Advice on teaching an ESL student [Archive]

lynn

03-27-2006, 09:09 PM

I was talking to a friend the other day and she mentioned a child she knows who's in need of a tutor. She immigrated to Canada 8 months ago but is struggling with English. Her family doesn't have the financial means to get her a tutor and they're really worried. She still can't read or write and is scared of going to school. I chatted with her for a couple of minutes today and agreed to spend 1/2 hour with her everyday so I can help her with her homework and English. The problem? It's been ages since I tutored!! Here's what I thought of so far:

- structure the "class" as casually as possible so she's more at ease
- do a little bit of reading with her everyday so she can pick up vocabs instead of memorizing them
- have her write a short paragraph (2-3 sentence) about how her day went

Other than that, i'm stuck....aiyaiyai, this is why i'm an accountant and not a teacher :confused: !!!

waltzgirl

03-27-2006, 09:41 PM

Does she speak English? Is it just reading and writing that's a problem?

Have the parents been in touch with her teacher or the school? If her parents are from another country and not familiar with the educational system, another thing you might do is help them deal with it. There may be some way to get her extra help from the school.

SPratt74

03-27-2006, 10:14 PM

Are there any programs like Education Centers that your student could go to that are cheap etc? I know that we have that here, but I live in a big city though. So, it depends on what your city has for resources. Also, figure out what her learning style is. That will make it easier for her to concentrate on what you are trying to say. I know that I have an A type personality etc., so my teachers have figured out how to work with me that way.

And I know that teaching can be tough. I taught college kids for two semesters when I was in my last year of school. I can't begin to imagine what your situation must be like, but oh how fun, and props to you for doing such a great job!

Mr. Dance

03-27-2006, 11:40 PM

Local libraries have alot of learning aids available to home schoolers and parents who want to teach their young children and get a jump start on kindergarden and such.

delamusica

03-27-2006, 11:58 PM

Having her write a few sentences about her day is a really good idea.

Other than that, start with children's books. That's how most of us learned to read, after all.

Another fun thing to do would be to go for a walk around town and read the signs and things together. Maybe even take pictures of them, and then at home you could practice writing the words that are in the pictures.

lynn

03-28-2006, 12:04 AM

Thanks for the advices everyone!

The major problem is neither she nor her parents speak ANY English (nope, nothing, zip) so it's especially difficult. Her parents work at minimum wage jobs and odd hours so they can't afford any kind of education program. This is really the reason why I volunteered or else I'd hate to see a child's future ruined b/c of my inability to teach.

Oh, i like the field-trip idea - that should be really fun! Now I kind of regret not getting any babysitter jobs when i was little!

amrimi

03-28-2006, 03:29 PM

How old is the child?

Was she already able to write and read in her own language?

waltzgirl

03-28-2006, 04:10 PM

With her parents' permission, I'd talk with her teacher. I find it hard to believe that, in this day and age, the school wouldn't have any resources to help ESL students. And her teacher should be able to give you some suggestions of what to work on that will help her in school.

aimerrouge

03-28-2006, 04:11 PM

- structure the "class" as casually as possible so she's more at ease
- do a little bit of reading with her everyday so she can pick up vocabs instead of memorizing them
- have her write a short paragraph (2-3 sentence) about how her day went

Other than that, i'm stuck....aiyaiyai, this is why i'm an accountant and not a teacher :confused: !!!

Have a conversation. Have your student pick a topic. One sentence in French. Then translate it. Have her do the same when replying.

Since your not a teacher by profession, I would suggest buying an "Intro to Speaking English" type book so you have a foundation and structure on which to teach her grammer.

Ask her want she wants to say. She probably has a few ideas of her own.

Remind her that no question is too silly and to ask as many times as she needs.

lynn

03-28-2006, 04:18 PM

aimerrouge

03-28-2006, 04:56 PM

She's only 10 so I'm thinking anything that deals with grammar might be too advanced for her. My goal is just to get her familiar enough with English so she can speak/read/write like a regular 10 y.o. - will take a lot of effort, yes, but just to get her motivated to learn on her own.

One quibble...

unless you'll be teaching her only slang and expressions like, "they be.." and "she ain't.." etc. you will be teaching her grammer.

