i say "i'm going to a ballroom dance" - it's usually a social event where the selection of music played will vary from venue to venue. some places will include all of the most common "club" dances such as salsa (& merengue), WCS, AT, etc.

but i also categorize ballroom as one of the dances where it's common to have a venue dedicated to solely to that dance as in "i dance ballroom, swing, salsa, WCS, AT, vintage (historical) etc. - and i DON'T do C/W!!!"

[tanya_the_dancer]

Yeah, I was debating Two-Step being in the Ballroom category or not... But it does bear a lot of resemblance to many other standard/smooth dances. Plus many introductory american style ballroom classes include two-step in the ciriculum... at least where I live... CowTown, Canada!

I like your diagram. I think two-step is all-country though. Here it is being taught in CW classes, but nobody does it as part of american style. And I am not sure about hustle being country. I think it belongs next to jive on the diagram, it's too urban to be country.

[Quimbly]

...And I am not sure about hustle being country. I think it belongs next to jive on the diagram, it's too urban to be country.

Country is strange that way, isn't it? Although, many of the Country dance studios I've visited do teach hustle as part of their ciriculum, I agree that Hustle seems outside of it's realm.

When I think of hustle, I think of John Travolta, Disco, night-clubbing, techno, etc., none of which remind me of John Travolta (unless, of course, you think of the movie Urban Cowboy ;))

But country likes to "steal" dances and to "countrify" them: waltz, cha-cha, hustle... It's all quite funny, really.

[chachachacat]

I like your diagram. I think two-step is all-country though. Here it is being taught in CW classes, but nobody does it as part of american style. And I am not sure about hustle being country. I think it belongs next to jive on the diagram, it's too urban to be country.I agree. Two step is CW.
Here they have "Nightclub Dances" - WCS, Hustle, Nightclub Two Step.

[Twilight_Elena]

Ah, I'm not really familiar with all of these dances, so can't give an objective opinion. I wouldn't put dances such as salsa in the ballroom category, though. Ballroom is not a group of dances in my head, it's sort of a mindset.

Twilight Elena

[Quimbly]

Ah, I'm not really familiar with all of these dances, so can't give an objective opinion. I wouldn't put dances such as salsa in the ballroom category, though. Ballroom is not a group of dances in my head, it's sort of a mindset.

Twilight Elena

pssst, I put Salsa outside of the Ballroom "bubble" ;)

[lynn]

the nice diagram's not there any more :(....

[Quimbly]

the nice diagram's not there any more :(....

:o Weird! It appears to be there for me. Maybe my host just had a momentary burp! :(

[lynn]

yay!! it's back!!

I wonder whether or not two-step & hustle should be considered ballroom though.... i know some ballroom-centric studios do teacher hustle but not so much as two-step...... but I don't think that many people dance C&W in my area....

[gracie]

Very interesting diagram, Quimbly. Thanks.

A few random thoughts:

1. Another poster mentioned not having seen hustle competed at a ballroom event. Oddly, nearly every comp I've been to has included hustle. Is that unusual?

2. Good point on the diagram about the fact that ECS, WCS, and jive are often competed at ballroom events, but lindy seldom is. Since ECS is pretty much a straight lineage from lindy, one would wonder why that is.

3. There is such a thing as a counry waltz. However, other than being in 3/4 time, it bears almost no resemblence to standard or smooth waltz. (Actually, country waltz is a bit of a sore point with me. It can be an interesting dance. However, I see way too many couples where the leader twirls the follower around all over the place, but the leader's own "dancing" is pretty much confined to walking in time. It's a particular problem with this dance. I don't know why that is.)

4. Bolero, although in the "Latin" circle, isn't actually in the Latin syllabus. How it escaped, I'm not sure, but it's only a syllabus dance in rhythm. And, from what people have written here, it seems to be confined to the U.S., and a lot of international dancers have never even seen it.

5. Merengue isn't on the diagram. I have seen it at comps, fairly often actually. In our area, country competitors are trying to bring up their level of
waltz. The country Pros are sending their students to the Top Ballroom pros for training. It is so cool to see them start to collect, improve their posture, and shaping. Also for their Cha-Cha. The dance you describe where the women spin alot and the men essentially take walking steps sounds like Country Two-step to me. I have taken 2-step and NC-2 from some of the country pros and I really enjoyed it although I am a BR dancer first and foremost. I like the country or club style of NC better than what I see the BR instructors teaching that looks bouncy and almost like a cross between Salsa and Samba. Interesting topic. This forum is great!

[jon]

3. There is such a thing as a counry waltz. However, other than being in 3/4 time, it bears almost no resemblence to standard or smooth waltz.

