Worse for Ballroom Dancing -- Master P or Len?

[Big10]

My internet access was limited over the weekend, so I've had to do a bunch of catch-up reading today on the downfall of Western civilization -- i.e., the continuation of Master P on DWTS over more "worthy" dancers....:eyebrow:

But is he really that detrimental? Do some of you really think that Master P's performances and/or clothing reflect badly on ballroom dancing as a whole? Personally, I think that it's easy to separate Master P from the other ballroom dancers. Whether or not one contestant dances badly (or allegedly "disrespects" ballroom :roll: ) can't have that much of an effect on whether people who are inclined to like ballroom dancing will continue to like it -- especially when there are so many professionals on the show to demonstrate the best of ballroom dancing.

On the other hand -- I would be more deeply concerned about the comments from Len the judge. Isn't he discouraging to the "average" person out there who starts with very little natural talent? Why would someone take continuous lessons if he/she believes that a failure to show improvement after a few weeks is evidence that "you're not a dancer" (the comment Len gave to Evander Holyfield last season) or that you will be ridiculed as harshly as Master P has been this season? We've all seen people who simply progress at different paces, irrespective of the endeavor, yet still reach a high level eventually. I think it would be more professional for a judge to criticize a person for failing to live up to potential, rather than stating a conclusion that the person has no potential at all, after just a few weeks of training.

People like Len seem to be spoiling an opportunity (on national TV) by perpetuating the stereotype that ballroom dancing is for a stuffy, elite clique to which some people will never be accepted, no matter how hard they try. What are your thoughts?

[saludas]

By Master P trivializing the hard work and sincerity of the pro dancers and the aspiring star dancers, he feeds into the mindset that will actively reject ballroom, by simply representing the average moron who prefers the class buffoon over the smart guy. It's certainly easier to trivialize the effort required to do any artform well, and perhaps Len might have pleased the 'average joe' by making it appear 'easy', but even the average moronic fellow would soon see that it is NOT easy and that 'anyone can do it'. Lying is never good in the long run.

Master P has been set up. he has no clue (or he's brilliant and will leave this show to host a reality show). He's been set up as the comic foil and the representative guy for all the 'haters' that love to point the finger at the arts and show what a 'real guy' looks like next to the talent. He is everything that Black America does NOT need to be represented by - the overweight, goofy clothes wearing, inarticulate, socially inept male. But, come to think of it, I guess that a lot of American males are that and feel that he is 'them'.

I certainly am NOT and am offended by this.

Haven't you all seen the smarter candidate lose in the high school election to the 'popular guy'?

[ACtenDance]

... don't forget he is doing it for all those hurricane victims and kids in the hood

... don't forget he is doing it for all those hurricane victims and kids in the hood

... don't forget he is doing it for all those hurricane victims and kids in the hood

... don't forget he is doing it for all those hurricane victims and kids in the hood

oops, did I repeat myself?

[Big10]

perhaps Len might have pleased the 'average joe' by making it appear 'easy', but even the average moronic fellow would soon see that it is NOT easy and that 'anyone can do it'. Lying is never good in the long run.
There's a big difference between emphasizing the work necessary to reach an attainable goal versus declaring that it's impossible for certain people to get there after seeing them try for only a few weeks. That's where I think Len is giving a bad impression. It might be remarkably difficult to be a championship-level competitor, but it's not nearly as difficult to be an adequate social dancer who is able to have fun on the dance floor.


He is everything that Black America does NOT need to be represented by - the overweight, goofy clothes wearing, inarticulate, socially inept male.
I keep trying to stay away from the racial aspect of this whole thing, but I won't deny that it seems to be an undeniable subtext to many comments I've seen here and on other Internet forums. At least you're honest about what you're thinking. In any event, I don't think Master P intends to be a representative of "Black America," nor should he be. He's one guy out of millions. Even on this very show, Jerry Rice exudes the exact opposite of all of those traits you mentioned, so why not focus on Jerry instead? (Not that he intends to be any sort of "representative," either.)


Haven't you all seen the smarter candidate lose in the high school election to the 'popular guy'?
Yes....and so? Is every school or every society better off if every election simply goes to the "smartest" candidate? Not necessarily.

[africana]

ahh you're PC was offline, that spared you reading some awful stuff stuff posted w/ regards to P's potential as hampered by his physical appeareance. but "they" deleted the posts

and now we're back to pretending (or trying to pretend) that the ballroom world isn't racist or culturally-biased, until someone posts more stuff on "Soul Man's Syndrome" or some similar crap

Good thing I hardly watch the show

[fascination]

ahh you're PC was offline, that spared you reading some awful stuff stuff posted w/ regards to P's potential as hampered by his physical appeareance. but "they" deleted the posts

and now we're back to pretending (or trying to pretend) that the ballroom world isn't racist or culturally-biased, until someone posts more stuff on "Soul Man's Syndrome" or some similar crap

Good thing I hardly watch the showrespectfully, mods are not facilitating denial of racism in ballroom...posts are deleted for racially inflammatory reasons as well as for other offensive content...and while in some small way a particular piece of what is actually going on here is lost, it is a piece that we decide DF is better off without, not b/c there is a desire to pretend that racism doesn't exist but rather b/c if a post has numerous expletives a well as potentially racially inflammatory undertones, we are going to eliminate it because it doesn't belong here....to characterize our decision otherwise is not only incorrect but, in fact also something that is against DF guidelines, and we only ask that folks read them and follow them...then we wouldn't have these issues in the first place

[smoozer]

By Master P trivializing the hard work and sincerity of the pro dancers and the aspiring star dancers, he feeds into the mindset that will actively reject ballroom, by simply representing the average moron who prefers the class buffoon over the smart guy. It's certainly easier to trivialize the effort required to do any artform well, and perhaps Len might have pleased the 'average joe' by making it appear 'easy', but even the average moronic fellow would soon see that it is NOT easy and that 'anyone can do it'. Lying is never good in the long run.

Master P has been set up. he has no clue (or he's brilliant and will leave this show to host a reality show). He's been set up as the comic foil and the representative guy for all the 'haters' that love to point the finger at the arts and show what a 'real guy' looks like next to the talent. He is everything that Black America does NOT need to be represented by - the overweight, goofy clothes wearing, inarticulate, socially inept male. But, come to think of it, I guess that a lot of American males are that and feel that he is 'them'.

I certainly am NOT and am offended by this.

Haven't you all seen the smarter candidate lose in the high school election to the 'popular guy'?

LMAO

[mamboqueen]

Personally, for me, if P looked like he wanted to win this (and evidenced by hard work and positive attitude), I wouldn't have a problem with him progressing. I have this little piece of me that thinks maybe he'll pull out all the stops and blow us away one of these days (well, I exaggerate a little bit...with his dance skills "blowing one away" is probably not a consideration). It just really irks me to see him stay on ... not for his dance skills....not like Kelly Monaco, who was really determined to improve from week to week...but because he now has this groundswell of support for some reason that is completely lost on me.

Big 10 - Do you think he deserves to win?

[Chris Stratton]

I don't think the specific problem has much to do with the amount of work put it in at all. Instead, it's about being open to adopting a ballroom mindset for dancing. P thinks of dancing like an average guy, and moves like an average guy - he's in his comfort zone for relating to the music and reluctant to come out of it for something new and hard to understand (consider he's probably never seen a guy with his build dancing they way they are trying to teach him to - wheras most of the other contestants can see their potential in the dancing of others) Yes, it would take some practice to learn to move in a ballroom way, but no amount of practice is going to accomplish that until someone actually has it as a goal and understands how they might get there.

Len may not be the most diplomatic ambassador for ballroom, but he does have a point.

[Infosaturated]

P was a last minute replacement so I don' think he pondered it deeply before replacing his son. He expected to be voted off the first week. Since then I believe he has put forth a sincere effort to learn and that should be commended.

Len is coming across as an elitist because he is portraying one. The judges are typecast and none are seriously judging ballroom because this isn't a serious ballroom competition. It's light-hearted entertainment. Len is just playing a snooty Simon and I think most people get that.

I think Mr. Miller is having a positive, not negative, effect on people's attitude towards ballroom and life in general. I think it's a good thing that he started off resistant, then decided to give it a go. While to dancers P's performance may seem horrible, to the average viewer I don't think it was. That is, even the average viewer can see that skill wise he isn't in the running, but, he did appear to have fun with the dance. Ultimately, the message is, you don't have to be a "good" dancer to have fun dancing ballroom style, or at least a loose approximation of it.

Miller having fun and doing it for Ashley will probably do more to convince husbands to give it a go than Drew's fancy footwork which most people consider well beyond anything they could produce.

[salsera_alemana]

P Miller ist not the problem here, the problem is his fan base, the people who vote for him to keep him in the competition. He might be much happier if he did not have to learn a new dance for another week.

