Question to pro-am dancers

[tanya_the_dancer]

Just a bit of background: I compete pro-am. I am also married and have been dancing socially with my husband and we were taking lessons together sometimes. I know I have improved in my dancing, however, my husband now complains that I became harder to dance with. He claims that is because I'm used to dancing with my pro. I am just wondering if anyone else who competes pro-am has received similar comment from their spouse/so or other people with whom you dance but do not compete.

[pygmalion]

Does your husband also dance with a pro?

[tanya_the_dancer]

Does your husband also dance with a pro?

He does not compete. He was taking some lessons by himself as well, and we were taking lessons together.

[mamboqueen]

Well, what does he mean by "harder?" What is different to him?

[fascination]

my husband thinks it is easier to dance with me now that I have taken so many more lessons than he...but then I dont dance with him as if he were my pro...admittedly, he feels some inadequecy...which I quiclky assure him shouldn't be there...

[tanya_the_dancer]

Well, what does he mean by "harder?" What is different to him?

He says I move differently now. I don't want to discuss this with him anymore, though, because these conversations turn into "this is all your fault" arguments. I was just surprised by this effect, though, because I thought getting better at dancing will make it easier for anyone to dance with me. Apparently not.

[Larinda McRaven]

As you end up dancing more and more with other people (your teachers) you will start to develope differently, more individually, rather than a couple. Why should, just because you are married, your dancing be the same as each other, any more than any other two people in the studio who are not married?

Even if you only ever danced with each other and never touched anouther body you would still develope at different rates and with different strengths and weaknesses.

The problem that arises is that we have expectations that our SOs should and will be our best partner. And this is not neccessarily true. Add on top of that the ability to criticize a loved one is easier sometimes than to criticize a stranger or a friend and you have a potentially bad situation.

If it becomes too big of a burden then the one good answer (and any honest teacher will agree to this) is that the couple only dance with each other and not do any single lessons. That is the only way for everyone to stay as "level and equal" as possible. This is unfortunate because it tends to stifle each persons ability to grow and flourish in their own way.

The best thing would be for everyone to accept each others strengths and weaknesses and enjoy the growth process for all.

[PureAbsurd]

He says I move differently now. I don't want to discuss this with him anymore, though, because these conversations turn into "this is all your fault" arguments. I was just surprised by this effect, though, because I thought getting better at dancing will make it easier for anyone to dance with me. Apparently not.

I can confirm that things like that are possible.
I know one girl who was really fun to dance with some time ago. Both of us had only a minimal amount of instruction in swing or lindy, and both of us had a background in different other dances, and she was a really light follow. Now, after she took some lindy classes, things changed noticeably. It feels like she is expecting me to lead some moves in a very certain way and because of this tension it's harder to relax and just dance.

[tanya_the_dancer]

If it becomes too big of a burden then the one good answer (and any honest teacher will agree to this) is that the couple only dance with each other and not do any single lessons. That is the only way for everyone to stay as "level and equal" as possible. This is unfortunate because it tends to stifle each persons ability to grow and flourish in their own way.

I have a feeling that this is what my husband would like to do. That we dance only with each other and try to stay as equal as possible. I have a huge problem with this because I would like to advance as far as I can and I know I will not be able to with this setup. And so far I have refused to do so.


The best thing would be for everyone to accept each others strengths and weaknesses and enjoy the growth process for all.

One of our problems we've always had since we started dancing together is that our mistakes tend to magnify each other's problems. You know sometimes one person will make a mistake and another person will make a different mistake, but they will somehow cancel out. In our case it has always been that my mistakes would make his problems worse and vice versa. And of course this always leads to "this is all your fault" arguments.

[wooh]

Both of us had only a minimal amount of instruction in swing or lindy, and both of us had a background in different other dances, and she was a really light follow. Now, after she took some lindy classes, things changed noticeably.
I think a certain amount of pressure comes from knowing more what you're doing. My husband and I never have more fun dancing than when we're screwing around with something we saw on tv that we know we are completely incapable of. Because we aren't focused at all on doing it "right." Stuff we know we can do well, we get frustrated with ourselves if we don't. If we don't know what we're doing, then the resulting mess we make is perfectly ok.

