New Vogue Dances

[pygmalion]

Here's a question for our friends down under. Does any of you know about/understand the New Vogue Dances? From what I can tell, they're similar to ballroom dances and use many of the same figures, but are "sequence dances." Huh? Anybody? Looks pretty extensive. Oh and by the way, I think this may be another piece of the schottische puzzle.

http://www-staff.mcs.uts.edu.au/~don/pubs/vogue.html

[Larinda McRaven]

Sorry I am from the Northeast not down-under but I will pipe in.

New Vogue is very popular in Australia and New Zealand. It is like Sequence dancing, there are set dances and patterns, everyone is doing the same thing at the same time. But to me, Sequence dancing is rather old-fashioned, New Vogue seems to be rather hip and many great young dancers participate.

It is like American style in that they open away, have shadow position, and underarm turns. In fact Nick Kosovich was showing me some foxtrot patterns from a New Vogue dance one time and they could easily be turned into open American routines. Toni Redpath, I believe, used to dance New Vogue, and may even have a bunch of titles.

http://members.iinet.net.au/~annadv/waop261003/waop03217mixedp18.html

As I have heard, these dancers have developed fantastic musicality, they have the same routines over and over and every nuance is so sophisticated and highly developed.

There are several of us "smoothies" who have considered learning the dances and going on a big "field trip" down there and entering a competition just for fun. I am fascinated by it...

[pygmalion]

Thanks Larinda!

I honestly had never heard of these dances before, and found them by accident while searching for something else.

Now I'm really curious, so I'm diong some web searches. Here's something I found at dancers-archive.com from a discussion held a few years ago:


>Richard
>moroney@diva.berkeley.edu
callum.downie@brunel.ac.uk
Faculty of Technology, Brunel University, Uxbridge, UB8 3PH, UK
+44 895 274000 x2730
From: dks@ccsf.caltech.edu (Don Sinclair)
Subject: new vogue ballroom dancing
Date: 4 May 1993 04:27:42 GMT

having followed recent queries concerning new vogue ballroom dancing and
subsequent replies i thought i would add my two cents' worth.
first, as pointed out by others new vogue, along with old time (or olde tyme if
you prefer) and modern sequence dances are sequence dances, i.e. the steps/figures
are performed in a prescribed order, with everybody dancing the same steps at the
same time. the sequence
of steps is usually relatively short and is repeated
until the music finishes.

to understand what distinguishes new vogue dances from old time and modern
sequence dances it is helpful to know a little history of such dances. old time
(sequence) dances grew out of 19th century ballroom dancing, so many of these
dances are sequence versions of the dances done in the 19th century ballrooms
(waltzes, twosteps...). also, because of this they adopted the footwork of 19th
century and earlier dances with toes po
inted outwards and using the foot positions
of classical ballet. in england (as i understand it), when the modern dances
appeared earlier this century, they largely displaced the old time dances. these
were then revived at some later date. in australia, when the modern dances
appeared, they were simply added to the program. the most popular ballroom dances
from the 20's until the present were "50/50 dances" whose programs devoted roughly
half the time to modern dances and half to old time dances (with some
latin thrown
in for good measure). one of the effects of having people trained in modern
dancing, dancing old time dances, was that the old time dances changed. the most
significant change was that the balletic footwork gave way to the more natural
(IMHO) modern ballroom dance footwork with the feet parallel. in competitions,
the original old time dances with their balletic footwork were refered to as
english or edwardian old time dances. those modified old time dances with their
modern footwork were known
first as old time dances, then old time -- new vogue
dances, and finally became known as simply new vogue dances. once the styling
which we now call new vogue was recognized as a distinct styling rather than
simply a bastardized version of old time, new dances have been choreographed in
this style without ever having existed as traditional old style dances.

to make this posting complete i should mention the third type of sequence dances,
i.e. modern sequence dances. these are sequence dances based on the d
ances of the
modern (standard) international and latin syllabi.

in "strictly ballroom" i believe the new vogue tango in one of the opening scenes
was "la bamba" (bomba?), and in the public dances at the "pan pacific" i believe
i recognized the "gypsy tap". there was another "new vogue" dance in that scene,
but it was one i know less well and the clip was too short for me to make a
positive identification.

