dance group

[Salsero_AT]

2 weeks ago some salsa freaks (including me ;) ) decided to form a rueda de casino dance group here in vienna. We want to perform in April when there is a dance competition here in Vienna to show people some other form of latin dance :).
We have met 2 times already and started to train and i am very positive about it.
Does anyone of you have some experience with dance groups and would like to share some tips ?

[pygmalion]

Hmm. Are you looking for salsa tips specifically, or would performance tips in general do? I haven't done a salsa performance yet, but I've been in a bunch of performance teams. Here's what I can think of. I bet other people can add more.

1. Make sure up front that everyone is really committed (pick your players carefully). Nothing can kill a good performance like people who don't show up for rehearsals.

2. Practice more sooner than later. Schedule more rehearsals than you think you need early in the process. Or else you'll find yourselves cramming right before the performance.

3. Choreography has to be symmetrical, or it will look weird to the audience. Get someone not in the group to watch from a distance and give you feedback.

4. Coordinate outfits carefully. Planning can make you look really good -- this won't necessarily require a lot of money. Just plan ahead.

5. It's easiest if people are at about the same level of proficiency. If you have some people who are better dancers than others, arrange your floorplanning so that the better dancers get the more challenging angles, etc.

6. Forget about lead follow. Everybody needs to know their part. Leads can lead, but follows MUST memorize their parts as well. If something goes wrong during the performance, evrybody should be prepared to save the day.

7. Matching, matching, matching. Absolutely the most important thing in a formation. Arms, leg lines, height of kicks, depth of dips, all stick out like a sore thumb if they don't match.

8. Choose music that has clear, easy to recognize cues. That will help people stay together or get back together if someone messes up during the performance.

9. Have fun! And try to form that team feeling from the very beginning.

10. Simple choreography done well is a lot better than complicated choreography done badly.

[SDsalsaguy]

Pygmalion's advice is all dead on! Having danced on a formation team for two years several of these items really stand out in my mind...

1. Make sure up front that everyone is really committed (pick your players carefully). Nothing can kill a good performance like people who don't show up for rehearsals.
Nothing can kill your group faster then having mismatched commitment levels! Everyone needs to realize that everyone else's rehearsals and performances are dependant on each other.

2. Practice more sooner than later. Schedule more rehearsals than you think you need early in the process. Or else you'll find yourselves cramming right before the performance.
Frequency of practice is even more important the length of practice... the more everyone gets used to doing your routine(s) day in and day out the more automatic they will be come performance time.

3. Choreography has to be symmetrical, or it will look weird to the audience. Get someone not in the group to watch from a distance and give you feedback.
Definitely! Make sure you have someone look at your lines from every angle where you will have an audience.

4. Coordinate outfits carefully. Planning can make you look really good -- this won't necessarily require a lot of money. Just plan ahead.
Don't forget matching shoes! It's amazing how distracting unmatched shoes can be in a group routine!

7. Matching, matching, matching. Absolutely the most important thing in a formation. Arms, leg lines, height of kicks, depth of dips, all stick out like a sore thumb if they don't match.
:!: :!: :!:

10. Simple choreography done well is a lot better than complicated choreography done badly.
:!:

[Salsero_AT]

1. Make sure up front that everyone is really committed (pick your players carefully). Nothing can kill a good performance like people who don't show up for rehearsals.

We met 2 times and trained for about 2 1/2 hours each time. Everyone seems to be committed. I hope it stay that way.


2. Practice more sooner than later. Schedule more rehearsals than you think you need early in the process. Or else you'll find yourselves cramming right before the performance.

We have planned to meet once a week now. The performance should be in April. Most of us meet each other at least 2 to 3 times a week for social dancing.

3. Choreography has to be symmetrical, or it will look weird to the audience. Get someone not in the group to watch from a distance and give you feedback.
One of us is not planning to dance with us but he films us with his digital camera and we can watch the videos on his laptop which is cool. It speeds things up considerably i think.

