Ballroom guy tries AT

[cornutt]

I've always wanted to learn Argentine tango, ever since I had one lesson in it at Dance Camp two years ago. But we never had anyone in our town who could teach it.

Well, our club just hired a new instructor about a month ago, and she knows AT! So she started a group class in it. Last Thursday was the second lesson. So far, we've learned an 8-count basic that starts with the leader taking a step back with the right foot, then a left side, on to a crusada on 5, then forward-side-together. We've learned some variations with leg flicks and one with a balance step, and worked a lot on technique.

I'm enjoying it, but I do feel pretty clumsy. My DW says she feels like she's learning to dance all over again. One might think that we would be having problems with wanting to revert to ballroom tango. That hasn't been the problem. The problem is that we keep reverting to ballroom waltz. :rolleyes: We've had trouble with rise and fall in inappropriate places, heel leads, and wanting to do that darn balance step as if it were Viennese waltz (where you swing the leg back and forth without changing weight). Go figure. Our balance isn't right yet for the AT frame. But we're keeping at it.

[SPratt74]

I really got the hang of the 8 count AT. I like that better, but you do definitely need balance! I learned the hard way that I don't have any balance in me and I have no thanks to my Ballet training lol. I feel sorry for my poor instructors when we do AT lol. And yes it's hard not to get the dances confused. I still get confused about some of the ones I've barely danced to yet. So, I understand what you are saying!;)

[Steve Pastor]

You ARE learning a new way to dance. Or at least you should be.
This is from the site www.tejastango.com (http://www.tejastango.com)
Is Argentine Tango the Same as Ballroom Tango?

No. They started out from the same roots, but location, time and the ever evolving nature of dance have made them separate dances. The American and International ballroom tangos you may see on PBS, are very different from the tango danced socially in Argentina. Argentine tango is different from the ballroom tangos in its posture, embrace, improvisation, movement, balance, steps, and music. It's completely different from the top of your head to the bottom of the soles of the shoes you dance it with.
If you have a background in ballroom tango, just think of Argentine tango as a completely new dance—not as an enhancement of the one you already know."
I usually (but not always) can guess if someone has been doing ballroom.
If you want to try an experiment, tell your instructor that you have heard that social Argentine Tango is most often danced progressively around the room. Ask how you can fit the 8 count basic (and dreaded back step) into a progressive dance. This is just an experiment to see how she answers.
And "leg flicks" within 2 lessons? Although basics - ie technique - are boring to most people, you will find that the better your basics are, the more possibilities for improvisation will open up.
Please let us know how it goes, since you didn't ask any questions.

[ssjss]

I got it AT after doing ballroom for several years. It is different than ballroom in so many different ways and yes I had to break out of the ballroom frame. That was one of my biggest burdens. But to date I can't Foxtrot to save my life anymore, I'll dance AT instead. But I like the trade off. I still like and dance the Rumba and Bolero, but AT comes first. As far as V.Watz thats what Tango Vals are for.

[Peaches]

Way to go, Cornutt!!!

Be careful--I've heard of plenty of ballroom people who tried AT, got hooked, and never looked back!!! And, seriously, and AT addiction is so much worse (better?) than a ballroom addiction--next thing you know you'll be booking flights to Argentina! Sit back and enjoy the ride.

I would second what...somebody...said about leg flicks after 2 lessons. At this point, you really need to be working on posture, your walk, and listening to and feeling the music. Those are the absolute fundamentals of the dance--get those down and you'll be a fabulous AT dancer, never mind the fancy stuff. Seriously, it's kind of boring at first, but there's so little point in doing the other stuff without knowing the posture and walk, and without the musicality.

I don't say it to discourage you. Definitely not. But it's such a completely separate dance from Am.Tango and from ballroom in general. It annoys me to see it taught like ballroom is taught.

But have fun, and I hope you love it! If you want music selections/suggestions, let me know. I've got a ton!

[SPratt74]

I don't say it to discourage you. Definitely not. But it's such a completely separate dance from Am.Tango and from ballroom in general. It annoys me to see it taught like ballroom is taught.


What do you mean by teaching AT like how ballroom is taught? We have two separate instructors that come in to teach AT. They don't teach anything else even though they do join us in lessons and other things sometimes. I guess you have me confused, because they teach in the same ballroom area etc. as everything else, but it's like they are completely different from ballroom if that makes sense lol. So, what do you mean by that? ;)

[ssjss]

What do you mean by teaching AT like how ballroom is taught? We have two separate instructors that come in to teach AT. They don't teach anything else even though they do join us in lessons and other things sometimes. I guess you have me confused, because they teach in the same ballroom area etc. as everything else, but it's like they are completely different from ballroom if that makes sense lol. So, what do you mean by that? ;)After dancing AT for awhile you'll understand this statement.

Cornut there is a AT event going on in Miami later this month. If you get the chance it's worth going to.

[Peaches]

What do you mean by teaching AT like how ballroom is taught? We have two separate instructors that come in to teach AT. They don't teach anything else even though they do join us in lessons and other things sometimes. I guess you have me confused, because they teach in the same ballroom area etc. as everything else, but it's like they are completely different from ballroom if that makes sense lol. So, what do you mean by that? ;)

My first answer is along the lines of what someone else said--after you've been doing it for a while, you'll understand. But that's really not helpful.