[saludas]

I have a feeling that this is what my husband would like to do. That we dance only with each other and try to stay as equal as possible. I have a huge problem with this because I would like to advance as far as I can and I know I will not be able to with this setup. And so far I have refused to do so.

This is easily accomplished. Either he takes lessons or you stop them.

[tanya_the_dancer]

This is easily accomplished. Either he takes lessons or you stop them.

I dunno. See, he wants dancing to be all about us, something we do as a married couple. I never saw it this way, at least I did not see it as our effort as a couple. It was more about me and how can I get better and what can I achieve.

[saludas]

I dunno. See, he wants dancing to be all about us, something we do as a married couple. I never saw it this way, at least I did not see it as our effort as a couple. It was more about me and how can I get better and what can I achieve.

BTW, I am not a psychiatrist, but I do enjoy making fun of them....

Anyway, here's one possible scenario:

Couples grow apart for many reasons - interests, friends, even education (as it seems to be doing to you here). Because you are the more educated in this area, you're chafing at the prospect of spending your time 'dancing down' and apparently he does not want to put in the effort or time to get better. You have few options,if he is not willing or able to support you in your pursuit of quality; in essence, he is making this an issue that needs attention if you want to continue your relationship. Really, this is not a problem if he is 'man enough' to see your needs and wants, and will support you. If he has issues with them, look to the future - do you really want to spend the next 10 or 20 years with this conflict separating you two? Because dance quality is addictive - once you start getting better, you'll be very unsatisfied with less than your best.

[mamboqueen]

Hmmmm.... that scares me a bit. I think you might be headed down a rather tough path if you can't find a happy medium (I wish I had your problem - my husband won't dance at all). Do you not enjoy dancing with your husband?

[Larinda McRaven]

I don't think it about enjoyment. Everyone can enjoy dancing with anyone if they choose to.

But the delima comes from the conflict of he wants it to be about "them" and she wants feel that she is able to grow to her own potential. Those two things do not always coincide.

[fascination]

am thinking about this...will respsond in the next two days b/c I have alot to say...just want to say it well...

[alemana]

does that mean we can finally enjoy an ellipsis-free post?!?!? :)

[DancePoet]

He says I move differently now. I don't want to discuss this with him anymore, though, because these conversations turn into "this is all your fault" arguments. I was just surprised by this effect, though, because I thought getting better at dancing will make it easier for anyone to dance with me. Apparently not.
Seems like you are in a tough spot. I can understand why you might not wish to discuss it. Yet if you can find a delicate way to approach the topic perhaps something good of it can happen. Unfortunately "your fault" statements can hurt, and are not productive in resolving the issue.

Hmmm ... I suspect you aren't taking lessons from the same dance teacher, but maybe you could have a confidnetial conversation with the teacher you are taking joint lessons? Perhaps that teacher can help by at least being aware of the issue and maybe the teacher can help through how the joint lessons are taught?

Best of luck with your situation! :friend:

[DancePoet]

I can confirm that things like that are possible.
I know one girl who was really fun to dance with some time ago. Both of us had only a minimal amount of instruction in swing or lindy, and both of us had a background in different other dances, and she was a really light follow. Now, after she took some lindy classes, things changed noticeably. It feels like she is expecting me to lead some moves in a very certain way and because of this tension it's harder to relax and just dance.
Perhaps you can offer to take a joint lesson or a few with her and work on the issues with an instructor? Maybe that could help. :)

[DancePoet]

I have a feeling that this is what my husband would like to do. That we dance only with each other and try to stay as equal as possible. I have a huge problem with this because I would like to advance as far as I can and I know I will not be able to with this setup. And so far I have refused to do so.
Does he want to dance am/am with you?

