A question about dance direction...

[DensterNY]

Hi,

I've been learning and dancing Salsa for about a year now and I dance on the "2" which is all I've learned and see in New York. Recently, my girlfriend and I tried out a new instructor and I was very perplexed by what she was showing us.

From what little I know, most people start dancing to a song at the first 6th beat with the man stepping forward on his left (well assuming a basic step). However, this instructor insisted that we begin on the 2nd beat and I found myself stepping back on my left and basically had to reverse every step direction for turns etc... for the length of the lesson which I did get used to after a few minutes.

The thing that's perplexing me is that I know she knows her business, she's an accomplished salsa dancer and does tours and shows, but was this another style altogether or something? I've attended two well known and popular dance classes in New York and plus I go out to the Copacabana and see everyone dances to what I'm familiar with. I'm just wondering what exactly was I learning in her class.

Thanks,

Dennie

[thespina13]

All I know is this;

On2, it's common for the man to take his first step BACK with his left foot, and then back again with his right. If your first step is forward, that's because you're starting on 6, which you said you were doing. On2 refers to starting on the second beat, which is the other half of the basic you are describing. You're just accustomed to dancing the last half of the basic first.

On1, the lady takes her first step (on the 1st beat) back on her right foot, man stepping forward on his left. On 5, man steps back on his right and lady steps forward with her left.

[sweavo]

Hi,

I've been learning and dancing Salsa for about a year now and I dance on the "2" which is all I've learned and see in New York. Recently, my girlfriend and I tried out a new instructor and I was very perplexed by what she was showing us.

From what little I know, most people start dancing to a song at the first 6th beat with the man stepping forward on his left (well assuming a basic step). However, this instructor insisted that we begin on the 2nd beat and I found myself stepping back on my left and basically had to reverse every step direction for turns etc... for the length of the lesson which I did get used to after a few minutes.

The thing that's perplexing me is that I know she knows her business, she's an accomplished salsa dancer and does tours and shows, but was this another style altogether or something? I've attended two well known and popular dance classes in New York and plus I go out to the Copacabana and see everyone dances to what I'm familiar with. I'm just wondering what exactly was I learning in her class.

Thanks,

Dennie

Hi Dennie, are you saying the instructor had the men stepping *forward* on 2?

If so, that's what I know as "Puerto-Rican Timing" and should not be too much trouble for you as you can use all the same moves, just on the other half of the 8-beat cycle.

What I know as "new york style" on2 is men back on 2, forward on 6. This was really popularized by Eddie Torres and is sometimes known as "eddie torres style". It doesn't really matter where you start in the bar: when I teach, I start on 1 with a step in place, then back on 2 and continue in that vein. I heard somewhere that it's bad etiquette to start with the man stepping backward (though I reckon this comes from some dance that travels more, like Tango) so when social dancing I tend to start forward on 6... this is what many teachers do too, though I believe it hurts the student's appreciation of the musical structure to teach that way.

[alemana]

from another new york on-2 dancer:

leader starting forward on 6 is the technically correct way, but i think a lot of folks have more trouble finding 6 than they do finding 1, so they get a little lazy and default to starting at the beginning of a measure, rather than on 6.

as a follow, i will say that i really appreciate the leads who start on 6 because it feels like a nice little ramp-up into the first full measure.

as a student, i will say that i don't think what your teacher is doing is some big egregious error - if you like the class, just file the info away and do what she says when you're there, but do what you prefer when you're social dancing.

where is the class?

[africana]

from another new york on-2 dancer:

leader starting forward on 6 is the technically correct way, but i think a lot of folks have more trouble finding 6 than they do finding 1, so they get a little lazy and default to starting at the beginning of a measure, rather than on 6.

as a follow, i will say that i really appreciate the leads who start on 6 because it feels like a nice little ramp-up into the first full measure.

as a student, i will say that i don't think what your teacher is doing is some big egregious error - if you like the class, just file the info away and do what she says when you're there, but do what you prefer when you're social dancing.

where is the class? what she said :)

which was the most direct and relevant reply lol tho I've haven't heard of it as "technically correct" but the advanced on2 teachers seem to start with "6-7", I assumed it doesn't matter that much as long as one picks the right bar to match the correct direction

[DensterNY]

from another new york on-2 dancer:

leader starting forward on 6 is the technically correct way, but i think a lot of folks have more trouble finding 6 than they do finding 1, so they get a little lazy and default to starting at the beginning of a measure, rather than on 6.

as a follow, i will say that i really appreciate the leads who start on 6 because it feels like a nice little ramp-up into the first full measure.

as a student, i will say that i don't think what your teacher is doing is some big egregious error - if you like the class, just file the info away and do what she says when you're there, but do what you prefer when you're social dancing.

where is the class?

