Starting a competition

[caityrosey]

Hi all.

You all seem experienced in competition organization and such things. I want to pose this question the collective fount-of-all-knowledge:

What are the requirements and steps necessary to get a competition organized, promoted... etc...?

Any special recommendations?

Lets assume for setting: a mid-size college town if that helps.

[Indiana_Jay]

What are the requirements and steps necessary to get a competition organized, promoted... etc...?
CaityRosey:

I've not yet even been to a competition, even as a spectator, but I do have a couple of suggestions for you. If you haven't already, visit the web sites of the National Dance Council of America (http://www.ndca.org/) and USA Dance (http://www.usabda.org/) (formerly U.S. Amateur Ballroom Dance Association). If you look deep enough on their sites, I think you can find their competition rules, which might be helpful. I'm sure you'll also find information on how to contact each orgazniation to ask for additional resources on starting a competition.

Good luck!

-IJ

[ACtenDance]

Running a bare bones competition really isn't as tough as everyone thinks. Facility, competitors, judges, music, a couple other officials, and that's basically all you need. The rest is really just to make things "nicer" or more convenient.

If you have any colleges teams close by, I'm sure that they'll support your competition especially if you use the typical $25 entry fee that most college comps use.

[Laura]

When we put together a comp the first thing we do is find a facility and set a date. Once we've got that, we start asking judges. For a non-sanctioned competition, you can use local teachers and pros rather than having to bring in a lot of people from the outside. The one thing you definitely will need is a scrutineer, that's the one thing I'd spend extra money on if I had to so as to get someone with experience.

Don't schedule too many events if you've never done this before. It's much better to run a small competition the first time and have it all work out well than to have it end up being a big mess that doesn't run on time. It helps to play around with some scheduling software like CompManager (you can download and use it for free for small competitions) or anything else that may be out there -- I use CompManager to "dummy up" a schedule and play around with things to see how times work out.

[caityrosey]

Running a bare bones competition really isn't as tough as everyone thinks. Facility, competitors, judges, music, a couple other officials, and that's basically all you need. The rest is really just to make things "nicer" or more convenient.

If you have any colleges teams close by, I'm sure that they'll support your competition especially if you use the typical $25 entry fee that most college comps use.

It's good to know that you don't have to worry about putting together an elaborately set up comp your first time

[caityrosey]

When we put together a comp the first thing we do is find a facility and set a date. Once we've got that, we start asking judges. For a non-sanctioned competition, you can use local teachers and pros rather than having to bring in a lot of people from the outside. The one thing you definitely will need is a scrutineer, that's the one thing I'd spend extra money on if I had to so as to get someone with experience.



Anyone you would recommend in the Chicago/Milwaukee/Twin Cities general area (for scrutineer)?

[caityrosey]

At one comp a few years ago they had their sound system stolen (they had set it up the night before) and had to improvise at the last minute. Any ideas about the kind of equipment that is needed and how long it takes to set up and test the day of?

[caityrosey]

Do we try to use whatever music we have lying around for the heats, or is there a good source for comp music to tap into?

[caityrosey]

Do you think it's worthwhile to try to have exhibitors at a small competition?

[Chris Stratton]

Do we try to use whatever music we have lying around for the heats, or is there a good source for comp music to tap into?

You'll need to invest several hundred dollars in a collection of quality ballroom CD's. Generally, even from the best publishers only 2-4 of the 20 tracks on a disk are really worth using. You have to catalog what's worthwhile in the collection, ideally including its suitability for various levels, and then pick from that during the competition. You can copy everything onto the computer, but make sure you have a backup computer if you go that route... they love to crash when you are depending on them most.

[caityrosey]

You'll need to invest several hundred dollars in a collection of quality ballroom CD's. Generally, even from the best publishers only 2-4 of the 20 tracks on a disk are really worth using. You have to catalog what's worthwhile in the collection, ideally including its suitability for various levels, and then pick from that during the competition. You can copy everything onto the computer, but make sure you have a backup computer if you go that route... they love to crash when you are depending on them most.