If this was not a dance competition I would not care, keep him in for the entertainment... But since for the other couples, who train hard every week and give it their very best, this is about dancing, I find it extremely annoying and unjust that couples who are so much better than him are eliminated while he is still there.

But don't we see that in so many dance competitions that not the best couple wins but the couple who is closest or best friends with (one of) the judges? I am not referring to professional competitions but to other dance competitions in social dance circles. I have seen it happen so many times and each time I see it, it makes me mad because I hate injustice.

[SDsalsaguy]

I see where you're coming from SA. The issue isn;t that he's breaking any rules but that, as a *dance contest* the rules don't work. Well, that's abundantly clear. The show though is not, of course, strictly a dance contest and seems to be even less of one this time around. And you're right, this is like the 'audience applause' judging at some club
"competitions" (note that I put that in "s!). That, however, is partly what ABC is after, especially as the different celebs each atract their own fan base and therby boost raitings (and hence revenue). As a dance contest, it has already started to become a farce -- as good exposure for ballroom dancing, however, it is still likely serve a positive purpose.

[kansas49er]

P was a last minute replacement so I don' think he pondered it deeply before replacing his son. He expected to be voted off the first week. Since then I believe he has put forth a sincere effort to learn and that should be commended.

Len is coming across as an elitist because he is portraying one. The judges are typecast and none are seriously judging ballroom because this isn't a serious ballroom competition. It's light-hearted entertainment. Len is just playing a snooty Simon and I think most people get that.

I think Mr. Miller is having a positive, not negative, effect on people's attitude towards ballroom and life in general. I think it's a good thing that he started off resistant, then decided to give it a go. While to dancers P's performance may seem horrible, to the average viewer I don't think it was. That is, even the average viewer can see that skill wise he isn't in the running, but, he did appear to have fun with the dance. Ultimately, the message is, you don't have to be a "good" dancer to have fun dancing ballroom style, or at least a loose approximation of it.

Miller having fun and doing it for Ashley will probably do more to convince husbands to give it a go than Drew's fancy footwork which most people consider well beyond anything they could produce.

I am not a ballrroom dancer, and never will be a ballroom dancer. P's lumbering around does not inspire me to take up ballroom dancing. Just as many beginner swing dancers do not inspire me to swingdance. It is the good that is inspiring, not the crappy dancers. Crappy dancers make me think
I can never do it well, and if I will look like that forever, shoot me first. P is (or is playing) a stupid lurching man who takes his INDEPENDENCE and individuality as a joke. WHy do I say that? Because he is playing the bad boy rapper taking on the elite establishment. He cannot be an individual, but must conform to his image. If he was doing the independant and individual thing, he could put aside his persona. Don't see it. It reminds me of the sixties and seventies where INDIVIdUALITY reigned supreme! BE DIfferent! BE your one person. But Don't be square. Have long hair, do drugs, wear torn up jeans, live like a pig, whatever. Just don;t conform to the norm or you were an outcast. Individuality? HAH! Group conformity and rebellion. How do I know? I was there. I was on each side during different times. Believe me, Individuality was only condoned within the acceptable behavior. P? WHat a joke. Get him off the show!

[alemana]

SDSalsaguy - too bad you already have your thesis constructed. this whole Master P thing is QUITE the powderkeg.

[SDsalsaguy]

SDSalsaguy - too bad you already have your thesis constructed. this whole Master P thing is QUITE the powderkeg.
LOL -- tell me about it! Hmmm, maybe an article... :twisted:

[alemana]

(sadly, fairly predictably so.)

[SDsalsaguy]

(sadly, fairly predictably so.)
Too true. :?

[Infosaturated]

I am not a ballrroom dancer, and never will be a ballroom dancer.

Then apparently, neither good, mediocre, or bad dancing inspires you to give it a shot, which is fine, it isn't for everyone anymore than golf is for everyone.

The show is great because they cast as wide a variety of "types" on the show. All the versions seem to have an older man for example.

There's a babe or two, a few good dancers, a sports figure or two, someone from the soaps, a boyband type, etc. Some to gush on others to identify with.

I think almost everyone watching has a idea on how it could be better. I have tons. For example, I wish they would pair older celebrities with older pros, or at least older looking pros. Surely pros don't all vanish at 35 or under.

I "bought" John and Charlotte because of her style and he isn't that old. George and Etyda are seen as almost father/daughter. Jonathan is a very attractive man but he has a young look about him which made him seem like Giselle's gigalo. I think it is more difficult for the couples to "sell" the dance to the audience when they are so mismatched. I really admired Jonathan's strength and skills when he was paired with Rachel but the size difference was distracting when they danced (for me at least).

When I saw Jonathan with Anna, the effect was very different, not just because she is a pro too, but also because they are more proportionate to one another.

Although Alec and Kelly won me over last season with the whole smoldering passion thing she really was too small for him in many of the dances that required a close hold.

Anyway, point being, it's a fluffy campy show that I enjoy watching because I like dancing and like the soap opera flavor of the backstories and somewhat unpredictable results.

[moother]

Since I LOVE watching ballroom dancing it HURTS me to watch P butchering it. Since he can't do it or doesn't want to try or both, I wish his fan base would let him go!

[waltzgirl]

I think it would help everybody's blood pressure to just accept that most viewers don't know or care about dance per se. They vote for the person they like and want to keep seeing. I happened to catch "The View" when Master P was on. Despite the fact that they were talking about how he's not a dancer (implicitly accepting that he doesn't dance well), one of the hosts was wearing a "Vote for Master P" t-shirt. Most non-dancers apparently don't see any contradiction in that.

Of course, I have to admit I did the same thing the first week. I knew before the show that I was going to vote for Louis' partner, regardless of who she was or how she danced, because I wanted to see him come back!

[kansas49er]

Then apparently, neither good, mediocre, or bad dancing inspires you to give it a shot, which is fine, it isn't for everyone anymore than golf is for everyone.



Hmmmm... I was replying to several posts that thought Master P's awkwardness was possibly an inspiration to beginning dancers. Being well aware of how much work, time, and commitment it takes to learn, it is not something I am currently contemplating. And although I will probably never be a ballroom dancer, I still enjoy watching ballroom dancing. I also like watching dance contests. While it is true that often the best dancer does not win, it is often a situation where the winner and the next best are fairly close, or the jduges lose credibility. P is and has been clearly the worst. The fact that he is still on is a testament to his fans, not his dancing. This is supposedly a Dance contest, hence my dissatisfaction. I am well aware that is really entertainment, and not a true contest. If so, the call in audience would have far less to say about the results. It's all about ratings. Which is fine and dandy with me. No problem with that. The networks are in it to make money, that is why they exist. i still want P to go, and there is (at least in my mind) no justification for him to stay. Rationalizing it accomplishes nothing. But then, that is only my opinion. obviously not all agree.

[Big10]

Big 10 - Do you think he deserves to win?
Is Master P the best dancer on the show? No, far from it. I think I've said many times on this forum that his dancing has sucked so far. He has shown improvement though, and I think there is actually a possibility that he could eventually score higher than George Hamilton in a dance if they both last long enough (mainly because of George's physical limitations). No right-thinking person who has ever learned any dance techniques would give Master P a score above last for any dance thus far. The audience vote is different, though, and people have different reasons for voting for the Ashly/Master P team to stay another week. Many of those reasons are as unrelated to the celebrity's dance performance as the people who like Max's butt, Tony's face, Stacy's legs, George's tan, Lisa's lips.....oops, I got carried away there :oops: .... but you know what I mean.;)

Does he "deserve to win"? If he follows the rules, and the calculations eventually put him at the top, then, yes, he "deserves" it as much as anybody else on the show.


P is (or is playing) a stupid lurching man who takes his INDEPENDENCE and individuality as a joke. WHy do I say that? Because he is playing the bad boy rapper taking on the elite establishment. He cannot be an individual, but must conform to his image. If he was doing the independant and individual thing, he could put aside his persona. Don't see it. It reminds me of the sixties and seventies where INDIVIdUALITY reigned supreme! BE DIfferent! BE your one person. But Don't be square. Have long hair, do drugs, wear torn up jeans, live like a pig, whatever. Just don;t conform to the norm or you were an outcast. Individuality? HAH! Group conformity and rebellion. How do I know? I was there. I was on each side during different times. Believe me, Individuality was only condoned within the acceptable behavior.
"Put aside his persona" and then do what....conform to the ballroom conventions? Is that what he needs to do to become more "independent" in your mind?

I do understand your general point, and it sounds like we would agree that every culture/subculture has its own "norms." At least Master P is exercising some independence in choosing which set of conventions to follow. The hostility to that is somewhat understandable, but the degree of hostility is somewhat surprising.

[mamboqueen]

Tony's face, Stacy's legs, George's tan, Lisa's lips.....oops, I got carried away there :oops: .... but you know what I mean.;)

Does he "deserve to win"? If he follows the rules, and the calculations eventually put him at the top, then, yes, he "deserves" it as much as anybody else on the show.