One of our problems we've always had since we started dancing together is that our mistakes tend to magnify each other's problems. You know sometimes one person will make a mistake and another person will make a different mistake, but they will somehow cancel out. In our case it has always been that my mistakes would make his problems worse and vice versa. And of course this always leads to "this is all your fault" arguments.
Yes, this is the way of dance, and yet if the two people realize that sometimes mistakes just happen and forgive eachother, then time can be focused on having a good partnership.

No offense, but it always bothers me when I see couples fighting rather then communicating effectively by listening and speaking in respectful tones. If two people can try to learn from one another, and try to be understandign of one another, neat things can happen.

There really isn't an easy solution to such situations and I hope you can find a way to work this out. :cool:

[DancePoet]

I dunno. See, he wants dancing to be all about us, something we do as a married couple. I never saw it this way, at least I did not see it as our effort as a couple. It was more about me and how can I get better and what can I achieve.
Yes, it seems you have identified a key issue. The expectations of what dance is going to be are different which will certainly lead to conflicts.

Finding a way for both of you to get out of it what you both want, finding a way to compromise, could be the key to finding a resolution. This can only happen through fair communication, and it might be possible with a bit of mediation. ;)

[wooh]

You said basically you want to get as good as you can get. Does it have to be now at all costs? My husband likes for me to do sports with him. But I am so much worse at anything involving a ball or running or well, a ball that I get frustrated. I can't even go bowling without getting frustrated, because even if I take a million lessons, his natural athleticism is going to keep him a step ahead of me. And that's just plain frustrating. And makes me want to quit, because what's the point of working at it if I will always be awful (and in comparison, I always am.) If we start something together, like we did with tennis, then I'm at least not always so deep in his shadow that I can have some fun without feeling like he's in the Major Leagues and I'm playing T-Ball (which is exactly what softball feels like for us.) But as soon as he started playing a lot of tennis without me, that killed it. I don't want to play tennis anymore with him. I have enough of a handicap without his adding in extra practice. So now tennis is his thing, instead of an our thing. And I'm disappointed. And if I had really wanted tennis to be an "our thing" as much as dance is an "our thing" then it probably would be an issue in our relationship. Yes, I'd be being a little bit selfish in trying to hold him back from excelling. But my perspective is he was being selfish by purposefully getting way better than me.
Perhaps if you make the sacrifice now of slowing down a bit so you can do this together (as he seems to want to do), he might lose the frustration of being the "lesser" partner and want to excel. And you can still achieve your highest level (just a little slower) without sacrificing your relationship.
You wouldn't necessarily be giving anything up, just slowing it down. A sacrifice, yes. But I'd give up a lot of things for the sake of my husband. As he would for me. (If I asked him to, he'd even slow down on the tennis so I could take some lessons and try to catch up. But tennis lessons would cut into dance lesson money so I told him never mind.)

[fascination]

does that mean we can finally enjoy an ellipsis-free post?!?!? :):tongue: not likely

[fascination]

Okay, Tanya...(just for you there alemana)...I can't speak to your marriage or your experience...but I am a pro/am dancer who dances MUCH more than my husband, but who originally began dancing so that he and I could look decent at social functions.

My first observation is that once I started getting a little good, even though I like to think I was delicate about it, I would get frustrated with his lead/frame or lack thereof...he wouldn't understand why I didn't get something and I became more and more certain that it wasn't my problem...again, trying to be gracious but not really succeeding...

Also I think a part of my learning curve was that as a very aggressive overachiever and as someone who liked how good it was starting to get with my pro, I began "helping" my husband to get better...and as someone who was dancing mostly routines on my lesson time...wherein lead and follow wasn't my primary focus, especially with the pro at the beginning....when I would go back and dance with dh, I continued to focus very little on following. I tended, rather, to focus on things I was working on in my lesson like, MY posture and MY lowering and MY foot pressure and MY balance and the position of MYy head etc...which wasnt a problem in a lesson because anyone can feel my pro's lead and he certainly knows where he's going as well...so consequently with a bit more confidence and knowlege and a lttle less focus on lead and follow as well as becoming more acclimated to my pro than my dh... dancing as a married couple began to be disappointing and not fun for either of us in the way that it once was when neither of us knew a thing.