i hope my comments will help answer some of the questions that have been raised.
my history was based
on personal knowledge and deduction, hearsay and what i have
read. it should not therefore be taken as gospel.

don sinclair
dks@hep.anl.gov

[MadamSamba]

Hey, Jenn...I can help with this one. According to one site "New Vogue comprises sequence dances of Australian origin set to various rhythms involving the quick waltz, foxtrot, tango and march time. There are currently 16 New Vogue Championship dances."
That's the technical explanation, mine is simply that they're soooo much fun and while the dances are based on old time English dances, I believe they were "re-jigged" to move with the times because colonial Australians found the old English dances a wee bit stuffy and made them funkier (for the mid 1700s, that is).
Some contain elegant but, through modern eyes (or latin-dancing ones) extremely ostentatious moves, with gigantic flourishes and wrist flicks and things like that, but overall they're fabulously fun and enjoyable and always sequenced. Some, like the Merrilyn and Carousel are fabulously "pretty", others like the Mayfair Quickstep are so much fun! La Bomba is dramatic and Tangoette is gorgeous.
The good bit about New Vogue is that the range of music you can dance to is enormous, from The Bum Song (Cheeky Girls) to that classic Roger Miller ditty, King of the Road.
A lot of Australian studios spend the vast majority of a social night with New Vogue dances on the menu...have a look at this weekly schedule, from one Australian dance studio.

1 Evening 3 Step (NV)
2 Modern Waltz
3 Cha Cha Cha
4 Prog. Barn Dance
5 Prog. Cha Cha
6 Prog. Jive
7 Gypsy Tap (NV)
8 Tracie Leigh Waltz (NV)
9 Slow Foxtrot
10 Rumba
11 Excelsior Schottische (NV)
12 Swing Waltz (NV)
13 Rock n Roll
14 Prog. Evening 3 Step (NV)
15 Prog. Samba
16 Merrilyn (NV)
17 Tango
18 New Vogue Quickstep (NV)
19 Merengue
20 Barclay Blues (NV)
21 Jive
22 Alpha Waltz (NV)
23 La Bomba (NV)
24 Quickstep
25 Twilight Waltz (NV)
26 Samba
27 Carousel (NV)
28 Viennese Waltz
29 Balmoral Blues (NV)
30 Paso Doble
31 Tango Terrific (NV)
32 Lucille Waltz (NV)
33 Rumba
34 Modern Waltz

[pygmalion]

This sounds like a total blast! I wonder if there's anywhere in the US one can learn these dances, or if there are dance camps in Australia -- a week or two might be enough to get some exposure to the proper sequences. :D Note: I assume the patterns themselves are International Standard patterns, so it's just proper sequencing and special styling you'd have to learn. :?:

[pygmalion]

I found this link of 16 to 32 measure new vogue dance routines, approved by Dancesport Autralia. Pretty cool. These dances look quite doable with a bit of instruction, and if you already know some ballroom, even better. 8) :D
http://www.dancesport.org.au/newvogue/

[MadamSamba]

Hey, Jenn...I love that site and often print it out...only to get completely bamboozled and put the steps back in my folder.

It might just be me, but I can never understand dancing notation. I understand it in theory, but when I have to read it, I get all confused...or perhaps my brain just couldn't be bothered deciphering the steps.

I'd rather just learn it from someone, but I guess dancers outside Australia and New Zealand guys don't have that luxury...I'll see if I can find a video of the New Vogue dances and get it digitised and uploaded somewhere. It might take some time, but I'll look into it. Then you can all see what New Vogue looks like! :)

[pygmalion]

This is really intriguing. I bet I know most of the steps, at least for the ballroom-based dances. It's just a matter of understanding how the sequences work. Cool! 8) :D

[Larinda McRaven]

You could try getting in contact with Toni Redpath, Nick Kosovich, Keri Wilson, Ann Harding, Patrick Johnson, Wendy Johnson...as these people are from Austalia and New Zealand.