I can understand where you're coming from on this. And perhaps I'm more open to the 'popularity counts' when it comes to something like American Idol, where I have no personal care about the outcome.

And for the record, while I go on and on about Max's 'assets', I think he's a great dancer, but I'm not sure that Tia has proved yet that she deserves the title, dance-wise, either. Although I could live with it if she won....

[DancePoet]

Does he "deserve to win"? If he follows the rules, and the calculations eventually put him at the top, then, yes, he "deserves" it as much as anybody else on the show.
I'm not sure these are the only two things that matter. If this is being marketed as a dance contest, and the guy can't dance better then another contender, then he doesn't "deserve to win".

And frankly, unless he significantly improves his performance, I doubt he will win. It is a shame he had enough votes to get this far.

[DancePoet]

My internet access was limited over the weekend, so I've had to do a bunch of catch-up reading today on the downfall of Western civilization -- i.e., the continuation of Master P on DWTS over more "worthy" dancers....:eyebrow:

But is he really that detrimental?
Probably not across the board.

Do some of you really think that Master P's performances and/or clothing reflect badly on ballroom dancing as a whole?
Aaa ... nope, his performances just reflect his inability to currently ballroom dance with any integrity.

Personally, I think that it's easy to separate Master P from the other ballroom dancers. Whether or not one contestant dances badly (or allegedly "disrespects" ballroom :roll: ) can't have that much of an effect on whether people who are inclined to like ballroom dancing will continue to like it -- especially when there are so many professionals on the show to demonstrate the best of ballroom dancing.
Perhaps. Yet if he really performs worse then another, does it make sense for him to be around for the next round over the other person who danced better? Yes, I know it is largely due to the way the voting guidelines have been established, yet this is a dancing contest, correct?

On the other hand -- I would be more deeply concerned about the comments from Len the judge. Isn't he discouraging to the "average" person out there who starts with very little natural talent?
Not if they are familiar with the way these types of contests are suppose to be judged.

Why would someone take continuous lessons if he/she believes that a failure to show improvement after a few weeks is evidence that "you're not a dancer" (the comment Len gave to Evander Holyfield last season) or that you will be ridiculed as harshly as Master P has been this season?
In answer to the first part, this seems to imply the audience doesn't know what is going on with this show. In answer to the second part, most people don't take up ballroom to do competition. ;)

We've all seen people who simply progress at different paces, irrespective of the endeavor, yet still reach a high level eventually. I think it would be more professional for a judge to criticize a person for failing to live up to potential, rather than stating a conclusion that the person has no potential at all, after just a few weeks of training.
This could be very valid.

People like Len seem to be spoiling an opportunity (on national TV) by perpetuating the stereotype that ballroom dancing is for a stuffy, elite clique to which some people will never be accepted, no matter how hard they try. What are your thoughts?
I'm not thrilled with Len's judging, but I am less thrilled with P's staying power particularly when he beat out another competitor who has danced better then P.

[Infosaturated]

I'm not sure these are the only two things that matter. If this is being marketed as a dance contest, and the guy can't dance better then another contender, then he doesn't "deserve to win".

And frankly, unless he significantly improves his performance, I doubt he will win. It is a shame he had enough votes to get this far.

It's dancing with the STARS, not a "Dancing Contest". Sure the basic format is a dancing contest but there is nothing to win but a very tacky oversized "trophy". The hook is seeing niche stars dance, not the dancing in and of itself.

That a lot of the dancing is actually good to the uneducated eye is a bonus. Take away the celebrities, or the costumes, or the viewer vote, and ratings would fall like a stone and the show would be cancelled.

If the couples were eliminated by skill it would be very predictable and there would be no point in voting. Jerry and George shouldn't be there any more than Miller because Giselle was clearly better than both of them too.

I am a lot more concerned about Jerry advancing than I am Miller because I am pretty sure that as the field narrows he will be eliminated. I don't think he will make the final 3. Jerry may well make the final 3, maybe even the final two.

But then, I am not voting based purely on dancing ability either. I am now rooting for Tia and Drew. My criteria is a mix of dancing and other factors, in this case, likability and potential to boost careers. I wouldn't mind if they don't end up being the final 2, but I don't think either should go before Jerry, George and Miller.

I suspect we may see Stacy and Jerry as the final two with Stacy taking the win.

I'd love to see Tia take the win but I suspect that while she is gaining fans, she doesn't have enough to take her to the top unless she manages the fast dances better than I think she will.

[Infosaturated]

I meant to mention that I think the key point is that the show is popular because it pulls in fans of celebrities that would normally not tune into a ballroom dancing competition followed by people wondering what all the hoopla is about. The show needs contestants that are viewed as being completely out of the element.

I suspect that Trista was the best dancer last year, and yet she was voted off first. People didn't object too strenuously because Evander was lovable. People were more upset when Rachel was voted off not so much because they loved her, but because by that time voters had polarized over Kelly worried that her popularity threatened Joey and John, which it turned out it did.

Someone noted that people who did not see the first show don't understand all the "hate" directed at Miller, and I think that is very true. He became "The Villian". With Kelly the attacks were based on her having posed nude in the past and her "rated X" costumes. Even when it was pointed out that her costumes were pretty much par for the course and that Rachel too had posed nude it didn't matter. Kelly's improved dancing and her fiesty can-do attitude overcame her detractors.

Miller is much easier to attack because of the way he talks and dresses and because of the nature of rap lyrics, but, the attacks are also causing a backlash because a lot of people are seeing him as nice guy.

The show has a participatory "soap opera" factor that attracts viewers. For example, a large part of my support of Tia and Drew is based on liking them and feeling their careers stand to gain the most from the exposure.

So basically, we can thank the P. Miller types for the success of the show which has raised the profile of ballroom dancing. Controversial characters and results are what create the watercooler buzz which is what drives the ratings.

[gusmahler]

The show has a participatory "soap opera" factor that attracts viewers. For example, a large part of my support of Tia and Drew is based on liking them and feeling their careers stand to gain the most from the exposure.

I don't think Tia has much to gain from this. She's washed up actress and was never a movie star to begin with. Because of her age, I don't see her re-starting her career.

Stacy probably has the most to gain. She's still young, but her acting career has never gone anywhere besides very minor movie roles and wrestling. The exposure here could lead to acting gigs later on.

Drew's career should also have a boost from this show and if he doesn't release an album before the summer, he needs to find a new manager, because he has to strike when he's hot.

[Joe]

Don't underestimate the number of "Wayne's World" fans out there. ;)

[alemana]

i am hoping the upcoming PBS airing of OSB will get a ratings boost from all the buzz about ballroom right now (including promos on ET, which have really surprised me.) it would be great if a celebrity-less dance tournament (the real thing in many ways) could pull decent ratings and get televised ballroom dancing back on the cultural map. i'm not opposed to the PBS show 'riding the coattails' of a gimmick contest - quite the opposite.

[cornutt]

"Put aside his persona" and then do what....conform to the ballroom conventions? Is that what he needs to do to become more "independent" in your mind?


I don't think that's the way KC49er intended it. Let me see if I can express my own thought on it in words that make sense:

There are two ways P could go with this. One, he could throw himself into the existing ballroom culture and learn to become a more-or-less traditional ballroom dancer, like a lot of other dancers do. Or, he could actually put some work into inventing what he talked about, "ghetto ballroom". Bring in some flava; incorporate a few hip-hop moves and see where it leads to. Use some imagination and see how the two things could be made to mesh. It could be the next revolution in ballroom dancing, equivalent to the impact that pre-Castro Cuba had.

But so far we've seen neither of these things happen. And that is what frustrates me about P. He's neither leading nor following, in either sense of that phrase.

[Another Elizabeth]

I suspect we may see Stacy and Jerry as the final two with Stacy taking the win.
This season, the last episode will pick a winner from the final three, not the final two (which should eliminate the problem that the judges' votes don't count in the final episode).

[Big10]

the way these types of contests are suppose to be judged.
Please tell me how "these types of contests" are supposed to be judged. I'm honestly curious. To be more specific, I'm curious about the judging standards for other similar contests where (1) the contestants are pre-selected by the organizers for subjective reasons (not random entries), (2) half of the dancers are dancing one style and the other half are dancing a different style, and (3) the judges don't even seem to have been given identical guidelines on which style of dancing the competitors are supposed to perform. Is there really any other non-televised dance contest like this one?

In my view, just like Infosaturated has posted, DWTS is a "dance contest" in only the loosest fashion possible -- and every single participant knew exactly what he/she was getting into from the very beginning. However, for those of you who are so uptight about who "deserves" to advance, where is your similar sense of righteous outrage over George Hamilton? There is no way that he is a better dancer than Giselle Fernandez, and a decent argument can be made that he wasn't as good as Tatum O'Neal, either. Yet he also survives for another week.....

