Most Popular Swing Dance

[Spitfire]

I was just wondering something; which swing dance is currently the most popular?

I would guess that it's a toss up between Lindy Hop and WCS.

[Anonymous]

You might also consider East Coast Swing because it's taught in virtually every ballroom dance studio in the United States. I'll bet West Coast and Lindy are tied for second.

To confuse matters, Savoy style Lindy is quite different than Hollywood Lindy (which started West Coast Swing!).

[Spitfire]

You might also consider East Coast Swing because it's taught in virtually every ballroom dance studio in the United States. I'll bet West Coast and Lindy are tied for second.

To confuse matters, Savoy style Lindy is quite different than Hollywood Lindy (which started West Coast Swing!).

Savoy is the original I believe and the one being done by all the Lindy clubs.

[DanceMentor]

I met Frankie Manning once at a conference here in Atlanta. He was one of the original Savoy Lindy Hoppers. He is one truly amazing fellow. I sure hope I'm as vibrant and happy at over 80 years old. Is it the swing that does it? You'll really appreciate Lindy if you ever get a chance to meet him. He is still touring around the country. :)

[pygmalion]

Wow. It's amazing some of the cool topics that were posted long ago. Any thoughts on this, d nice? Vince A?

[Vince A]

Wow. It's amazing some of the cool topics that were posted long ago. Any thoughts on this, d nice? Vince A?
Hi Jenn,
Yes, there are some really kewl posts, and I keep going back to peruse them now and then. I feel that we have a great cross-culture of dancers now as compared to maybe even six-months ago, so bringing them back up every now and then, may get some "new" responses.

Maybe each of us moderators should try to find one every week or two, and rekindle it. I know SD wants us to "re-think" how we can do things, maybe you have a good thing here???

As far as Swing goes, it's hard to say what is the most popular. If I had to guess, I would say Lindy, but not in the circles I'm around. I see maybe 1 Lindy dancer to every 100 WCS/ECS dancers, but that is only because I go to those kind of events (WCS/ECS). I'm sure if I went to an all Lindy venue, I'd see little or no WCS dancers. Maybe? Kinda? Sorta?

I really love to WCS, but because of what I've read on this forum, I now want to learn the Lindy, just so I can go to more events. Once the Lindy is started . . . on to more Ballroom!

Oh, by the way, I wonder if the WCS is the most popular dance in CA? I've heard that it is the official State dance! Yeah, right???

[DanceMentor]

I think the answer to this question is best answered on a regional level. Even definitions change from one region to another. For example, swing and shag are synonymous in South Carolina.

[SwinginBoo]

I would like to think that it's Lindy. But I have my doubts. I think WCS is making a huge movement here in the New England.

[d nice]

Jitterbug, definately jitterbug, which includes both ballroom East Coast Swing and club East Coast Swing.

I suspect if you are talking about straight West Coast Swing, Lindy Hop is more popular (ignore the style differences it is exactly the same dance). If you include things like Push, Whip, Bop, Imperial, Smooth Hand Dance, etc. Then "WCS" is much bigger, but truthfully they are all seperate forms of swing dancing with their own unique genesis.

I'd say that WCS and Lindy are equally popular in California, with WCS having a little more of an edge.

[pygmalion]

Huh? Jitterbug includes a couple varieties of ECS? Does it include anything else?


Just as an aside, is there a swing family tree somewhere? How the heck do you keep track of all this stuff?

[d nice]

I'm smart. 8)

[d nice]

I actually had created a tree or style map at one point. Alas with the loss of my old computer, it disappeared into the digital domain.

[pygmalion]

And cute, too. :D

Anything else you didn't mention about jitterbug? And, just out of curiosity (all due respect to you American rhythm people) where does jive fit in?

[d nice]

Jive was a danced spawned by Europeans (well the British anyway) as they tried to copy the lindy hop brought over during WWII.

Jitterbug as a dance style is the descendent six count dominate form of the lindy hop danced in the 50's to Rock and Roll which gave birth to the Ballroom version East Coast Swing.

[SDsalsaguy]

Umm, what does Jive have to do with American Rhythm? The ballroom version of ECS is danced in the Rhythm division, Jive is danced in International Latin (which makes sense given its Eoropean genesis).

[pygmalion]

Yup, SD. That was my point. A change of subject from swing (American Rhythm) to Jive (International Latin). :D

[SDsalsaguy]

:doh:

...guess my brain must be on idle this morning. :?

[pygmalion]

I can so relate. I have had a grand total of something like 20 hours sleep in the past week, and I can barely function. If I say anything stupid, forgive me in advance.

[Vince A]

I can so relate. I have had a grand total of something like 20 hours sleep in the past week, and I can barely function. If I say anything stupid, forgive me in advance.
I honestly do not think you are capable of saying anything stupid!