Waltz as done by people on the UCWDC circuit today is very similar to American style ballroom Waltz. Waltz as done by drunken saloon-goers may be a different matter.

[fascination]

Waltz as done by people on the UCWDC circuit today is very similar to American style ballroom Waltz. Waltz as done by drunken saloon-goers may be a different matter.well every once in a while dh and I are somewhere where the only 3/4 time music that gets played just happens to be country and I assure you that some ballroon waltzing is goin' on:cool:

[jon]

well every once in a while dh and I are somewhere where the only 3/4 time music that gets played just happens to be country and I assure you that some ballroon waltzing is goin' on:cool:

And the country world has the advantage of new waltz music, some of which is quite pretty.

[fascination]

And the country world has the advantage of new waltz music, some of which is quite pretty.not a huge country fan but I do appreciate an occasional tune...and I certainly appreciate a contemporary waltz...very frustrated at OSB over the lack of available contemporary waltz CDs

[pygmalion]

not a huge country fan but I do appreciate an occasional tune...and I certainly appreciate a contemporary waltz...very frustrated at OSB over the lack of available contemporary waltz CDs

To dance to in competition? Or to buy?

And what's the deal with the vendors at OSB anyway? Nice representation? :)

[fascination]

To dance to in competition? Or to buy?

And what's the deal with the vendors at OSB anyway? Nice representation? :)both, but I meant to buy....the vendors there were great ...I was just under impressed w/ the waltz selections

[gracie]

hm.. interesting. I haven't see that Just looked at the Emerald Ball Website for 2006 and they're having pro-am divisions for Salsa, Lindy Hop, AT, Hustle, Night-Club 2, and Country Western 2-step! What is the BR world coming to?

[Chris Stratton]

Just looked at the Emerald Ball Website for 2006 and they're having pro-am divisions for Salsa, Lindy Hop, AT, Hustle, Night-Club 2, and Country Western 2-step! What is the BR world coming to?

To paraphrase Yogurt, "marketing, where the real money from the competition is made"

[caityrosey]

To paraphrase Yogurt, "marketing, where the real money from the competition is made"

Yogurt? As in Yoplait?

[Medira]

To paraphrase Yogurt, "marketing, where the real money from the competition is made"
Yay Spaceballs! :D

[caityrosey]

Yay Spaceballs! :D

Ohhhh. It has been a while. I do own that movie, but it's a litte silly for me, even as Mel Brooks movies go...

[Medira]

Ohhhh. It has been a while. I do own that movie, but it's a litte silly for me, even as Mel Brooks movies go...
I saw the tail end of it on tv not too long ago. :)

[fascination]

I saw the tail end of it on tv not too long ago. :)tapping foot anxiously waiting for email present like a kid on christmas day;)

[Medira]

tapping foot anxiously waiting for email present like a kid on christmas day;)
Your e-mail doesn't like me! I'm working on it though!

[fascination]

Your e-mail doesn't like me! I'm working on it though!just gotta say I love this place and the people in it:kissme:

[Medira]

just gotta say I love this place and the people in it:kissme:
:D The feeling is mutual, my dear. *squeezes tight* :kissme:

[caityrosey]

:D The feeling is mutual, my dear. *squeezes tight* :kissme:

Those are saucy smily faces.

[liangjz]

I think of "ballroom" as meaning standard, smooth, latin, and rhythm ... I usually specify "standard" or "smooth" when I'm talking about those styles in particular ...

Same with me, although I think people often use the term DanceSport.

[Quimbly]

My old link is broken, so here's the new one:

http://www.cowtowndance.com/misc/universe.gif

[caityrosey]

* nudge * this is a good topic, but I've given my quarter's worth

[Porfirio Landeros]

My old link is broken, so here's the new one...I love the chart... the only thing I would possibly change is to move waltz next to the cha cha, since there seem to be waltz pieces played in the country/western and Latino dance circles as well. In fact, a lot of Mexican music is still created in 3/4 time.

[chachachacat]

This is a great diagram! I think this is an accurate representation of what's what. Good job, Quimbly!

[SDsalsaguy]

I love the chart... the only thing I would possibly change is to move waltz next to the cha cha, since there seem to be waltz pieces played in the country/western and Latino dance circles as well. In fact, a lot of Mexican music is still created in 3/4 time.
Along the same lines I was going to say that I thought Wlatz should be moved next to Two Step since it is also part of (and contested within) the CW genre as well.

[fascination]

Along the same lines I was going to say that I thought Wlatz should be moved next to Two Step since it is also part of (and contested within) the CW genre as well.shame on you...

[Sagitta]

I say just dance and enjoy it...and forget about the labelling. ;-) That's what I do. :-)