[Big10]

I don't think that's the way KC49er intended it. Let me see if I can express my own thought on it in words that make sense:

There are two ways P could go with this. One, he could throw himself into the existing ballroom culture and learn to become a more-or-less traditional ballroom dancer, like a lot of other dancers do. Or, he could actually put some work into inventing what he talked about, "ghetto ballroom". Bring in some flava; incorporate a few hip-hop moves and see where it leads to. Use some imagination and see how the two things could be made to mesh. It could be the next revolution in ballroom dancing, equivalent to the impact that pre-Castro Cuba had.
I can't believe that's what kansas49er intended, because your interpretation makes absolutely no sense to me. Come on, now. :? How could Master P be expected to invent some sort of "ghetto ballroom" in his first month of dancing? (And, by the way, I believe the actual term he used was "Gangster Cha Cha," just for his first dance.) To create some new form of ballroom dancing, a person would have to be skilled enough in the basics of the common form, before being able to "revolutionize" it -- and it's obvious that Master P has only a marginal grasp on even the basics at this point. Plus, he's not even known for having any skill at hip-hop dancing, either. He's just a rapper, producer, and business owner as far as I know.

If anybody hates Master P mainly because he hasn't helped Ashly to create "ghetto ballroom," then that person has less of a grasp on reality than Master P had on the Cha Cha. :roll:

[cornutt]

OK, I'm done with this topic. And someone here just became the first person on my DF ignore list.

[Joe]

Woohoo! Is it me? Is it me?

[fascination]

the thing I love most about ballroom, is the presence of true gentelmen...thank you cornutt

[Big10]

Woohoo! Is it me? Is it me?
Well, obviously it's me.....sorry, Joe. :p Can't say that I've ever been put on someone's "ignore" list before, but there's a first time for everything, I suppose. All I'm looking for is some logical consistency in the positions that are different from mine, and I'm open to changing my mind if I'm wrong. This is a "discussion" forum, right? I just didn't see anything reasonable about the way cornutt described what might be expected from Master P as a newbie ballroom dancer, especially as an interpretation of kansas49er's post. Perhaps kansas49er can chime in at some point with a clarification about which one of us was closer to interpreting his original point correctly.

I thought my tone has been much nicer than many of the things I've seen in this forum during the past couple of weeks. Oh well. :-?

[mamboqueen]

Well, I think everyone has different expectations on what this show is supposed to be all about. Some people enjoy it more for its entertainment value, and others take it more for the "dance competition" aspect. So, I think you're going to get divergent opinions on the outcome of the show based on what people are personally "getting" from the show.

[fascination]

I dont doubt your intent big10 but I can assure you that cornutt was being sincere, perhaps not correct in your view but sincere ....some times really good people just get disappointed at not being taken at face value....I agree also that worse has been said....and I for one look forward to not having so much of that sort of thing crop up....

[smooth_dancer]

I never thought the viewer votes were suppose to be based on dance ability. I seem to remember the MC just said, "If you enjoyed watching couple x dance and want to seem them back on the show next week, call this number". I'd consider calling in for Master P just to see a typical beginner perform on the show again!

[mamboqueen]

Well, by the looks of it, you might have trouble getting through to his voter line!

Welcome aboard, smooth dancer!

[justdance]

You're right, smooth dancer, that's exactly how it's presented; "Vote for your favourite."

I love this show. I love the exposure it's giving to ballroom and latin dancing and I hope it continues for some time yet. I hope this style of dancing, as beautiful to watch as it feels to do, continues to gain popularity.

I also understand the frustration some dancers may feel watching the show in terms of the music selection, the results, etc. when you consider what training in ballroom and competing in competitions is all about, if you understand what I mean. I've experienced that journey and do understand. My father doesn't like to watch the show because he feels it doesn't represent the "real world" of dancing as we know it, and rightly so; it doesn't. Yet I just put all that aside and watch for the sheer enjoyment of the dancing itself. When all is said and done, to me any exposure to ballroom and latin is "good exposure", right?

[caityrosey]

I just hope that in 2 years or 5 years the people who watched the show will remember the dancing and not the other wacky show politics.

[smooth_dancer]

Yeah, the show doesn't represent the real world of competitive dancing, but it might be better! I once went to a college dance where they had dance contests that were judged mostly on audience applause. The results were certainly influenced by popularity, humor, and other factors besides dance ability, but the contests were much more exciting than ballroom competitions where the judges take a quick look and call out the placements. :)

[Big10]

I dont doubt your intent big10 but I can assure you that cornutt was being sincere, perhaps not correct in your view but sincere ....some times really good people just get disappointed at not being taken at face value....
Fair enough. If you know cornutt better than I do, then I'll take your word for his sincerity. If my response painted him with the wrong brush, then I'll apologize. Too bad cornutt won't see it. :mrgreen: I've just seen other "excuses" made for trashing Master P (similar to Kelly Monaco last season) that seemed illogical/inconsistent with how other competitors are viewed, and that bugs me for a variety of reasons.


I never thought the viewer votes were suppose to be based on dance ability. I seem to remember the MC just said, "If you enjoyed watching couple x dance and want to seem them back on the show next week, call this number".
Yeah, it seems to me that the vast majority of the time the host refers to each "couple" when voting, rather than just the "celebrity." That's why I think a lot of the votes are happening because of Ashly, as well as the entertainment value (however you choose to define that) of them as a "couple."

[justdance]

That sounds interesting, and yes, it could be better, I agree. And what a great post about hoping people remember the show for the dancing and not the wacky things. Very true. But there's politics in everything now, isn't there?
I can remember way back when my parents were training me in the medal syllabus and I was taking my medal test. The adjudicator that came to the studio to judge the tests grabbed me by the arm and said, "I was harder on you because of who you are." I was fourteen at the time, I think. My parents were respected and popular competitors in their day and as soon as I began entering competitions, whether pro-am with my dad, or later when I had my own partner, I always knew the pressure was on me because of their popularity. At that age, I didn't have the nerves to take that kind of pressure, and stopped competing in my twenties. I regret that now at times, but today I'm as happy as can be, still in our little studio, still working alongside my dad. Sorry for the useless trivia; didn't mean to ramble!

[Infosaturated]

I agree that Ashley has her own fan base. I am surprised she hasn't been picked up for a sitcom or talk show or something. She is very charismatic.

Backstory is very important, and watching P and Ashley together is fun. Last week when there was a short music change in the studio and P started "dancing" Ashley was so surprised it was adorable. Watching them on the basketball court was also charming. In a strange way Ashley is the Kelly of this season. They are very different people but they both have that certain something that gets people rooting for them.

[fascination]

Fair enough. If you know cornutt better than I do, then I'll take your word for his sincerity. If my response painted him with the wrong brush, then I'll apologize. Too bad cornutt won't see it. :mrgreen: I've just seen other "excuses" made for trashing Master P (similar to Kelly Monaco last season) that seemed illogical/inconsistent with how other competitors are viewed, and that bugs me for a variety of reasons.



"thank you I believe that is the case

[alemana]

I just hope that in 2 years or 5 years the people who watched the show will remember the dancing and not the other wacky show politics.


actually what i most care about is getting people into studios NOW. i have had SO many ppl ask me for studio recommendations and stuff as a result of their seeing the show, then meeting me and realizing i'm a dancer.

my perception is that it's working - my usual studio was so crowded on tuesday that i couldn't dance. that has never happened to me before, in 2.5 years.

[Big10]

In a strange way Ashley is the Kelly of this season. They are very different people but they both have that certain something that gets people rooting for them.
Now that is a totally different perspective that I hadn't considered. Perhaps Kelly was the hard worker doing the best she could with her own limited talents -- and Ashly is now the hard worker doing the best she can despite her partner's limited talents?

[DancePoet]

It's dancing with the STARS, not a "Dancing Contest". Sure the basic format is a dancing contest but there is nothing to win but a very tacky oversized "trophy". The hook is seeing niche stars dance, not the dancing in and of itself.

That a lot of the dancing is actually good to the uneducated eye is a bonus. Take away the celebrities, or the costumes, or the viewer vote, and ratings would fall like a stone and the show would be cancelled.
Ayuh, but like ya said, "the basic format is a dancing contest". *shrug*

If the couples were eliminated by skill it would be very predictable and there would be no point in voting. Jerry and George shouldn't be there any more than Miller because Giselle was clearly better than both of them too.
Good point!

I am a lot more concerned about Jerry advancing than I am Miller because I am pretty sure that as the field narrows he will be eliminated. I don't think he will make the final 3. Jerry may well make the final 3, maybe even the final two.

But then, I am not voting based purely on dancing ability either. I am now rooting for Tia and Drew. My criteria is a mix of dancing and other factors, in this case, likability and potential to boost careers. I wouldn't mind if they don't end up being the final 2, but I don't think either should go before Jerry, George and Miller.

I suspect we may see Stacy and Jerry as the final two with Stacy taking the win.