I surmise that you are a "beautiful (albeit I do not know what you look like), classy, and highly-intelligent," 100-percent lady.

As such, I know that you "think" before you speak? And act?

Yes?

[pygmalion]

Vince. :D I'm sending you mental kisses and hugs.

How do I say this? Hmm.

Physical beauty and intelligence are great if you have them, but far more important is having internal beauty and emotional intelligence. And there, I think everyone is capable of saying or doing stupid things from time to time. Especially in a medium like this -- instantaneous, cold, and easy to misinterpret -- it's easy to hurt or offend unintentionally. Yes, I do spend a lot of time thinking before I speak, and after I speak, too. The most important thing this forum has, in my way of thinking, is its people and their feelings. That's truly the foremost thing on my mind. Dance is a very close second. I really care about you guys. A lot. You've all become so important to me, even though I don't "know" any of you. So I always try to be careful with everything I say, because I care about how you feel.

[Vince A]

Vince. :D I'm sending you mental kisses and hugs.

How do I say this? Hmm.

Physical beauty and intelligence are great if you have them, but far more important is having internal beauty and emotional intelligence. And there, I think everyone is capable of saying or doing stupid things from time to time. Especially in a medium like this -- instantaneous, cold, and easy to misinterpret -- it's easy to hurt or offend unintentionally. Yes, I do spend a lot of time thinking before I speak, and after I speak, too. The most important thing this forum has, in my way of thinking, is its people and their feelings. That's truly the foremost thing on my mind. Dance is a very close second. I really care about you guys. A lot. You've all become so important to me, even though I don't "know" any of you. So I always try to be careful with everything I say, because I care about how you feel.
Mmmmm . . . thanks. Remind me to wipe off the lipstick before I go home??? :wink:

I believe we are all capable of hurting someone or saying (writing) something wrong in the DF. It is difficult to put the thoughts into words without making them sometimes being construed as wrong or callous.

I further believe that no one person, with the exception of just one, is intentionally capable of being demeaning to another here. If I could stay on line and hooked into the DF 24 x 7, I would just so I could catch the bad ones and edit them or delete them before they "go to press."

I think many of would if we could!

[pygmalion]

Yes to all you say. I just feel blessed to be in a place where there are so few bad eggs. Pretty much everyone here has good intentions, and that's what makes the forums one of my favorite places to be. :D

Give Carolyn a hug for me, too. :D

Jenn

[SwinginBoo]

Yes to all you say. I just feel blessed to be in a place where there are so few bad eggs. Pretty much everyone here has good intentions, and that's what makes the forums one of my favorite places to be. :D


Jenn

That's because dancers are happy people :D :D :D

[jon]

Even definitions change from one region to another. For example, swing and shag are synonymous in South Carolina.

That's not my experience, based on living in the not-so-deep South 1987-1997. The swing and Carolina Shag communities were very distinct, the shaggers tending to be 40-ish smokers and drinkers, the swing dancers being much younger and having different vices, and there was very little crossover between the groups. There is somewhat more interaction these days but they are still quite distinct groups.

OTOH use of "swing" as a generic label for what you dance is a frequent point of contention between WCS and Lindy dancers who care about such things.

[DanceMentor]

There is some truth to that statement, Jon. But I will say you can go to bars in Atlanta and people use both "swing" and "shag" to describe the same thing. I think you are more right than me though. :oops:

Still, I think what is more popular is more related to the region and there are significant differences in what is popular by region. Ex. - Shag is huge in South Carolina when compared to any other form of swing. I would be willing to bet that there are more dancers per capita in South Carolina than in other state in the US.

[HepcatBob]

I would be willing to bet that there are more dancers per capita in South Carolina than in other state in the US.

You should come to North Carolina. You might lose that bet here.

[HepcatBob]

The swing and Carolina Shag communities were very distinct, the shaggers tending to be 40-ish smokers...

I think I resent that comment. :lol: I'm 46, and until last January I was a smoker, and I'm most definitely a lindy hopper. Carolina Shag and the music it's danced to makes me want to barf. I do know what you mean, though.

[DanceMentor]

Here in Atlanta the shagger crowd tends to be older. The Lindy Hop crowd is 30ish people but there are plenty of people in their 40's and 50's.

[pygmalion]

Okay. Now I'm totally confused. Is there a most popular swing dance? Or am I hearing that it depends on where you live and how old you are? :? :?:

[d nice]

There is, club style East Coast Swing (Jitterbug).

It is the most popular style in the country... but there always places that will have a different dance locally or regionally that is more popular.

For example if you go to San Francisco and dropped into a venue advertising swing dancing you are going to find Lindy Hop. Myrtle Beach you'll find Carolina Shag. However you often find people in both places that know jitterbug, and their main dance, and no other.