Good luck to you. Your willingness to help her is wonderful. Hopefully she will get motivated to learn on her own. :)

lynn

03-28-2006, 05:12 PM

That's what I hope too - she isn't exactly the kind of kid that sits around and listen to me teach....*sighs*....

It would be fun teaching slang though :lol:! But I have no idea what grammatical stuff i have to teach - ooh, reminds me of all those things like Past Perfect Progressive or Future Perfect Continuous - i don't even remember what they mean....ahhhhhhh!!!

waltzgirl

03-28-2006, 05:26 PM

But I have no idea what grammatical stuff i have to teach - ooh, reminds me of all those things like Past Perfect Progressive or Future Perfect Continuous - i don't even remember what they mean....ahhhhhhh!!!

Don't worry. She's too young to have to worry about the names of parts of speech and stuff like that. But you will be teaching grammar in action when you explain things like it's "I go" but "she goes." But don't stress too much about that, either. When I was in grad school, I remember hearing that it takes a new language learner about 7 years to develop a fluent grasp of grammar.

lynn

03-28-2006, 05:30 PM

thanks waltzgirl & everyone!! You ladies have really calmed me down - i was on the verge of pulling out my hair...:oops:....

One thing though - how DID we learn about grammar? I don't remember learning anything specific when I was little - it seems that we just pick up "i go" "she goes" naturally!

waltzgirl

03-28-2006, 05:42 PM

One thing though - how DID we learn about grammar? I don't remember learning anything specific when I was little - it seems that we just pick up "i go" "she goes" naturally!

Our brains are hard-wired for a fundamental grasp of grammar, which allows us to absorb the grammar of our native language just from hearing it constantly around us. Kids' brains especially are pretty flexible. They usually can learn new languages more easily than adults. So the best thing for her is to hear a lot of English and practice using it.

She should watch TV! If she doesn't think they're too babyish, shows like Sesame Street would be good, as the level of language is simpler and backed up with a lot of visuals that would help her comprehension.

lynn

03-28-2006, 05:47 PM

She should watch TV! If she doesn't think they're too babyish, shows like Sesame Street would be good, as the level of language is simpler and backed up with a lot of visuals that would help her comprehension.

That's what I wanted to suggest but seeing how poor the living condition is, i wasn't sure whether or not they have cable connection (or even a TV). Besides, I don't want the girl to be addicted to TV at such a young age - which is why I stick to the old fashioned way - books ;) !

waltzgirl

03-28-2006, 06:40 PM

That's what I hope too - she isn't exactly the kind of kid that sits around and listen to me teach....*sighs*....

There's an ESL teaching method called Total Physical Response. You accompany words with actions that illustrate them. If she's an energetic kid, she might respond to that. If you want to teach her nouns, you could put objects or pictures around the room and have her run around to touch them as you say them. Then reverse roles, she can say them while you go around touching them.

Here are some other resources I dug up:

http://www.esl-storybooks.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=2&products_id=94

http://www.everythingesl.net/books/

http://www.everythingesl.net/lessons/tpr.php

http://www.settlement.org/sys/faqs_detail.asp?faq_id=4000331 (free program for adult ESL in Canada)

Sorry I don't know how to post them as links.

Good luck! Let us know how it goes.

waltzgirl

03-28-2006, 06:40 PM

Oh, they posted as links automatically. Cool!

SPratt74

03-28-2006, 07:28 PM

She's only 10 so I'm thinking anything that deals with grammar might be too advanced for her. My goal is just to get her familiar enough with English so she can speak/read/write like a regular 10 y.o. - will take a lot of effort, yes, but just to get her motivated to learn on her own.

Oh my niece is ten! You would be surprised at what they know at ten years of age! My niece sounds so adult sometimes it's scary! But kids that age love art. Maybe you could buy some of those art books that help students that age. They have all sorts at Wal-Mart that you can get, and kids that age love those books! ;)

DWise1

03-28-2006, 07:49 PM

I would think that the local school system would have recommendations for how to conduct ESL tutoring.