I think is is understandable for someone to miss that, to want that back. It's sad that we dont know we are going to lose that when we embark upon the road to progress. Still I don't think it has to be a permanent loss, but like all growth we will have to devote more time to dancing as a couple, near to the same amount of time to it as we do to our pro/am dancing or at least as much as possible, or we will have to discuss the loss and find ways that we can dance that will be less frustrating (like just doing set choreography for a while or agreeing on some basic moves to avoid confusion or talking about which scenarios cause the most trouble...and I would reccommend that you do this when you are not dancing and have no intention of dancing...dh and I have chosen saturday mornings as times when we are both rested and can get together over a cup of coffee and discuss stuff while we are not upset over it...in attempts to understand each other better, problem solve...etc ...when everyone is well rested and no one feels threatened...I find it very useful...and lastly, I would make sure that you also do other stuff that is non-dance related before going to dance toether that puts you in a confident state of mind about your relationship before going off to dance...we all get nervous about potential stress and sometimes we can sabotage our efforts before we even start...I like dinner and conversation before dancing and good sex afterward;) ...just to sort of make the point that while we have room to grow in some areas, we are still very very good in others:cool: and that might be just the sort of reassurance that he is after....

dunno, hope some of this helps...pm if you wanna get specific...hug

[DancePoet]

You said basically you want to get as good as you can get. Does it have to be now at all costs? My husband likes for me to do sports with him. But I am so much worse at anything involving a ball or running or well, a ball that I get frustrated. I can't even go bowling without getting frustrated, because even if I take a million lessons, his natural athleticism is going to keep him a step ahead of me. And that's just plain frustrating. And makes me want to quit, because what's the point of working at it if I will always be awful (and in comparison, I always am.) If we start something together, like we did with tennis, then I'm at least not always so deep in his shadow that I can have some fun without feeling like he's in the Major Leagues and I'm playing T-Ball (which is exactly what softball feels like for us.) But as soon as he started playing a lot of tennis without me, that killed it. I don't want to play tennis anymore with him. I have enough of a handicap without his adding in extra practice. So now tennis is his thing, instead of an our thing. And I'm disappointed. And if I had really wanted tennis to be an "our thing" as much as dance is an "our thing" then it probably would be an issue in our relationship. Yes, I'd be being a little bit selfish in trying to hold him back from excelling. But my perspective is he was being selfish by purposefully getting way better than me.

Sometimes we guys are just too darn competive. We sometimes forget that the gals in our life aren't always such and that sometimes it is better to co-operate then compete. Now, in fairness, a gal doesn't need to feel as if they must compete, yet instead set one's own goals and feel good about accomplishing those. Hopefully the guys can be supportive in this and then everyone can be much more joyful! :D

Perhaps if you make the sacrifice now of slowing down a bit so you can do this together (as he seems to want to do), he might lose the frustration of being the "lesser" partner and want to excel. And you can still achieve your highest level (just a little slower) without sacrificing your relationship.
You wouldn't necessarily be giving anything up, just slowing it down. A sacrifice, yes. But I'd give up a lot of things for the sake of my husband. As he would for me. (If I asked him to, he'd even slow down on the tennis so I could take some lessons and try to catch up. But tennis lessons would cut into dance lesson money so I told him never mind.)
And interesting idea, as long as two people can have a constructive conversation about how to resolve their situation, then these types of compromises could be possible. :cool:

(Hmmm ... not sure I'd want to cut back on dance lessons for tennis lessons either ... ;) :lol: )

[DancePoet]

My first observation is that once I started getting a little good, even though I like to think I was delicate about it, I would get frustrated with his lead/frame or lack thereof...he wouldn't understand why I didn't get something and I became more and more certain that it wasn't my problem...again, trying to be gracious but not really succeeding...