[jon]

Okay. Now I'm totally confused. Is there a most popular swing dance?

Sure, every swing dancer has a version that's their most popular one :-)

You'll notice an absence of any objectively verifiable, statistically valid data in this discussion, mostly because there's no way to acquire it.

[pygmalion]

Hmm. I'm sure everybody has their preference, and since I'm not yet a world-class swing person, like the rest of you, I'll reserve my decision. In the meantime, I'll vote with d nice, and learn some more jitterbug. At least I can take that with me. :D Plus, if I understand correctly, the ECS I know is part of the jitterbug clan. So I'm not as ignorant as I thought. At least I know something. (My tuck turns still stink, though!) :D

[d nice]

Nope, empirical evidence is as close as you'll get. Personally I think this is a good thing.

[d nice]

Hmm. I'm sure everybody has their preference, and since I'm not yet a world-class swing person, like the rest of you, I'll reserve my decision. In the meantime, I'll vote with d nice, and learn some more jitterbug. At least I can take that with me. :D Plus, if I understand correctly, the ECS I know is part of the jitterbug clan. So I'm not as ignorant as I thought. At least I know something. (My tuck turns still stink, though!) :D

One of the biggest problems with followers on turns is they don't let the leader "drive the turn", they just snap themselves through it.

Yes the turn has a "count" it is "suppossed" to be done in, but since swing allows for improvisation on the rhtyhm and duration of any move, you need to let the leader dictate how quickly you move through a move. Your frame with the momentum and direction your leader has given you is what causes the turn to happen, not reaching a specific "count" or step.

Of course this is assuming the leader is actually leading. If he is trying to use signals instead of move you then all bets are off. He has failed in his primary responsibility, leading you, and therefor you can not be expected to follow something not lead.

[pygmalion]

Nope, empirical evidence is as close as you'll get. Personally I think this is a good thing.


Yup. And to me, observations are data. Since you've been all over the U.S. and the world observing, I think I can take your word for it. ...
At least until I take ten more lessons. Then I'll challenge you on everything you say. *giggle* :lol: :lol:

[d nice]

You should challenge everything I say now. We can all make mistakes, and the observations of a newer dancer are every bit as valid as those of an experienced dancer.

I won't take the questioning as a personal insult.

[pygmalion]

He He He! :lol: :lol:

And I won't question until I have at least a clue of what I'm talking about! :lol:

[Swing Kitten]

:lol: *sigh* that is such a great idea!

[pygmalion]

Hmmm. Why do I feel that there are some double entendre's in play here? Hmmm. :lol:

[pygmalion]

Hey Mr. nice! :lol:

I give up. Two rounds of asking my private instuctor to set up lindy classes, and no luck. Not enough interest. Can you recommend a good lindy teacher in or near Orlando? PM me if you want.

Thanks. :D

Jenn

[HepcatBob]

Hey Mr. nice! :lol:

I give up. Two rounds of asking my private instuctor to set up lindy classes, and no luck. Not enough interest. Can you recommend a good lindy teacher in or near Orlando? PM me if you want.

Thanks. :D

Jenn

Jenn,
You could start out with videos. Which ones to get depends on the style you prefer. If you want to learn the original, Savoy style, start with the first one by Frankie Manning and Erin Stevens. That's how I started and it's easy to learn from. It'll teach you the basic steps and then you can go from there. There are others, but that one, I think, is the best to start with.

[d nice]

Actually Frankie's videos are great to learn the original form of lindy hop, and the styling if you are a leader. Erin however does not dance with the original styling. If you want to learn the original styling for a follower I'd recommend Ryan & Jenny's tape. If you want an excellent serious that has an eye to the more contemporary style I'd suggest Steven Mitchell and Louise Thwaite's videos. These are two of the best instructional videos I can reccomend.

I don't know who is currently teaching in Orlando, but let me ask around and I'll pm you some names.

[pygmalion]

Thanks, guys. I'll order a video or two to start. You know me, though, at this point, I see videos as a good tool to reinforce what I'm learning in class. Actually learning from video has to wait until I know how to dance. :lol:

[HepcatBob]

Thanks, D Nice!
Since I'm a leader, I hadn't really paid much attention to the way they taught the follower's part. My girlfriend learned from Norma Miller, so I never had to worry about it.

[d nice]

Norma is a peach. Kinda prickly tart, and hard as a rock inside. :lol:

Seriousely I love Norma and teaching with her is one of my most treasured memories.

Erin is a good teacher and dancer over all... I just think her classes lack humor and her dancing is too much mugging/cutesy type stuff and not enough dynamicism for me. These are personal assessments based off of what i liketo see in my own dancing as a follower and what I prefer in followers I dance with.