We do seem to be wired to figure out the structure of our native language (AKA, "grammar") by hearing it and learning to use it. And, I was taught decades ago, that wiring seems to change around puberty, which is one reason why young children tend to pick up a new language more easily than an adult. Once learned, we just "feel" whether a given sentence is right or not. How did I learn grammar? By learning a foreign language; only by having to actually use the grammar instead of "knowing what sounds right and applying a few arbitrary rules when what sounds right isn't" (isn't that the way we all skated through high school English grammar?) did I finally come to understand English grammar.

Other than my foreign language studies, I have no background. But remembering back to the first couple weeks of high school German, we started building vocabulary by naming things; lots of "Was ist das?" "Das ist ein Bleistift", etc. Teaching the most frequently used words would be a good idea; lists should be in ESL materials. And showing her the names of these things in writing should be a good idea, so that she can start to associate the sounds and the words and get started on her reading. Children's primer books may seem too juvenile, but they are usually written based on the most commonly used words. Years ago, a friend's mother had volunteered to help tutor ESL and one cardinal rule they taught her was to keep everything in English; resist the temptation to have her share her language's names for things. I've noticed that when you speak a bit of the other person's language but that other person doesn't speak yours, then you will make whatever effort you need to to express yourself in that foreign language, but if that other person does speak yours some as well, then you tend to feel shyer; I felt it in Germany and a German told me that she felt the same about speaking English to me, knowing that I spoke German.

A friend told me about a friend of his who's doing missionary work in Russia or the Ukraine or wherever. The university students there learn English and, because a lot of American and British TV programming is broadcast in the original English, they watch TV to practice their English (like I watch and listen to broadcasts in Spanish). Their favorite show is Star Trek, in part because of the stories. But in particular, they love the original series -- because of his delivery and dramatic pauses, William Shatner speaks his lines slowly enough that they have enough time to figure out what he's saying.

lynn

03-28-2006, 07:54 PM

DWise1

03-28-2006, 08:17 PM

Quelle fromage!

No, wait, ...

pygmalion

03-28-2006, 08:25 PM

cheese? :shock: :lol:

So lynn, you're tutoring this girl? Sounds cool to me. No idea about the Actual language-teaching part, since I've never done that. But mentoring younguns is right up my alley. :cool: My biggest caveat is don't spend any money or at least minimize the money you spend. Learned that ... uh ... ffifteen or sixteen years ago, when I had my first experience with the Big Sisters program. Big no-no.

Other than that, is there anything in particular you want to know? :)

Sagitta

03-28-2006, 08:35 PM

Yup spending money is a big no-no though those kids try. Got to learn about the rewarding aspect of interacting and hanging out with a person.

lynn

03-28-2006, 09:16 PM

Quelle fromage!

No, wait, ...

something cheese?? oh, my, i need to dig out my French dictionary :confused: ......

lynn

03-28-2006, 09:19 PM

Other than that, is there anything in particular you want to know? :)

I'm wondering how to boost this girl's confidence - she's got 2 friends around when I'm helping her with her homework and they keeping on wanting to show off how smart they are (oh, well, kids...). I can't tell them to go home but I'm wondering how to make her not feel i dunno, overshadowed maybe, by her friends.

Thanks for the "not spending $$" part - i do have the tendency to spoil kids :oops:....

pygmalion

03-28-2006, 09:23 PM

How good are you at being authoritarian? If you can us that authoritarian voice, just say, "xxx's not allowed to have company during her tutoring sessions." Chances are she'll thank you for it, if she's being overshadowed by her friends.

lynn

03-28-2006, 09:26 PM

DWise1

03-28-2006, 09:33 PM

something cheese?? oh, my, i need to dig out my French dictionary :confused: ......

Stole it from an old, old "college days"-type movie with -- I think -- Peter Lawford and June Allyson. Someone was showing off her French by saying "Quelle domage" ("too bad"), but it came out "Quelle fromage".

SPratt74

03-28-2006, 10:01 PM

O.K., just got off my 1st tutoring class in.....i dunno 10 years :shock:??? The girl is absolutely talented in art!! Except she probably won't get a passing grade in English. She's also got 2 friends with her who were constantly yapping about how much they know....eh, kids.... What surprised me was the fact that she's got a French class! Goodness, she sure has her plate full!! Oh, boy, that also means.....i've got to brush up on my French :shock:!!!! Nooooooooooooooo!!!