Also I think a part of my learning curve was that as a very aggressive overachiever and as someone who liked how good it was starting to get with my pro, I began "helping" my husband to get better...and as someone who was dancing mostly routines on my lesson time...wherein lead and follow wasn't my primary focus, especially with the pro at the beginning....when I would go back and dance with dh, I continued to focus very little on following. I tended, rather, to focus on things I was working on in my lesson like, MY posture and MY lowering and MY foot pressure and MY balance and the position of MY head etc...which wasn't a problem in a lesson because anyone can feel my pro's lead and he certainly knows where he's going as well...so consequently with a bit more confidence and knowlege and a little less focus on lead and follow as well as becoming more acclimated to my pro than my dh... dancing as a married couple began to be disappointing and not fun for either of us in the way that it once was when neither of us knew a thing.
Another interesting perspective. So in essence, although things can start out for the same reasons, they can change, and then there becomes more than one goal which usually requires different ways to accomplish them. :cool:

I think it is understandable for someone to miss that, to want that back. It's sad that we dont know we are going to lose that when we embark upon the road to progress. Still I don't think it has to be a permanent loss, but like all growth we will have to devote more time to dancing as a couple, near to the same amount of time to it as we do to our pro/am dancing or at least as much as possible, or we will have to discuss the loss and find ways that we can dance that will be less frustrating ...
Ayuh, if we can recognize change, then we can adapt! :D

... (like just doing set choreography for a while or agreeing on some basic moves to avoid confusion or talking about which scenarios cause the most trouble...and I would reccommend that you do this when you are not dancing and have no intention of dancing...dh and I have chosen saturday mornings as times when we are both rested and can get together over a cup of coffee and discuss stuff while we are not upset over it...in attempts to understand each other better, problem solve...etc ...when everyone is well rested and no one feels threatened...I find it very useful...and lastly, I would make sure that you also do other stuff that is non-dance related before going to dance toether that puts you in a confident state of mind about your relationship before going off to dance...we all get nervous about potential stress and sometimes we can sabotage our efforts before we even start...I like dinner and conversation before dancing and good sex afterward;) ...just to sort of make the point that while we have room to grow in some areas, we are still very very good in others:cool: and that might be just the sort of reassurance that he is after....
Great ideas!

[alemana]

:tongue: not likely


heh. but seriously, you kept them to a minimum in that long post and it was FAR more readable as a result. as in, i actually read it, which is.... new.

so thanks.

[tanya_the_dancer]

Does he want to dance am/am with you?


Yes, this is the way of dance, and yet if the two people realize that sometimes mistakes just happen and forgive eachother, then time can be focused on having a good partnership.

No offense, but it always bothers me when I see couples fighting rather then communicating effectively by listening and speaking in respectful tones. If two people can try to learn from one another, and try to be understandign of one another, neat things can happen.

There really isn't an easy solution to such situations and I hope you can find a way to work this out. :cool:

We tried am/am last year, it did not work out so well (and not just from dancing perspective).

[DancePoet]

We tried am/am last year, it did not work out so well (and not just from dancing perspective).
I'm sure. And it's what is not working out so well from the non-dancing perspective that could be at the heart of the the dance issue. :( :friend:

[tanya_the_dancer]

