Developing Showmanship

[pygmalion]

I recently went to a ballroom dance, and sat on the side briefly, just to watch. And even though there were a hundred couples on the floor, I saw two. Actually, two women, who looked like they had a spotlight on them. Stage presence like you would not believe. Gorgeous! As it turns out, both were experienced competitive dancers. Needless to say, I'm trying to figure out how to be like them.

Question: What is stage presence? How much of it comes naturally? Can you improve on it? How do you develop that showmanship, that star quality? What are judges looking for in a dancer? How about the audience? Anybody have ideas?

[Adwiz]

Good topic, Pygmalion.

Judges, competitors and teachers have told me that showmanship is one of the main things that judges look for.

One of the reasons stated was that the whole purpose of competitive or performance dancing is to perform, so showmanship is vital.

There is also the issue of measuring who's best, especially at high levels. Assuming that many of the dancers are very similar in quality of technique, most of what you have left to gauge one over another is the quality of showmanship. Their confidence and the way they include the audience. That "larger than life" quality.

Some of the competitors I talked to said that it comes primarily from confidence, and that comes primarily from competing often and watching yourself improve. As a new competitor, one of my top goals is to compete several times a year so that I can build up the confidence.

One championship-level finalist said last weekend that he had learned quite a bit about showmanship from another couple, Hungary's Maurizio Vescovo and Melinda Torokgyorgy, because of the way they included the audience as part of their performance. It's hard to explain but the effect was sensational. You couldn't take your eyes off them.

[SDsalsaguy]

Yes, Maurizio and Melinda are definitely fantastic performers! His "performance" is the more visible, but the subtlety of hers is quite impressive once you realize it's there. Have you had a chance to see them Adwiz? At the Snowball I'd assume, no?

[Adwiz]

Have you had a chance to see them Adwiz?

Yes, at the Grand Ball on November 6-9. They won the Adult Championship Latin competition. Awesome dancing, especially the Cha Cha. I ordered a highlights video so I can review the subtleties in more detail.

[pygmalion]

So one way to learn is by doing, another is by going to competitions and watching?

[Vince A]

Jenn,
And don't forget, as you go up the various levels (Newcomer, Novice, Intermediate, Advanced, Pro in the Venues that I dance in) that the judges look at your feet first to see if you can do "the basic dance steps." If you are not doing those steps, they won't look any higher than the knees.

So, make sure you have the basics down 100% as you work on your showmanship. "Time on the floor" will contribute to gaining showmanship.

[MadamSamba]

What a fabulous idea for a thread, Jenn.

Aside from the very wise things everybody else has said, I'll add the rather simple comment that some people just have it. I know of one guy who has done all sorts of medals, well past gold and has been dancing for years. He is technically perfect, but he just doesn't have "it".

Another guy I known has only been dancing for a year, but can he dance. It's actually exciting watching him move across the floor. Boy does he have it! :)

[Adwiz]

So one way to learn is by doing, another is by going to competitions and watching?

Absolutely!

Nothing compares to doing, especially when it comes to competitions. I'll never forget how nervous I was during my first competitive event. It was terrible, but the confidence grows exponentially.

However, you can also learn a lot by watching great dancers in action. My wife and I buy lots of videos and watch them every chance we get. We'll slow down the action, pause it to look at body lines and footwork, and use replays to see specific details of head movements and all the other factors. We've made all kinds of great improvements from this approach. I've even transferred many of the videos to DVD so I can take them to our studio with our tiny portable DVD player and look at specific details as we practice moves. It's not as good as a lesson but it's a lot cheaper. :wink:

[pygmalion]

My wife and I buy lots of videos and watch them every chance we get. We'll slow down the action, pause it to look at body lines and footwork, and use replays to see specific details of head movements and all the other factors. We've made all kinds of great improvements from this approach. I've even transferred many of the videos to DVD so I can take them to our studio with our tiny portable DVD player and look at specific details as we practice moves. It's not as good as a lesson but it's a lot cheaper. :wink:

Hmm. I also have a large collection of videos, but, up until this point, I've been focusing more on using them to practice step patterns. Your sugestion is a good one, adwiz. Often, the top pros SHOW a lot more than they're telling. Meaning, their unconscious styling is worth watching and copying, even if they don't focus on it. And cheaper than lessons is a good thing, too. :lol:

[Adwiz]

Often, the top pros SHOW a lot more than they're telling. Meaning, their unconscious styling is worth watching and copying, even if they don't focus on it.

We have almost as many "competition" videos as we have teaching-style ones, and both are useful. However, I find that the show dance or competition vids offer a wealth of additional stuff that really applies to competitive excellence, especially in the area of showmanship. But in both kinds, like you mention, the unconscious styling is huge and something you can never pick up the same way in a studio.