Well, if she likes art, maybe get some cool art supplies to teach her how to write English, and when you are teaching her how to write English, say it with her at the same time! School can be boring, so if you make it fun, she may just want to learn more! Oh and give her a cool art project to do that involves words for homework! Like if you have her make a rainbow, have her spell out the word etc.!

waltzgirl

03-28-2006, 10:06 PM

i'm not at all - i'm the casual, big sister type, there's absolutely NOTHING authoritative about me :(! Also, I don't know this girl that well and I don't want to alienate her from her friends. It looks like these girls spend their after class time together until dinner time and it's strange for me (a new tutor) to be telling the kids to go home.

It does sound like you need to set some ground rules, or your time with her won't be very productive. If your tutoring sessions are arranged for a set time and length, you can ask that the other girls play together in another area for that time. At the end of the time, you could do some kind of group activity with all of them, so the other kids don't feel totally left out (it sounds like they are competing for your attention during the tutoring sessions).

lynn

03-29-2006, 12:32 AM

Thanks for the link & the advice - i definately will have to think about setting some ground rules. The problem is that there isn't any structure to our "class" at the moment - I go right after work, spend about 30-45 min. with her and help her with her homework and do a little bit of reading afterwards. It's difficult getting her friends out of the way because the livingroom is pretty small and there's nowhere the girls could go - and no, 10 y.o. do not stay quiet for more than 5 min. You're absolutely right, they're vying for my attention and is treating it like a small contest - I just have to think of a way to incorporate all these and turn it into a fun learning experience (good luck to me!)

pygmalion

03-29-2006, 07:02 PM

i'm not at all - i'm the casual, big sister type, there's absolutely NOTHING authoritative about me :(! Also, I don't know this girl that well and I don't want to alienate her from her friends. It looks like these girls spend their after class time together until dinner time and it's strange for me (a new tutor) to be telling the kids to go home.

Who arranged the tutoring sessions in the first place? Whoever it is can probably be enlisted to help. Explain to the person (parent?) that the other girls' presence is making your tutoring less effective, and ask that he/she find a way to get the other girls out of the way while you tutor. Another possibility -- arrange to meet at the public library or some other place, just the two of you.

lynn

03-30-2006, 11:26 AM

The person who arranged the tutoring session was our pastor's wife. We were chatting the other day and she mentioned this girl who's in her sunday school class but doesn't understand English - so I volunteered to help. Neither of us know the family that well and I don't think taking the girl out is a good idea - I don't think I've earned that much trust with the family yet.

The lesson went well yesterday. Her friends didn't show up and she actually started asking questions (yay for her!). I'm wondering whether or not I should tell her parents to let her drop French for now - if she doesn't understand what the teacher's talking about in English, I seriously doubt she can learn anything in French. Though I don't think her parents will agree with me. I did ask them why is it she's taking French and their response to me was "kids learn really fast and she's got good memory". It's true but keep on failing your French test really is no boost for confidence. I can understand that every parents want their child to be the next Einstein but the reality is, 99% of us are not and pressuring a child to learn more than she can handle will only backfire.....just not sure how to get my idea across....

But at the same time I'm reminded that children's brain are different than adults' - that maybe she could handle learning 2 different languages at once and if she did drop French, it'd be like losing the opportunity to learn something new......o.k., now i'm really confused...

cl5814

04-02-2006, 12:50 PM

If you are interested in brushing up your french (you get some benefit out of the sessions too), then write words (draw pictures or whatever) in english and french. Probably just the very basic words in french, stick to english mainly.
I learned the basic math calculations during primary school by having written the calculation and then putting it up in my bedroom so that i look at it constantly. If she puts up her artwork with the english and french words written on paper in her bedroom, she will look at it every day - maybe she'll have the opportunity to explain her artwork to parents in english; creating english conversation in household. You can change the words she is having difficulty with every week in her room, so things change.
Ask if she can write the english word of say "chair" and then stick it to chair with glue or whatever. Write "milk" and put sign on milk bottle. Parents can then learn some english as well and in long run they can take over the tutoring task.
Reading basic english books to her that you borrowed from library can help as well.
I assume you already do simple / basic conversations with her in english, mainly ask her questions and she has to answer the best she can. Ask about colors of things, shapes of things, basic food items, furniture in house, pets etc.

my 2c...

lynn

04-03-2006, 11:42 AM

Thanks! A lot of great ideas!

