Dance Culture vs. Lessons Culture

[brujo]

So there some cultures have this whole dancing things down pat. Dancing is part of life, and the music is around you all the time. Cuba, Dominican Republic, etc. The music is just blasting from windows and everyone thinks they can dance. I would say the United States was probably a dancing culture too at the beginning of the century, where you have swing dancers, etc. Where you knew that you could walk into a bar and ask anyone to dance, and they would know what your were talking about. You pick up moves from your friends, they taught their friends, etc.

Then there is the dance lessons culture in the United States, Canada, and Europe. Where dancing is not really part of the culture. ( Does everyone in Texas know how to line dance? ). You take lessons, people get really good and have more of an individual competition with each other. I want to get better, etc.

Is this difference cultural? Latin America, Africa are usually considered collectivist cultures, where the social interactions between people is highly valued. Where North America is more individualist - your own archievements are what matter. Does this mentality translate in the dancing?

What do you prefer? A place where everyone dances - but without much skill - no lessons for me type of mentality. But the dancing is so pervasive in the culture that you can go and find a place to dance anytime you want. Or a place where only those who can afford dance lessons can dance, but they do it really well?

[smooth_criminal]

What do you prefer? A place where everyone dances - but without much skill - no lessons for me type of mentality. But the dancing is so pervasive in the culture that you can go and find a place to dance anytime you want. Or a place where only those who can afford dance lessons can dance, but they do it really well?

This should be an interesting discussion... I have also observed this "competitive" versus "just for fun" mentality with dancers, you know when you have been training for a year and instead of enjoying what you can and dance for fun, you feel as if you know nothing and just want to learn more and more, up to a level where you imagine yourself competing instead of just dancing for fun.

I mean that when I first saw my current salsa instructor (2 years ago) he was showing the 'basic step' and I was like "WOW!!! How smooth, elegant, almost like a wild animal he is doing his move..." :notworth: And this was just a basic step... I decided that when I learn to do this step the way he does it, that I will quit salsa dancing ;) Then you have the other step, called 'cuban' step, where basically you step left and right instead of forward/backward. This step should be more than enough to enjoy the dance and feel the music (although I am yet to see someone do it the way it should be done)... perhaps you will also need to know how to turn a lady and there you go... Instead, I see guys (including me) trying to do 3 spins in 3 counts of the music and some other crazy tricks which are only needed in a competition. Is this really necessary to enjoy the dance, the way Cubans or Brazilians and the other Latin cultures enjoy it? Why can't we dance salsa the way we dance in a normal club... just feeling the rhythm (after some practice of course), doing some small steps, holding the lady close to your body and enjoying the connection instead of doing "sombrero complicado al derecho al reves" or some crazy LA trick :bouncy:

[alemana]

one of the main reasons dancing has a comparatively threadbare history in the United States, compared to some other places, is the prevalence of religious attitudes specifically prohibiting it. large swathes of American history were dominated by groups that believed dancing was either

a) a sin
b) precursor to a sin
c) imitative of the sin of fornication

You can romanticize certain dances and the eras associated with them, but I think those moments of popularity are the exceptions rather than the rule.

[tanya_the_dancer]

So there some cultures have this whole dancing things down pat. Dancing is part of life, and the music is around you all the time. Cuba, Dominican Republic, etc. The music is just blasting from windows and everyone thinks they can dance. I would say the United States was probably a dancing culture too at the beginning of the century, where you have swing dancers, etc. Where you knew that you could walk into a bar and ask anyone to dance, and they would know what your were talking about. You pick up moves from your friends, they taught their friends, etc.

Then there is the dance lessons culture in the United States, Canada, and Europe. Where dancing is not really part of the culture. ( Does everyone in Texas know how to line dance? ). You take lessons, people get really good and have more of an individual competition with each other. I want to get better, etc.

Is this difference cultural? Latin America, Africa are usually considered collectivist cultures, where the social interactions between people is highly valued. Where North America is more individualist - your own archievements are what matter. Does this mentality translate in the dancing?

What do you prefer? A place where everyone dances - but without much skill - no lessons for me type of mentality. But the dancing is so pervasive in the culture that you can go and find a place to dance anytime you want. Or a place where only those who can afford dance lessons can dance, but they do it really well?

I think this is really cultural difference. In Europe, learning how to dance was once upon a time considered important part of well-rounded education. And it remained as something people can learn as part of their education, except that now it is not as important. Even if you look at Russia, which is overrepresented at quite a few competitions, dancing is not a pervasive part of culture there, as in Latin America. Average russian does not know how to dance. But the ones who do learn how to dance, tend to have more lessons-based approach to it, even if they do not become pros.