Others love her as a teach and as a dancer, still others strongly disdain her teaching and dancing.

Its a style thing, both teaching and dancing. Everyone forms opinions about what they prefer after a certain amount of exposure/experience. These impressions will grow and change, and evolve... refining themselves to you discover who you are in the dance.

[Black Sheep]

I know what the Savoy Lindy is because I wrote the only detailed
descriptions of the dance in two of my recent books, and I know EXACTLY what the ''OLD' WCS is because that was the first Swing I learned and danced and taught at my Hollywood Dance Studio from 1949-1953.
But will someone take the time and effort to describe the style and structure of these following variations of the Savoy Lindy so we all can have an erudite discussion instead of these gibberish nonsensical statements with no basic defining differences between these dances:

Jitterbug
Jive
Savoy Lindy
Texas Tommy Swing
WCS
ECS
Flying Lindy
The New Yorker
The Big Apple
Hip Hop
Joshua Jive
And anything else.

How about it, you closet experts. Let's bring some clarity to these
discussions when throwing around these various offshoots of the original
Lndy Hop.
Black Sheep 'clear definitions are essential for logical discussions' Joe
Lanza 2003 a.d.

[Vince A]

Most of these dances are just off-shoots of another that haver been carried to various regions of the country/world . . .

Since we're making a list of these dances, don't forget to include:
Arthur Murray Shag
Balboa
Beach Bop
Boogie Woogie
Bop
Bugg
Country Swing
D.C. Swing
Disco Swing
Double Bug
Double Hustle
Hustle
3 Count Hustle
Imperial
Jamaica
Kansas City Shag
LAtin Hustle
Le Roc
Lindy Hop
Line Hustle
New York Hustle
Prep Step
Push
Rock and Roll
Rope Hustle
Shag
Single Swing
Sling Hustle
Stepping
St. Louis Shag
Street Hustle
Supreme
Triple Swing
Western Swing
... and many more . . . all in improvisation of ??? what dance(s)???

[Black Sheep]

Vince,
Your list of dances is awesome. Now we know that we will never be able to compile a dance dictionary defining all these dances. You did leave out the 'Dora Lee' I believe it was the first novelty dance preceding the 'Twist' by several years. I still have a copy of the dance illustrated description that appeared in the L.A. Times around 1953. I can dig it out if you are interested.
How about one called, 'The Varsity Drag'?
I'm still working on the Texas Tommy Swingout. But I think I need some additional information! I got the part about swingout your partner on the one to eight, turn her around and Swingout on the gate! but I always end up too late on the count of eight and fall on my knees. What am I doing wrong D'nice?
Black Sheep 'It's never too late, to learn how to count,... up to 'Eight', Frankie Manning 2001 a. d.

[Vince A]

Joe,
Was the 'Dora Lee' a swing-type dance or just a novelty dance??? I don't even recall hearing the name of that dance!

[d nice]

I know what the Savoy Lindy is because I wrote the only detailed
descriptions of the dance in two of my recent books,

Point of order... no you didn't. There are MANY detailed descriptions of lindy hop. Interestingly enough though... most describe something different than what you describe... then again I'm not surprised either.

and I know EXACTLY what the ''OLD' WCS is because that was the first Swing I learned and danced and taught at my Hollywood Dance Studio from 1949-1953.

That has yet to be determined... you seem to have inability to differentiate between WCS and Lindy Hop, constantly refering to some lindy hoppers repeatedly as WCS dancers when they are anything but.

But will someone take the time and effort to describe the style and structure of these following variations of the Savoy Lindy so we all can have an erudite discussion instead of these gibberish nonsensical statements with no basic defining differences between these dances:

Actually some of these have already been addressed, and most of these dances have deteailed descriptions on various swing sites.

Joe would you mind pointing out ANY examples of "gibberish nonsensical statements with no defining differences"? If you can't please avoid posting such ridiculous and inflammatory remarks.

That said I will happily give a detailed description of the dances here I and others have yet to describe on this forum.

Jitterbug Jitterbug is a term used to describe many a style of swing dancing mostly referering to lindy hop outside of New York gaining more acceptance in the forties and into the early sixties, a term which eventually became associated with a descendant form of lindy hop where the eight count basic was replaced with a six count basic (a derivitive of the jig walk). The basic is step-step, triple-step, triple-step, the partner relationship tends to be a "V" formation similar to the lindy hop closed position. The body posture is similar to lindy hop, an athletic and balanced stance, the lead follow is derived from the movement of the leaders center to direct the follower, the movement is grounded and into the floor.

Jive Jive is currently used almost exclusively to refer to the International Swing dance style. It originally was the British mimicing the lindy hop they saw US military men dancing. The dance itself is similar enough to single step "ECS" that description of moves is unproductive. I'll leave the differences in body posture and movement that truely distinguish this dance to one of the international style dancers who will be able to do a better job than I.

