When men really *dance*

[africana]

with everything they got, with fire & passion....hoooo boy...
I think the earth moves (be still my heart) LOL

like this guy (http://media.putfile.com/imambotv-clip---Toronto-couple), he is just KILLING me :D
(and that song!)

and so is Alex Lima (http://media.putfile.com/Holland-AlexLwMagna) (w/ the superbly awesome Magna G)
they're having so much fun!

Most leads I know are so cerebral, kinda serious
I wish more would (or could) let go like this! This type of dancing is what I was asking about in that thread "Leaders - How does it make you feel?"
I was basically wondering how the freedom to dance spontaneously, and in the music is achieved...and all that while connected with a partner :)

btw, gotta LOVE imambo.tv
:notworth:

[sweavo]

I was basically wondering how the freedom to dance spontaneously, and in the music is achieved...and all that while connected with a partner :)


The answer to that must surely be different for every dancer, depending on what they already bring to the table. Because I teach and I get lots of compliments (locally) on my dancing, I have been trying to analyse what makes my dancing what it is. I've always danced, always drummed and always listened to and felt rhythms, from playing mum's pots and pans aged 4, upwards. For me it's about being able to PLAY rather than to WORK at it. Allowing yourself to make connections between rhythms and movements without worrying about whether they're the official right answers. So I would say it's about understanding rhythm intimately, having worked on your movements, then letting go of all that and just feeling good about your situation. Unfortunately, that advice is useless to someone who hasn't got where they are by the same route I took.

[genEus]

with everything they got, with fire & passion....hoooo boy...
I think the earth moves (be still my heart) LOL

like this guy (http://media.putfile.com/imambotv-clip---Toronto-couple), he is just KILLING me :D
(and that song!)

btw, gotta LOVE imambo.tv
:notworth:

Can you link to imambo.tv please or tell where to look? Can't open putfile.com from work, and I'm curious to see the clip. Thanks. :)

[Pacion]

::cue Pacion rolling eyes:: Sorry Africana. I only have eyes for our Sabor...


;) :banana: :lol:

[africana]

Can you link to imambo.tv please or tell where to look? Can't open putfile.com from work, and I'm curious to see the clip. Thanks. :)
http://www.imambo.tv/mambo/images/zoom/ZFGDJT/stephanie_Okello.wmv

:D :D

[africana]

For me it's about being able to PLAY rather than to WORK at it. Allowing yourself to make connections between rhythms and movements without worrying about whether they're the official right answers. So I would say it's about understanding rhythm intimately, having worked on your movements, then letting go of all that and just feeling good about your situation. mmm yes yes

[Pacion]

I think I agree with Sweavo. I would question the "understanding rhythm intimatley, having worked on your movements" bit. There are some intermediate level type dancers who, in my opinion, let go and just feel good about their situation. Whether it is an innate understanding of rhythm, don't know.

(Still only have eyes for our Sabor :D)

[amo_dile_que_no]

There are some intermediate level type dancers who, in my opinion, let go and just feel good about their situation.
I guess I would fall into this category. I feel like I can really let it go when I feel comfortable with my dance partner. By that I mean I think she can follow most anything I might try to improvise and is open to that kind of uncertainty. It also helps if I know she is the forgiving type :). For me it's just about feeling good and relaxed. It needs to be music that really moves me whether it's a mambo, merengue, or bachata. Fortunately most all of it does, although some is much more inspiring than others. It's what I really like about dancing salsa. Dancing with abandon, that's what keeps me coming back.

Last Thursday night was not one of those nights. It was one of those unusual nights when there were not too many good lady dancers (but a lot of ladies willing to dance). I danced, but it just wasn't as fun. I had to be pretty reserved and basic the whole evening.

But Saturday night. Wow! I had a very good night. I felt like I was doing some of my best stuff, particularly on shines (not generally a strength) and I improvised a lot. I danced with some very good dancers; some regular partners and a couple new ones. I got a very nice compliment from one of the ladies (an awesome dancer) I danced with for the first time. That kind of positive reinforcement really helps for letting it loose in the future.