Assuming, since this would be our first comp, that we don't yet possess this fantastical collection you speak of, is there any other way of obtaining said music...borrowing...renting...begging on a street corner...

[wyllo]

Caityrosey -- I'm emailing you, there is a local DJ and sound system that does weekly ballroom dances and hires out to student organizations for a very reasonable fee.

[Indiana_Jay]

You'll need to invest several hundred dollars in a collection of quality ballroom CD's. Generally, even from the best publishers only 2-4 of the 20 tracks on a disk are really worth using. You have to catalog what's worthwhile in the collection, ideally including its suitability for various levels, and then pick from that during the competition. You can copy everything onto the computer, but make sure you have a backup computer if you go that route... they love to crash when you are depending on them most.

I know that the dance studio I use pays music licensing fees to The American Society of Composers, Authors and Publishers (ASCAP). Are competitions required to pay such fees as well?

[wyllo]

Does anyone have guidelines for how many different songs are needed for a competition. For example, how many waltz versions should you have? Should you plan on one for every heat or can you run a rotation of like x no. of waltzes for all the waltz heats?

[Chris Stratton]

Does anyone have guidelines for how many different songs are needed for a competition. For example, how many waltz versions should you have? Should you plan on one for every heat or can you run a rotation of like x no. of waltzes for all the waltz heats?

To get on the same page we have to first address a common terminology problem, reinforced by a 'bug' in the companager software.

An event is one particular contest within a competition, say Bronze International Waltz/Quickstep.

A round is one runing of the dance for all still-elgible participants

A heat is a particular subdivision of the current round into a number of couples that can share the floor.

now to anwer the question:

It's fairly common to play the same song for all heats of a given round. Ideally you would not then re-use that song in the competition, though you could probably do so at a much later time.

If it's a good song, re-using it earlier will at worst earn the complaint of being boring... probably better to play a good song twice than to play a poor song at all.

[wyllo]

Thanks Chris, that clears up a few things!

[caityrosey]

Fishing for funny and instructive annecdotes:

What is the worst/funniest "oops" you've seen happen at a competition (not done by dancers, but by organizers and such folks in charge). How could the problem have been fixed/avoided/handled better.

[wyllo]

I'd say its a tie between:

a) The competition that started two hours late becuase the organizers were at Kinko's running copies of the program.

b) The competition that gave duplicate numbers to multiple competitors (and then stopped the competition for 40 minutes while they tried to figure out what to do about it).

Comp 'a' needed to plan ahead a little more or start the competition without the programs and make them available later. Competition 'b' should have issued new numbers and run callbacks with all the people with the repeat numbers (instead they ran all the first rounds again).

[redhead]

Fishing for funny and instructive annecdotes:

What is the worst/funniest "oops" you've seen happen at a competition (not done by dancers, but by organizers and such folks in charge). How could the problem have been fixed/avoided/handled better.
1) I know we filled out the form right, but I was listed as a gentleman, so registration desk couldn't find our number for a long time (it's usually under gent's last name) and we started panicking
2) I showed up to pick up our number about 2 hours before our heats, and the lady at the front desk said "oh please check heat times with IT lady, I think your heat was moved up so you may have to dance in 20 minutes". That almost gave me a heart attack since I had no make up on and my partner was supposed to meet me only an hour later. Sure enough she was wrong, but how nerve wrecking!

[redhead]

Anyone you would recommend in the Chicago/Milwaukee/Twin Cities general area (for scrutineer)?
try NDCA website under "directory" - it gives you an option to search for scrutineer by state

[Laura]

To get on the same page we have to first address a common terminology problem, reinforced by a 'bug' in the companager software.

What bug? You mean that it calls everything "heats", which is confusing?

[ACtenDance]

Caityrosey -- I'm emailing you, there is a local DJ and sound system that does weekly ballroom dances and hires out to student organizations for a very reasonable fee.