7. Matching, matching, matching. Absolutely the most important thing in a formation. Arms, leg lines, height of kicks, depth of dips, all stick out like a sore thumb if they don't match.

Yes you are right. We are into this right now. Last time we did only the basic guapea step and dame. Talk about differences between people ! Everyone did his own version of the basic step ! We are working on it ! :)

10. Simple choreography done well is a lot better than complicated choreography done badly.
I agree. I think we will not do too complicated moves. Also because the audience is not used to casino salsa and some simpler moves or some group figures are perhaps more effective than some complicated wrapping moves.

Don't forget matching shoes! It's amazing how distracting unmatched shoes can be in a group routine!

:)

We have not worked on choreography but perhaps we will start with something choreographed which will lead into a "normal" rueda with a caller. I think it is easier that way instead of a fixed choreography because that is what we are used to do. But i think if we do it that way the caller is very important to call an interesting mix of figures so we have to prepare for that.

Aahh so much to do ...... :shock:

[pygmalion]

Oh yeah, and have your folks start early on, becoming aware of where the audience will be. Become aware that you're dancing for/to an audience. It's easy to dance for yourself, and be unaware that people are watching. Imagine where they will be, and play to them, even in rehearsal.

[Salsero_AT]

Many thanks for all your tips :)
i will give status reports from time to time ;)

[pygmalion]

One more thing I thought of yesterday. Transitions. Meaning, the transitions between sections of your performance or your choreography can make or break your routine. Often, people have the step patterns, styling, etc, but the breakdowns come at the transitions from one pattern to the next or one amalgamation to the next, or at a change of partners.

[Salsero_AT]

I see. Yes i think that point requires special attention. I will stress that in the group when we plan the actual choreography.

I am so excited about it.... tomorrow we will meet again... :)

You know when i started dancing three years ago i would have never dreamed of doing such a thing :shock:

[SwinginBoo]

As far as choreography goes, while it is important to gather suggestions and imput from the group as a whole, the main choreography should be done by a few people. This is because it would take too long to choreograph a dance if everyone is trying to do it at the same time. With that said, there should also be one or two driving leaders of the group who guide the group towards their main goal. Just a couple of tips from this very newbie performance group member.

[Vin]

One tip I received for my last(and only performance thus far) was to work on supressing my foot styling during the times I was with my partner(as the guy). It takes away too much from the female's foot styling and alot of times forced us to take larger steps.
I second the points about transitions and choosing music with easy cues. Also make sure you don't pick a salsa with long periods of slow tempo(a la Mark Anthony). We wanted to do a Mark Anthony song and when it came time to choreograph it we were left with 30 seconds of boredom here and there.
Also it is great to practice in a studio with a mirror, we only found one towards the end of our practice time and it really helped us with seeing how to coordinate the dance towards the audience.

[Salsero_AT]

Also make sure you don't pick a salsa with long periods of slow tempo(a la Mark Anthony). We wanted to do a Mark Anthony song and when it came time to choreograph it we were left with 30 seconds of boredom here and there.

Perhaps we will use cuban salsa as it also fits the dancing style more but we have not decided yet. Perhaps something like Manolito y su trabuco.

[Salsero_AT]

As some of you have some experience with groups what do you think how many people is the minimum in terms of numbers ? We are 12 now but we fear that may be too less. One of us told us that in his experience one third of the people will not be at our performance because of various reasons but then we would be too less. What is your opinion ?

[SDsalsaguy]

Hiya AT... I think that even if 1/3 are absent that'd still give you 8 people which can be more then enough! Maybe you'd get even more of an impact with 10 people as that would provide you with 5 couples and be more visually interesting then the 4 couples you'd have at 8 people... but it's not worth it if the people aren't the right ones! Just like simple choreography done well is worth infinitely more then complicated material poorly executed, so too with group memberships! Sure, more people lend more immediate visual impact, but fewer people clean is worth far more then more people who aren’t as tight. Aside from the performance aspect itself though, this same dynamic holds true for your experiences and enjoyment… a smaller, cohesive group will b more enjoyable then a larger, more fragmented one. So, basically, if you have quality people to add then sure, why not? But don’t go hunting for or adding additional members just for the sake of numbers! That’s nothing but a recipe for problems…

[Salsero_AT]

Sound very logical SD.....
I will stress that when we meet again next week.
For my part i really enjoy it and i hope that it does not fall apart....