Thanks for everyone's thoughtful replies.

Alemana, the instructor teaches mostly in the Bronx but I took this class in downtown Yonkers. The instruction I've taken so far were at Razz-ma-tazz and Empire studios in Chelsea which teach the way that I'm accustomed to now. I'm planning on going to Eddie Torres' class at Lola's this Thursday.

Aside from the issue of whether you start on the 2nd or 6th beat was using different feet in these movements with this instructor and we did as Thespina13 stated... on the 2nd beat, the man steps back with his left foot, then back with his right foot for a basic. Usually, I'm used to stepping back with my right foot first for the 2 beat which was what messed me up because every turn changed.

For instance, on a cross body lead I normally open up, by turning outward with my left foot on the 8th beat then 2-3-4 with a right-left-right into a starting position. Whereas doing the other way the open up, back one foot then turn into the starting position was all done within the 2-3-4.

Its not a tremendous difference and perhaps a little versatility is good but its just been perplexing me.

[alemana]

i've been thinking of giving Empire another shot... i went over there while still more of a beginner and dove into some advanced shines class that basically ate me alive and spit me out. maybe it's time to try again.

[africana]

I think you should master starting in either direction, because not all teachers will start on 6-7, like in a shines class where every count counts (not a mistake ;)) including the 1, 4, 5 and 8 :rolleyes:

[sweavo]

Thanks for everyone's thoughtful replies.

Alemana, the instructor teaches mostly in the Bronx but I took this class in downtown Yonkers. The instruction I've taken so far were at Razz-ma-tazz and Empire studios in Chelsea which teach the way that I'm accustomed to now. I'm planning on going to Eddie Torres' class at Lola's this Thursday.

For instance, on a cross body lead I normally open up, by turning outward with my left foot on the 8th beat then 2-3-4 with a right-left-right into a starting position. Whereas doing the other way the open up, back one foot then turn into the starting position was all done within the 2-3-4.

Its not a tremendous difference and perhaps a little versatility is good but its just been perplexing me.

wow! razzmatazz timing - that's pretty rare AFAIK. Most timings step on 1,2,3...5,6,7... and the "on1" vs "on2" thing denotes where the break step is, i.e. whether you go

BREAK, 2, 3, (pause 4), BREAK, 6, 7, (pause 8)

or

1, BREAK, 3, (pause 4), 5, BREAK, 7, (pause 8)

Within on2, the leader will be breaking back on right on "torres" timing, or forward on left in "puerto rican" timing.

Or someone tell me if I'm talking crap here!

[alemana]

razzmatazz teaches power-2.

[DensterNY]

Well I had it clarified to me yesterday... its simply a matter of starting the song with a step on the first count leading into the standard 2-3-4, 6-7-8 timing as opposed to just starting on the 6-7-8.

Alemana, Thanks at least I know the name for what I've been doing.

[africana]

I was mistaken then. P2 ok I see, yeah that would be confusing to mix with ET2

[sweavo]

Well I had it clarified to me yesterday... its simply a matter of starting the song with a step on the first count leading into the standard 2-3-4, 6-7-8 timing as opposed to just starting on the 6-7-8.

That's not quite it - 4 and 8 will be pauses and 1 and 5 will be steps. I don't know power 2 so any further advice from me would be based on guesswork!

Some people "synchopate" the 5 and 1 so that they're stepping a half a beat early, then it really blurs the line between whether you are stepping on 4 or 5, 8 or 1.

[DensterNY]

That's not quite it - 4 and 8 will be pauses and 1 and 5 will be steps. I don't know power 2 so any further advice from me would be based on guesswork!

Some people "synchopate" the 5 and 1 so that they're stepping a half a beat early, then it really blurs the line between whether you are stepping on 4 or 5, 8 or 1.