[sweavo]

I think I agree with Sweavo. I would question the "understanding rhythm intimatley, having worked on your movements" bit. There are some intermediate level type dancers who, in my opinion, let go and just feel good about their situation. Whether it is an innate understanding of rhythm, don't know.

(Still only have eyes for our Sabor :D)

Mm, maybe you're right. But I don't think you can take someone with no rhythm and tell them to "just let go" and expect them to look good. The understanding of rhythm and movement doesn't have to be intellectuallized I guess, but it does have to be there.

I've been asked whether I'm from cuba because of the way I move my body... if only they knew it was from wanting to be a body-popper when I was about 11 :-)

[Big10]

with everything they got, with fire & passion....hoooo boy...
I think the earth moves (be still my heart) LOL

like this guy (http://media.putfile.com/imambotv-clip---Toronto-couple), he is just KILLING me :D
(and that song!)

and so is Alex Lima (http://media.putfile.com/Holland-AlexLwMagna) (w/ the superbly awesome Magna G)
they're having so much fun!
Huh? There were men in those videos? :confused: For some reason, I didn't notice. :raisebro:

Seriously, though, the women were great in both of those videos, and I think the way they moved was a huge factor in what made those men "dance." As a leader, I know that sometimes I will hold back if my partner is more reserved in her movements or if she is very uncomfortable when I release her for shines. I definitely feed off of my partner's energy, and I will sometimes go a little bit above her level of energy/movement, but I try not to go more than a couple of notches above it. (It's hard to phrase that correctly, but I hope you catch my drift).

Just this past Friday, I was dancing with a friend for about an hour and we got a couple of really nice compliments afterwards from bystanders -- mainly about how we were fun to watch because we seemed to feel the music and how people could see our "chemistry." Well, honestly, there's not as much chemistry between us as I would like ;) , and I know many women around town who are much better technical dancers, but this one in particular lets loose a bit more and smiles a lot more.....which makes me feel more comfortable "letting go" myself. We just sweat a lot and have fun! Some women seem to be so concerned about being dainty and not working up a sweat that they really minimize their movement -- and that will keep me (and probably other leaders) from moving very much also.

[Pacion]

Some women seem to be so concerned about being dainty and not working up a sweat that they really minimize their movement -- and that will keep me (and probably other leaders) from moving very much also.

Has the thought ever occurred to you, that the lady may be thinking that about you ie. thinking that you don't want to work up a sweat and therefore respond accordingly?

I have thought that about some guys and I don't know what happened, whether I did something that switched the light on for them, but they then suddenly became very *alive* and I was like ::Pacion rolls eyes here x:: what took you so long!!! :lol:

[africana]

ahh the clips look much better viewed on imambo

Here's the link to Alex's clip (http://www.imambo.tv/mambo/index.php?option=com_zoom&Itemid=47&page=view&catid=101&PageNo=1&key=0&hit=1)again

[africana]

- good points big10, I guess both leaders & followers carry a lot of expectations of what they think the other should be doing, and sometimes their intentions cross, unfortunately

- also agree that dancing at that level takes years of soaking in the music, and a playful fun-loving personality, in addition to all the skill required to lead well.

- in both clips those guys have their act together => even though they are "free", they obviously have advanced lead skills, whether or not the actual patterns are complicated.

- also notable that each is dancing a different style (on2 & on1), and different flavor, but still very authentic in expression

- and good points on the followers' skill (big10, amo_dile): makes a difference, but it's always nice when the leader can set such a powerful tone.
I'm all too used to being the "firestarter" in a lot of my dances, and in fact had to learn that not all men want that,

it would be nice to find more partners who are exhuberant about dancing/music, but know how to control their bodies, and dance at a high technical level

[alemana]

that first clip is of mambotribe folk... we saw the woman in that clip give a performance at jimmy's on sunday with her duo "Aqui Asi."

[Big10]

Has the thought ever occurred to you, that the lady may be thinking that about you ie. thinking that you don't want to work up a sweat and therefore respond accordingly?
Honestly, no, that had never crossed my mind before. It's an interesting idea, though, but I don't really think that's the case for my dance partners. I'll usually take at least a couple of opportunities during a song to insert some "flair" and see how the follower responds to it. Of course, even from the very beginning, I use the first few measures of a song to see how the follower moves generally, and start making adjustments at that point. Then, during the song, I will always give my followers opportunities at different points in the song to insert their own flair.