Thanks for your prompt reply :D

[SDsalsaguy]

My pleasure AT... there's a reason I'm the founder of the IRU you know! :wink:

[Salsero_AT]

I have another question where i hope to get some advice. Our training went well the last times and it is still great fun for me. I hope it stays that way :).
BUT... I have an important question: One of our female members does not quite have the level the rest of us has. She just sticks out and does not really dance on time. Now my question is: How do we tell her ? If she does not get very much better in a very short time (3 months) i think she should not participate in our performance. But we do not want to be rude or something, it is just that she just not has the experience and training the rest of us has.
What would you do ? Tell her now that we think she should not participate in our first perfomance and that she needs more time ? Or wait and see how she develops and tell her later ? :?: I would prefer the first solution.

What do you think ?
Thanks for any advice.

[pygmalion]

I don't know if there IS a diplomatic way to tell her, but my view is, if you're going to let her go, the sooner the better.

I've been in several formation teams with one very nice lady who just couldn't keep up. For financial reasons, the teachers wouldn't bar her from the formations, so we were stuck with her. What we ended up doing, since we were all capable, was matching HER, rathet than asking her to match us. If you can't do that in your formation, it's probably better to tell the lady in question that there's a problem, ask if she's willling to do extra rehearsals, etc. Perhaps she'll excuse herself?

Question -- how are you going to handle the empty spot if you let her go? Do you have a replacement in mind?

[Salsero_AT]

Well we have one lady who is dancing the man part in our rueda because we have more women than men, so if she quits that would not be such a problem. But my fear is that when she leaves that the guy who came to us with her will also quit.....
Today after practicing some of us spoke about it and our trainer said that he wants to talk with her about the problem. I would not like to exclude her now because of that problem but give her the chance to improve if possible. In my opinion the whole effort is a group thing and i think it is wrong to tell the least advanced to leave without providing a chance . There is always someone who has the most problems, where do you end ?
It is not easy... :(

[SDsalsaguy]

Is it possible for you to videotape the group and then have one person -- either the leader of your group or the person who is most friendly with her -- go over it with her and point out the visual impact of her not being in sync with everyone else? This would provide an objective, non-personal issue which she then has the option to resapond to as she wishes. Just a thought...

[Salsero_AT]

Is it possible for you to videotape the group and then have one person -- either the leader of your group or the person who is most friendly with her -- go over it with her and point out the visual impact of her not being in sync with everyone else? This would provide an objective, non-personal issue which she then has the option to resapond to as she wishes. Just a thought...
Yes that is a good idea. :) Perhaps that will make it more objective and easier for us and her to talk about it.

[hobrien]

One option for dealing with situations of various degrees of experience in a dance group is to have specific people do particular things.

When you are designing the Coreography you can have parts that everone does and be at an easy/intermediate level, and other parts that are more complicated and/or difficult that the more experienced people do, and yet more parts that are simpler or less demanding on experience so those less experienced can do those. So everyone is happy. :D

Obviously it you have already designed the coreography then this does not apply.

[Salsero_AT]

Hi hobrien !

Thanks for choosing my thread for your first posting ! :D
Your idea sounds good and is a good way to deal with it, unfortunately in Rueda de Casino we all have to do the same, because there is one who is the caller or "cantante" (singer) who shouts a commando and/or makes a handsign and all have to execute this commando. So this option does not apply to us unfortunately. :(

Thanks anyway ! :D

[pygmalion]

So, Salsero_AT, did you talk to the lady in question? How did it go?