[pygmalion]

That's a scary thought, since I've never had coaching from a big name person before. But getting some high level coaching IS on my goals list for this year, so why not make the call? *tremble with excitement and a little fear :lol: *

[Auzzie_Dancer]

I do new vogue since me being australian and doing 3 styles ( other 2 ballroom and latin american).

New Vogue is about the same as ballroom, the rise and fall is a bit different and so are a couple of the moves from ballroom.

The thing about New Vogue is everyone is doing the same dance on the floor ( with different arm movements and such) but basically the same footwork so its easier for a non proffesional dancer can see who is better. (at least thats my interpretation of it).

It also looks great when everyone is doing the same thing and moving at the same time.

[pygmalion]

Hi Auzzie_Dancer. Welcome. I'd love to learn New Vogue one day. Maybe I can head down to Australia and visit you folks while there's a camp or something going on. :idea: :wink:

[ShyDancer]

Yeah Come on down to Australia pygmalion! Theres lots of places you could learn :wink:

I LOVE the new vogue dances.... I never miss the oppourtunity to do an Evening 3 Step or Merrilyn, and Tangoette..although Im not quite as fluent in that yet, but the stamping of the feet really is fun!
I am wanting to take some extra private lessons to learn the Tangoette and Gypsy Tap a lot better.

I think Auzzie Dancer gave a good interpretation of it. They are done in a large circle (sqaure!) around the floor. It is very pretty to watch even if you dont know the dance.

Thats another good thing..... no matter who your dancing with you know exactly which step is coming next!

[pygmalion]

I only have a vague idea of how they're done -- I've seen step lists and a few video clips. It looks like, if you can do standard/modern, you should be able to pick up New Vogue by learning the sequences and a little styling. Is that true?

[ShyDancer]

Yep Pygmalion :D ....Id have to say that I found the NV the easiest dances to learn. So with a bit of standard under your belt you will pick it up quickly.
The sequences arent very long either..probably get 2 or 3 full patterns thru one song.

[pygmalion]

I guess I'd better learn some standard then LOL. All I know is American style, but this is my year to make the leap to International. 8)

[dancin_feet]

I have grown up with new vogue, the first ballroom studio I went to was heavily into the progressive side of things and I learnt at least 10 of them. Still remember bits and pieces now.

That said, I would say that out of the three ballroom competition categories, it would have to be my least favourite. Just something about everybody doing a set sequence of moves, does nothing for me (though with it being a form of dance, I still love it :lol: ). Seems to fit more with the social / progressive side of dancing, rather than competition.

To me, anything you do progressively in a circle is a form of new vogue. We do some progressive merengue, jive, samba and other things at my current studio, and find it a lot of fun. Great way to get to dance with all the beginners and get to know their level before you challenge them to a one on one dance. Probably less threatening for them.

[pygmalion]

I can imagine it's fun to do, but competition would be a bear! I mean, how do you distinguish yourself in a field of competitors all doing the same thing? :shock: :(

[Sagitta]

To me, anything you do progressively in a circle is a form of new vogue. We do some progressive merengue, jive, samba and other things at my current studio, and find it a lot of fun. Great way to get to dance with all the beginners and get to know their level before you challenge them to a one on one dance. Probably less threatening for them.

Challenge!!? :? Come again! :?

[SDsalsaguy]

...how do you distinguish yourself in a field of competitors all doing the same thing? :shock: :(
I don't know... in my mind this would be the easiest for a qualified judge to adjudicate as they'd be comparing like with like after all. Then it's just a matter of comparing execution, artistry, and expression, etc., without having to account for unlike material...

Just my take on it...

[Porfirio Landeros]

In a conversation with Ron Montez last week, he said that American Smooth was the hardest style to judge because of range of diversity allowed in movement, steps, etc...

So, as Jonathan stated, I would think new vogue, or other formation-style dances, would be on the other (easier) end of the judging spectrum.