Some women just never "let loose" or change their movement very much. That's fine, since people have different personalities and not everybody has the same approach to dancing, but I think it partially answers africana's question about why some leaders may or may not let loose, even when they have the talent to do so. We're looking for cues from the followers just as much as they're looking for cues from us.

[borikensalsero]

(and that song!)

Bueno Y Pico by Wuelfo... The entire ablum (El Sonido De La 4) is great. If I'm not mistaken there is a bolero and a merengue in it, as well.

[africana]

Bueno Y Pico by Wuelfo... The entire ablum (El Sonido De La 4) is great. If I'm not mistaken there is a bolero and a merengue in it, as well. thank you! I have never heard that song,a nd that's part of the reason I love finding clips, to hear "new " songs

will look up the album

[AlexSem]

Been lurking around the forums for a little bit.

My humble opinion: it takes time :)


If you take up almost any activity, it takes time before you can stop trying to do things right and just do them right without thinking about it.

Take playing piano for instance: rhythm, remembering the notes, making sure you play it all correctly.

Once you can play a song in your sleep, you can start goofing around and accenting certain parts of it or playing with emotion like you see the really really good folks who rock back and forth in their chair when playing and so on.



How long does it take an average person to learn to play the piano at a point where he can comfortably play and goof around and make it sound good? More than 4 years because tha's when I gave up and I never reached that stage :P



Same goes for dancing, for drawing, for painting, for sculpting a lot of things.

There's foundation that has to be laid and has to be very rock solid (leading, timing, technique, a lot of knowledge (patterns, body isolations etc) that takes time to accumilate)


You can't expect someone who has danced for a year or a bit more to be all playful on the dance floor and make it exciting for you. He's probably still working on his lead, thinking *what step am I doing next* and so on. It's a lot harder than most people realize perhaps, people have forgotten how long it takes and expect relative newcomers to dance IN the music and not be robots/mechanical and so on.



If you look at any clip where the dancers are IN the music, I'll bet you anything they've been doing it for a long time and they didn't look so hot and IN the music during their first year of dancing :)

[Shooshoo]

My humble opinion: it takes time :)



That's very true. It's not fair to judge except after a while when the personality/letting loose, etc. starts to be seen in the dance.

It's interesting cause there's this guy who I started to learn dancing with at the same time. I used to enjoy dancing with him when he was less capable cause he was concentrating on the connection more, etc. Now after he has become more clever all he concentrates on is himself and doing all these shines and I find it no fun any more.

[africana]

Been lurking around the forums for a little bit.

My humble opinion: it takes time :)


If you take up almost any activity, it takes time before you can stop trying to do things right and just do them right without thinking about it.

Take playing piano for instance: rhythm, remembering the notes, making sure you play it all correctly.

Once you can play a song in your sleep, you can start goofing around and accenting certain parts of it or playing with emotion like you see the really really good folks who rock back and forth in their chair when playing and so on.



How long does it take an average person to learn to play the piano at a point where he can comfortably play and goof around and make it sound good? More than 4 years because tha's when I gave up and I never reached that stage :P



Same goes for dancing, for drawing, for painting, for sculpting a lot of things.

There's foundation that has to be laid and has to be very rock solid (leading, timing, technique, a lot of knowledge (patterns, body isolations etc) that takes time to accumilate)


You can't expect someone who has danced for a year or a bit more to be all playful on the dance floor and make it exciting for you. He's probably still working on his lead, thinking *what step am I doing next* and so on. It's a lot harder than most people realize perhaps, people have forgotten how long it takes and expect relative newcomers to dance IN the music and not be robots/mechanical and so on.



