The changing face of ballroom?

[fire_dancer]

JoeCZilla's 'right way to do a dance step' thread got me thinking....

Ballroom is always changing and evolving, and new moves and dance styles start to become the norm. A few months ago I went to my first competition and admittedly didn't do so well. What had puzzled me was that I was dancing old-style smooth (you keep your frame locked, head position in place, no routines, etc.) while the other couples were all doing what looked like "interpretive dancing"..... choreography, large expressive arm and body movements, looser frames, etc. An instructor told me later that the style I learned (rigid) was the old style, and smooth American dancing now is starting to loosen up and the judges are looking for more musicality and expressiveness to the dance (I'm in Bronze I/II). Has anyone else heard or seen this? :)

[JoeCZilla]

Seems to me that each judge should come with a cheat sheet.

"What I like to see" - By Judge Soandso :)

You could go pick them up a few weeks before competition.. hehe...

[fire_dancer]

I L.O.V.E. that idea.

[saludas]

JoeCZilla's 'right way to do a dance step' thread got me thinking....

Ballroom is always changing and evolving, and new moves and dance styles start to become the norm. A few months ago I went to my first competition and admittedly didn't do so well. What had puzzled me was that I was dancing old-style smooth (you keep your frame locked, head position in place, no routines, etc.) while the other couples were all doing what looked like "interpretive dancing"..... choreography, large expressive arm and body movements, looser frames, etc. An instructor told me later that the style I learned (rigid) was the old style, and smooth American dancing now is starting to loosen up and the judges are looking for more musicality and expressiveness to the dance (I'm in Bronze I/II). Has anyone else heard or seen this? :)

Sorry to be so frank:

I think that if this was your first competition, and you were dancing bronze, then you were dancing syllabus, and (no offense) doing it at a beginner level.

Your instructor was kind and generous when he talked about musicality and expressiveness - those things come from many years of higher level dancing, and right now you are doing all you can to do the bronze movements.

You have certainly not 'learned' a style - not in the few months or year that you have been dancing competitive style - but possibly a small tiny portion of the technique required to dance. And yes, that includes frame, posture, head position, etc. It'll take you YEARS to get that stuff automatic... right now, the combined effects of beginner movement, the LACK of frame and solidarity, etc, all conspire to make you look not very expressive.

[Porfirio Landeros]

I was dancing old-style smooth (you keep your frame locked, head position in place, no routines, etc.) while the other couples were all doing what looked like "interpretive dancing"..... choreography, large expressive arm and body movements, looser frames, etc.
I've advised a few collegiate dancers in the past on issues like this, where they think their dancing is too simple or not tricky enough. I assure you, that even in closed position, if you're doing the figures correctly, with the right posture, lead/follow, and technique, you can WASTE people doing flashy routines who don't show enough foundation. When I used to do syllabus and even when I started Novice, I didn't have smooth/rhythm routines and still did fairly well, because I was actually leading my partners... pre-champ and champ is really where I think you need to start getting into open routines.

[fire_dancer]

I don't doubt that I need a lot of work... I posted a thread earlier about the fact that my steps were taught to me wrong, so I really deserved not to place! (No argument there! :)) I was just making an observation that American smooth seems to be transitioning into a more free-flowing style.... maybe trying to distinguish itself further from International? Anyway, I don't doubt that I have a long way to go.... just wondering if anyone else is noticing the change from a few years ago. :)

[Porfirio Landeros]

My original instructors learned to dance in the 50's/60's, and they passed that syllabus onto the Cotillion students. What I noticed when I started competing is that what used to be considered silver in many cases was moved into bronze in the more recent syllabus. And some of what used to be gold was moved into silver. International-style figures and variations filled in the gaps in silver and especially gold. So, even if you're learning a 1960's syllabus, the same basic steps will be there, and there has been no formal change in technique... you should still be able to master the basics, rock left/right turns, promenade pivots, corkscrews, junior/senior (outside/diagonal) walks, and twinkles, and do pretty well in bronze competitions.

Now, I only hope your teacher isn't showing you these figures wrong... maybe taking a coaching session with an objective 3rd party would help (like going to a dance camp out of your town, since other local instructors may just be trying to talk you out of a teacher).

[fire_dancer]

My instructor was showing me the steps wrong, I found it out when I went to a coaching session with another teacher. I'm currently working with another teacher for the corrections to the steps I learned, and am just dancing with my old teacher for practice.

Frustrating :)

[Laura]

If your old teacher is teaching you wrong, I suggest that you don't even waste your time and money dancing with them for practice.

[Porfirio Landeros]

If your old teacher is teaching you wrong, I suggest that you don't even waste your time and money dancing with them for practice.Agreed! Or split the cost of the new lessons with the old teacher, so they can learn, too ;-)

[fire_dancer]

Tried that.... the old teacher just shrugs and says "I guess I've forgotten some things" when he's corrected, but doesn't take the time (or $$) to learn them correctly. I teach his salsa I class on Monday nights, so we swap time out (I teach for an hour on Mondays, so he dances with me for an hour on Wed.) while I'd like to find another teacher, my current one is a female and (while amazing!) is still not the same as dancing with a male lead. So while I find one that is cheap enough for me to afford (or an amateur partner).... I just use my hour of practice time with my old instructor to concentrate on the new things I'm learning. :)

[cornutt]

Reviving an old thread, which IHMO didn't get enough input the first time around: Since this thread was launched, how do you think dancing has evolved? The skirt thread and Fasc's comment about skirt styling made me realize that I don't see it in comps much anymore -- when my DW and I first started competing, it was fairly common in smooth. Some more things that come to mind:

1. The biggest thing in my mind is the evolution of steps/movement in American rumba to be much more like International: sharper movement, taller posture, more "aggressive" in terms of how it moves. We've talked about it a bunch at our studio, and a comment in another recent thread about how rumba looks so angular now got me thinking about it again. For the most part, I think it's a good thing; the straight-leg style has a much cleaner look and allows for a more expressive type of movement. And, the senior instructor at our studio says that in the long run, it will be a lot easier on everyone's knees.