The New Yorker My understanding from Peter Loggins is that this is another name for a style of lindy hop.

Hip Hop This is an entitre sub-genre of vernacular jazz dance. It is characterized by the use of isolation, cross and/or polyrhythm, and illusionary movement. This group of dances is so rich any attempt at a brief description would be more confusing than illuminating. If you are really interested in discovering more about hip hop start a new thread under general dance (since it is not a swing dance) and you'll probably get a better and more detailed response.

Joshua Jive Never seen it, and considering how you named it, and have repeteadly failed to provide any details concerning I actually doubt that it is a seperate dance at all, but instead just one flavor of the modern freestyle or new school lindy hop that is popular through out the country.
And anything else.

How about it, you closet experts. Let's bring some clarity to these
discussions when throwing around these various offshoots of the original
Lndy Hop.
Black Sheep 'clear definitions are essential for logical discussions' Joe
Lanza 2003 a.d.

Joe why in the world must you take this tact on this forum? A number of these dances have been discussed in detail... simply because they don't match your expectations in no way invalidates the statements and evidence that is usually presented when you try and dispute these statements.

[Black Sheep]

Just a late Response because I had a Long date with some nurses, but let me reply to the following allegations at the end of these paragraphs:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Black Sheep wrote:
I know what the Savoy Lindy is because I wrote the only detailed
descriptions of the dance in two of my recent books, 'Lindy By Lanza' and "Strictly Swing".

D'Nice Wrote:
"Point of order... no you didn't (Joe). There are MANY detailed descriptions of lindy hop. Interestingly enough though... most describe something different than what you describe... then again I'm not surprised either."

Joe Lanza's Reply, "D'Nice, Name one!"

Black Sheep "Talk is Dirt Cheap, Verificatiion is Golden' Joe Lanza 2003 a. d.

[d nice]

Swingin' at the Savoy: The Memoir of a Jazz Dancer
by Norma Miller, Evette Jensen
ISBN: 1566394945

Swing! The New Retro Renaissance
by V. Vale (Editor), Marian Wallace (Editor)
ISBN: 1889307025

Steppin on the Blues: The Visible Rhythms of African American Dance
by Jacqui Malone
ISBN: 0252065085

Swingin' the Dream
by Lewis A. Erenberg
ISBN: 0226215172

Jazz Dance: The Story of American Vernacular Dance
by Marshall Winslow Stearns, Jean Stearns
ISBN: 0306805537

Black Dance: From 1619 to Today
by Lynne Fauley Emery, Katherine Dunham
ISBN: 0916622630

Oh wait you said one... my bad. I'll let you choose. All can be found in the Library of Congress by their ISBN. What is your books ISBN number so the people here can find it?

[Black Sheep]

Name Droppings like Pigeon Droppings are only droppings, NOT verifications!
How about some Quotes from the Name droppings with page numbers and descriptions of these Savoy Lindy Techniques.
My books have over 15 Savoy Techniques described in detail plus the Basic integrity of the savoy Lindy Hop and with illustrations.
But you, D'nice would not know this because I can see by your spurious critiques, you never read any of my Documentary books, "Strictly Swing, the Dean Collin's Way' and 'Lindy by Lanza', and you obviously are questioning my statement based on what you have read in my Dance Forums Commentaries; and you are going by these few descriptions which you invariable mis interpret and mis Quote to suit your pre judged, preconceived agenda.
So D'nice, Please give the Readers of Dance Forums the following information:
1) Quote the Savoy Lindy descriptions in full;
2) Give title and IBM number of book;
3) Page numbers;
4) and explain how they even begin the contradict my 'Magic Pill, 6 count Lindy Teaching Method' and 'Teaching Techniques' posted in this forum which in part deal strictly with the Savoy Lindy Style.

Answer these 4 queries in sufficient detail, then you will be doing a great service to this Dance Forum, instead of cluttering up my contributions with you off handed remarks!
Your list of books obviously, if at all possible, can give you all the ammunition you need to discredit my statement, that 'I, JOE LANZA am the only one to describe the Savoy Lindy Hop' fully in detail. I am so certain of what I claim, that it is ludicrous to think otherwise, and I will never divulge how I know the Savoy Lindy so thoroughly.
I do not need to read the books you listed, because I already knew, taught and danced the Savoy Lindy Hop in detail since the early fifties and my 'Bear Trap Memory' of the Lindy Hop and the Flying Lindy style goes back to my teenage days to New York City in the 1930's.
Black Sheep 'Adversaries are often your nost beneficent Samaritans' Joe Lanza 2003 a.d.