I'd love to see Tia take the win but I suspect that while she is gaining fans, she doesn't have enough to take her to the top unless she manages the fast dances better than I think she will.
Perhaps he'll make the final three, but if Jerry's dancing doesn't significantly improve hopefully not.

[DancePoet]

Please tell me how "these types of contests" are supposed to be judged. I'm honestly curious. To be more specific, I'm curious about the judging standards for other similar contests where (1) the contestants are pre-selected by the organizers for subjective reasons (not random entries), (2) half of the dancers are dancing one style and the other half are dancing a different style, and (3) the judges don't even seem to have been given identical guidelines on which style of dancing the competitors are supposed to perform. Is there really any other non-televised dance contest like this one?
In answer to your question, it depends on what the word "like" is being viewed as. If you mean exactly alike, well then of course not. However if you mean similar, then yes. Besides, perhaps I'm being misunderstood or unclear?

In my view, just like Infosaturated has posted, DWTS is a "dance contest" in only the loosest fashion possible -- and every single participant knew exactly what he/she was getting into from the very beginning. However, for those of you who are so uptight about who "deserves" to advance, where is your similar sense of righteous outrage over George Hamilton? There is no way that he is a better dancer than Giselle Fernandez, and a decent argument can be made that he wasn't as good as Tatum O'Neal, either. Yet he also survives for another week.....
Frankly, I'm disappointed with Giselle disappearing before George, yet this was a thread about P. v. Len, correct?

[DancePoet]

I can't believe that's what kansas49er intended, because your interpretation makes absolutely no sense to me. Come on, now. :? How could Master P be expected to invent some sort of "ghetto ballroom" in his first month of dancing? (And, by the way, I believe the actual term he used was "Gangster Cha Cha," just for his first dance.) To create some new form of ballroom dancing, a person would have to be skilled enough in the basics of the common form, before being able to "revolutionize" it -- and it's obvious that Master P has only a marginal grasp on even the basics at this point. Plus, he's not even known for having any skill at hip-hop dancing, either. He's just a rapper, producer, and business owner as far as I know.

If anybody hates Master P mainly because he hasn't helped Ashly to create "ghetto ballroom," then that person has less of a grasp on reality than Master P had on the Cha Cha. :roll:
I didn't read anything about someone hating Master P. Perhaps I'm confused?

[DancePoet]

actually what i most care about is getting people into studios NOW. i have had SO many ppl ask me for studio recommendations and stuff as a result of their seeing the show, then meeting me and realizing i'm a dancer.

my perception is that it's working - my usual studio was so crowded on tuesday that i couldn't dance. that has never happened to me before, in 2.5 years.
Whether we like P or Len OR not, the show really does seem to be bring interest to ballroom! :D

Last night I sat with two teenage boys watching the show, and at the end one of them is actually considering taking ballroom dance lessons. :banana:

(DP, don't get too excited, teenage boys can sometimes be rather fickle.)

Ah! But it is a break in the closed off attitude they had before to the notion of even giving it a try. ;)

[mamboqueen]

teenage boys are nothing compared to teenage girls!

[star_gazer]

teenage boys are nothing compared to teenage girls!Better yet...in ballroom, sometimes we have teenage boys dancing with teenage girls.

:headwall::headwall::headwall:

[mamboqueen]

God bless the boys for putting up with the girls! (And I'm just speaking of my own experience as a PITA teenage girl!)

[star_gazer]

God bless the boys for putting up with the girls! (And I'm just speaking of my own experience as a PITA teenage girl!)What is a "PITA teenage girl?"

[alemana]

PITA means "pain in the ass."

[star_gazer]

PITA means "pain in the ass."How have I survived three teenage girls without knowing that gem? I love it. Yes, ballroom girls can be a real...

[Medira]

How have I survived three teenage girls without knowing that gem? I love it. Yes, ballroom girls can be a real...
*ahem* ...challenge. ;)

[DancePoet]

teenage boys are nothing compared to teenage girls!
Ok ... teenagers in general. ;) :lol:

[DancePoet]

Better yet...in ballroom, sometimes we have teenage boys dancing with teenage girls.

:headwall::headwall::headwall:
Hmmm ... there must be an idea for a new thread in this topic somewhere ...

[loveytango]

Hi there! I am new you the whole forum chatting thing. I live out of the US but was in the States for 2 months recovering from a major hurricane. I got hooked on DWTS. It's marvelous! I love it! I love seeing people with and with out natural talent trying to do something that looks so easy yet is so very hard and take alot of effort. I am back home now and we don't get ABC. I can bring up the DWTS web page but there is no video and no results! Help be my eyes! What are the costumes like! How did each pair do! Who got booted off! THey have a few photos on the web site but they are not up to date.

[SDsalsaguy]

Hi there! I am new you the whole forum chatting thing. I live out of the US but was in the States for 2 months recovering from a major hurricane. I got hooked on DWTS. It's marvelous! I love it! I love seeing people with and with out natural talent trying to do something that looks so easy yet is so very hard and take alot of effort. I am back home now and we don't get ABC. I can bring up the DWTS web page but there is no video and no results! Help be my eyes! What are the costumes like! How did each pair do! Who got booted off! THey have a few photos on the web site but they are not up to date. Welcome to the DF loveytango! :D

One of our members, rpungin, keeps a fantastic blog going that even includes clips of all the dancing and judges' comments!

You can check it out at: http://journals.rpungin.fotki.com/dance/entry/wttfkgqwtst/

HTH :cool:

[salsera_alemana]

Welcome to the DF loveytango! :D


You can check it out at: http://journals.rpungin.fotki.com/dance/entry/wttfkgqwtst/

HTH :cool:

This site is great!!! I got all exited and downloaded Tia's tango. Now I cannot play it because the .RM extension is not a Windows Media Player format. How can I play those videos???

[Medira]

This site is great!!! I got all exited and downloaded Tia's tango. Now I cannot play it because the .RM extension is not a Windows Media Player format. How can I play those videos???
You'll need RealPlayer (-http://www.real.com)

[delamusica]

i am hoping the upcoming PBS airing of OSB will get a ratings boost from all the buzz about ballroom right now (including promos on ET, which have really surprised me.) it would be great if a celebrity-less dance tournament (the real thing in many ways) could pull decent ratings and get televised ballroom dancing back on the cultural map. i'm not opposed to the PBS show 'riding the coattails' of a gimmick contest - quite the opposite.


Too bad they're not showing commercials during DWTS advertising OSB . . . if they don't, I doubt that DWTS will have any effect on the viewership of OSB.

[salsera_alemana]

Too bad they're not showing commercials during DWTS advertising OSB . . . if they don't, I doubt that DWTS will have any effect on the viewership of OSB.

For those of us who are not that much into TV shows, what is OSB?

[star_gazer]

For those of us who are not that much into TV shows, what is OSB?I might not have known what a PITA is...but OSB is Ohio Star Ball

[SDsalsaguy]

I might not have known what a PITA is...but OSB is Ohio Star Ball
And segments of it will be showing on PBS as "American Ballroom Challenge," in two parts, on Feb. 1 and Feb. 8

HTH

[fascination]

watch for sound asleep fascination in the first few rows of seats:rolleyes: (not the floor seats)...slept through most of it

[Big10]

In answer to your question, it depends on what the word "like" is being viewed as. If you mean exactly alike, well then of course not. However if you mean similar, then yes. Besides, perhaps I'm being misunderstood or unclear?
Well, if I misunderstood something, then it was at least unclear to me. :) Here is my two-fold question then -- what other contests are "similar" to DWTS (other than the televised versions in different countries), and how are those contests "supposed" to be judged?


Frankly, I'm disappointed with Giselle disappearing before George, yet this was a thread about P. v. Len, correct?
Well, this thread has gone in multiple directions, needless to say. :p The only reason I mentioned George was for the issue of whether any particular competitor might "deserve to win" -- which was first mentioned by mamboqueen, later addressed by me, and also addressed by you. None of the competitors ever expected this "contest" to be purely decided by skill and everybody knew the rules from the beginning. So I still hold the belief that any participant who was invited by the producers and has the highest ranking at the end of the season "deserves" the final victory.


I didn't read anything about someone hating Master P. Perhaps I'm confused?
Not necessarily in this thread, but the vitriol for Master P has been voiced many times in this forum, as well as other Internet forums.

[DancePoet]

Hi there! I am new you the whole forum chatting thing. I live out of the US but was in the States for 2 months recovering from a major hurricane. I got hooked on DWTS. It's marvelous! I love it! I love seeing people with and with out natural talent trying to do something that looks so easy yet is so very hard and take alot of effort. I am back home now and we don't get ABC. I can bring up the DWTS web page but there is no video and no results! Help be my eyes! What are the costumes like! How did each pair do! Who got booted off! THey have a few photos on the web site but they are not up to date.
Hi loveytango!

Welcome to Dance-Forums! The best palce to be for dancing info and conversation in the world! :D

Hope you enjoy and kind find our site helpful to you as well.