No, I haven't tried having a conversation with her in English b/c her vocabs are too limited for anything beyond "how are you". I'll definately try the stick-the-paper-on-stuff approach - sounds fun!!

DWise1

04-03-2006, 01:43 PM

But at the same time I'm reminded that children's brain are different than adults' - that maybe she could handle learning 2 different languages at once and if she did drop French, it'd be like losing the opportunity to learn something new......o.k., now i'm really confused...

With our own children, they learned English in our house and Spanish at their grandparents' (who were watching them every the day while we worked), and they kept the two languages straight very well. They very quickly formed their own rules of which language was to used where and with whom -- one day my father, who spent some growin'-up time in Texas, was visiting and used a Texan-Spanish expression and our son scolded him, "No 'Spañol in this house!", since this was the house for English. Our niece did the same thing in using Spanish with her one grandmother and English with the other.

At the same time, I tried speaking to our first son in German so that he could learn it, but because I was the only one speaking it he didn't pay any attention. He did listen closely to English and Spanish, I think because he could see that people were using them to communicate with each other.

lynn

04-03-2006, 01:54 PM

That's very interesting, DWISE, but I wonder if all children are that quick in picking up a new language. This child I'm teaching has been in Canada for about a year and I see her level of English is about the same as those who've been here for 1-2 months. It makes me wonder that perhaps hoping that she would pick up the language naturally just isn't working for her and maybe I should try the conventional way of getting her to memorize vocabs?? I'm usually against the idea of memorization but it does work with some people.

DWise1

04-03-2006, 03:08 PM

Well, my ex was born and raised in Chicago and she told me she didn't start learning English until she entered Kindergarten. If the child doesn't go out and interact with others who speak only the target language, then we shouldn't expect her to pick it up naturally. In our boys' case and their cousin's, they were exposed to both languages practically from the first day (I was about to say that our first son had to wait one year until we moved back out here, but then I remembered that my mother-in-law was visiting us when he was born).

Do her friends also speak her native language, or do they just speak English with her? If she's been keeping herself mainly with others who speak her language, then it would be hard for her up pick up English naturally. My hometown has a very large Hispanic population, such that in many areas only Spanish is spoken; you know when you enter Santa Ana because the billboards switch to Spanish. One place where I worked hired a new worker, a Peruvian who had lived in Santa Ana for 8 years. In all that time, he had not learned a single word of English. He had never needed to.

Vocabulary has to be memorized, but it doesn't need to be with vocab lists. Drills with naming objects or pictures of objects. What is this? I think I have heard of labelling objects around the house with their names as a learning aid. I learned a lot of kitchen Spanish (names of foods) at the dinner table because I had to know how to ask for something to be passed to me and to respond to someone asking for something. From object names, you can move on to object properties; eg, what color is this, how many.

Of course, I'm only speaking as a former language student who has no memory of when he had to pick up a language "naturally".

lynn

04-03-2006, 04:23 PM

Thanks, ladies & gents, i'll try the put a sticky on objects approach today and see how it works.

DWise1

04-03-2006, 06:57 PM

pygmalion

04-03-2006, 07:00 PM

Does anybody know where kids her age fit into child versus adult learning styles? Knowing that might help determine what approaches to take... I guess. :?

lynn

04-03-2006, 08:05 PM

PPS
And how to count off to start dancing.

Alright, let's hold off the dancing for now :shock: ;) !!! Besides, she's a follower, no need to count off to start dancing :lol:!

lynn

04-03-2006, 08:11 PM

Does anybody know where kids her age fit into child versus adult learning styles? Knowing that might help determine what approaches to take... I guess. :?

I think she's still in the child-learning mode - i just find it strange that all her friends who are in the same age bracket all seems to be able to pick up English pretty fast even without "outside" interaction - the most they do is probably watch TV and talk to kids in their class. I just noticed today that the reason why she can't read is because she doesn't know what each alphabet sounds like - she knows abc but she just can't pronounce them when they're in words - at least knowing what her weak areas are can help me find a strategy and target those areas!