[Swing Kitten]

Joe Lanza's Reply, "D'Nice, Name one!"

This IS exactly what you asked him to do and this IS exactly what he did and more! Will you please BACK OFF!
Just because the facts contridict your story over and over and over again does not mean that somehow every one else in the universe (including every editor from each of these professional, accerdited publishing houses) got it wrong! There is no sense talking with you Joe! You automatically discredit every thing that wasn't part of your preconceived notion with absolutley no bearing to the world of even basic logic!

Even if D nice were to go through and give you the information that you now require of him (instead of looking it up yourself!) you'll come up with some rediculous way to 'discredit' these actual books. Do you know how I know? Because it is the same stupid game you've been playing for months! And I'm SICK of it!

..now let me begin with your last little gem of a post!

Name Droppings like Pigeon Droppings are only droppings, NOT verifications!
When have you EVER provided ANY verifications of your claims? Please give me the thread name and page number so I can look it up myself.
--this is how you treat the EXACT information you asked him to provide! (trying to 'discredit' the books now?)


My books have over 15 Savoy Techniques described in detail plus the Basic integrity of the savoy Lindy Hop and with illustrations.
But you, D'nice would not know this because I can see by your spurious critiques, you never read any of my Documentary books, "Strictly Swing, the Dean Collin's Way' and 'Lindy by Lanza',...

How could he??? These 'books' are not in my university's library or even in their computer! I've looked on Amazon.com and (suprise suprise) nothing came up! Don't go around holding people responsible for information not available.

... and you obviously are questioning my statement based on what you have read in my Dance Forums Commentaries; and you are going by these few descriptions which you invariable mis interpret and mis Quote to suit your pre judged, preconceived agenda.

so... he has read the information available... you said so yourself. His 'mis interpretations' have followed an explainable and logical train of thought. These 'mis quotes' that you bring up inceasently and have consistantly failed to site are in my mind, a joke... one we can ALL do without thank you!

:lol: to suit his pre judged, preconceived agenda??? :lol: and just so happens to have the scholarly writers and Frankie Manning agree with him!! It's funny Joe, it seems to me that the only one failing to look outside of his own little box is you.

So D'nice, Please give the Readers of Dance Forums the following information:
1) Quote the Savoy Lindy descriptions in full;
2) Give title and IBM number of book;
3) Page numbers;
4) and explain how they even begin the contradict my 'Magic Pill, 6 count Lindy Teaching Method' and 'Teaching Techniques' posted in this forum which in part deal strictly with the Savoy Lindy Style.

Answer these 4 queries in sufficient detail, then you will be doing a great service to this Dance Forum, instead of cluttering up my contributions with you off handed remarks!

Cut it out with this 'for the readers of the Forums' melarchy. I used to think that you just wanted to spread the joy you found in dance... but the more I read your posts the more self-serving I see you to be. The viel is becoming thinner and thinner and it's losing it's entertainment value.


I am so certain of what I claim, that it is ludicrous to think otherwise, and I will never divulge how I know the Savoy Lindy so thoroughly.

REFUSAL TO ATTEMPT TO SEE ANOTHER'S POINT OF VIEW -- can't get more blatent than that! And way to go to cite your sourses very academically.

'Bear Trap Memory'

Hard --- Closed --- and Rusted Shut .... yes I'd say that's a fairly accurate analogy

Black Sheep "Talk is Dirt Cheap, Verificatiion is Golden' Joe Lanza 2003 a. d.

Yes, please practice what you preach.... btw the whole quoting yourself thing is riding my last nerve!

Alright I'm off to class

[pygmalion]

Swingin' at the Savoy: The Memoir of a Jazz Dancer
by Norma Miller, Evette Jensen
ISBN: 1566394945

Swing! The New Retro Renaissance
by V. Vale (Editor), Marian Wallace (Editor)
ISBN: 1889307025

Steppin on the Blues: The Visible Rhythms of African American Dance
by Jacqui Malone
ISBN: 0252065085

Swingin' the Dream
by Lewis A. Erenberg
ISBN: 0226215172

Jazz Dance: The Story of American Vernacular Dance
by Marshall Winslow Stearns, Jean Stearns
ISBN: 0306805537

Black Dance: From 1619 to Today
by Lynne Fauley Emery, Katherine Dunham
ISBN: 0916622630



Cool. Thanks, d nice. I committed to myself that I'd do some research on this, and you've made it easy for me. Thanks, guy! :D

[LindyFlyer]

Thanks for the information d nice. If I choose not to purchase these books at a bookstore, I'll go to a public library or a university library and borrow them.