If you look at any clip where the dancers are IN the music, I'll bet you anything they've been doing it for a long time and they didn't look so hot and IN the music during their first year of dancing :):cool: "welcome" to DF Alex! that was a great first post ;0

Have to agree with most of that too, yes it takes time, lots of learning, integration, practice.
But problem is that a large number of leaders don't even realize that they could aim to be that "IN the music", because even their role models (other technically-advanced leaders) have no clue about that either. If yu ask a lot of guys what they notice when watching other men, it's usually the patterns, they want to pick up new patterns, and are not neccessarily learning to be complete dancers

but hopefully, we all can change that trend slowly, somehow

[salsachinita]

......but hopefully, we all can change that trend slowly, somehow

Oh, I believe the changes are already in place...! Just takes a while to filter down to everyone.

I'm seeing a trend: the highly praised dances these day seem to have more emphasis on fluidity & simple elegance rather than flashier, trickier moves favoured in the previous decade.

I'm also seeing a much better awareness on musicality.

(next we would get everybody to stop being so serious & actually have fun ;) )

Good to see :cool: !!!

[AlexSem]

:cool: "welcome" to DF Alex! that was a great first post ;0

Have to agree with most of that too, yes it takes time, lots of learning, integration, practice.
But problem is that a large number of leaders don't even realize that they could aim to be that "IN the music", because even their role models (other technically-advanced leaders) have no clue about that either. If yu ask a lot of guys what they notice when watching other men, it's usually the patterns, they want to pick up new patterns, and are not neccessarily learning to be complete dancers

but hopefully, we all can change that trend slowly, somehow


:)

I see what you mean about pattern-monkeys. Thing is, one has to come to a point where he is satisfied with the patterns and is looking for more than that.

When does one get satisfied with enough patterns? It's hard to say.

Part of the problem is when you do the moves the ladies already know, they go "automatic". It's a shame because if you (ladies) know the move, that's your time to spice it up and dance IN the music.

Instead, what happens is women are bored because they already know the pattenrs the guy's going to do. Oh so then the guy's always on the run for more patterns so that when they dance with the regulars, they can impress them with something new.



It's both parties at fault imho. Ladies for not being IN the music where there's ample opportunity and expecting new patterns hence putting pressure on the guys

Guys for not giving enough space to freestyle and falling into the "gotta do the triple spin followed by blah balh balh" pattern of thinking.



I am probably biased, well of course I am, but if you start a thread with "How many women suck at shines", you'll find a lot of guys who simply don't break off into them and hence don't dance IN the music as much because that's where you have a chacne to do whatever you feel like.

How many times do you see women stall and do a "pattern shine" that they learned once upona time when guys break into shines? So who's not dancing IN the music really?

Guys have a hard enough job of doing all the leading, women should imho be intitiating the playfulness and as someone mentioned, energy feeds off energy. When a guy breaks off into shines and woman just stands there waiting to be picked up or half-assing her routined shine, what can you expect :)

[alemana]

the first time a lead actually REACTED to my freestyling i almost had a heart attack - it's THAT unusual. in fact i think i fleetingly thought to myself, "He's mocking me."

by 'reacted' i don't mean had a facial expression showing he'd seen it and appreciated it - i mean, took it and worked it into *his* dancing, took the sentence and made a new sentence with it and said it back to me with his body. and looked for me to say the next thing. wow, what a gift. a give-and-take, rather than a TV dinner shoved under the door without a note.

not surprisingly, he is a professional (non-partner) dancer - has a very advanced sense of control over his body and an unusually developed corporeal vocabulary. since he's not worried about stepping this way or that, he can pay attention to other things - like dialogue.

[englezul]

Been lurking around the forums for a little bit.

My humble opinion: it takes time :)


If you take up almost any activity, it takes time before you can stop trying to do things right and just do them right without thinking about it.

Take playing piano for instance: rhythm, remembering the notes, making sure you play it all correctly.

Once you can play a song in your sleep, you can start goofing around and accenting certain parts of it or playing with emotion like you see the really really good folks who rock back and forth in their chair when playing and so on.



How long does it take an average person to learn to play the piano at a point where he can comfortably play and goof around and make it sound good? More than 4 years because tha's when I gave up and I never reached that stage :P



Same goes for dancing, for drawing, for painting, for sculpting a lot of things.