[salsachinita]

..... doing "sombrero complicado al derecho al reves" or some other crazy LA trick :bouncy:

:confused: these sound like rueda moves :confused:.......

LA moves (as far as I know) don't have this kind of names........

[SurfSalsa]

My approach to this theme is: if you don't come from or live in an area with a culture where the particular dance is prevalent, you have to take lessons to learn it - otherwise you just don't get enough exposure to it - and ideally, you don't want to only learn the steps, you also want to learn about the music, the culture, even a few words of the language, etc (i.e. some depth).

But it is how you apply it that really matters. You can learn a million steps and race through them without feeling one after the other... or my view is that the more "moves" or routines or tricks you have in your "briefcase" (memory), the more you have to pull out and play with, the more your musscle memory can go on automatic pilot when you dance, so that you can apply different moves or stylings that fit the music or that you can apply as the music changes. I mean, on a given evening, there may be "moves" in your toolbox that you never use, as the situation (music, partner, space, etc) doesn't call for it. But another evening you may use that same thing ten times with eight different people.

I'm definitely learning and doing salsa in a lessons culture, hell even when I dance it in central Africa or in the Caribbean, but to me part of the thrill of the lessons is that in addition to extending my toolkit, I get more opportunity to meet and dance with different people, and plainly get more opportunity to dance a dance I love!

[smooth_criminal]

:confused: these sound like rueda moves :confused:.......

LA moves (as far as I know) don't have this kind of names........Yes, sure this is a rueda move, I corrected my post ;)

[BugBear]

I dance for fun. Ofcourse there is an occasional moment of joy when I get the new move right and the guy next to me doesn't, but that is not such a big thrill. :)
I don't think I would ever compete in dancing. Even if someone tries to make me to. I just don't feel like it. :p

[Chris Stratton]

My approach to this theme is: if you don't come from or live in an area with a culture where the particular dance is prevalent, you have to take lessons to learn it - otherwise you just don't get enough exposure to it - and ideally, you don't want to only learn the steps, you also want to learn about the music, the culture, even a few words of the language, etc (i.e. some depth).

If you learn from lessons or from the community you will learn very different versions of dances. For different dance styles, one path or the other may be more, "authentic" isn't quite the right word, but more "definitive" maybe. And even within the preferred method for a style of dance, there's probably such a thing as an extreme that goes beyond that. Street dances in some obscure hamlet's version, ballroom dances in some storefront studio's version.

[SurfSalsa]

Chris I agree 100% with you - the paths and the outcome would most definitely be different. The ideal is to learn the authentic dance "at the source" in the community, but we don't always have that luxury... in which case, I would rather do lesson-style salsa than not at all. We can only dream that in that context then we can visit (one or more, in salsa's case) the source community(s) to spice up / improve / correct? our style and interpretation of it.

Ha! Then you have the question of source. What is the real source? Cuba / PR? But what about the music and dance elements that came from Africa? I am currently seeing the most amazing styling and variations added to salsa in Nigeria, but technically that is pre-source influences ploughed back into the dance (if that makes sense?). [Almost like strewing strawberry cooldrink power on the glacier in order to get strawberry cooldrink eventually flowing into the sea? Crazy analogy, I know, but that's all how I could explain it]

But back to the thread's point, I know very well lesson-style salsa isn't ideal, and I would love to grow up doing the real thing (as opposed to learning it), but I'd rather do lesson-style salsa than none at all...

[pielcanela]

I know very well lesson-style salsa isn't ideal, and I would love to grow up doing the real thing (as opposed to learning it), but I'd rather do lesson-style salsa than none at all...

just my humble 2 cents:

I grew up -- surrounded by the real thing :) however I will rather dance with someone who has only seen salsa in a dance studio, than with some of my real thing buddies who regardless of the amount of feeling the music and soul they pour, still step on my foot, get dizzy after a turn or can't follow any more that simple patterns. I am yet to find someone of my soul buddies, the ones who like me grew up in a culture of dance -who does not go in aw when they see someone who has spends hours a week practice, dancing.

In a weekly basis I have the chance to dance with salseras who learned salsa in classes, and with salseras who learned through years of watching and seeing what their friends, relatives, uncles, etc did.

bottom line, the studio salseras simple just blow the other salseras out of the water in dancing. There is simply no comparison, and is clear for me who do I prefer to dance with.