Hey Sweavo,

Well, this is the difference between the power 2 and the other on-2 for a man's leader role basic:

Beat-Power2--------------On-2
1----Pause----------------Back Left
2----Back Right------------Back-Right
3----In place Left----------In place Left
4----Return to start Right--Right is in motion in a long step
5----Pause----------------Long step Right
6----Forward Left---------Forward Left
7----In place Right--------In place Right
8----Return to start Left---Left is in motion in a long step

1----Pause-----------------Long step-Left

As you can see they're very similar with the 2-3 and the 6-7 doing the exact same thing. The power-2 moves around the start position, feet next to each other and the other On-2 has a forward and backwards walk kind of rhythm. The important thing is that they're both compatible and you can do either one and still dance fine. The people I know who learned from Eddie Torres do the walking step and the people I know from Razzmtazz and Empire do the Power-2.

[africana]

I'm curious: is it harder to socially dance P2 in NYC? I mean do you find that a lot of women will backlead you into ET2 basic? Or is there a large group of P2 dancers?

[borikensalsero]

I'm from NY City and dance power2. I've never had a problem dancing with someone who does ET2.

Since I'm out having a blast at a club, I don't particularly care whether I step forwards or backwards on the 2, either. I grab and go, there is too much going on to put even more rules into the dance. Those who have ingrained in them to do otherwise, usually do the switch step and go back to the rule book. I respect their wishes and dance away.

The traditional method of latin dance is for the man to initially step forward with the left foot, when Eddie Switched it, I assume he kept it as an social norm with his dance as well.

[africana]

cool :)

[amo_dile_que_no]

Since I'm out having a blast at a club, I don't particularly care whether I step forwards or backwards on the 2, either. I grab and go, there is too much going on to put even more rules into the dance.

That's OK with more experienced dancers then? I find myself sometimes breaking back when other couples are breaking forward. I tell myself it's OK as long as your on beat. But, I also thought I might be copping out. When I hear people talking about starting on the 6, I'm thinking, I'll never be able to figure that out.

[alemana]

(i never notice the difference between a P2 and an ET2 lead, ever. i guess if i were following a really beginner P2 leader i might - if there were a LOT of basics - but otherwise, nah. plus, ballroom mambo = P2, so.)

[amo_dile_que_no]

That's OK with more experienced dancers then? I find myself sometimes breaking back when other couples are breaking forward. I tell myself it's OK as long as your on beat. But, I also thought I might be copping out. When I hear people talking about starting on the 6, I'm thinking, I'll never be able to figure that out.

on purpose, that is

[alemana]

oh you'll definitely 'feel' 6 soon enough....on2 dancers live and breathe "two.... six...... two..... six....."

:)

[borikensalsero]

That's OK with more experienced dancers then? I find myself sometimes breaking back when other couples are breaking forward. I tell myself it's OK as long as your on beat. But, I also thought I might be copping out. When I hear people talking about starting on the 6, I'm thinking, I'll never be able to figure that out.

yeah, don't worry about. There are a bunch of folks who don't care about the direction of the dance. As alemana mentions soon you'll breathe 2 and 6, as well as an array of other things that don't seem to make any sense of what so ever. hehe

[sweavo]

Hey Sweavo,

Well, this is the difference between the power 2 and the other on-2 for a man's leader role basic...

Thanks, that's what I thought P2 must be, what folk round here call "razzmatazz timing" and that nobody does in Old York, England :-)

As I originally stated, your first description of the conversion had the pause (=the long step) in the wrong place - but from your detailed explanation it looks like a communication thing rather than any problem with the actualy facts!

So any New Yorkers wanna comment on syncopation of the basic? Here in Old York we try to keep strictly to 1, 2, 3 - 5, 6, 7 - but many ET2 dancers including teachers in this country will habitually dance AND - 2, 3, - AND - 6, 7, - AND - ... i.e. with the long step shortened by half a count. I'll use this (or even a step on 8) for musical emphasis but it's frowned upon to let it get habitual. I guess if dancers were easy about this timing drift it really would be tough to tell P2 from ET2.

A secondary point is that the footwork is pretty much isolated from the lead, so I can easily believe followers fell no difference whatever - the key points are still gonna be on 2 and 6 on either counting system.

PT2 = on1, shifted 6 beats around the bar. I can see it working particularly well with a lot of the '50s music I hear but I'm now really used to being on my way somewhere on the pause!

Thanks for the description!