There's foundation that has to be laid and has to be very rock solid (leading, timing, technique, a lot of knowledge (patterns, body isolations etc) that takes time to accumilate)


You can't expect someone who has danced for a year or a bit more to be all playful on the dance floor and make it exciting for you. He's probably still working on his lead, thinking *what step am I doing next* and so on. It's a lot harder than most people realize perhaps, people have forgotten how long it takes and expect relative newcomers to dance IN the music and not be robots/mechanical and so on.



If you look at any clip where the dancers are IN the music, I'll bet you anything they've been doing it for a long time and they didn't look so hot and IN the music during their first year of dancing :)


Very pertinent post. I feel there's a lot of discussion around diffrent Whys when for whichever lead/follower you think the WHY applies the answer is that their time has not yet come.

While there are certain categories of people that are just not interested to getting to that degree of "freedom" those who are interested have to go through a series of steps(despite the numbering these are non linear).

1) Developing a great technique: "walking" on the music, spinning, connection, control.

2) Building a vast dance "vocabulary" : this implies coreography, musicality,
importing elements of other forms of dancing.

This is what I call the education stage.


When this has been achieved, the creative mind will explode alowing the dancer to achieve his full potential, he will have already built the confidence to let loose because he knows that his flawless techique and superior control that now runs at a subconscious level keeps him looking good on the floor regardless of what he may decide to do. At this point his visualizations center (in terms of dancing) will communicate directly to the body and the rendition will be accurate. All this because the education stage has been completed.

The reason many don't get there as fast is because they bypass the education phase to jump directly to the "fun" stage thus sabotaging themselves from acomplishing their full potential in the shortest amount of time.

For myself whenever I push myself to the next level, I go through intelectualization: what is the next goal, assimilation: material that has to be conceptually new (not just new moves), mastering the new material: practice practice practice practice, and the last phase incorporating it in my repertoire. Now I can let myself go and it will feel and look great...until the next step.

[africana]

very happy to see someone responding in kind with counterarguments Alex :)
:)

I see what you mean about pattern-monkeys. Thing is, one has to come to a point where he is satisfied with the patterns and is looking for more than that.

When does one get satisfied with enough patterns? It's hard to say.

Part of the problem is when you do the moves the ladies already know, they go "automatic". It's a shame because if you (ladies) know the move, that's your time to spice it up and dance IN the music.

Instead, what happens is women are bored because they already know the pattenrs the guy's going to do. Oh so then the guy's always on the run for more patterns so that when they dance with the regulars, they can impress them with something new.



It's both parties at fault imho. Ladies for not being IN the music where there's ample opportunity and expecting new patterns hence putting pressure on the guys

Guys for not giving enough space to freestyle and falling into the "gotta do the triple spin followed by blah balh balh" pattern of thinking.
Do you really believe this? that followers put pressure on men to accumulate more and more patterns and that's why the leads don't achieve that ultimate state of dancing? I guess I can see how that happens, but it's a self-perpetrating pattern (nice pun ;) ) because the will to shine and be a freestyler is practically BEATEN out of followers/women because the salsa community (namely leaders) have decided that the outward display of salsa-prowess is in the creation and dissimilation of as many patterns as it takes to one-up each other

Over 5 years dancing, I went from being an powerfully expressive, musically-attuned, (and somewhat oblivious dancer (not follower mind you), to becoming a negotiative sometimes-dancer-sometimes-follower-but-rarely-both, all depending on the size/fragility of the ego of my current partner and the excitability potential of the song we're dancing to. Today I get all sorts of praise from pattern-advanced leaders, why? because I got better at turning off my brain, I got better at doing "as I'm told", I got better at becoming subservient. To climb the social hierarchy that is the salsa scene, in process of experiencing it all, of getting to dance with the "best" leads, I gave up much autonomy, at least for a while, till I paid my "dues" Now I can afford to be freer, especially with the pro/advanced guys who can handle it (and who usually ask for it lol)

I hear the same story from other women, they don't fully develop as dancers, they mostly just learn following, because that's the only way they can get to dancing at "the top" (whatever that it), they frequently complain that leaders aren't "letting them go" when the song gets shine-able.