You can also try to see if a local USA Dance chapter can do the music for you. They always have a collection of music to use at social dances. No guarantees about the quality... but you can usually convince someone to do your music for free.

[Laura]

That's a good idea -- if the local chapter has been hosting social dances or their own comps then that's definitely someone to check with. Heck, you could even sweeten the pot by giving the chapter a pile of spectator tickets to get in to watch for free. That way there's a chance of getting some people there to watch who probably woudln't have come otherwise.

[wyllo]

Unfortunately, there is no local USA Dance chapter. But I think there are a number of local dancers who might help out in the musica department. (We do have a very active social scence).

[caityrosey]

Unfortunately, there is no local USA Dance chapter. But I think there are a number of local dancers who might help out in the musica department. (We do have a very active social scence).

What about Milwaukee?

[caityrosey]

That's a good idea -- if the local chapter has been hosting social dances or their own comps then that's definitely someone to check with. Heck, you could even sweeten the pot by giving the chapter a pile of spectator tickets to get in to watch for free. That way there's a chance of getting some people there to watch who probably woudln't have come otherwise.
Very smart!

[scullystwin42]

So are you planning to put one on in the Chicago/Milwaukee area soon? i'm always looking for more midwest comps.

[wyllo]

Madison -- less than a 2 1/2 hour drive from Chicago (and less big city hassle than Milwaukee). We're still in the "wouldn't it be nice" stage, but interest here is high so things could move quickly. Any thoughts on what time of year would be best?

[fascination]

Madison -- less than a 2 1/2 hour drive from Chicago (and less big city hassle than Milwaukee). We're still in the "wouldn't it be nice" stage, but interest here is high so things could move quickly. Any thoughts on what time of year would be best?summer or january...i'd go;)

[caityrosey]

What are everyone's favorite Fun-Dances at competitions?

[Klaudia]

It's actually very easy to start your own competition. If you want to have it recognized and sanctioned by USA Dance they have guidelines already set up and are quite easy to follow. Also, there's some people in the national organization who are extremely helpful although I probably shouldn't broadcast their names/emails to the forum. Also, you can always host a comp that's not recognized but getting the publicity from the national organization is certainly a plus.

[caityrosey]

It's actually very easy to start your own competition. If you want to have it recognized and sanctioned by USA Dance they have guidelines already set up and are quite easy to follow. Also, there's some people in the national organization who are extremely helpful although I probably shouldn't broadcast their names/emails to the forum. Also, you can always host a comp that's not recognized but getting the publicity from the national organization is certainly a plus.

Please feel free to PM me with any information that you think might be helpful but that you don't want to post. I would certainly appreciate any good info! :)

[caityrosey]

Do any of you have experience with attracting sponsors for events like this? Any companies who are already ballroom sponsors?

[redhead]

Madison -- less than a 2 1/2 hour drive from Chicago (and less big city hassle than Milwaukee). We're still in the "wouldn't it be nice" stage, but interest here is high so things could move quickly. Any thoughts on what time of year would be best?
probably early fall, since there is no comp in that area in fall - plus tons of college students would probably attend, so summer break would not be good (my 2c)

[caityrosey]

probably early fall, since there is no comp in that area in fall - plus tons of college students would probably attend, so summer break would not be good (my 2c)

Do you really think early fall is a good time? If it is, great.

It has always seemed to me that college students prefer a comp that is not right at the beginning of the year because having a comp early means there is less time for everyone who has been on summer vacation to get caught up, and it would tend to leave out all the new people who have just joined the group and may not have had the opportunity to learn much yet.