[DancePoet]

Well, if I misunderstood something, then it was at least unclear to me. :) Here is my two-fold question then -- what other contests are "similar" to DWTS (other than the televised versions in different countries), and how are those contests "supposed" to be judged?

Other dance contests are similar to this and the similarities are far greater than I have time to review at the moment, but I encourage you to find an opportunity to view other dance contests, and I'm sure you will discover some. ;)

"Suppose to be judged" I'm sure will vary depending on who you talk with regarding this subject. However, how do you mean Len would be "discouraging to the "average" person out there who starts with very little average talent"?

[waltzgirl]

I thought "So You Think You Can Dance" had a better judging system. The pros ranked the contestants, and viewers could vote between the bottom two. It wasn't perfect in terms of basing the results purely on the dancing. Once, a good dancer who nobody liked had a bad night and got in the bottom two, and he was voted off, though he may have been the best dancer on the show. But in general, that system weeded out the weaker dancers and protected the better dancers from being voted off early.

[Bradamant]

I thought "So You Think You Can Dance" had a better judging system. The pros ranked the contestants, and viewers could vote between the bottom two. It wasn't perfect in terms of basing the results purely on the dancing. Once, a good dancer who nobody liked had a bad night and got in the bottom two, and he was voted off, though he may have been the best dancer on the show. But in general, that system weeded out the weaker dancers and protected the better dancers from being voted off early.

That part of the judging on that show, I liked. I didn't like the fact that it went by the couples -- i.e. a really good man or woman would be paired with a terrible partner and end up in the bottom couples. THEN, they always insisted one woman and one man be voted off each week: a few weeks ALL the women in the bottom were good and landed there b/c of their partners. Of course, one good woman was then voted off. That was frustrating. Of course, that wouldn't be a problem with DWTS.

[waltzgirl]

That part of the judging on that show, I liked. I didn't like the fact that it went by the couples -- i.e. a really good man or woman would be paired with a terrible partner and end up in the bottom couples. THEN, they always insisted one woman and one man be voted off each week: a few weeks ALL the women in the bottom were good and landed there b/c of their partners. Of course, one good woman was then voted off. That was frustrating. Of course, that wouldn't be a problem with DWTS.

You're right. I forgot about that. I also thought picking the dance styles out of a hat wasn't a good idea, since some people ended up dancing the same thing several weeks in a row. Good for the lyrical dancers who got lyrical every week, tough on the break dancer who got ballroom dances every week.

[Bradamant]

tough on the break dancer who got ballroom dances every week.

Oh yeah. That poor kid! He had reaaalllly bad luck with his picks. QS, Paso, and a couple of others . . .

[Joe]

You'll need RealPlayer (-http://www.real.com)
Real Alternative.

[salsera_alemana]

And segments of it will be showing on PBS as "American Ballroom Challenge," in two parts, on Feb. 1 and Feb. 8

HTH

SD,
Thanks for the tip. I will mark it in my calendar. I really wish I could watch more dance contests, ballroom dancing on TV but since I hardly watch TV I don't know when they are on and on what channel. Any other tips for dancing on TV??

[pygmalion]

I think there's a whole thread on the topic. Hmm. I'llhave to search for it and may not find it. But I could swear it's here somewhere. :?

[pygmalion]

Dang! The search function didn't help. But I know the thread exists. Does anybody remember what it was called? :?

I'm getting ready to crash for the day. But somebody remind me to look for it tomorrow. :)

[SDsalsaguy]

SD,
Thanks for the tip. I will mark it in my calendar. I really wish I could watch more dance contests, ballroom dancing on TV but since I hardly watch TV I don't know when they are on and on what channel. Any other tips for dancing on TV??
My pleasure SA but, unfortunately, I don't know of any others. Real ballroom comps really don;t get airtime in the USA... :?

[Big10]

Other dance contests are similar to this and the similarities are far greater than I have time to review at the moment, but I encourage you to find an opportunity to view other dance contests, and I'm sure you will discover some. ;)

"Suppose to be judged" I'm sure will vary depending on who you talk with regarding this subject. However, how do you mean Len would be "discouraging to the "average" person out there who starts with very little average talent"?
All I wanted was an explanation of your own statement using your own words, and yet all I get is just another question in return :? .....if you are not a politician now, then I am guessing that you must have been one in a previous life! :p

My problem with Len is that he is now the most recognizable "face" of ballroom dancing to the non-dancing public in his capacity as head judge, and he went beyond mere dance critiques to declare Evander Holyfield and Master P as essentially incapable of being ballroom dancers no matter how hard they might work in the future -- and, in my opinion, those two men's abilities are much closer to the "average" man who might get into dancing either reluctantly (e.g., pressured by a significant other) or on a lark. Carrie Ann made a similar comment to Kelly early last season, but has never been as personally harsh since that time. Len comes across as very elitist and unwelcoming. Honestly, some of the Internet comments I have seen do not make his attitude appear very far from the norm in the ballroom world, either. Any positive public image given to ballroom is more likely to come more from the participation of energetic, fun personalities like Stacy, Drew, Jerry, and Ashly, rather than Len.

[randomMysh]

[Len] went beyond mere dance critiques to declare Evander Holyfield and Master P as essentially incapable of being ballroom dancers no matter how hard they might work in the future

I don't remember what he said about Evander, but as far as his criticism of P goes, that's not what I got out of Len's comments, personally. I took his comments to mean that P will not become a good ballroom dancer, not no matter how hard he tries, but because he does not try at all, relatively speaking. Which is a fact that even you couldn't debate, not after the comparative hours of practice were revealed. What bothered me the most about P is that he talked of giving 150% and being a positive role model, yet he clearly did not put in the effort.
Let me explain that my reaction to P stems from my personal experience. In college I worked in a group home for troubled teens, and I've seen a lot of wannabe role models in those kids' lives that behaved much like P did, and I can tell you from watching the kids first hand--the effect on them was very powerful, and not a good one. At all. It angered me at the time, and it angers me now. I don't care what effect P will have on ballroom, but I really hope he has NO effect on the "kids in the hood" he said he wanted to influence.

[moother]

I generally like Len when he gives advice. Most of the time I agree with him even if I am watching with a purely amateur eye. I had to agree with him the other night when he was talking to Ashley and P and the crowd started booing like he was saying something totally wrong! He finally said...SHUT UP!
That may not have been nice but the crowd was giving P the idea that he was being judged unfairly and he wasn't. He was giving a very accurate review and critique of what P called dancing.

[Big10]

Let me explain that my reaction to P stems from my personal experience. In college I worked in a group home for troubled teens, and I've seen a lot of wannabe role models in those kids' lives that behaved much like P did, and I can tell you from watching the kids first hand--the effect on them was very powerful, and not a good one. At all. It angered me at the time, and it angers me now. I don't care what effect P will have on ballroom, but I really hope he has NO effect on the "kids in the hood" he said he wanted to influence.
I don't know the relevance of your personal experience or mine, but I also did volunteer work with underprivileged teens during college, and I have continued to do so afterwards. I guarantee you that for the overwhelming majority of them, their first exposure to Master P (any many other tv/movie/music personalities who are much worse than he) was not from watching Dancing With The Stars. I was indeed disappointed that he didn't put in more training hours, but I honestly thought it was a positive thing on this show to see his "soft side" with Ashly and the genuine affection that developed between the two of them.

[Chris Stratton]

Looking at P's jive, and motivation problems aside, my immediate reaction is that nobody told him to stop over using his departing leg, and perhaps use the arriving one some instead For some reason, lots of guys, myself included, struggled with this for a long time - it's exhibited by either launching into a movement too big for the tempo, or failing to really do much at all out of fear of the former happening every time you do. The thing is it doesn't need to be a struggle - all it needs is a teacher to spot the problem, explain what you are actually supposed to do to get from one foot to the other, and reinforce that through the early practice as you are trying to get the hang of it.

Yes, P was probably a difficult student - but it's unclear if he was ever actually taught how to dance, instead of just being expected to figure it out.

[Big10]

Yes, P was probably a difficult student - but it's unclear if he was ever actually taught how to dance, instead of just being expected to figure it out.
You've raised an interesting point, and probably one that could be the subject of its own thread on this forum. In other words, what aspects of the dancing should be attributed to the "celebrity" and what aspects should be attributed to the choreographing pro?

That was a big thought on my mind last season regarding some of the criticisms against Kelly, and it struck me particularly when Carrie Ann said about Master P's performance last Thursday night that "without a matador, there's no Paso Doble" (or something to that effect). Yet, how was Master P supposed to know how to effectively portray a matador according to ballroom standards? I think Ashly is awesome (and really cute :oops: ) but to me that was a choreography issue for which Master P should not have received all the blame.

[wooh]

You've raised an interesting point, and probably one that could be the subject of its own thread on this forum. In other words, what aspects of the dancing should be attributed to the "celebrity" and what aspects should be attributed to the choreographing pro?