DWise1

04-03-2006, 08:32 PM

I just noticed today that the reason why she can't read is because she doesn't know what each alphabet sounds like - she knows abc but she just can't pronounce them when they're in words - at least knowing what her weak areas are can help me find a strategy and target those areas!

That was why I had much earlier suggested accompanying the spoken word with the written. I can't even begin to remember how I had learned to read, except that I started early and was always ahead, as were both our boys. Our first son basically just started reading "on his own" (rather, he had gotten a lot of exposure all his life and figured it out pretty much on his own). I was a "whole word" type, whereas a lot of the subsequent reading programs have been phonetic.

To my mind, the problem with the phonetic approach is that a lot of English spelling is antiquated, making for a poor fit between how a word is written and how it is spelled. French is a bit strange in that there are many ways to produce the same sound, but if you see it written you can still pronounce it. Spanish is very phonetic. English is not (well, it is to a certain extent) and so you end up needing to recognize a word and its context before you can pronounce it correctly (eg, context -- pronounce "record" first as a noun and then as a verb). We've been reading English for decades and so it seems easy to us; consider the "I Love Lucy" where Rickie tries to read a bedtime story filled with "-ough" words that each sound differently (eg, rough, trough, bough, through, though, thought). At least it is so very much better than Scottish Gaelic!

There are still basic phonetic sounds that you can teach for the letters and some basic rules for pronounciation, such as the "silent e" that makes a vowel long. You could even use [close-to] minimal pairs of words to illustrate those rules, like (lousy example, but hey I'm being extemporaneous here) "cat" and "Kate" for short and long "a" being indicated by the silent "e" -- "sat" and "sate" and "sit" and "site" are better examples. Also, a single consonant between vowels tends to make the first one long and double consonants make it short; eg, "later" and "latter".

PS
Out of curiosity, what culture is she from? Does she already know the Roman alphabet (ie, do they use it in her own language?)?

pygmalion

04-03-2006, 08:59 PM

I've had a few interesting conversations with a Montessori teacher about that -- the whole language approach versus the phonetic approach. My take, all in all? With some exceptions, which approach doesn't seem to matter as much as making sure that the approaches aren't mixed. Of course, we were talking about smalller children -- most Montessori schools are preschool or early elementary, at most. But my teacher friend convinced me that one should pick an approach and stick with it. :cool:

lynn

04-03-2006, 11:09 PM

*groans* i complete forgot the fact she has to know vocabs in math too.....

Now that we've got a couple of classes together I'm beginning to feel that I need to go back to the very basic - she does not know what a vowel is and at times she confused "r" with "l" so I'm guessing she doesn't have the alphabets down 100% either.

DWISE, thanks for all those tips, I had completely forgotten what a long vs. short vowel is - I don't think I've ever learned those when I was little, or maybe I did but I just don't remember....

I was a bit torn when I thought of teaching her the phonetics vs. the whole word approach but I think i'll hold off those for now and just tell her the very simple phonetics.

P.S. She knows Chinese and I think she uses the Roman Alphabet in Chinese pinyin but they use it a little differently than in English so I'm not sure how much leverage there is - let's just hope she doesn't confuse the two.....

DWise1

04-04-2006, 09:53 AM

One of the things about learning to speak a new language is that the native language can get in the way. As my Russian prof (a linguistics prof, actually) told us, we have to shape our oral cavity (best name I could give it) and position everything and work the air flow, vocal cords, etc, in just a certain way to produce the target sound. When we already know how to make a different but similarly shaped sound, then that interferes with making the new target sound. Since their brains have learned to recognize certain sounds, this can also make it difficult at first for them to distinguish between the new target sound and the native sound that's confusing them. In a French phonology class, the text described how to make all the sounds in French and also had notes about problems that certain nationalities have with that particular sound and why, but I have no idea whether the same reference exists in English (also, it might be too technical for you to make use of at present). Just know that the confusion can exist and a bit of learning and practice can overcome it, but understand about it and work patiently.