What I mean is, I've run across various instructors who'll say, "Oh, I do AT." And then I've asked them (or they've asked me, knowing that I dance AT) to dance, and all they're doing is Am.T with a different basic. Or, some steps which are, technically, AT steps but they have no idea of how to lead it.

Dead giveaway is if they're still using something akin to a ballroom frame. Automatic, "you don't know what you're talking about" in my book. Yes, I know there's open embrace, but it's still really not much like a ballroom frame.

The "teachers" in this category do not seem to grasp the idea that it's not a series of step patters, but instead is a series of steps combined with weight changes. They might be able to lead this really interesting pattern, but never realize that what they really need to communicate focuses (from what I've found) on 3 things: weight (where it is, how to shift it, when to shift it), angle of shoulders (and therefore, angle of hips), and direction of travel (axis). Everything, so far as I can tell, boils down to the interaction of those 3 elements.

And they'd better have a good walk. I don't care so much about heel leads or toe leads walking forward. I've been told that heel leads are correct, that toe leads are correct, and that both are correct as long as you have the rest of it in order.

But the teachers who never teach the weight, and the axis, and the shoulder angle, or who don't focus on the intention of the walk...THAT's what I mean about teachers teaching AT like it's ballroom. It's such a distinct dance--they should really look nothing like each other whatsoever.

IMHO, of course.

[Joe]

Well, to play devil's advocate here, really good ballroom dancers focus on those 3 things too.

[Peaches]

Well, to play devil's advocate here, really good ballroom dancers focus on those 3 things too.

Fair point, that.

Although it would seem that the way it's applied in each instance is fundamentally different somehow, because I've noticed plenty of accomplished ballroom dancers who just cannot seem to make the transition. So many times they can know a step pattern, but never know how to lead it. Sure, they might have a frame, which may or may not help--but they haven't figured out how to signal/request a change of weight. Or, they haven't figured out how to change their own weight without signaling me to change mine.

I don't know enough about ballroom leading to be able to compare, so I can't say any more than that.

[ssjss]

Fair point, that.

Although it would seem that the way it's applied in each instance is fundamentally different somehow, because I've noticed plenty of accomplished ballroom dancers who just cannot seem to make the transition. One of the most fundamental differences is the Embrace. In ballroom the contact is lower as in AT the contact is up in the shoulders. Both lead with the upper body but in AT the lead is more suttle. I've also danced AT with very good Ballroom dancers but they're just not used to the suttleness of the lead. In the past I've had some of them try to teach AT to me , but they never covered the Walk nor the Embrace. IMO these are the basic need in the beginning more so then the Salida. Also AT is geared more towards individaul creativity then tech. as in Ballroom. These all are just my observation.

[FTL]

IMHO, once you get a good lead in AT it is easier to follow. In contrast, even with good leads in ballroom, following is difficult and tricky since the tension involved in the connection needs to be maintained all the time and in every beat. It is even worse when there is separation where connections are reduced to the hands or visual.

[jerblu]

I'm a fairly decent ballroom dancer, and I started AT about 8-9 months ago, with a teacher who does only AT. But I know what you mean.

First and most annoying: that darned Right Elbow of mine, that I trained and trained to get horizontal and STAY UP keeps on rising to the horizontal no matter how much I remind myself that this is not waltz or foxtrot.

Lots of other gigantic differences, like no offset, and no rise and fall, and all sorts of other stuff.

But it is wonderful. And some things dont change- like the need to maintain frame.

Jerry

[Ampster]

My wife and I started doing ballroom. We went to AT, and never looked back. It has taken hold to the point that ballroom to us is now absolutely boring and mechanical.

Like most who went this route, we had to relearn everything: lead/follow relationship, walks, frames, etc. All were completely different. It was a great transition, but one one we were glad to take.

[cornutt]

Since I started this, let me give this report on how it's going.

We've had three group lessons now. We've learned a number of variations on the 8-count basic, such as a balance step, some foot flicks, and a crossing step that is done on the two. Last night, our instructor showed us a couple of variations and then talked about things you can do to make the number of beats come out the way you want. I had kind of already picked up on this from having done some socially (first time!) last Friday. AT does seem to give the lead a lot of room to play with the timing, which I think is pretty neat. :cool:

Now that we've gotten a feel for how AT flows in general, we're finding that new steps haven't been that hard to pick up. Last night, we did forward and back ochos. The forward ones were a lot like ballroom tango fans. The backward ones were another thing, and we struggled with it for a while before figuring out how the foot-change thing works (I change feet, she doesn't). Once we got that straight, the step wasn't too hard to do. (Other than staying on my left foot -- I turned my ankle Wednesday, not bad, but it's a little weak. Last night, after an hour of AT and another hour in a rumba class, it was pretty sore.)

Now, for a ballroom guy, I haven't found it that hard a transition. Admittedly, the first two weeks, there were moments where it felt like learning to dance all over again -- the different frame, no rise and fall, and getting rid of those pesky heel leads. :shock: But now that I have a feel for it, I understand better how the steps are supposed to work, and new steps aren't quite so much of a surprise. I'm not giving up ballroom; rather, AT is going to be a great new thing to add to my repetoire.