[Sagitta]

Welcome to DF hobrien!! :D Look forward to having you joining us in the forums. :D

[Salsero_AT]

So, Salsero_AT, did you talk to the lady in question? How did it go?
We will talk about it in the evening today. I will tell you afterwards. :)

[pygmalion]

One option for dealing with situations of various degrees of experience in a dance group is to have specific people do particular things.

When you are designing the Coreography you can have parts that everone does and be at an easy/intermediate level, and other parts that are more complicated and/or difficult that the more experienced people do, and yet more parts that are simpler or less demanding on experience so those less experienced can do those. So everyone is happy. :D

Obviously it you have already designed the coreography then this does not apply.

This is an excellent suggestion for choreographing routines where people don't have to be uniform. It has worked well in a couple groups I've performed with. :D Welcome to the forums, hobrien. :D

[Salsero_AT]

So, Salsero_AT, did you talk to the lady in question? How did it go?
We will talk about it in the evening today. I will tell you afterwards. :)
She did not appear yesterday because she had to work into the night. And because Christmas and New Year is near we will have no chance to talk about it till January. :(

[pygmalion]

Oh. I'm sorry to hear that, since you probably had planned what to say. What a disappointment that youdon't have it resolved. :( Good luck, whenever you do finally talk to her.

[Salsero_AT]

Thanks :) We will do it at the soonest opportunity possible

[SDsalsaguy]

Thanks :) We will do it at the soonest opportunity possible
*Always* the best policy! Good luck.

[pygmalion]

Hey Salsero_AT. How's your dance gruop coming?

[hobrien]

Hi,

I am in a similar situation now, our group (currently abotu 20 people) is still in the forming stages, and we will have our doors open to everyone untill the middle of February or so. This is due to political reasons. The skill varies so much. From people who just started to another guy who has been to probably every Salsa congress in Scandinavia for the last four years is a dance teacher and has done several shows etc etc.

It is often not just the experience but the attitude of everyone that matters as some beginners can improve at a staggering rate.

Gentle encouragement works wonders to those who are less experienced.

If the group has a leader then he/she can just be god and make all the decisions, that everyone has to respect, no matter how tuff they are. Our group doesnt have that kind of leader, which is a little of a disadvantage.

Our main problem is we are meant to be a give and take group, you come and learn, and teach something new every now and then (if you can or take some other small task if you cant). But some people demand ( I mean the type that stand up and shout it) attention for themselves that is consuming all the energy from the group and they give little or nothing back in return.

What do I intend to do about it ?, well I am going to nail it on the head. Otherwise we may have no dance group left. I am taking them aside and clearly laying out the facts to them.

So what do you guys think !

[Sagitta]

I would check with some of the other people in the group first to make sure that your sentiment is shared, both about the people whom you feel are not doing their fair share and about the purpose of your group.

Addressing the issue:
You can lay out the facts, but be sure to do so diplomatically. Emphasize that the purpose of the group is to benefit from others, but at the same time also contribute in some manner to the group, whether it is by teaching a new move or (list some of the other tasks that people have done/can do). Then, ask them to contribute as well. Or, you could just list a couple of things that need to be done and ask them if they can help out. (Sometimes people are simply blissfully unaware, but are happy to help out when asked...)

[hobrien]

Hi Sagitta,

Thanks for your reply.

At first I though it was just me who though it, and I kept my mouth shut.
Then others have started to say the same thing. I cant say I have talked to all members but five(out of twenty) of them have expressed their annoyance, and I have only talked to those five about it.

I will be diplomatic, but something has to be done before it ruins it for the rest of us.

Thanks again Sagitta

[borikensalsero]

Hi Sagitta,

Thanks for your reply.

At first I though it was just me who though it, and I kept my mouth shut.
Then others have started to say the same thing. I cant say I have talked to all members but five(out of twenty) of them have expressed their annoyance, and I have only talked to those five about it.

I will be diplomatic, but something has to be done before it ruins it for the rest of us.