[pygmalion]

Hehe! I'm so bad. :oops: :lol: That might be why I'd prefer something like American smooth. You know the old saying. If you can't dazzle them with brilliance ... Just kidding! :lol: :lol:

[TemptressToo]

Don't know about a the dance...but the computer animations of each partners steps on that website were VERY interesting to watch. :)

[dancin_feet]

To me, anything you do progressively in a circle is a form of new vogue. We do some progressive merengue, jive, samba and other things at my current studio, and find it a lot of fun. Great way to get to dance with all the beginners and get to know their level before you challenge them to a one on one dance. Probably less threatening for them.

Challenge!!? :? Come again! :?

Usually I find a lot of beginners will not even try dancing with someone more advanced, because they are intimidated and very conscious of the fact that they are beginners. Dancing in a progressive fashion gives them a short burst dancing with everybody, thus increasing their confidence to "challenge" themselves to dancing an entire dance with someone more advanced.

Just my observations ...... :D

[ShyDancer]

Usually I find a lot of beginners will not even try dancing with someone more advanced, because they are intimidated and very conscious of the fact that they are beginners. Dancing in a progressive fashion gives them a short burst dancing with everybody, thus increasing their confidence to "challenge" themselves to dancing an entire dance with someone more advanced.

Just my observations ...... :D

That is SO me! Probaly the main reason Im so in love with the Evening 3 Step actually...its easy and you quickly get to know which guys you dont ever want to dance with one on one!! Some of them really throw you around! Being only small (5ft 3 and just 51kgs) it happens alot to me, and that makes me really nervous about doing other dances with advanced partners.


In regards to the NV judging .... this was a hot topic a few weeks back at my studio...apparently its very eay to judge, because you can easily pick out the couples that flow well together, the ones that arent in time with the music and which pairs have that flair. Most of them have their own arm styling and that is what makes them different.

[pygmalion]

Ah ha! So I was right in my instinct to stay away from those dances in a competitive sense. :wink: :lol: 8)

[dancin_feet]

Ah ha! So I was right in my instinct to stay away from those dances in a competitive sense. :wink: :lol: 8)

That's part of the reason why it is my least favourite competition style to watch. The judging is purely subjective to what the judge "likes" or "dislikes" because pretty much everybody's technique and knowledge of the steps is the same. It's really only the arm styling that makes each couple different. This was actually said in an interview with someone before the New Vogue section of the 2003 Australian Dancesport Championships.

[SDsalsaguy]

The judging is purely subjective to what the judge "likes" or "dislikes"...
I find this quite interesting as, to my mind, this style would be the most objective as a result of the like to like comparisons....

[pygmalion]

The judging is purely subjective to what the judge "likes" or "dislikes" because pretty much everybody's technique and knowledge of the steps is the same. It's really only the arm styling that makes each couple different. This was actually said in an interview with someone before the New Vogue section of the 2003 Australian Dancesport Championships.

So it's whether or not the judge likes the styling in question that determines placement? Yikes. I guess there must be a lot of political wrangling to figure out what particular judges like, huh?

[DancePoet]

Hi folks!

Went fishing for a thread on New Vogue dancing, and voila!

According to one source the dances are as follows:

1. March time Rhythm (50-56bpm) - Evening 3 Step and Gypsy Tap.

2. Slow Foxtrot Rhythm (28-32bpm) - Merrilyn, Charmaine, Carousel, Barclay Blues, and Ecxelsior Scottische.

3. Tango Rhythm (28-32bpm) - Tangoette, La Bomba, and Tango Terrific.

4. Viennese Waltz Rhythm (48-52 bpm) - This is also referred to as New Vogue Waltz Rhythm...Parma Waltz, Lucille Waltz, Swing Waltz, Tracie-Leigh Waltz, and Twilight Waltz.


My questions:

A. Are those in catagory 1 like swing or jive?

B. Are all the others in catgory 2, 3, and 4 similar to the names of the catagories? (Slow Foxtrot, Tango, and Viennese Waltz)

C. To what extent are the individual styles with in the catgories different and how?

D. What happened to Quickstep and Waltz?

[ShyDancer]

My questions:

A. Are those in catagory 1 like swing or jive?

B. Are all the others in catgory 2, 3, and 4 similar to the names of the catagories? (Slow Foxtrot, Tango, and Viennese Waltz)

C. To what extent are the individual styles with in the catgories different and how?

D. What happened to Quickstep and Waltz?

Answer to A. No its not, listen to the song Uptown Girl by westlife..you can count the 1,2,3,4 and thats the march rhythm. Loads of fun!