That was a big thought on my mind last season regarding some of the criticisms against Kelly, and it struck me particularly when Carrie Ann said about Master P's performance last Thursday night that "without a matador, there's no Paso Doble" (or something to that effect). Yet, how was Master P supposed to know how to effectively portray a matador according to ballroom standards? I think Ashly is awesome (and really cute :oops: ) but to me that was a choreography issue for which Master P should not have received all the blame.

So during which of the 5 whole hours of teaching this week was she supposed to have taught that? I honestly don't think Ashley is the strongest teacher or choreographer on the show. But considering the limited time she's had with this particular "student", I think she did amazingly well. There's only so much one can teach in a limited time, especially if the "student" isn't particularly focused or dedicated. (And how do I know he wasn't focused or dedicated? Focused and dedicated students do more than the minimum required.)

[Big10]

So during which of the 5 whole hours of teaching this week was she supposed to have taught that?
Everything I know about Paso Doble is what I saw in Strictly Ballroom....in other words, not much. However, based on Carrie Ann's comment, I got the impression that the choreography starts with the matador (whatever that means dance-wise) and moves from there. Apparently it was important enough for another couple (Drew & Cheryl, I think?) to have a "real" matador help with the instruction.

So, if it's that essential, then my guess is that Ashly should have spent the first part of the instruction time dealing with that, or at least making sure it was something she could give the illusion was there (like Edyta's dancing circles around George's "matador").

[ACtenDance]

Everything I know about Paso Doble is what I saw in Strictly Ballroom....in other words, not much. However, based on Carrie Ann's comment, I got the impression that the choreography starts with the matador (whatever that means dance-wise) and moves from there. Apparently it was important enough for another couple (Drew & Cheryl, I think?) to have a "real" matador help with the instruction.

So, if it's that essential, then my guess is that Ashly should have spent the first part of the instruction time dealing with that, or at least making sure it was something she could give the illusion was there (like Edyta's dancing circles around George's "matador").

Believing what Carrie Ann says is not a wise thing to do. She has the best of intentions I'm sure, but she doesn't know what she's talking about.

[wooh]

And this was supposed to be in what part of the 5 hours? I know everything's bigger in Texas, but when I lived there, 5 hours was still only 5 hours. Have the hours gotten bigger there in the last few years?

[musicchica86]

I'm going to have to agree with wooh on this one. 5 hours is barely enough time for him to learn the choreography, much less get into the "spirit" of things.

I'd be curious to know why you're trying to make excuses for the man when he obviously didn't put in the effort and used promoting his new album as his own excuse.

[Big10]

I'd be curious to know why you're trying to make excuses for the man
What "excuses" have I made? :? Apparently you chose to overlook this statement from just one page back:I was indeed disappointed that he didn't put in more training hours,....
I have also repeatedly stated that Master P's dancing during this season sucked/was not good/was bad, etc.

I've started a couple of discussion threads in this sub-forum asking questions about people's opinions, and I've responded with my own opinions when people asked questions of me or otherwise addressed the topic of the thread. If you have a different opinion, that's perfectly fine. But why such hostile tones in the writing from several of you, whenever Master P is discussed?

In any event, does anyone care to answer the question about whether the choreographer or the student should be blamed for failing to include the matador in a Paso Doble? Or is Carrie Ann just clueless about that concept, as ACtenDance suggests?

[wooh]

I would say that "acting the Matador" would fall under styling, which you can't get to styling until you get the basics down, and in 5 hours, if you get the basics and choreography down, you're doing excellent. Considering obviously P didn't even get that down, "acting the Matador" was the least of his concerns.

[saludas]

In any event, does anyone care to answer the question about whether the choreographer or the student should be blamed for failing to include the matador in a Paso Doble? Or is Carrie Ann just clueless about that concept, as ACtenDance suggests?

Master P's result (what he looked like) is typical, to me, of a beginner student. One who 'heard' about 1 percent of what the teacher told him.

Yes, he was certainly instructed and shown what Paso was like etc. The teacher, unfortunately, had a 'student' that only grasped a small percentage of what he was told. Or processed. He failed to do it. When he was told, for instance, in his lesson, to hold out his arm in a 'defiant' way, for instance, he promptly processed this request from his teacher through his 'intellect' side and turned that strong, forceful action into a swish of his arm, if he even remembered it at all. To him, all he remembered, or cared to remember, was that when x happpened he did y.

The choreography of Paso for students true silver level looks a lot like slow merengue, so his choreography was a little more advanced than some, but I'm sure his teacher realized how little he was going to grasp and so had him do what he would do rather than what he could do.

I resented his 'judging' his situation. Like all absolute beginners, he needed to strip away from his ego any thoughts of competencey and just get into the process.

Unfortunately, you are like most of the viewers of the show - all you 'know' about Paso Doble came from a fanciful story that 'explained' it to you, and since the story you was acted by dancers who actually COULD do elements of dance, it appears to you, like most folks, that dance somehow is a thing they can do if they just 'try' or 'wish'. Like learning self defense by painting a fence from "The Karate Kid". Or showdancing in one week from "Dirty Dancing". etc. Those are MOVIES.

Five hours of instruction? Look at the average Proam dancer, and look at their first competition. That's what five hours of instruction look like, with a student who, while certainly not practicing outside that five hours, at least displays heart and attempts.

[justdance]

Morning, everyone...that's an interesting question about the choreography and where to rest the blame so to speak.
One thing I've learned through the years is that when it comes to teachers, the old adage "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink" is the perfect answer to the question.
It doesn't matter how good the teacher is in explaining, demonstrating and guiding the student. At the end of the day, the teacher cannot do it for the student. Therefore, I don't believe anyone is to "blame". When you look at it that way, you can understand the teacher's frustration for the student if they struggle, and their joy when the student has a breakthrough. The bond between the teacher and student is wonderful and in most cases, I would hope, both view it as a journey they are taking together.

[DancePoet]

My problem with Len is that he is now the most recognizable "face" of ballroom dancing to the non-dancing public in his capacity as head judge, and he went beyond mere dance critiques to declare Evander Holyfield and Master P as essentially incapable of being ballroom dancers no matter how hard they might work in the future -- and, in my opinion, those two men's abilities are much closer to the "average" man who might get into dancing either reluctantly (e.g., pressured by a significant other) or on a lark. Carrie Ann made a similar comment to Kelly early last season, but has never been as personally harsh since that time. Len comes across as very elitist and unwelcoming. Honestly, some of the Internet comments I have seen do not make his attitude appear very far from the norm in the ballroom world, either. Any positive public image given to ballroom is more likely to come more from the participation of energetic, fun personalities like Stacy, Drew, Jerry, and Ashly, rather than Len.
I haven't been thrilled with many of Len's comments either. And the fact that he will continue to be on the show far longer then P certainly could influence how people see ballroom, perhaps more than P as well. Hopefully this won't effect how the "average" guy decides to learn ballroom.

[DancePoet]

I don't remember what he said about Evander, but as far as his criticism of P goes, that's not what I got out of Len's comments, personally. I took his comments to mean that P will not become a good ballroom dancer, not no matter how hard he tries, but because he does not try at all, relatively speaking. Which is a fact that even you couldn't debate, not after the comparative hours of practice were revealed. What bothered me the most about P is that he talked of giving 150% and being a positive role model, yet he clearly did not put in the effort.
Let me explain that my reaction to P stems from my personal experience. In college I worked in a group home for troubled teens, and I've seen a lot of wannabe role models in those kids' lives that behaved much like P did, and I can tell you from watching the kids first hand--the effect on them was very powerful, and not a good one. At all. It angered me at the time, and it angers me now. I don't care what effect P will have on ballroom, but I really hope he has NO effect on the "kids in the hood" he said he wanted to influence.
I believe you have hit on an important point. P probably has his most effect on the very people he said he was on the show for, and it won't be a good one because he didn't demonstrate what it would take to really give it the effort he could have. Very unfortunate.

[DancePoet]

Looking at P's jive, and motivation problems aside, my immediate reaction is that nobody told him to stop over using his departing leg, and perhaps use the arriving one some instead For some reason, lots of guys, myself included, struggled with this for a long time - it's exhibited by either launching into a movement too big for the tempo, or failing to really do much at all out of fear of the former happening every time you do. The thing is it doesn't need to be a struggle - all it needs is a teacher to spot the problem, explain what you are actually supposed to do to get from one foot to the other, and reinforce that through the early practice as you are trying to get the hang of it.

Yes, P was probably a difficult student - but it's unclear if he was ever actually taught how to dance, instead of just being expected to figure it out.
You've raised an interesting point, and probably one that could be the subject of its own thread on this forum. In other words, what aspects of the dancing should be attributed to the "celebrity" and what aspects should be attributed to the choreographing pro?