The "r" and "l" in English are both called "liquids" (I forget the exact definition) and so are similar. As I understand, Chinese only has the "l"-liquid and Japanese only has the "r"-liquid, so they both tend to confuse those two sounds in English and very likely have difficulty hearing the difference. Minimal pairs might help (two different words that differ only in one sound; used to determine phonemes, sounds that distinguish meaning within a language -- "r" and "l" are phonemic in English, but not in Chinese nor in Japanese), because she'll have to listen for the difference between "rice" and "lice" (only one I could think of while rushing to finish up breakfast). Again, understand and work patiently.

pygmalion

04-04-2006, 02:17 PM

DWise1

04-04-2006, 02:36 PM

So even adults are capable of learning totally new sounds (such as gutterals, etc ) that don't exist in their native language?

Just curious. I've always wanted to be fluent in languages other than English, but was under the impression that some sounds would be beyond my grasp, as adult beginner.

Assuming no anatomical abnormalities, we are each capable of producing any sound in any human language. Of course, non-human languages may require non-human anatomies.

Have you ever learned to do a dance step one particular way, been doing it that way for a long time, and then need to do it slightly differently? Hard to overcome that muscle memory, isn't it? Or to learn an intricate new step or routine. You have to think your way through it at first and it seems like you just can't get it, but after you've done enough hundreds of times it becomes easier and even natural. Like with the egg-beater in WCS; one partner told me last night that she couldn't say exactly what it was but the way I moved my hands made it really smooth and comfortable and I was the only one "doing it right", but for me I was just doing it in a natural way.

It's that way with producing the sounds of spoken language. There's a lot to have to think about in positioning tongue, lips, jaw, pharynx and controlling the air flow just right (eg, there's a sound in Apache that calls for constricting the base of the throat), that it can indeed be a daunting task to have to think through doing all that at the speed of speech. So we have to practice, practice, practice and practice correctly in order to commit the precise production of those sounds to muscle memory. It can indeed be done, but it can take a lot of work. Of course, there are those talented ones who can compare their own sounds against the target and do their own self-correction, while the rest of us usually need someone to listen and tell us where we're off the mark.

Cases in point: actors learning to speak dialog in a foreign language. They're not learning how to speak that language, but rather how to make the sounds so that they sound like a native speaker.

For that matter, in the 30's and 40's Hollywood films would be prepared for foreign distribution by reshooting the entire movie in that foreign language. They would use native speakers for most of the cast, but the lead actors would remain the same and they had to do their dialog entirely in that foreign language. In PBS' biography of Buster Keaton, they showed him in a scene and then that same scene reshot in German. And one afternoon several years ago, I think on Turner Classics, they showed a Laurel and Hardy film that was shot in Spanish. Their Spanish wasn't perfect, but it was very understandable.

lynn

04-04-2006, 02:38 PM

Assuming no anatomical abnormalities, we are each capable of producing any sound in any human language. Of course, non-human languages may require non-human anatomies.

:shock: :lol:

But we could always go woof woof and bzzzzz like the bees...o.k., i'm now officially losing it...

pygmalion

04-04-2006, 02:41 PM

Duplicate post. Strange computer ... in more ways than one. :lol:

pygmalion

04-04-2006, 02:41 PM

lol. I was trying to resist the temptation. But what the heck. The anatomical stuff isn't an issue -- but those other abnormalities? *shakes head* Just kidding, DWise1.

Nice dance analogy, btw. Muscle memory counts for language, as well. Hadn't thought about that.

DWise1

04-04-2006, 02:50 PM

:shock: :lol:

But we could always go woof woof and bzzzzz like the bees...o.k., i'm now officially losing it...

But have you ever noticed a dog's or cat's reaction when we speak to them in their own language? Looks like, "Where did you ever learn to speak like that? I can't understand a word you're saying!"

DWise1

04-04-2006, 02:53 PM

The anatomical stuff isn't an issue -- but those other abnormalities? *shakes head*

"other abnormalities"? I don't know what you mean. Unless you're refering to my partner liking the way I do the egg-beater. [grin]

amrimi

04-05-2006, 02:45 AM

Ooh, I forgot! Basic arithmetic. Besides the numbers themselves, she would need to understand "one plus two is three", "six times eight is forty-two", as well as the common variations; eg, "equals" instead of "is", "three [subtracted] from seven" vs "seven minus three".