Thanks again Sagitta

5 out of 20 is already a lot, that to me, would mean to go ahead and diplomatically say something. Even if it is just 5 now, five will turn to 10 in no time.

[Salsero_AT]

Hey Salsero_AT. How's your dance gruop coming?

We are still working on it :). We had some heated discussions about some things but yesterday the training was productive again. Two weeks ago ( I was not there this day) people seemed to generally have a bad day and so there was a bad mood, but we discussed the issues last week and it got better again. Sometimes it is hard to separate a bad day from the training in the evening but we are still together.

We will have two little appeareances at the end of february, these will be our first ones. I am looking forward to it :)

[Salsero_AT]

Actually i have two videos of our last training on my computer, i would have loved to show them to anyone who is interested but they are each about 100 MB, and even after i compressed them with divx they are still 50 MB large. Does anybody know a good program to make these movies smaller ? They are about 5 minutes long...

[hobrien]

Hello Salsero_AT,

Go to www.google.com

Type in:
divx smaller

I tried this and I got some interesting results. One is trial tool for breaking up these files into several smaller files.

http://www.hot4download.com/Audio_Video/Easy_Video_Splitter_201.htm

Hope this works for you, I am interested in seeing your videos !?!?

Keep Dancin :bandit:

[pygmalion]

Glad to hear you're still together, Salsero_AT. People's nerves do tend to get frayed, especially as performances get close. I'm sure everything will pull together great. I hope we get to see some of your video, or at least some still shots. :D

[Salsero_AT]

Hello Salsero_AT,

Go to www.google.com

Type in:
divx smaller

I tried this and I got some interesting results. One is trial tool for breaking up these files into several smaller files.

http://www.hot4download.com/Audio_Video/Easy_Video_Splitter_201.htm

Hope this works for you, I am interested in seeing your videos !?!?

Keep Dancin :bandit:

Thanks !!
I tried you link and downloaded the program, and it works great.
So if anybody wants the videos i can send them via email.

[Salsero_AT]

Today we have our first performance ! I am excited about it and a little nervous. We will be 4 couples, and it will be about 8 minutes long. It will be at an event for elderly people, so perhaps they will not see our little mistakes ;). Wish us luck ! :)

[MapleLeaf Salsero]

Good Luck Salsero_AT! I´m sure everything´ll go well. :)

[borikensalsero]

Best wishes Salsero_AT!! You guys will do great. :D :D

[peachexploration]

Best of luck to you, Salsero_AT. You guys will do well! :D

[SDsalsaguy]

Good luck! :cheers:

I'm looking forward to reading all about it too... :D

[Salsero_AT]

Thanks for all your good wishes !!!! :D

It really helped... Everything went allright. Some of us were very nervous in the beginning but once the rueda started to flow it was ok. The strange thing is that i was nervous before but not during the performance, once the music started to play i really enjoyed it.

Our next performance is on Friday. So we have only some days and then we are at it again :).

Thank you all again :D

[SDsalsaguy]

Glad to hear it worked out so well for you AT! :D

[peachexploration]

Thanks for all your good wishes !!!! :D

It really helped... Everything went allright. Some of us were very nervous in the beginning but once the rueda started to flow it was ok. The strange thing is that i was nervous before but not during the performance, once the music started to play i really enjoyed it.

Our next performance is on Friday. So we have only some days and then we are at it again :).

Thank you all again :D

Yay! Good for you, Salsero_AT. :cheers:

[pygmalion]

Fantastic! I'm glad to hear things went well. :D

[borikensalsero]

WEPAAAAA.... You gonna have to perform for us next. :D :D

[Salsero_AT]

WEPAAAAA.... You gonna have to perform for us next.
Oh my god..... :shock: I hope we would not dissapoint you... :oops:
:wink:
Perhaps we can make a digital video of one of our performances so i can send it to everyone who wants it but we have only an analog video of our first one so this is not possible now.

[pygmalion]

I would love to see video of you performing. :D