B. Yes, the only difference is the BPM in Tango and Viennese Waltz... Tango is danced at 33 at international level, NV is danced slighty slower. Same for Viennese Waltz.

C. Individual styles come with the arm and Head actions. As long as you keep your actions in time with the music you can use them however you like. You can time them with your feet or with the music...EG: With Carousel you take a forward step into a lunge as a slow count, you can either use your arm in time with your feet on the slow count bringing it in then out, OR you can time it with the musics Quick count, in, out, in.. Its all a personal choice for the couple.

D. There are some Quickstep rhythms although these arent done at competitions. I have never heard of Wlatz at all...

[DancePoet]

Answer to A. No its not, listen to the song Uptown Girl by westlife..you can count the 1,2,3,4 and thats the march rhythm. Loads of fun!

Hmmm .. you mean by Billy Joel?

B. Yes, the only difference is the BPM in Tango and Viennese Waltz... Tango is danced at 33 at international level, NV is danced slighty slower. Same for Viennese Waltz.

And Foxtrot, too?

C. Individual styles come with the arm and Head actions. As long as you keep your actions in time with the music you can use them however you like. You can time them with your feet or with the music...EG: With Carousel you take a forward step into a lunge as a slow count, you can either use your arm in time with your feet on the slow count bringing it in then out, OR you can time it with the musics Quick count, in, out, in.. Its all a personal choice for the couple.

I was refering to the differences between the dance styles with in the catgories, not the dancers' style. ;)

D. There are some Quickstep rhythms although these arent done at competitions. I have never heard of Waltz at all...

Hmmm ... I wonder why these two have been left out?

[ShyDancer]

Hmmm .. you mean by Billy Joel?



Nope. Westlife have rerecorded it and the tempo is slightly faster..



And Foxtrot, too?


Nope thats danced at 28-32 bpm..


I was refering to the differences between the dance styles with in the catgories, not the dancers' style. ;)


Sorry :lol: Misunderstood the Q.
Its a mix really...some of the steps are taken directly from the corresponding dances, twinkles, weaves, outside changes and some are made up espescially for the NV as a lot of it is danced in shadow and semi shadow hold.



Hmmm ... I wonder why these two have been left out?

No idea on that one :? [/quote]

[ShyDancer]

Just searching for some New Vogue info through Google and what should I find but this? :lol:


RE: The Waltz and Quickstep being omitted from competition ..there are quite a few Quickstep and Waltz dances out there, they are just not done in competition, apparently the reasons (depending on who you ask!) is that they already have Waltz and Quickstep rhythms in Standard competition and there isnt much room to change the timing to make them unique enough like they can do for the other rhythms.
Also the fact that there are 15 Championship NV dances compared to the 5 dances required in the other 2 style. Some people think its unfair to have to learn, and be very good at, more than 15 dances.
Fair Call I guess.

[Sol]

Can anyone tell me if the Alpha Waltz is an Australian NV dance or an English Old Time dance or whatever.

Thanks

Sol

[tangotime]

After reading most of the responses ,it surprises me of the amount of interest. Was raised on "old time ", and it is one of the best groundings for discipline in b/room . The majority of the dances are in sequence but there are those that have more freestyle . There are tech. books like in mod. and latin, that are available . Sequence is still huge in the u.k. and new dances are added to the " library " very frequently ( this is quite extensive ). It is now called ," Classical Sequence " . They are far more updated ,than the ones that have existed from pre war times..A good analogy between n.v. and eng. seq. might be like mambo versus salsa . same root, different take on things , but essentially a rose by any other name . As to the judging q-- it is always easier to judge like by like, as a standard has been set , and all judges are using the same " yardstick " .( p.s., have pro. friends in ariz. who taught mod. seq. in their school for yrs , maybe still do )

[QPO]

Can anyone tell me if the Alpha Waltz is an Australian NV dance or an English Old Time dance or whatever.