She should already know how to do the math, but she wouldn't know yet how we talk about performing the operations.

PS
And telling time.

PPS
And how to count off to start dancing.

I don't think she needs to worry so much about math terminology. She will pick that up naturaly in class since she already knows the symbols. When I was in the US as an exchange student I had pre calculus. In the beginning the class was more like chinese to me because I hadn't learned any math vocab besides some basic arithmetic vocab. But since I already knew most of the symbols in german I was able to figure out their english meaning pretty fast just by trying to pay attention to the class even so I didn't understood much of the class but I could still understand the equations on the blackboard.

lynn

04-05-2006, 11:32 AM

actually, i was telling her the vocabs for plus/minus/times/divided by...etc and turns out she didn't know any of those...*sighs*....

pygmalion

04-05-2006, 07:08 PM

"other abnormalities"? I don't know what you mean. Unless you're refering to my partner liking the way I do the egg-beater. [grin]

Hehe! I was holding it back! :lol:

bjp22tango

04-06-2006, 05:46 AM

"six times eight is forty-two",

Well, I guess 42 IS the answer to Life, the universe, and EVERYTHING ;)

Sorry, I coudn't resist.

DWise1

04-06-2006, 09:39 AM

Well, I guess 42 IS the answer to Life, the universe, and EVERYTHING ;)

Sorry, I coudn't resist.

A site that catalogs sightings of "42" throughout history, in nature, etc:
http://www.digitalthoughtsw.com/DTS/42/

Two that I had contributed (only one made it, but was probably submitted by somebody else):
On X-Files:
Fox Mulder lived in apartment number 42.
Fox Mulder said he'd watched "Plan 9 from Outer Space" 42 times.

PS
News item a little over a decade ago: To date (ie, at that time), astronomers estimated the Hubble Constant at a value of ... 42.
from the site above: "The REAL Hubble is (d / s) distance over speed of galaxies. As we cannot measure the speed accurately, the Constant is not known but scientists think it is betwixt 100 and 40, therefore it could be FORTY-TWO. "

Share and enjoy.

DWise1

04-06-2006, 09:40 AM

Hehe! I was holding it back! :lol:

But I do the "egg-beater" so well!

DWise1

04-06-2006, 02:12 PM

Another "42" sighting, though a sad one:

On one of the last episodes of "The ScreenSavers", whose cast had been reduced to just young geeks after TechTV had been bought by a gaming channel, one of them was wearing a t-shirt with "42" on the front and "Do you know where your towel is?" on the back. The others asked him what it meant and he didn't know either -- wardrobe had given it to him to wear. Finally, a member of the audience had to shout out the explanation and the cast just stood there clueless.

It's incredibly sad to see the next generation lose a valuable part of the culture. Like the young programmers who have no idea what a punch card is, let alone a punch-card reader, nor the story behind "exploding chicken heads".

salsachinita

04-07-2006, 02:40 AM

Sorry for the late reply, Lynn.

I can speak from *very* personal experience on ESL. I picked up English properly aged 14, when my family moved to Australia. Prior to that we only did English as a subject at school (as useful as other foreign languages taught in English speaking countries). The long & the short is, I ended up graduating top of class & somehow got nominated to home tutor to other immigrant kids during my uni years. Before you know it, I've been doing this for the whole decade

My bilingual aspects meant that I was sort of the 'comfort zone' (which they won't need for very long). I generally have a casual, big-sister approach & did the following:

- Reading with the kids, and ask them to extend the story. I allowed a mixed use of laguages to begin with then gradually reduced it to English only.

- I ask them to keep a diary of sorts, also in mixed form initially. Pictures allowed for younger ones.

- Grammar would be taught via correction of their works, then I would ask them to make up sentences using what they've learnt.

- Lots of fun games! The point is to get the fear factor out of their minds!

- Help them with their actual homework, to keep up to date with their school progress.

- Quite often I also spent time with their parents, to help them understand the difference in education systems (most parents from Asia are firm believers in ROTE learning & hard-nose discipiline). I can't stress how important this can be....

It doesn't take long for the kids to 'grow out' of home tutoring :cool: .

Let us know how she's going. It will be slow to begin with but she will 'take off' like you wouldn't believe. Have fun!