You said basically you want to get as good as you can get. Does it have to be now at all costs? My husband likes for me to do sports with him. But I am so much worse at anything involving a ball or running or well, a ball that I get frustrated. I can't even go bowling without getting frustrated, because even if I take a million lessons, his natural athleticism is going to keep him a step ahead of me. And that's just plain frustrating. And makes me want to quit, because what's the point of working at it if I will always be awful (and in comparison, I always am.) If we start something together, like we did with tennis, then I'm at least not always so deep in his shadow that I can have some fun without feeling like he's in the Major Leagues and I'm playing T-Ball (which is exactly what softball feels like for us.) But as soon as he started playing a lot of tennis without me, that killed it. I don't want to play tennis anymore with him. I have enough of a handicap without his adding in extra practice. So now tennis is his thing, instead of an our thing. And I'm disappointed. And if I had really wanted tennis to be an "our thing" as much as dance is an "our thing" then it probably would be an issue in our relationship. Yes, I'd be being a little bit selfish in trying to hold him back from excelling. But my perspective is he was being selfish by purposefully getting way better than me.
Perhaps if you make the sacrifice now of slowing down a bit so you can do this together (as he seems to want to do), he might lose the frustration of being the "lesser" partner and want to excel. And you can still achieve your highest level (just a little slower) without sacrificing your relationship.
You wouldn't necessarily be giving anything up, just slowing it down. A sacrifice, yes. But I'd give up a lot of things for the sake of my husband. As he would for me. (If I asked him to, he'd even slow down on the tennis so I could take some lessons and try to catch up. But tennis lessons would cut into dance lesson money so I told him never mind.)

This is an interesting perspective. When we started dancing at first, years ago, I was the one who knew nothing about and he has had group lessons on and off before we met, so he knew quite a few steps but little technique, everything that went wrong was my fault, and if I were not making stupid mistakes everything would be perfect, so he said. I tried to improve my dancing by taking extra lessons, or rather, by not cancelling them when he was travelling and just doing them alone. It turned out that even though it is extremely hard for me to find the beat in the music (which is something he can easily do), in all other aspects my body is better at learning how to move, so eventually we ended up where we are now.

[waltzgirl]

I think a lot of us would subscribe to the axiom that conflicts with an SO about dance, are not about dance.

[fascination]

yep...doesnt even have to be your SO...its rarely about dance

[DancePoet]

This is an interesting perspective. When we started dancing at first, years ago, I was the one who knew nothing about and he has had group lessons on and off before we met, so he knew quite a few steps but little technique, everything that went wrong was my fault, and if I were not making stupid mistakes everything would be perfect, so he said. I tried to improve my dancing by taking extra lessons, or rather, by not cancelling them when he was travelling and just doing them alone. It turned out that even though it is extremely hard for me to find the beat in the music (which is something he can easily do), in all other aspects my body is better at learning how to move, so eventually we ended up where we are now.
Dance doesn't need to be about what is wrong, it could be about finding a workable connection. Approaching the issue from a positive standpoint feels so much better then blame and negativity. If one takes individual responsibility for a "mistake", and both people are doing this at the same time, it is amazing what can be achieved. :D

And eek ... the use of the word "perfect", bah!

Dance doesn't need to be perfect to enjoy.

(Hey DP, that last statement could be a good addition to your signature!)

Maybe.

[waltzgirl]

But to the extent that it is about dance, you probably could, if you wanted to, develop a style of dancing appropriate to dancing with your husband. I feel like, for every dance I do, I have two styles--comp and social. They're about as different from one another as smooth and standard or latin and rhythm are. My pro started me thinking that way. When I dance with him at a social, we dance social style--more relaxed frame (compared to extreme extension of the neck and head necessary for competing), no body contact, a somewhat different selection of steps, minimal arm styling (unless the floor is really empty), etc. And more playful and improvisatory--he loves to make up steps on the spot and see if I can follow them!

[DancePoet]

But to the extent that it is about dance, you probably could, if you wanted to, develop a style of dancing appropriate to dancing with your husband. I feel like, for every dance I do, I have two styles--comp and social. They're about as different from one another as smooth and standard or latin and rhythm are. My pro started me thinking that way. When I dance with him at a social, we dance social style--more relaxed frame (compared to extreme extension of the neck and head necessary for competing), no body contact, a somewhat different selection of steps, minimal arm styling (unless the floor is really empty), etc. And more playful and improvisatory--he loves to make up steps on the spot and see if I can follow them!
Oooh! This idea seems wise and fun! :D

[musicchica86]

And more playful and improvisatory--he loves to make up steps on the spot and see if I can follow them!
Glad to know my pro's not the only one that does that...:rolleyes: Half the time I have absolutely no idea what he's doing! LOL