I quite agree that putting your soul into the music is very important, and that there is a perception that the fact that you are Latino may contribute to how good you dance - I personally believe that my DNA did nothing to make my salsa better rather the countless hours of practice is what has made the difference.

I think considering lesson-style salsa somehow of lower class is a mistake, from experience I know that I dance a 100 times better since I started taking them.

no amount of soul will make untrained ( I do acknowledge that training does not only happen in dance schools) dancers produce a provocative, beautiful and pleasing to the eyes dance ... no more than technical dancers without feeling the music will.

A few months ago once I saw this white guy dancing and burning the floor in a Latin dance we had, I had a choice then, to dismiss his skill as robotic, soulless movements of a non Latin dancer, and continue doing my cucarachas, boucing basic, or go and ask the guy to teach me.

I did the last -- It changed my life :)

[brujo]

I think sometimes we are fooled by the illusion that people surrounded by a non-lessons culture don't practice. In fact, they probably practice more, the little kids I knew from La Havanna would battle each other at school in Reggaeton, and some of the girls I would talk to would mention how they would look in front of the mirror and practice all day. I also remember a bunch of puerto rican girls that I knew that would just put the music on and try to teach how to dance salsa. It was just around them all the time.

I don't think you need to be from that culture to 'feel' it. Here is a link of a guy from China in Cuba's Para Bailar Casino:

http://misterbryans.typepad.com/misterbryans/files/youfeihuo_prc.wmv

Again, like I said before, preference. I would prefer to be in a culture without a dance lesson culture, but that's just me.

[salsachinita]

Excellent point, pielcanela.......

This is getting back to the ol' 'nature vs nurture' debate.

In the context of salsa, however, I do believe a combination of both can proove to be most beneficial.

Having formal technique taught to you can make you a good dancer. Having an in-depth understanding of the music & culture can enrich your dancing & make you a great dancer.

Simply being a certain cultural group doesn't make you an instant hit on the dance floor, but neither will "all technique, no feeling".......

The whole point is to be open & adaptable. Both worlds have much to offer & learn from eachother ;) .

[salsachinita]

Thanks for the clip, brujo :D .....!!!

He is coooool :rocker: .............

[africana]

This is getting back to the ol' 'nature vs nurture' debate.

In the context of salsa, however, I do believe a combination of both can prove to be most beneficial. . Yes I think so too :cool:

[pielcanela]

ohh that guy in the clip is so cool,

[Twilight_Elena]

:shock: I saw the video, though it was a Cuban/otherwise Latin native guy, and the read the previous post. That's what assumptions do for you.
What I really don't like about cultures that have dancing as a part of them is that they consider anyone who isn't one of them to be soulless and meaningless as a dancer, while at the same time if you're one of them, you're supposed to have the gene. Such crap. Not all Cubans are good dancers, just like not all Caucasians are lousy, robotic dancers. That's like saying that only black men can play good basketball or that only the chinese can do good acros. Maybe they've got a tendency because of their culture or build or whatever. But it ends there.

Twilight Elena

[carrigallen]

I think it is not true that some cultures "don't have dance". Even america has a dance tradition - most kids learn square dancing and waltz in elementary school. Line dances don't require lessons. To say that Europe is 'not a dance culture' is not accurate - for example, in Ireland kids grow up learning the ceili, the contra dance, etc. These aren't lesson dances that you master, they are pretty simple and you learn as you go along..there is no formal technique to them. Also, many north european folk dances are difficult to learn..you can't wing it like you can in latin dance.

I think that the focus on taking lessons is more a contemporary phenomen than a cultural one.

This is a general theme of our times - the demise of amateurism in arts. People watch TV carols instead of singing/playing them at home. People watch "American Idol" instead of going to open mike night to hear a mediocre singer. And, people watch "Dancing with the Stars" instead of going to a local club.

[sara1011]

Here is a link of a guy from China in Cuba's Para Bailar Casino:

http://misterbryans.typepad.com/misterbryans/files/youfeihuo_prc.wmv


brujo, is he from China, as in born in China, or is he actually Cuban with Chinese ancestry? In any case, this guy had a lot of flavor to his dancing. I love watching Para Bailar Casino for this reason...that is when I remember to watch it.

This is getting back to the ol' 'nature vs nurture' debate.

In the context of salsa, however, I do believe a combination of both can prove to be most beneficial. .

Most definitely.