Thanks

Sol

Hello from "down-under"

I don't know if you have got a response to your question yet but the Alpha Waltz is from 1969 so hardly an "old time English sequence" It is danced to an 30 Bpm piece of music.

Hope that this answers your question

Cheers

Jacques

[waltzgirl]

Welcome to DF, QPO!

Thanks for answering the question. I hope you'll stick around to take part in other discussions too.

[latingal]

Yes, welcome to DF QPO! Happy to have you aboard!

[SDsalsaguy]

Welcome to DF QPO/Jacques! :cheers:

[meow]

Although New Vogue is considered to be the easiest style by some, it is actually one of the hardest to win.
When you consider that the basic steps are the same, it is then the 'technique' that is judged and the personal 'style' and 'interpretation' that the dancers must project.
Yes, the basic routines are easy to learn. It is the technical control and 'flair' that is the difficult part. So, at a competition level, one must work very hard - the top New Vogue dancers put the same work level into it as they would for any other style.

[mummsie]

I can imagine it's fun to do, but competition would be a bear! I mean, how do you distinguish yourself in a field of competitors all doing the same thing? :shock: :(
Hi - my husband and I specalise in competitive New Vogue as do both my children with their partners. We also dance standard. The way to distinguish yourself in a floor of people doing the same dance it to make sure your foot work, feet positions and top line is good. You can certainly tell the people who know their stuff from the others on any dancefloor. :-) Even in the lower grades where no arm styling or open positions are allowed you can tell the people who have good technique. BTW its very hard work. We dance level 4 and also dance open (level 5). We often have the same dances for both events and we have different arms and body position - can make it very tricky if you forget :-) If you have anything specific to ask - ask away except I won't be around now until the New Year. Our work closes for the break. Mummsie

[SwingWaltz]

D. What happened to Quickstep and Waltz?

Quickstep: New Vogue Quickstep & Mayfair Quickstep

Waltz: Alpha Waltz

None of these are championship/competition dances, but they are done a lot socially because of the ease and fun.

I'm definitely a New Vogue lover.

[Lioness]

I have watched NV on youtube before but is there no open choreo in it??? hope i dont offend anyone but i truly am curious... doesn't it get boring for the competitor (and spectators for that matter) at higher levels??

Hey ^^

There isn't any open choreo in it, however each competitor is free to interpret the dance how they wish. Often competitors will have different arm stylings, different rubato, and in the case of the La Bomba, a (seemingly) different ending.

The joy of watching New Vogue is, I suppose, seeing the difference in interpretation, and also seeing the smoothness and togetherness that each couple possesses.

Each dance is easy to learn, but incredibly difficult to master. It's good watching the different stages of mastery.

[TinyDancer109]

thanks for responding, Lioness! Do you tend to see a lot of couples emulate each other if they like one another's style??

[Lioness]

There are occasionally similarities between couples who attend the same studio/take lessons from the same instructor, but it's still rare, because if your arm styling is too similar to someone else's, you don't stand out as much.

In the lower levels, it's much more common. Pretty much every bronze competitor has the same arms for Merrilyn, and no arms for Tangoette, Carousel, etc.
At higher levels, they've got more leeway with the holds, and everyone interprets the dance differently.

[mummsie]

Hi Tiny, I will add my bit. We dance Open New Vogue so we are unrestricted with what we do with our arms but our footwork and feet positions must be by the book - there are 2 books used - Ross Heskith and Neville Boyd O.B.E. Ross Heskith's footwork is much the same as Neville Boyd's but there are a couple of subtle differences. You can mix and match. My teacher follows Neville's book about 95%.

If our teacher is judging at a comp which she does regularly and sees a particular arm styling she likes, she may give it to us if it improves what we are currently doing or she will use it as an idea to make a small change. Often times, what we do is what just feels natural. We try not to look too forced in what we are doing.

As Lioness said in the lower grades there is not much room for individual expression but at this level it certainly shows who knows their footwork and technique. :) mummsie

[TinyDancer109]

thanks for sharing! ::adds NV to list of bucket list styles to learn::

[MissKitty]

New Vogue is very popular here in New Zealand....we dance it, along with Standard and Latin. I can answer any questions you have, the best I can!