2. I'm noticing some ECS dancers who are starting to dance ECS in a jive-like style. Unlike the above, I don't think this is a good thing at all, and if it becomes the trend, I may just stop dancing ECS in comps. To me, dancing it as if it were jive takes all of the "swing" (musically speaking) out of the dance.

3. The speed-up of foxtrot. Has anyone else noticed this? What would have been considered the upper end of the foxtrot tempo range when we started dancing is about the middle of the range now. The upper end is practically cha-cha without the triple step.

[and123]

heh. "tpyos", huh? :p

Yup, Peter Eggleton mentioned some of these very things at lectures he gave this past Sunday. Dancing has become too athletic at the expense of the original character of the dances. If you simply barrel through pre-set routines and don't feel the music and express it.... why bother? The heart, soul, and reason for dancing is then gone.

[cornutt]

heh. "tpyos", huh? :p

Yup, Peter Eggleton mentioned some of these very things at lectures he gave this past Sunday. Dancing has become too athletic at the expense of the original character of the dances. If you simply barrel through pre-set routines and don't feel the music and express it.... why bother? The heart, soul, and reason for dancing is then gone.

I know what you mean... I've noticed it particularly in quickstep, which has pretty much turned into a track meet. Now, a good run down one wall is fine, but when you go all the way around the floor... As I've told a quickstep dancer at our studio, "If I just want to see people going fast, I'll go to Indy." :p

And yeah, it's "tpyos". That's one of the two that I use. The other, which is for a related problem, you'll see below.

[mamboqueen]

heh. "tpyos", huh? :p

Yup, Peter Eggleton mentioned some of these very things at lectures he gave this past Sunday. Dancing has become too athletic at the expense of the original character of the dances. If you simply barrel through pre-set routines and don't feel the music and express it.... why bother? The heart, soul, and reason for dancing is then gone.

and then he went to dinner with Allan Tornsberg?? ;) just kidding -- I agree with the sentiment. I haven't even been dancing *that* long and I've seen the increasing level of athleticism -- esp in latin.

[latingal]

I think this may be just one of the inevitable "swings" of the pendulum. Too much athleticism, then swings back to interpretation. etc. etc. - in the end the best dancers end up then with both the athleticism and interpretation.

[mamboqueen]

At my age, I really need it to swing back ... *stat*!!

[hereKittyKitty]

I was talking to one of our former Latin coaches the other day. She Competed in pro International Latin in the late 90s through 2004. She talked about how much fun it was because everyone had their own since of style. We both agreed that now everyone looks almost alike in their dancing.

As for Standard evolving- I kind of like this. I would agree that there is too much hopping, skipping and running in the quickstep. However I remember watching standard on TV as a kid and getting bored. I couldn't wait for the Latin. Now its the other way around.

[NielsenE]

My views....

Smooth, seems to be pulling back slightly from the extreme shapes used by the late 90s/early oughts names (David & Olga, Micheal & Toni, etc). Personally I prefer that style., but I don't mind seeing the pendulum swing back. What does bother me is that I'm also seeing a pull-back in expressiveness. These two trends aren't necessarily linked, but they seem to be right now. To some degree "mediocre" couples could fake expressiveness easier with the extreme shapes. (Great couples are expressive regardless of the style/choreography chosen). These mediocre couples aren't playing with other aspects of the dancing to get expressiveness. I also agree with the comments about the amount of "closed" work -- I want to see more closed work, but I also want it to "fit" -- not "time for a wall of standard". I do want to see people continuing to play with alternate dance positions and innovative transitions, which also seem to be falling out of favor. I've been hearing some of the "its all been done, so whats new" mentality from some people... perhaps we're in a temporary lull while people regroup. but I'm also not seeing particularly "cleaner" technique so I'm really at a loss for what people are going for now....

Rhythm.... Aside from Cha Cha, I strongly dislike the internationalization of the style. Especially in Rumba.... I feel that the QQS phrasing and music tempo make the bent/flexed leg technique more expressive and tied to the music. The bent leg technique also seems more appropriate for the basic box versus a 'Z' and the more common foot closures. It helps to retain the softness and fight the sharp/angular motions that have been appearing in Latin. Now if you don't build choreography out of the more traditional American elements, I can see why an international action might feel more comfortable -- but then you've changed the dance.... not just the technique behind it. I agree with cornutt about the jivification of swing, but I think this is more "properly" blamed on music selection and tempo range. When I started dancing, I believe the tempo range for ECS was 32-36 mpm, with most songs played near the low end. The swing action feels much better to me at that end. Now USA Dance says 34-36 mpm, and NDCA says 36. At this speed the jive technique feels better... I'd like the see the organizations revisit the tempo... I'm seeing more isolated examples of bolero losing its characteristic rise&fall&flow as it too get latin-ized. However I need to watch more to see if its only an "issue" on couples recently crossing over from latin to rhythm, or if its an actual trend in dedicated couples as well