[Black Sheep]

SwingKitten,
Naming Books are in NO WAY a VERIFICATION of contextual material. How do we know what is between the covers of any book unless the appropriate responses are quoted in full from the given book?
You may be willing to accept the unknown as factual, but my logic runs along a different wave length.
When D'niice answers those 4 Queries above appropriately then I will have no where to go but to eat humble pie.
D'nice made his own stew of CONTRADICTIONS of my statemernt, that 'I have the only books describing the Savoy Lindy'. Now if he comes up with a book that DOES NOT predate my publications, then we have to assume 'Plagerism'.
Swing Kitten, I have a pig in the polk that I will sell you at a very reasonable price, but you have to buy it before you look inside!
Black Sheep, 'Right is right and left is left and never the twain shall meet'
Joe Lanza 2003 a.d.

[SwinginBoo]

Yet you seem to name yours for verification. Your books can't be found anywhere. I seriously doubt you are the only person to have described in detail the methods of Savoy Lindy Hop. If this is so, then why are there so many OTHER people in the world who know what it is? Did you have the pleasure of meeting all these people and handing them a personal copy of your 'book'?

[SDsalsaguy]

Joe, you’re full of it. You are the one who asked D’nice to name a book, so that’s what he did. He just happened to do you one better, he named several and provided you the ISBN #s so that you could see them for yourself... which, by the way, is the definition of evidence in the academic world. The very fact that you cannot be bothered to look for yourself is about as clear a statement as possible that you have no interest beyond your own myopic view and agenda. Thank you for stating such so clearly, however, as it puts it in the open. Also, and as has been pointed out, these sources – unlike your “books” – have passed the editorial process of independent presses.

[d nice]

Joe a few months ago I would have done what you asked... before the Frankie Manning interview. The answers I recieved from the man himself, you immediately doubted. You went so far as to imply that I never asked Frankie those questions and had made them up.

It is obvious to everyone invoved by now that anything that does not support your version of reality is wrong or a lie by someone trying to discredit you.

I have done as much as I'm going to do to prove you wrong on this. I provided numerous sources for you and everyone else on this forum to discover for yourself whether I am correct. This way you can not accuse me of lying or misquoting anyone or anything.

As has been pointed out, I did exactly what you asked, going above and beyond to make it easy for everyone involved to find the book in a store, online, or at a library. Having done that you try to raise the stakes... sorry Joe that dog won't hunt. You want me to provide an exact description and page number from the books... and when I do, you'll accuse me of lying or misquoting like last time.

I'm perfectly willng to leave you in your own myopic world Joe, where you are happiest. My posts for the last three months have all been about damage control. I'm not going to let you rewrite the history of my dance. I'm not going to let people on this forum just blindly believe that what you say is the way of things...

If you want to continue to post unsubstantiated, unverifiable musings go right ahead. Just expect me to be there to offer plenty of evidence from well researched, 100% verifiable sources, not for you, but for those that might think your statements somehow reflect the actual growth or development of lindy hop during the height of the Swing Era (which by the way every music and dance historain agrees ended before you ever learned the dance despite your attempts at claiming otherwise).

I hope everyone has a nice day. :D

[SDsalsaguy]

I hope you have a nice day too D'nice...and I look forward to your future posts about all varieties of swing dancing. The information you provide is gold... even to a non-swing dude like myself! :wink: 8)

[d nice]

Vince,
Your list of dances is awesome. Now we know that we will never be able to compile a dance dictionary defining all these dances.

Not true... check out the US Swing Dance server. Most of the dances listed (excluding the hustle dances which are not swing dances) have at least a brief historical blurb if not an actual description of the basic.

How about one called, 'The Varsity Drag'? The Varsity Drag is a silly rag time dance. Fun in the same way as the grizzly bear and bunny hug are fun, but not really much to explore for the "serious dancer".

I'm still working on the Texas Tommy Swingout. But I think I need some additional information! I got the part about swingout your partner on the one to eight, turn her around and Swingout on the gate! but I always end up too late on the count of eight and fall on my knees. What am I doing wrong D'nice?
Black Sheep 'It's never too late, to learn how to count,... up to 'Eight', Frankie Manning 2001 a. d.

What you are doing wrong is you are trying to do some square dance. The Texas Tommy Swing is a partnered swing dance. Which you should know by now. Tell you what Frankie is going to be back here in Northern California in the new year. You have my personal invitation to attend. You may take any class or sit in on any class, we'll find a place to put you up. Both for free. I extend my personal invitation to dine with us and you can ask Frankie questions to your hearts content, I won't comment or interfere in any way shape or form. PM me for the details if you are interested, in taking me up on my offer. While you are here I'll teach you the basics of the Texas Tommy Swing. Get ready to sweat it is a fast athletic dance.

[d nice]

Name Droppings like Pigeon Droppings are only droppings, NOT verifications!