[redhead]

I'm just looking how comps in the area are distributed throughout the year. January has a little comp in Mpls, February has USABDA comp in Mpls as well. April - many ppl go to Indiana and Milwaukee, then in May and June are two Chicago comps. July has TCO, August has nationals - and it's summer break anyway. October - something-Moon in Chicago. November and December - too many holidays, student prob'ly go home a lot. Plus, if you want to attract ppl not only from Madison but from surrounding area, remember that most folks will be driving (Madison)- therefore, it's better when road conditions are predictable.
Alos, beginning of the year is a good way to get newbies excited, and make February comp their next goal (I think that one gets well attended by students, even with a team match)
does that make sense?

[caityrosey]

Where does one obtain numbers to pin on leads?

What type of layout program to you all tend to use when putting together a program?

[Another Elizabeth]

Where does one obtain numbers to pin on leads?
You can get Tyvek numbers from a sports print shop - you should be able to Google one in your area. Often you can get them from the same places that sell trophies, too. You can get a big box of safety pins cheap from a local drycleaner.

[Laura]

I wish I knew the name of it, but there's a place on line that sells the Tyvek numbers very inexpensively so long as you don't demand that the lot you buy starts at 100. They'll sell you ranges in the higher numbers that are left over when other people order and say they only want numbers from 100-200. I've run a couple of comps where everyone was numbered in the 300's or 500's or whatever because of this, but we sure didn't pay much for the numbers!

For the pins, you can get a HUGE box very inexpensively online from SewTrue or from Manhattan Wardrobe Supply.

[caityrosey]

What is a standard ballroom size? (dimensions of the dance floor?)

[Chris Stratton]

60 x 36 feet _minimum_

A high school basketball court is 84 x 50 and an NCAA one is 94 x 50

Usually there's enough overrun area that you can set up the dance floor sideways if you have to, a double court is ideal though as you can align any way you like and have plenty of walking clearance on all sides.

[caityrosey]

60 x 36 feet _minimum_

A high school basketball court is 84 x 50 and an NCAA one is 94 x 50

Usually there's enough overrun area that you can set up the dance floor sideways if you have to, a double court is ideal though as you can align any way you like and have plenty of walking clearance on all sides.

Do you think the floor of most college basketball courts would be too slippery?

[Katarzyna]

Generall, college basketball courts work well. Someties they are a bit sticky or a bit slippery...

[Indiana_Jay]

I think that when CaityRosey is finished gathering all the information she needs, she should compile it all into a "starting a competition" FAQ and publish it online! Seems like she's coming up with a bunch of excellent questions, the answeres to which any new comp organizer would value.

[Chris Stratton]

Do you think the floor of most college basketball courts would be too slippery?

Most of them seem to work fine unless either

1) You get on it within a month of a new finish being applied (usually done each summer)

2) Someone waxes it, either "for you" or to protect it from you.

[caityrosey]

I think that when CaityRosey is finished gathering all the information she needs, she should compile it all into a "starting a competition" FAQ and publish it online! Seems like she's coming up with a bunch of excellent questions, the answeres to which any new comp organizer would value.

Believe me, when we're done with this I will do something to ensure that I never lose this info!...How small do you think a talented tatoo artist can write ?:nope:

[Chris Stratton]

Believe me, when we're done with this I will do something to ensure that I never lose this info!...How small do you think a talented tatoo artist can write ?:nope:

"Dancers, please follow the syllabus... or you will be tatooed with it"

[caityrosey]

"Dancers, please follow the syllabus... or you will be tatooed with it"

"be forwarned, tatooer has large handwriting and poor aim" :shock:

[Keelzorz]

Tattoo-ing the syllabus is a magnificent idea! It wouldn't be all that effective for international viennese waltz, with it's 7 steps, but I'd think twice before going on the floor for Paso. That's one long step list.

[caityrosey]

Most venues I've looked at do not have laid-in floors, so renting would be necessary. I've looked at rental places and it would cost a god awful amount to rent the appropriate amount of flooring. Doesn't $13-20 seem a little much?

[Laura]

$13-$20 for what what? Is that the price per square foot? Or for square section (I think each section is nearly 3 feet by 3 feet).