That was a big thought on my mind last season regarding some of the criticisms against Kelly, and it struck me particularly when Carrie Ann said about Master P's performance last Thursday night that "without a matador, there's no Paso Doble" (or something to that effect). Yet, how was Master P supposed to know how to effectively portray a matador according to ballroom standards? I think Ashly is awesome (and really cute :oops: ) but to me that was a choreography issue for which Master P should not have received all the blame.
These are good points, yet if one is spending only 5 hours a week compared to the 30 hours per week others are doing (as has been reported), I suspect there is a limitation to how much can really be learned.

[DancePoet]

Everything I know about Paso Doble is what I saw in Strictly Ballroom....in other words, not much. However, based on Carrie Ann's comment, I got the impression that the choreography starts with the matador (whatever that means dance-wise) and moves from there. Apparently it was important enough for another couple (Drew & Cheryl, I think?) to have a "real" matador help with the instruction.

So, if it's that essential, then my guess is that Ashly should have spent the first part of the instruction time dealing with that, or at least making sure it was something she could give the illusion was there (like Edyta's dancing circles around George's "matador").
This presumes Carrie Ann's comment was correct. ;)

[DancePoet]

I have also repeatedly stated that Master P's dancing during this season sucked/was not good/was bad, etc.

I've started a couple of discussion threads in this sub-forum asking questions about people's opinions, and I've responded with my own opinions when people asked questions of me or otherwise addressed the topic of the thread. If you have a different opinion, that's perfectly fine. But why such hostile tones in the writing from several of you, whenever Master P is discussed?

In any event, does anyone care to answer the question about whether the choreographer or the student should be blamed for failing to include the matador in a Paso Doble? Or is Carrie Ann just clueless about that concept, as ACtenDance suggests?
Big10, just wanted you to know your contributions are appreciated. :cool:

Regarding your question, I'm sure it would be the choreographer's initially, yet if the student only spends 5 hours the previous week, and technique is taught before styling, under these conditions it could be difficult to get the "student" to look like a matador.

[DancePoet]

Morning, everyone...that's an interesting question about the choreography and where to rest the blame so to speak.
One thing I've learned through the years is that when it comes to teachers, the old adage "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink" is the perfect answer to the question.
It doesn't matter how good the teacher is in explaining, demonstrating and guiding the student. At the end of the day, the teacher cannot do it for the student. Therefore, I don't believe anyone is to "blame". When you look at it that way, you can understand the teacher's frustration for the student if they struggle, and their joy when the student has a breakthrough. The bond between the teacher and student is wonderful and in most cases, I would hope, both view it as a journey they are taking together.
:D

[Firsttime Dancer]

Hi, I new, both to dance and to this forum, but I have to put in my two cents worth here if you don't mind. I have had a passion for dance that after retiring fromthe military I can finally indulge.

After thinking this issue through and looking over the 11 pages of posting and all the flack that was brought about via the press and radio, etc. I have to say who is worse?? Neither one.

Why? They both have everyone tuning in to see what is going to happen on the show. So they are watching what? DANCE! Something that I am passionate about.

My teenagers are now asking me if they can come to my classes, but they are FULL! There is no room in the ball room classes. They are signed up for the next session WHICH IS ALREADY BOOKED SOLID.

So yes, Len and P have had some heated words, they got harsh, they made ABC's day by having the ratings soar. They made other peoples tempers fly off the handles. They got people screaming about race haters etc. But they got people watching DANCE. Ok, so the professionals here of whom I bow down and kiss your feet and hope one day to be 1/3 as graceful and skilled as you can see all the goofs and errors and can pick up on everything and cringe. But please be honest, be passonate about the one thing that I am that people are still talking about DANCE!

It truely is the heart of the show. Please save me from ever becoming less passonate about dance than I am now. I might be a blundering Firsttimer just trying to remember to step out on my toes and not my heels like the Army trained me to do for 20 plus years, but God I LOVE to DANCE.

[mamboqueen]

Welcome aboard, we're thrilled to have you here, Firsttime!

[Big10]

Master P's result (what he looked like) is typical, to me, of a beginner student.
That has been exactly my view all along, and has been underlying every comment I've made about Master P. There's a big difference between being disrespectful versus simply being "new to the game."


it appears to you, like most folks, that dance somehow is a thing they can do if they just 'try' or 'wish'. Like learning self defense by painting a fence from "The Karate Kid". Or showdancing in one week from "Dirty Dancing". etc. Those are MOVIES.
:roll:

I have absolutely no idea how you could make that particular assumption about me. I have admitted that I know very little about ballroom dancing, but I do know more than the average person about dancing a choreographed routine, including partner dancing, and I have great respect for the amount of time it takes to perform something well.

I also know that learning the steps involves a different process than learning the styling. Carrie Ann commented after two different dances (Quickstep and Jive, I think) that Master P appeared to follow his choreography, even if he didn't execute it with much flair. I agreed with that assessment, and it also looked like Master P was adhering to Ashly's choreography for the Paso Doble, too. In other words, he at least had to ability to remember when to get to a certain spot on the floor and then have Ashly backlead the rest (like Edyta did with George).

So, for example, if "the matador" is simply a particular set of basic steps, then I think that would fall squarely on Ashly's shoulders. If "the matador" is a matter of styling, then I could understand how Ashly couldn't instill a series of intricate movements in Master P's muscle memory given his time constraints. That's why I wanted to get an understanding of what the whole matador thing was about, and why Carrie Ann (and other participants) made such a big deal about it.

[Medira]

And so, we were wondering what was going to be big and controversial when P left? Well, it looks like they're stretching to see what they can find. Apparently Entertainment Tonight is boasting the story of a "Dancing with the Stars Scandal" to be aired tomorrow. Stacy Keibler posing for a men's magazine! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Yeesh...you'd think if they were really wanting to stir something up, they'd try for something better.

[pygmalion]

But please be honest, be passonate about the one thing that I am that people are still talking about DANCE!

It truely is the heart of the show. Please save me from ever becoming less passonate about dance than I am now. I might be a blundering Firsttimer just trying to remember to step out on my toes and not my heels like the Army trained me to do for 20 plus years, but God I LOVE to DANCE.

Thanks for keeping us honest, Firsttime Dancer. And welcome to the forums. We're here for people just like you. :D

Welcome. :D

[pygmalion]

And so, we were wondering what was going to be big and controversial when P left? Well, it looks like they're stretching to see what they can find. Apparently Entertainment Tonight is boasting the story of a "Dancing with the Stars Scandal" to be aired tomorrow. Stacy Keibler posing for a men's magazine! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Yeesh...you'd think if they were really wanting to stir something up, they'd try for something better.

Little do they know that ballroom dancers dancing salsa is plenty to keep the dance world agog. :lol:

[waltzgirl]

Five hours of instruction? Look at the average Proam dancer, and look at their first competition. That's what five hours of instruction look like, with a student who, while certainly not practicing outside that five hours, at least displays heart and attempts.

At first I thought, whoa! What do you mean 5 hours? I took lessons for six months before I entered my first pro/am comp. And then I figured out that, since I danced six dances, I had probably averaged about 6 hours of lessons on each dance. That explains a lot!

[pygmalion]

Yes. The whole equation chages, if the beginning pro-am student practices outside of lessons. I suspect a lot of pro-am instructors find it difficult to pressure their students to practice, though. They are, after all, trying to make dance lessons appealing enough so that their adult-learner, $70+-per-hour-paying students want to come back. It's a tough balance for everyone, I think. :?

[Joe]

And so, we were wondering what was going to be big and controversial when P left? Well, it looks like they're stretching to see what they can find. Apparently Entertainment Tonight is boasting the story of a "Dancing with the Stars Scandal" to be aired tomorrow. Stacy Keibler posing for a men's magazine! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Which one, and where can I get a copy? :raisebro:

[mamboqueen]

Why does this not remotely surprise me? I'd be willing to bet somewhere in the article (and Joe, you *will* read the article, right??!!) she'll say she wants to be an actress.

[Medira]

Which one, and where can I get a copy? :raisebro:
I don't know! You'll have to watch Entertainment Tonight to find out. :)

[Medira]

Why does this not remotely surprise me? I'd be willing to bet somewhere in the article (and Joe, you *will* read the article, right??!!) she'll say she wants to be an actress.
Hehehe! Probably.

I don't see why it matters though. Last season's winner was a former Playboy bunny!

[star_gazer]

I might be a blundering Firsttimer just trying to remember to step out on my toes and not my heels like the Army trained me to do for 20 plus years, but God I LOVE to DANCE.Slightly off course but...my oldest daughter did ballet and was on the ballroom dance team in high school. Then the summer after her first year in college she joined the army and went to basic training at Ft Jackson. She got some special medal for max-ing in PT and says that all her dance training gave her the discipline, flexiblility and strength to succeed. She's at Ft Rucker training to fly helicopters now but she still joins us at as many ballroom dance competitions as she can. And she's quite the dancer!

[Joe]

They have articles?

[GJB]

Where are those hot pics of Stacey : )

[Joe]

Right here (http://wwww.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?t=11598)