An example in point: on an intermediate Jive video by Corky and Shirley Ballas, he shows some warm up exercises. No big deal, one would think. But as I watched him doing the flick ball changes, it just looked so good I paused the video at key points and noticed that the line of his back from the head all the way down the extended leg was so perfectly straight you could have run a yardstick along it. Wow! Something I had subconciously tried to do but never thought was really achievable because there is so much high-speed motion. Yet he shows -- unconciously -- that it is very doable.

[pygmalion]

Thoughts, anyone? :wink: :D

[spatten]

I believe stage presence can come naturally. I was gifted with a strong stage precense, from what directors have told me, which helped me considerably in all the acting and stage work I have done.

However, I don't know that it correlates well to presence on the dance floor. I don't know if it is natural for the dance floor.


Scott

[Genesius Redux]

I have a bit of a different view. Stage presence does not come naturally, rather those who seem to have a "natural" presence learned so early that it appears natural even to them.

I agree with what's been said about confidence. You can even tell the difference between two very stunning technical dancers--the one who's done it a thousand times and comes with all the unspoken confidence of that experience is quite obvious; whereas someone who is "adopting the pose," however good the pose is, will also be very clear.

That confidence comes from a very clear intention--you know what you're about to do in a dance. What's more, you know that you have a number of different steps you can use--and you don't necessarily know which ones you'll use at any given moment. But you're alive in the moment and you know that you'll choose something from your arsenal. That is vey different from having a rigid and inflexible choreography. You can tell who dances according to pretty strict choreography, and who is comfortable making it up--even if they're not making it up at the moment. The awareness that things can change at any moment will affect even the choreographed sequences.

Your intention is clear in terms of two things--your relationship to your partner, and your relationship to the audience. If you're responsive, that will appear in a better sense of presence. If you're inwardly focused, maybe thinking hard about how to execute a step, then that will read too.

Presence on stage of any sort is a matter of attention directed outward, an awareness of partners, audience, space, energy, everything. That's why I feel that practice is the time to focus on technique and performance is the time to forget about it--not because technique isn't critical, but because it should be internal. There's nothing worse, in my view, than watching a couple practice when they should be performing.

So my suggestion to work on presence would be to forget all the technical things and be awake and alive to the moment.

A simple acting exercise can get you in touch with the world outside. Do a little mirror game with your partner. First your partner does something, and you try to mirror him. Then you do something, and he mirrors you. Next he starts again, and at a particular period (usually when you coach or your director tells you to), you take over and your partner follows you. And then, you try to establish a rhythm where you naturally shift back and forth--you're doing the exercise well if you can't tell where one person stops and the next starts.

And ask yourself why you're dancing this particular dance with this partner. Even before the dance starts--gentlemen, why do you even extend your hand to this lady? What are you asking? Ladies, what are you answering when you approach? If you can't answer those simple questions, IMO, you have no business dancing--however flawless your technique. You don't have to verbalize your answers, but you need to have the answers in the form of at least an unspoken relationship.

When your partner turns you out, or when he lifts you, what's going on?

That kind of presence isn't something that you have. It's something that you give.

Hope this is all at least semi-lucid!

Cheers,

Genesius

[Chris Stratton]

My wife and I buy lots of videos and watch them every chance we get. We'll slow down the action, pause it to look at body lines and footwork, and use replays to see specific details of head movements and all the other factors. We've made all kinds of great improvements from this approach.

I don't know about in latin, but in standard the benefits of doing this are mixed with some very real, and very serious dangers.

A lot of the look of high level dancing is not done the way you would assume just by looking at it. As a result, some of the most objectionable faults seen at comps come from people who might otherwise look like strong amateurs trying - and failing - to immitate the look of the pros.

I'm talking about things like follower shape taken from the waist, breaking sides to give the appearence of sway, distorting bodies to take bigger steps, and of course the all time favorite - choregoraphy far beyond one's capabilities.

I won't say it's impossible to learn 'the look' from a video, but I do think it's important to figure out how the appearence one sees is created in a way that adheres to all the fundamental rules of posture, connection, and balance. Analyzing the stills in detail as Adwiz does is certainly better than just going by one's memory of what something looked like.

[Genesius Redux]

A lot of the look of high level dancing is not done the way you would assume just by looking at it. As a result, some of the most objectionable faults seen at comps come from people who might otherwise look like strong amateurs trying - and failing - to immitate the look of the pros.

I'm talking about things like follower shape taken from the waist, breaking sides to give the appearence of sway, distorting bodies to take bigger steps, and of course the all time favorite - choregoraphy far beyond one's capabilities.

I agree completely--that look is a reflection of technique. But I also feel rather strongly that presence is different from look. Presence means just what it says--the state of being in the moment. A dancer can be technically perfect but have no presence whatsoever, because s/he's on auto-pilot.

Not just amateur dancers but many professional dancers mistake look for stage presence. Anyone who's ever tried to direct a dancer knows this. :roll:

[spatten]

Adwiz wrote:

My wife and I buy lots of videos and watch them every chance we get. We'll slow down the action, pause it to look at body lines and footwork, and use replays to see specific details of head movements and all the other factors. We've made all kinds of great improvements from this approach.


I don't know about in latin, but in standard the benefits of doing this are mixed with some very real, and very serious dangers.




I do agree with your warning, but I would also add that in the right context you can learn a lot from watching the best dancers. If you have a good eye and know the right technique - you can figure out what the dancers are doing and learn how to produce the same--- which if often NOT what the book says to do, even in Standard.

Of course I always run my interpretations by my coach - very important!!! Sometimes I am wrong - but several times I have picked up on advanced material that nobody had bothered getting around to teach me. As an example take the bronze chasse in Waltz. Everytime I watched it on Blackpool tapes, I noticed a rise and fall that is different than indicated in the book and it looks better.

Perahps this is off topic a bit, but I also think you can develop a good eye by watching the pros again and again. Figure out what one couple does differently than another, ask yourself why? Which looks better? What is that guy doing with his hands in an sliding door? That kinda thing.


Oh, and yes I still think that stage presence can be natural. I belive stage presence is an almost indefinalble quality. You know it when somebody has it, and you know it when they don't. But I don't know of anyone the really thinks it can be taught - only mimmicked.

Thanks,
Scott

[Adwiz]

A lot of the look of high level dancing is not done the way you would assume just by looking at it.

An excellent point. However, if you already know some of those issues because of private lessons you can learn a great deal by watching the higher-level dancers. When you know that larger strides are not the result of ugly looking big steps but power generated from the stable leg's ankle then you can learn a great deal by watching videos.

The trick is to ignore the stuff you haven't learned yet and focus on the minute details of the stuff you have. In my case, it is watching how the world's top dancers do some of the basic movements.

I had the distinct pleasure this weekend of watching Paul Richardson and Olga Rodionova do an impromptu "basic Rumba" during a showcase performance. It was an unchoreographed dance to fill time using pretty basic Syllabus steps done at world class level. I can only dream of doing a Rumba that well. A wonderful display and a great learning opportunity for everyone present.

[Chris Stratton]

The trick is to ignore the stuff you haven't learned yet and focus on the minute details of the stuff you have. In my case, it is watching how the world's top dancers do some of the basic movements.


Good point! Actually, this is sort of an alternative to something a friend and I discussed the other day. We were thinking it would be interesting if they sold a video of typical couples in the 2nd and 3rd rounds at Blackpool. The idea would be to document the characteristcs that look promising to judges in that tradition, but are more in reach of average amatuers than the more complete development of the final round dancers.

But simply looking at the best and saying "I might be able to do this, but not that" isn't a bad approximation. Though you do have to either guess at the judge's priorities, or simply make your own priority & feasability decisions.

[Kitty]

But simply looking at the best and saying "I might be able to do this, but not that" isn't a bad approximation. Though you do have to either guess at the judge's priorities, or simply make your own priority & feasability decisions.

I did that kind of investigation by comparing my boyfriends dancing in the final, with the couple who got first. I was able to figure out some mistakes he made, and some things that judges valued more than his incredible style.

[mamboqueen]

Another good topic! What makes a judge look at you instead of the couple next to you? I'm working on this for my upcoming comp. I think it is hard to focus on showmanship until you have your steps and technique in really good shape. I mean, at bronze level, I'm focusing on making sure my feet come together, my upper body stays in position, my arms are doing what they're supposed to be doing when open, my neck is good and lengthened, my steps are long and sweeping. So, where do I find that nanosecond to show some expression? LOL. And what particular expression do you really show in smooth anyway? Okay, foxtrot, general smiling, right? Looks like you're having fun. Tango....my teacher will tell me to play the "hard to get" kind of game, ie., you repulse me, so I snap my head away from you (I actually think this while I'm dancing with him! Although he doesn't really repulse me!). I can pull off some decent expression in cha cha, swing and mambo, but rumba is generally where I have the toughest time. It's just not quite natural for me, a married woman, to be playing the flirt/slut with another man! But, I'm working on it!!

I guess if all else fails, it's good to look like you're having fun, right?

[pygmalion]

Rumba? Slut? No. Woman in love. Harken back to those days when you were falling in love with your sweetie, pull up a romantic thought or two, and have at it. :wink: :D

[mamboqueen]

Well, he tells me to vacillate back and forth. Actually, I hate to admit it, but slut is probably easier than love! *LOL* Remember back to the days when I fell in love. . . . oh, Jenn, twelve years, two kids and very little sleep makes one's memory a little vague over time.

[Warren J. Dew]

I think there are actually at least two separate things that can be considered part of 'stage presence'.

One of these is having a look which draws the eye - which, I believe, consists primarily of having good posture. If you hunch and slump, people will tend to look past you without noticing you; if you stand up straight, they will see you. Some people have such incredibly good posture that every eye will be on them even before the music starts.

The other is audience interaction - involving the audience in your performance, responding to them and giving them a feeling of involvement so they can respond to you.

I'd note that neither of these, though, constitute good dancing by themselves. In good dancing, movement is even more important than posture, and interaction with one's partner more important than interaction with the audience. Those are the things that I really like to see.

[Chris Stratton]

I agree with most of what Warren said, but I think there's also an even more elusive quality. It's almost like the ability to look like you are moving even when standing still - I think it's an "energy" thing of some sort.

[SDsalsaguy]

It's almost like the ability to look like you are moving even when standing still - I think it's an "energy" thing of some sort.
Presence?

[Chris Stratton]

Intention

[tasche]

Mambo Queen For the rhumba I think more of unrequited love than flirty slutty thing. I think that has more intensity.

Regarding wat Chirs is talking about. Some of the top ballet dancers have that "thing" about them like they could affortless step into an incredible combination at any moment. Body flight perhaps. Its a certian " I dont know what"

Perhaps because there is so much skill and technique in standing still that you dont think about. Certainly in ballet this is true and I could list about 10 corrections made to me in class based on my "standing" alone

[etchuck]

So I asked this question to my private lesson instructor (Dan Calloway, again for those who want to know). Essentially, one has to be able to interact with the audience. If you are doing a presentation, you want to make eye contact with your audience. Same thing here. So yes, you can/should smile and look out towards the audience if you're not looking at your partner (but you should still be wary of your audience anyway).

The other thing is to remember what makes your dances characteristic of each other. Stretch out your lines as much as possible. Move deliberately from position to position. Do whatever you really make your hip motion move (well, not "whatever" but there are things you can do).

[pygmalion]

So I asked this question to my private lesson instructor (Dan Calloway, again for those who want to know). Essentially, one has to be able to interact with the audience. If you are doing a presentation, you want to make eye contact with your audience. Same thing here. So yes, you can/should smile and look out towards the audience if you're not looking at your partner (but you should still be wary of your audience anyway).



So how come my dancing and public speaking thread crashed and burned?!? :wink: :lol:

[etchuck]

So I asked this question to my private lesson instructor (Dan Calloway, again for those who want to know). Essentially, one has to be able to interact with the audience. If you are doing a presentation, you want to make eye contact with your audience. Same thing here. So yes, you can/should smile and look out towards the audience if you're not looking at your partner (but you should still be wary of your audience anyway).

So how come my dancing and public speaking thread crashed and burned?!? :wink: :lol:

Well, I guess both public speakers and dancers would get more attention if they were naked... :shock: anyway...

[mamboqueen]

Well, I guess both public speakers and dancers would get more attention if they were naked... anyway...


Eeek! The last thing I want to see are naked swing dancers! I don't care WHAT kind of shape they're in!

[Genesius Redux]

Well, I guess both public speakers and dancers would get more attention if they were naked... anyway...


Eeek! The last thing I want to see are naked swing dancers! I don't care WHAT kind of shape they're in!

At least nobody would ever have to ask what "swing" means again.... :wink:

[pygmalion]

Swing? :roll: :lol: :lol:

[mamboqueen]

I'm sure there would be a lot more dance-related injuries. Maybe a new line of medical practice, for that matter!

Gosh, you could go lots of places with this topic, but I think I'll just go home and cook dinner for my kids!

[pygmalion]

Good idea, mamboqueen. It only deteriorates from here! :wink: :lol:

[dancerdol]

Bumping up this thread- I have had some feedback recently on my dancing - I seem to have a lot more "presence" "showmanship" etc. in my Open Bronze and Silver dancing (1st and 2nd place) from the judge and audience feedback in my last two comps then in my Closed Silver dancing where I'm not making Finals in Scholarship. I think of the definition of presence in competitive ballroom dancing similar to stage presence for an actor - the technique should be a given - it's the choice of costume, attitude on and off the floor, energy, personality, engagement and interaction "connection" with my Pro and the audience, spontanaeity even within the choreography, everything coming together to make a performance watchable and memorable. I find it is much easier to "perform" in Open (I've also been dancing these routines for a year longer then the Closed) - striving to now bring this same joie de vivre and confidence to Closed. Anyone else facing similar challenges? Or already moved past this point and have some advice? Thanks!

[fascination]

I think there are lots of factors...even somtimes what we think is in play actually isn't...sometimes the competition is steeper in closed silver...sometimes things vary due to a panel or from comp to comp....for me, showmanship is the easy part......I do think open choreo allows one to really milk it...but I also think that if you can do that in closed silver it has even greater impact because it isn't found there as often......I don't know that I find it harder in closed silver...I find it harder in any routines that are newer...I think it takes a long time to know something so well that alot of the spontaneity of how you want to play it has the freedom to come out...in my silver, I know it...cold...I know how to handle whatever is going to happen on the floor to interrupt it......in my open, I have has less time with how we are going to navigate traffic or pick up from where we left off or shorten a side or whatever, I have to be much more clear-headed...with my closed, I can just go out there and sell and experience the dance...so I think for me it isn't the level, but the degree of comfort with the material that is most conducive to that aspect.....I also think that in the silver, because I am very very comfortable with the degree of technical info I have, I don't feel like I need more to shine and I feel very comfortable using what I've got...in gold/open, I have much more to do and some time to go before I am so solid on that ...and am able to let the best of the fun part of selling it really come out to play consistantly....for me, that is more about the amount of time put in with it than the level

[fascination]

let me add: I have seen you dance...and I think your showmanship is a strong suit...

[dancerdol]

Thanks fasc - I appreciate the compliment and your overall comments are great for the entire forum. I agree that experience with the routines makes a difference - I've been dancing the Open Silver routines (they are upgraded from my Open Bronze) twice as long as the Closed Silver and maybe I just need to work harder at my dance position and be patient. : ) I noticed that I have the opposite challenge then you do - I can navigate any traffic etc. in my Open routines - I'm like "bring it on!!!" LOL

[debmc]

So is there a difference between the showmanship we should be demonstrating when we are doing closed syllabus vs open routines? Should closed routines be more about demonstrating clean technique with the syllabus steps, and open be about adding artistry and performance as well?

[fascination]

I don't see a difference in amount btwn levels debMC...in either, without technique, you aren't getting far...IMO

dancerdol...yes, I have noticed that where there is uncertainty, bad things start happening to posture and technique....

[dancerdol]

So the moral of the story - be certain and have great technique! Then you will have the confidence to add the artistry and showmanship!

[pygmalion]

Wow. That doesn't sound simple at all.

[ajiboyet]

Oh, of course it is! Just have great technique, that's all! LOL!!!

[pygmalion]

You know what, though? (Been thinking about this when I shoulda been sleeping ...) I'm not sure that I agree that good technique and confidence are the only ingredients. I think they are both important ingredients, but ...

This is going to sound random, but bear with me. I remember a band competition I participated in in high school -- tenth grade, I think? We played an incredibly challenging piece (for me, at least. Flute was my third instrument and I hadn't been playing very long.) We were out-manned by people from places like Texas, where I live now, where band is right up there with God and country.

We worked on the piece for months (WHY am I not able to remember the name of that piece?) And .. for a couple weeks before the competition, we worked on posture and breathing together, on holding our instruments up and putting them down in unison, on not doing anything tacky with the spit valves, on making sure our ridiculous-looking uniforms were absolutely perfect - well-fitting, pressed, etc.

None of these little details had anything to do with our technique, although you could probably make a good argument that they added to our confidence. I played flute and I played flute badly. But ... IIRC (and it's been a billion years since I started this thread, so I may not remember what the heck I was talking about ...) what I was getting at with my original question was, what specific steps can a dancer take to create a feeling, in ones audience, that one has stage presence, regardless of level of technical development?

I think many of us have seen beginning dancers doing a first or second showcase and light up the room. I know I have. I think some of us may also have seen very experienced dancers dance beautifully but get a lukewarm audience response. Why? What is the difference? That is what I was trying to get at. Nebulous, I know. :oops:

[Joe]

places like Texas, where I live now, where band is right up there with God and country
But somewhere below guns and football. ;)

[fascination]

my responses are to the specific new inquiry of dancerdol...who already has that intangible quality...but it seems to be dimmed or enhanced depending upon other challenges

as to the very original question, if we do want to go back there....

I think that is internal, and I think it is something that a person either allows or doesn't..I think it is a very difficult thing to have to learn to produce because I think it is the business of one's spirit

[Bailamosdance]

But somewhere below guns and football. ;)

pushing the 'like' button on this answer!!

[pygmalion]

I think that is internal, and I think it is something that a person either allows or doesn't..I think it is a very difficult thing to have to learn to produce because I think it is the business of one's spirit


That's an intriguing answer. Must ponder before I reply. :-)

[dancerdol]

I have been going back to DF threads and also asking judges, pros etc. how they define presence. I do think that some people have "it" but, I am also convinced that you can enhance it in yourself because it does involve all of the elements pygmalion described and what fasc said also. It's being authentic about who you are in your choreography, your costume, your partnership and also understanding what you bring to your dancing - amplifying your own inner light. It's your friendly non-arrogant engagement with your fellow dancers in the on deck area, it is the stillness in your heart and body before the music starts, it is your genuine reaction to your partner and the music that we see and it is engaging an audience to watch you and follow your dancing as a "story" One of the main points judges, coaches and top pros said is to LOOK at the audience - spot your turns - don't have "shark eyes" that roll up into your head - smile with your whole face and don't use fake ballroom expressions. Show us you truly LOVE to dance and you will have more presence - no matter what is your level of experience and technique. Of course, the more technique you have certainly the more you can add light and shade, nuances, moments of stretch and pauses that make us feel the emotion. Marianne Nichol said on a coaching - you start a movement and it is point A - then you end the movement or pattern at C - But, the dancing happens during B - show me B and take me along for the journey. To me - that is presence - you are engaged with this dancing couple and you want to watch to see what happens next with the flow

[fascination]

I totally agree dancerdol...I want to be clear...I think all people have "it"...I just think that not all people allow "it" to come out and play...and I think that is largely spiritual work...thinking about what inhibits that, etc...and that is a very difficult and personalized journey so it is very hard for someone to teach anyone that.... maybe counsel them toward how to do that in a way that has integrity, but otherwise, very difficult to teach...only to facilitate as a mentor, by listening to why it currently isn't there...

[pygmalion]

I hear you, f. Very hard to teach.

I'm thinking of some (not ballroom, but still) celebrities who at least claim to be very, very shy and who have gigantic stage presence. Eric Clapton comes to mind. His stage presence is HUGE. I remember seeing him in concert. His presence is HUGE. He walked onto the stage of a roughly 20-thousand person venue where I saw him and (I am not making this up) created silence in the audience without saying a word. I've seen him do a couple interviews (I don't think he does them anymore.) To hear him tell it, he's just a shy guy. So what the heck does he do when he walks on stage? I'm sure the Varilights probably help, but he's doing something that his handlers taught him. THAT's what I'm getting at.


I also remember seeing Jill Sobule ( a folksy singer from the late 80s/early 90s. Does she still record? Dunno.) Anyway. I saw her at a tiny venue on South Street in Philly -- a converted single screen movie theater that may have had 300 seats. Same thing. Everybody was rowdy and chatting until she walked on the stage and silenced us with her presence. She didn't even say anything. Blew my mind.

ETA: No. At least in the case of Jill Sobule, I know it's not the lighting or any special tricks. I saw Paul Young (the British pop/soul singer) at the same place around the same time and he used his band, and lights and the announcer, and the audience still didn't shut up. (Great concert though! dang! He can sing and he's a great entertainer.)

[j_alexandra]

But somewhere below guns and football. ;)

Strewth.

[pygmalion]

Yeah well. Texas may suck, but you gotta go where love takes you. I'm in Texas because I loved the ex. I may stay because I love the Beau. It is what it is. What can I say?

And BOT. Barbra Streisand same thing. I've never been able to afford tickets to her incredibly hard to acquire concert tickets, but I have seen videos. The woman is terrified of singing in front of people, to hear her tell it, but she controls her audience.

How?

[GGinrhinestones]

I totally agree dancerdol...I want to be clear...I think all people have "it"...I just think that not all people allow "it" to come out and play...and I think that is largely spiritual work...thinking about what inhibits that, etc...and that is a very difficult and personalized journey so it is very hard for someone to teach anyone that.... maybe counsel them toward how to do that in a way that has integrity, but otherwise, very difficult to teach...only to facilitate as a mentor, by listening to why it currently isn't there...

I completely agree. Everyone has the capacity to bring the "it" factor, but what limits us is also limitless...it is imbedded in who we are and how much we are willing to examine who we are to bring that forward, but it is also in what we learn. But while it is a personal journey, it can be aided by mentors and, to some degree, "taught."

I don't subscribe to the theory for a second that someone either has "it" or they don't - it can absolutely be learned and developed (though, being such a personal journey, it can also be a painful process). My favorite teachers are the ones who remind me that there is no such thing as a "natural" dancer. There are people who have been dancing since they were born, so it is now natural to them, but even for them it was a learned behavior. My favorite teachers are also the ones who have the patience, creativity, and understanding to recognize what is needed to mentor someone to find "it" in themselves - rather than say someone just doesn't have "it." That isn't teaching - it's quitting.

[pygmalion]

Yup. I think people can be taught to access that part of themselves ... which is why I started this thread, 8(?) years ago.

[GGinrhinestones]

We worked on the piece for months (WHY am I not able to remember the name of that piece?) And .. for a couple weeks before the competition, we worked on posture and breathing together, on holding our instruments up and putting them down in unison, on not doing anything tacky with the spit valves, on making sure our ridiculous-looking uniforms were absolutely perfect - well-fitting, pressed, etc.

None of these little details had anything to do with our technique, although you could probably make a good argument that they added to our confidence. I played flute and I played flute badly. But ... IIRC (and it's been a billion years since I started this thread, so I may not remember what the heck I was talking about ...) what I was getting at with my original question was, what specific steps can a dancer take to create a feeling, in ones audience, that one has stage presence, regardless of level of technical development?

I think you are absolutely hitting on something here...having just come out of a lengthy conversation about "the finished look." Part of showmanship is very much something that can be "taught" - why else do we put so much emphasis on clothing, hair, makeup, nails, etc.? Because looking the part goes a very long way to convincing both the audience and yourself that you know what you are doing.

[fascination]

yep..some showmanship can be taught, some can be encouraged and nurtured, some is a personal choice to allow...if the last one never happens, the ultimate "it" will be missing...

[debmc]

I remember seeing Tina Turner in concert... recently, and I think she is 60-70ish now... amazing stage presence... she had everyone on their feet enthralled, even though she does not actually dance as much as she did when she was younger, she still absolutely had "it". I think when you have confidence, and lack of inhibition and a love for what you are doing, and the technique in place to back it up... you can let your true self shine. It is scary though, because you are revealing parts of yourself to the audience.... but when you see someone who truly has "it"...mmmm. I think it can be learned.. but in a different way, you learn it by developing the confidence, developing the solid technique and knowing that it doesn't matter who is out there... being totally in the moment... expressing what you want to say. That is my goal in dance... to get to that place....

[j_alexandra]

I think I have a different take on this issue. Showmanship can be taught; a good performer will have tricks that catch an audience's eye, and that's showmanship. At Dance Legends, Victor and Anastasia did a tango that was glorious with showmanship -- they had gestures that contributed massive, eye-filling, edge of the seat meaning to their dance, and kept the audience involved. Showmanship! I loved it. And I don't love their dancing, generally.

"It" is different from showmanship. "It" is charisma, presence, the quality in someone that makes it impossible to take your attention away from her. "It" has nothing, nothing to do with confidence or technique. I have to disagree with you here: I believe, fully, it cannot be learned. It can be freed, and that's where the mentor with patience, creativity, and understanding comes in. Yes, it takes guts to make that sometimes painful personal journey. But if you have "It," you likely will make that journey b/c the reward is very great. And, sometimes, b/c you can't *not* make that journey, and be whole.

Many have showmanship, whether innate or learned. Few have It. Very, very few.

[fascination]

yes...was trying to say this...and you did it so much better

[fascination]

I guess my disagreement is only that I think all have it but precious few are ever able to shre it

[samina]

there are definitely natural dancers...the same way there are natural singers and natural many other gifts. you can't learn to be a natural dancer or a natural singer... a gift is a gift.

you can surely develop your ability to dance or sing or...whatever...but natural is natural.

sorry...that's the way of life. speaking as a...very not natural dancer. or singer. who has spent a lifetime endeavoring to develop those "natural" qualities.

[samina]

I believe, fully, it cannot be learned. It can be freed, and that's where the mentor with patience, creativity, and understanding comes in. Yes, it takes guts to make that sometimes painful personal journey. But if you have "It," you likely will make that journey b/c the reward is very great. And, sometimes, b/c you can't *not* make that journey, and be whole.

yup. quite agree.

[fascination]

I have been called a natural at both dancing and singing...I think it is truer of singing....it has definately never felt like it in the dancing...but I have been told by someone I respect that I have something money can't buy...I hope so...singing required minimal training to let the "it" come out and also at a very nice level that people in the know would define as proficiency....but even being a natural may not be "it" ..."it" to me, is when a person lets their light shine....learning some things can create fertile ground for the "letting" it come out....

[samina]

true. this is a rich subject. strikes an intimate chord for me... long journey navigating this.

for a dancer, naturally, unself-consciously *embodying* and *enjoying one's embodiment* while shining that light with joy...very much part of that "It-ness", IMV.

[pygmalion]

Interesting turn of conversation.

Really nice summary, j_a.


Based on this, I would say that Jill Sobule has it. (Go see her. Seriously. I googled her. She still does concerts in the Northeast and Midatlantic. Wow.) Paul Young has showmanship. And there's a guy I saw at that same place around the same time; what the heck was his name? An acoustic/flamenco jazz fusion guitarist who made it to the top of the pop charts. What the heck was his name? He walked onto the stage, played his music, never said a word to the audience, never even made eye contact, and walked off. Worst concert I've ever seen. I seriously said to the guy I went with that we should have bought a CD instead.

So ... if you can't learn "it" then how can learn to access it, if you have it? And if you don't have "it", then how can you learn the tricks that, altogether, comprise showmanship?

[theAnnelis]

I have a pretty extensive background in performance...for showmanship in ballroom, I'd say use the audience as your third partner. It is incredible and it's SO easy to feed off an audience's energy, because they WANT to like you - they didn't pay for those seats to NOT be entertained. Use that! And have no fear. Like I said, the audience wants to like you - so they want to see you really live in front of them and not hide anything. It's totally different from everyday life in this regard.

[pygmalion]

You know what, though? (Been thinking about this when I shoulda been sleeping ...) I'm not sure that I agree that good technique and confidence are the only ingredients. I think they are both important ingredients, but ...

This is going to sound random, but bear with me. I remember a band competition I participated in in high school -- tenth grade, I think? We played an incredibly challenging piece (for me, at least. Flute was my third instrument and I hadn't been playing very long.) We were out-manned by people from places like Texas, where I live now, where band is right up there with God and country.

We worked on the piece for months (WHY am I not able to remember the name of that piece?) And .. for a couple weeks before the competition, we worked on posture and breathing together, on holding our instruments up and putting them down in unison, on not doing anything tacky with the spit valves, on making sure our ridiculous-looking uniforms were absolutely perfect - well-fitting, pressed, etc.

None of these little details had anything to do with our technique, although you could probably make a good argument that they added to our confidence. I played flute and I played flute badly. But ... IIRC (and it's been a billion years since I started this thread, so I may not remember what the heck I was talking about ...) what I was getting at with my original question was, what specific steps can a dancer take to create a feeling, in ones audience, that one has stage presence, regardless of level of technical development?

I think many of us have seen beginning dancers doing a first or second showcase and light up the room. I know I have. I think some of us may also have seen very experienced dancers dance beautifully but get a lukewarm audience response. Why? What is the difference? That is what I was trying to get at. Nebulous, I know. :oops:


Ha! Suite No 1 in E Flat. Gustav Holst. What a beautiful piece of music.


(Sorry. When I get that tip of the tongue sensation, I can be a bit obsessive.)

Anyway. BOT. What do you mean when you say that the audience should be your third partner?

[toothlesstiger]

It, presence. When someone has it, they engage you, you feel like they are performing for you. Their execution and confidence have to be good enough that they can focus on making love to the audience. You know people are looking at you, and you love it, and you turn it up a notch because that's how you respond to their attention.

I have watched dancers that have it. I have seen dancers lose it over time, when their confidence takes a beating in life experience. And I have seen some lose it when that particular style of dance stops being the most exciting thing in their life.

At the mundane level, it's there when a couple is having fun, playing with the music, confident enough in their dancing not to worry about perfect placement and timing.

[dancingirldancing]

I know people who I want to watch and they are not the best dancer in the room.

People has come up to me saying they love watching me dance yet I am always being compared unfavorably by my teacher to girls who are quite less showy but I suppose have better technique.

I am not sure whether talent has more to do with showmanship or ability to pick up great technique quickly.

[Joe]

This is unrelated to actual presence, but years ago I danced in a final where my partner and I were marked 1st in all dances by one very well respected judge, and 5th or 6th by all the other judges. I later asked her why she'd marked us 1st, and she said that we were the only ones dancing with each other, which I thought was an interesting perspective.

[ajiboyet]

This is unrelated to actual presence, but years ago I danced in a final where my partner and I were marked 1st in all dances by one very well respected judge, and 5th or 6th by all the other judges. I later asked her why she'd marked us 1st, and she said that we were the only ones dancing with each other, which I thought was an interesting perspective.

Interesting...

[dancerdol]

What an interesting thread and I'm intrigued by so many varying thoughts on showmanship and presence. Thanks Pygmalion for starting the ball rolling! Great threads never die - they stay in the archives for TC to find! :p

I think there are two different and valuable streams of thought for competitive dancers in this thread. Showmanship tips can be learned by watching and understanding what makes performances entertaining. But, showmanship can also be contrived like the example of being shy normally as a person and then you become a performer by putting on a sequin jacket and an act. The harder parts of "presence" seem to be how to access your own inner soul with more confidence and abandon to share some authentic part of yourself with the audience. One pro that I work with believes that presence is your inner light and you give an audience an opportunity to see into your soul for some small amount of time. I used to work in contemporary dance and the dancers would leave a performance wiped out emotionally because they used every ounce of their life experience - good and bad - to connect to an audience through their dancing. This is different then just putting on a good show. In ballroom, I think we do both - we perform for an audience and entertain but, sometimes - rarely but, it does happen - there is a dance that touches the audience and moves them emotionally because the two dancers true emotions were visible in how they move their body, in their connection to their partner and the audience and in their faces. This is when the dance becomes art. Much harder to do in traffic, in a competition setting, for 1 1/2 minutes of music.

[pygmalion]

Great threads never die - they stay in the archives for TC to find! :p

I think there are two different and valuable streams of thought for competitive dancers in this thread. Showmanship tips can be learned by watching and understanding what makes performances entertaining. But, showmanship can also be contrived like the example of being shy normally as a person and then you become a performer by putting on a sequin jacket and an act. The harder parts of "presence" seem to be how to access your own inner soul with more confidence and abandon to share some authentic part of yourself with the audience. One pro that I work with believes that presence is your inner light and you give an audience an opportunity to see into your soul for some small amount of time. I used to work in contemporary dance and the dancers would leave a performance wiped out emotionally because they used every ounce of their life experience - good and bad - to connect to an audience through their dancing. This is different then just putting on a good show. In ballroom, I think we do both - we perform for an audience and entertain but, sometimes - rarely but, it does happen - there is a dance that touches the audience and moves them emotionally because the two dancers true emotions were visible in how they move their body, in their connection to their partner and the audience and in their faces. This is when the dance becomes art. Much harder to do in traffic, in a competition setting, for 1 1/2 minutes of music.


Awesome and insightful post, IMO, dancerdol! Thank you. :-D

[theAnnelis]

What do you mean when you say that the audience should be your third partner?

Include the audience and play to them! They're a great source of energy :grin: Ever notice how even in the smallest comps, Riccardo and Yulia always enjoy each other and they love playing with the audience?