Renting a floor isn't cheap, but it's a whole lot less expensive than buying and storing one!

[caityrosey]

$13-$20 for what what? Is that the price per square foot? Or for square section (I think each section is nearly 3 feet by 3 feet).

Renting a floor isn't cheap, but it's a whole lot less expensive than buying and storing one!

yes, pardon my forgetting the units :)

that's $13-20/sq yd.

Yes, I suppose it is cheaper than buying and storing one. But 240 sq yards of that does give one pause...

I suppose just whining...please excuse me. This reminds me a lot of shopping for a house....

[caityrosey]

So, just to clarify a topic we were discussing earlier--I checked into school district space as suggested and the other posters were partially right about availabilty--it isn't all that hard to get space in the schools--it's the univerisity athletic facilities that are the problem. I did discover though, that the district in our area will only allow you to request space on a school year basis, that is, you can't request space for any time during the 2006-2007 school year until July 2006. This might be ok if you want space in May 2007 (for comp planning purposes), but not so good if you want space for October. I'm not sure if this is true in other areas, but I put this bit of info out in case it is useful for anyone else to know.

[wyllo]

I need some help interpreting the USA Dance rules regarding chapter competitions. The way I read it -- a chapter can host an unrecognized (non sanctioned?), open chapter competition without permission from the natonal office. Is that correct?

Also, I could use advice as to the number of judges a competition needs. I have been to many collegiate competitions where there are 5 judges and that seems to work well. Is there any reason to hire more?

[Another Elizabeth]

Also, I could use advice as to the number of judges a competition needs. I have been to many collegiate competitions where there are 5 judges and that seems to work well. Is there any reason to hire more?
Depends on how crowded your schedule is and what your budget is. It is preferable to have at least 5 judges on the floor for every event. If your schedule is tight enough, that could mean that no judge ever gets a bathroom break or a meal if you only hire 5 judges. So you'd be better off hiring 7, and using 5 on and 2 off for most of the comp (they may all want to judge the finals, especially the open finals). But if you have a lunch break scheduled in for everyone and you expect regular general dancing breaks, you could get away with 5.

[Laura]

I need some help interpreting the USA Dance rules regarding chapter competitions. The way I read it -- a chapter can host an unrecognized (non sanctioned?), open chapter competition without permission from the natonal office. Is that correct?

Yes. We used to do this four times a year in our chapter. In fact, we're doing another one in January. The competitions are implicitly sanctioned, as we are a USA Dance club and we operate under USA Dance rules. But we're not a recognized competition, which means we are small and local and not granting proficiency points.

Also, I could use advice as to the number of judges a competition needs. I have been to many collegiate competitions where there are 5 judges and that seems to work well. Is there any reason to hire more?

We do our small unrecognized comps with 5. These are just local "club level" comps. Our larger comps have 9 or 11. (We really should be going for 11 at these.) I think Nationals will have 15 or 17, I'm not sure -- we don't pick the jduges for Nationals, the Nationals Steering Committee (which is different from the Nationals Organizing Committee) is handling that.

[ACtenDance]

I need some help interpreting the USA Dance rules regarding chapter competitions. The way I read it -- a chapter can host an unrecognized (non sanctioned?), open chapter competition without permission from the natonal office. Is that correct?

Also, I could use advice as to the number of judges a competition needs. I have been to many collegiate competitions where there are 5 judges and that seems to work well. Is there any reason to hire more?

If this is your first time hosting a competition, don't feel bad about hosting a non-recognized competition. Almost all college competitions are non-recognized. To tell the truth, there isn't a whole lot that becoming a sanctioned comp will do for you unless you'd some day like to host a regional (or nationals I suppose). That being said, try to stick to the rules as closely as you can. Dancers will appreciate the standardization.

If you are going to hire only 5 judges, make sure they are good judges. Usually when you have only five judges, you will have 3 judging in an event. With only 3 on the floor, one judges opinion can make a big difference... that person's opinion better mean something.