SO what are you saying here Joe? That by providing the very information you asked, I am dropping names and not providing verification? What an interesting view.

How about some Quotes from the Name droppings with page numbers and descriptions of these Savoy Lindy Techniques.

How about a little respect and doing your own leg work. I've led you to the water, it is up to you to do the drinking.

My books have over 15 Savoy Techniques described in detail plus the Basic integrity of the savoy Lindy Hop and with illustrations.

Savoy Lindy Hop? ANd you danced at the Savoy when? Who taught you the Savoy Lindy Hop? When was that? When did they dance at the Savoy.

But you, D'nice would not know this because I can see by your spurious critiques, you never read any of my Documentary books,

Actually... I have... I just thought it was more politic to refrain from commenting on them and instead direct my critiques about all the erroneous information that has been posted on Dance Forums. Trust me, you don't want to open that door.

and you are going by these few descriptions which you invariable mis interpret and mis Quote to suit your pre judged, preconceived agenda.

Joe you accusse me of this again and again. It is starting to sound 100% as nothing more than a personal attack, and a completely unfounded one at that, since every time you make the accusation I ask for you to provide evidence. I'm done asking. I want you to either provide a specific example and include the hyperlink to my misquote or admit you are attacking me personally and apologize. You realize personal attacks are against Forum Guidelines and are grounds for having your posts censored, your posting priviliges suspended, or banned from the forums entirely.

If evidence or an apology is not forth coming you can expect this to be handled by the moderators. I will abstain and allow them to do as they see fit.

Answer these 4 queries in sufficient detail, then you will be doing a great service to this Dance Forum, instead of cluttering up my contributions with you off handed remarks!

Joe, my statements that contradict yours are not "off-handed" they are well thought out, well substantiated, and well articulated replies. Just because they don't support your own "world view" does not mean they are wrong.

Your list of books obviously, if at all possible, can give you all the ammunition you need to discredit my statement, that 'I, JOE LANZA am the only one to describe the Savoy Lindy Hop' fully in detail.

Joe, add to this the historical archives the Smithsonian maintains and my discourse with Savoy Dancers and you have the basis for every statement I have made that counters your "contributions". I'm pretty confident that everyone here understands that I already have all the ammunition I need.

I am so certain of what I claim, that it is ludicrous to think otherwise, and I will never divulge how I know the Savoy Lindy so thoroughly.

Wow. That is all I have to say about that statement, wow.

I do not need to read the books you listed, because I already knew, taught and danced the Savoy Lindy Hop in detail since the early fifties

Joe have you ever danced at the Savoy Ballroom? How many times have you danced with a regular follower from the Savoy Ballroom? Have you ever taught with any dancers from the Savoy Ballroom? When did you start dancing "Lindy Hop"?

[suek]

I am so certain of what I claim, that it is ludicrous to think otherwise, and I will never divulge how I know the Savoy Lindy so thoroughly.

I love this "I will never divulge" stuff. Makes students/potential students hot for the knowledge; puffs up the wannabe guru/possessor of secret knowledge. I am the master and if you treat me good baby I'll teach you what I know but you must keep it to yourself; secrecy--keeping the pressure on--will make you a better dancer/meditator/whatever fill in the blank.

IMHO, the dancers and teachers who share what they know for love and/or money pass it on so much cleaner than this come into my web and I'll share my secrets with you crap.

(okay sue breathe and do something safe like your work!)

blessings all,

sue

[pygmalion]

Off topic I know, but I've gotta ask. Sue, are you going to the DF family reunion? I'd love to meet you. :D

Um. What is the topic again? Most popular swing dance? Um. Hey d nice. I'm going to PM you the names of some lindy teachers around here. I need some input. I want to start learning some new dances after my ballroom competition on Sunday. So mid-month, I'll be ready to go again.

[pygmalion]

My last post was off topic I know, but hey, everybody around here does lindy, WCS, or ECS, with a few balboa people thrown in. No jitterbug'ers that I know of.

[suek]

Off topic I know, but I've gotta ask. Sue, are you going to the DF family reunion? I'd love to meet you. :D
If the reunion is gonna be at the Reno thing in April, I'm there. If it's some other time/place tell me.

Um. What is the topic again? Most popular swing dance? Um.
I know...let's change the topic to ... no I won't do it; I won't go there. No dish here. :shock:

[pygmalion]

Cool! I'm looking forward to meeting you! :D

I know. Let's change the subject to the most popular swing dance! What a concept! :lol: :D I believe a couple pages ago, d nice stated that the jitterbug is the most popular swing dance overall. And I was shocked to find that the ECS I know is in the jitterbug family. D nice, is there any other dance sub-group that could be called part of the jitterbug family? Just curious. On a quest for knowledge, and on a quest to learn every partner dance known to man! :lol: