Looking Down

[Dancebug]

My partner has this terrible habit of looking down during both Latin and standard. He does not bend his neck per se, but his eyes are downcast, which affects his general posture. He was told over and over again to stop doing that by me and our coaches. But it seems that he cannot help it. He said he does that during Latin because he has to think about his move, specifically his hip. He did not have any excuse for standard. It is a huge problem for a competitive dancer. Does anybody have any idea how to fix this problem?

[SDsalsaguy]

Have you/your coaches told him where to look vs. only where not to look?

Maybe if, instead of being told not to look down (say in Standard) he knew to look at the seem between wall and ceiling? Just a thought...

[latingal]

I don't have any answers unfortunately, but I have the same problem.

I developed it in latin and have a really bad case of it. My pro has tried fining me ($5 every time I look down) and reminding me, to date it hasn't worked. I really don't like to see who might be around watching practice and look at the floor to avoid people's gazes. It soon became an ingrained habit. I have recently devoted more attention to it and know it will take a concentrated effort (not to mention a little more confidence) to fix.

I do not have this problem at all in standard. Since the followers head and eye position in dance frame is up and away, not a problem.

I'm just starting smooth and I'm pretty sure I'll have the downward gaze problem there too....

[HCMikeC]

I actually have this problem too, but more so in rhythm with any type of open breaks/cross body leads. I can really tell you why I do it. Maybe I am used to keeping eye contact with my partner when we're in closed dance position, but as soon as we separate, I don't know where to look? I worked on it during my last lesson. Hopefully I can shake it.

[mamboqueen]

Video tape him and have him look at it repeatedly (both as punishment and as a learning tool!). Seriously, I did it a bit myself and have adjusted quite a lot after constant video review. And I do agree that once he doesn't have to focus so much on his hip, he'll be able to focus more on his head.

[Shooshoo]

It just needs time and practice. When he gets better with the steps he'll be able to concentrate to look up.

[mr bixx]

put a pair of sunglasses on him and call it a day

[caityrosey]

Hmm, I'll have to check my videos and see if I do this.

I've noticed that some guys with much shorter partners have a tendency to do this

[Porfirio Landeros]

Have you/your coaches told him where to look vs. only where not to look?

Maybe if, instead of being told not to look down (say in Standard) he knew to look at the seem between wall and ceiling? Just a thought...
Good point... a way to help is to do a round of dances each time you practice where the only focus is to look at (connect with) someone in the audience (when you're not looking at your partner). Don't stop for any reason, and just make that be your main focus for that round.

[yanka]

I've noticed that some guys with much shorter partners have a tendency to do this

I'm shorter than my partner, and he was once told to look directly above my head. It's really disconcerting to me, bc I'm looking up at him and it looks like he's looking at me, but we're not making eye contact. I still haven't gotten used to the feeling...

[alemana]

behavior mod is the way to go here. don't analyze why - just force the correct behavior, in increments if necessary (first: alone with partner in a room with nobody. then, with one other person watching. then, with many more. etc.) video could be helpful in terms of shaming the person into better behavior/making them realize why it must be fixed.

[Dancebug]

Couple of you suggested video taping him. I am not sure that would help, because his looking down is subtle and it will not be so obvious on the video. As I said in my original post, he does not bend his neck, but just glancing down. So it does not look terribly bad, but if he looks up, it will help us look better. I would say that his looking down may not be noticed by some others, but his looking up will enhance our look. It will make us look a lot more confident and determined. At competitions, small things make a huge difference, don’t they?

[caityrosey]

Couple of you suggested video taping him. I am not sure that would help, because his looking down is subtle and it will not be so obvious on the video. As I said in my original post, he does not bend his neck, but just glancing down. So it does not look terribly bad, but if he looks up, it will help us look better. I would say that his looking down may not be noticed by some others, but his looking up will enhance our look. It will make us look a lot more confident and determined. At competitions, small things make a huge difference, don’t they?

It might show up on the video. The guy I am thinking of who looks down doesn't really bend his head either, but you can tell where his focus is if you're paying attention to his eyes--of course this will only really work if you can get a good close-up, filming at a distance won't help with this.

[latingal]

behavior mod is the way to go here. don't analyze why - just force the correct behavior, in increments if necessary (first: alone with partner in a room with nobody. then, with one other person watching. then, with many more. etc.)

Alemana, this is definitely the way I will have to go...although I have to admit to feeling a bit like a pavlovian dog experiment. Thank goodness they're not ringing any bells, hate to drool all over the dance floor....

[Ithink]

I would suggest you don't go overboard correcting him ALL the time - he can get pretty annoyed at that and become unresponsive. I would make sure I gave reminders every once in awhile about it but I wouldn't harp on it. Chances are he knows he's doing it (given your's and your teacher's comments about it) and is either concentrating on other things that need fixing or is trying but hasn't succeeded yet. Ingrained habits are very difficult to break so give him some space. I know I wouldn't want to hear about something I am doing wrong all the time, especially if I know I am doing it.

I am speaking from experience, BTW. My dance partner has had trouble maintaining a positive head position as well but harping on him about it constantly, I knew, wasn't the answer because it wouldn't do as much good as harping on other things. This was in standard and other things he's been working on lately have given his head position a much better look than my harping would have done. At least in standard, I feel like the boys' head position is often a result of other problems with posture in the body and correct movement and stretch. Fixing those is a good way to fix the head position as well.

[alemana]

i agree. i should've clarified that i don't believe it's the partner's job to behavior mod. it's the coach's. i would never do this to my partner.

[wyllo]

I agree with Ithink. My partner had trouble with his head being forward and no amount of telling him to take his head back fixed the problem. Learning which muscles to activate and better posture took care of the problem almost immediately (although it does sneak back in sometimes). Of course, looking down just with the eyes is a bit different, but maybe there is an underlying cause that needs to be addressed?

[Twilight_Elena]

I look down too. Try dancing an entire dance (forget about steps and routines, just dance as you would socially) and not look down. Harder than it sounds. It gets better with time, but he has to keep it in mind. I try to spot everything, not just my turns. It helps, because I'm staring at my partner, then we do a crossover and I'm staring at the wall, directly. Also tell him to stare a bit higher than eye level.

Twilight Elena

[Dancebug]

Ithink,

Very good point!

[redhead]

when I remember to not look down myself (guilty), I stare at my partner's forehead (not between eyes like they usually teach). Somehow it helps

[alemana]

yeah i'm guilty as sin on this one too in ballroom - although in salsa i can bore a hole through the guy's head with my Maria Conchita Gonzalez de Guadelupe Reyes y Palmas glare.

[redhead]

yeah i'm guilty as sin on this one too in ballroom - although in salsa i can bore a hole through the guy's head with my Maria Conchita Gonzalez de Guadelupe Reyes y Palmas glare.
oh how fun, I don't have a problem with that in salsa, but can't even try to look sexy in latin! It just feels silly. My coach has to remind me to not be afraid to look slutty, that real slutty look comes from technique - so if people whistle, you're doing it right

[musicchica86]

Funny, in standard/smooth I've always been told to look over the man's right shoulder, just above the horizon line...

[Twilight_Elena]

oh how fun, I don't have a problem with that in salsa, but can't even try to look sexy in latin! It just feels silly. My coach has to remind me to not be afraid to look slutty, that real slutty look comes from technique - so if people whistle, you're doing it right

Oh, my teacher used to tell me "Now I want you to tell yourself you're awesome and the guys are drooling after you." I was like, "huh?"
You're right, technique brings out a real slut. I had a guy drool after me because I did a cool arm styling and correct hip motion in rumba. So don't underestimate the sluttiness of good technique. It's one of the reasons good technique feels so good.

Twilight Elena

[cornutt]

Hmm, I'll have to check my videos and see if I do this.

I've noticed that some guys with much shorter partners have a tendency to do this

I'm only of average height for a guy, but there are a couple of really short gals at our studio. When I dance with them, I have to make a special effort to keep my eyes forward, even though I can't see them at all when I do so. It's a bit disconcerting to dance with an invisible partner. :shock:

[fire_dancer]

Sometimes if the lead responds well to getting into a character (like a follow's command to 'feel sexy') it works well to have him imagine the whole latin "machisimo" feel.... the "I'm so amazing, I'm not even going to look at you, I'm holding my head high because I am so amazing....blah blah" feel helps the guy keep his head up. Sounds corny, but it can work! (And when you catch a glimpse of him in the mirror it's like "wow!")

[lynn]

I notice that whenever I look down it's because i either can't figure out what the leader is trying to lead (thus trying to figure out by looking @ his feet) or i'm unfamiliar with my steps.

I think SD brings up a good point - ask the teacher where he should be looking @ - maybe the reason he looks down is just because he doesn't know where his head position is??

[cornutt]

Sometimes if the lead responds well to getting into a character (like a follow's command to 'feel sexy') it works well to have him imagine the whole latin "machisimo" feel.... the "I'm so amazing, I'm not even going to look at you, I'm holding my head high because I am so amazing....blah blah" feel helps the guy keep his head up. Sounds corny, but it can work! (And when you catch a glimpse of him in the mirror it's like "wow!")

That's a good suggestion. Another one might be to use a driving analogy: Keep your eyes down the road. You aren't going to run into your own nose. :D Helps with floorcraft too.

[RIdancer82]

Oh, my teacher used to tell me "Now I want you to tell yourself you're awesome and the guys are drooling after you." I was like, "huh?"
You're right, technique brings out a real slut. I had a guy drool after me because I did a cool arm styling and correct hip motion in rumba. So don't underestimate the sluttiness of good technique. It's one of the reasons good technique feels so good.

Twilight Elena

technical sluttiness..... gotta love it ;)

[Sagitta]

hmmm..

[SDsalsaguy]

technical sluttiness..... gotta love it
Ceratinly brings knew meaning to "getting off on a technicality," now doesn't it? ;)

[latingal]

Ceratinly brings knew meaning to "getting off on a technicality," now doesn't it? ;)

Ooooooh, that was a really good one!

:notworth:

[SDsalsaguy]

Thank you. :cool:

[RIdancer82]

Ceratinly brings knew meaning to "getting off on a technicality," now doesn't it? ;)

hahaha ..... now that was good! :lol:

Now I'll have to see how many "technicalities" I can "get off on" at the next competition.;)

[Joe]

If you can see that your partner is looking down in Standard, why are you looking at him? That means you also aren't looking in the right direction. :P

[saludas]

When you practice Latin, make the eye contact as big a part of the practice as foot pressure and body position. These things only work when they are involuntary - the magic of 'muscle memory' is not selective... your body 'remembers' all things, including head position, your fingers, etc.

If you make these things part of what you practice, then it will not happen in performance.

In Standard, your coach should not allow you to move unless your focus is correct....

[Dancebug]

If you can see that your partner is looking down in Standard, why are you looking at him? That means you also aren't looking in the right direction. :P
I don't need to see that my partner is looking down. I can feel it when he looks down.

Any way I think Ithink's point is very good. I am sure that a lot of things are going through on my partner's mind while we dance. A leader has a lot of responsibilities. Harping on this one issue may not do any good and create other problems. He will fix this problem on his own when the times comes.

[Ithink]

If you can see that your partner is looking down in Standard, why are you looking at him? That means you also aren't looking in the right direction. :P

First, it's possible to see something like that in a tape of a competition or a lesson. Second, it's possible to see it in the mirror while practicing and looking in the right direction but seeing a reflection in your line of sight. Third, in promenade position or fallaway position, the lady can see the man's head in her peripheral vision.

Finally, when the man has a negative posture like that, a good, sensitive follow will be able to feel it as well without having to turn her head to see it.

[Sagitta]

I don't need to see that my partner is looking down. I can feel it when he looks down.Someone who is so aware!! This is someone whom I wanna dance with.

[Dancebug]

Someone who is so aware!! This is someone whom I wanna dance with.
Thank you. (blushing...)

[waltzgirl]

Read somewhere that different people look in different directions when they are concentrating or trying to remember something--down, up, sideways. (It's supposed to tell something about your personality or how your brain is wired, but I don't remember what.) But I think it's a pretty ingrained habit, whichever direction you look. For a period of a couple of weeks, I did a bunch of practicing where the main thing I focused on was keeping my eyes on the top of the wall, even if other things went wrong. That broke my looking-down habit.

[RIdancer82]

Read somewhere that different people look in different directions when they are concentrating or trying to remember something--down, up, sideways. (It's supposed to tell something about your personality or how your brain is wired, but I don't remember what.) But I think it's a pretty ingrained habit, whichever direction you look. For a period of a couple of weeks, I did a bunch of practicing where the main thing I focused on was keeping my eyes on the top of the wall, even if other things went wrong. That broke my looking-down habit.

Looking upward and to the left or the right is supposed to tell if a person is using their creativity. The right hemisphere of the brain controls the more artistic and creative aspects of a person and the left side of the body (hence why left handed people are on average more creative), while the left hemisphere controls more logic type functions and the right side of the body. When a person looks up and to the right, they're trying to make up a story (ie. be creative) but when they look up and to the left, they're trying to retrieve already existing info.

For those of you wondering how or why I know this, I used to be a psychology major (not any more however) and I could be mixed up on the directions of the eyes, but the hemispheres and the sides of the body are correct. It's been a while since I took that class....

Oh and there's a movie out there that explains this type of thing, but I can't think of it at the moment....all I can remember is that it's an action movie and it's explained while someone's being interrogated or something like that.

[RIdancer82]

obviously, that isn't always the case.... just the general rule

[cantskiforlife]

I thought you look down when you get punished and up when you beg for food.

[cantskiforlife]

So I definitely have this looking-down problem. And I have it baaaad. I cringe whenever I look at video or pictures of myself.

Luckily for me, I prefer to be belittled until I get it correct. I told my partner to yell at me whenever she sees this. I know she doesnt though.

Best lesson I ever had was with Mazen Hamza. In a 1 Hour private I was only able to make 1 open left turn. His goal (what my coach told him) for that lesson was to fix my head. He definitely beat the hell out of my posture and wouldn't let me move an inch if I dropped any part of it. Needless to say I was sore as hell after that lesson and it has stuck with me a bit.

Call me a masochist, but I loved every second of that lesson and need another dose!

And speaking of posture and head positioning...it seems to have scared away my center. Has anyone seen it?

[musicchica86]

Go to Alec Mazo LOL. He'll poke a finger in between your shoulder blades and you'll remember where your center is pretty dang quick! Haha....I'm not joking.