Now back when I was much more stubborn (believe it or not LOL) I would actually break away from the lead and start shining, even "advanced" leads, when the song just got too good to be pattern-danced the way these guys wanted to.
fortunately I've gotten much more disciplined & aware, but there are still songs that I refuse to dance with a partner, because there's a lot more to be done with freestyle....

Anyway, where was I? oh yes, the vicious cycle, it has long been perpetrated by the pattern-dance culture. Beginners come into the scene, they have the enthusiasm to DANCE beaten out of them by the current system and before you know it, a new generation of robots arise

And if you look at the development of dancers from beginners to "advanced" (whatever that means) in most salsa scenes, you'll find that the path to advancement for followers is NOT at all about shines or freestyling, it is ALL ABOUT supporting the leaders' visions, being a supreme follower (instead of a dancer), whether in performances or on the DF.

When people talk about a female dancer, they're almost always talking about her follow skills - or styling, which is basically a relief to followers from the drudgery of constant patterns, to allow them to be expressive => by the way, styling classes are SO popular, wonder why? haha

When I first moved to my scene, the lack of expressive dancing amongst followers disturbed me to no end! It drove me nuts! I was pretty much the only female dancer out there with her own ideas about dancing, with a need to self-express, to show personality and enjoyment. I felt really different, I stood out so much from everyone (still do)...and it took a long time to get respect for doing that sort of thing

I am probably biased, well of course I am, but if you start a thread with "How many women suck at shines", you'll find a lot of guys who simply don't break off into them and hence don't dance IN the music as much because that's where you have a chacne to do whatever you feel like. Interestingly, guys almost never complain that women aren't shining enough, or styling enough, WHY??? because...wait you know the answer lol..ok I'll say it: it's because they NEED to execute those patterns by gosh, and so they shall
So by all means, please start a thread on women doing shines. Too many women are afraid of them. and If leaders insist on it, followers will learn it, and vice versa


How many times do you see women stall and do a "pattern shine" that they learned once upona time when guys break into shines? So who's not dancing IN the music really? I used to do that as I said, now I try to be mindful of the egos

Like alemana I often find partners imitating my footwork or shines/styling, it's flattering but sort of unnerving too lol
I've used that sort of influence to some advantage by bringing attention to & helping develop a small handful of men that are interested in full, cooperative dancing. But it's not the same as having MALE role models

Guys have a hard enough job of doing all the leading, women should imho be intitiating the playfulness and as someone mentioned, energy feeds off energy. When a guy breaks off into shines and woman just stands there waiting to be picked up or half-assing her routined shine, what can you expect :) Hmm yeah can't argue with that.

[genEus]

Just wanted to say thanks for bringing this clip to our attention. I already watched it 5 times, all because of Stephanie. It's women like she that can really bring out the passion to dance. Wow! So much fun!!! :) Rarely do you see that kind of unchoreographed playfulness on iMambo.

[sweavo]

... but it's a self-perpetrating pattern (nice pun ;) ) because the will to shine and be a freestyler is practically BEATEN out of followers/women because the salsa community (namely leaders) have decided that the outward display of salsa-prowess is in the creation and dissimilation of as many patterns as it takes to one-up each other


Since it's a perception by both sides that the other side is forcing the focus on patterns, it looks to me like it's simply the effect of our collective insecurity. There are many girls who strongly discourage me from breaking apart for shines since they then have to shift their mindset from terrified follower to terrified person all on her own... It comes from too much focus on technique, or carrying the classes mentality into the club. Often if I break apart for a couple of bars and she just does basics on the spot or looks scared or tells me off, I pick her up again and say "remember the suzy-q! the suzy-q is your friend!" then a bit later in the song I'll T-stance and encourage her... doesn't always work, but you've gotta do your bit to fight the spread of patternmonkeydom!

[africana]

Since it's a perception by both sides that the other side is forcing the focus on patterns, it looks to me like it's simply the effect of our collective insecurity. agreed...next step is to communicate our expectations/desires without causing too much bloodshed lol

ur welcome genus (but I should point out Okello inspired & excited Stephanie in that clip so she stepped up to the plate ;) )

[alemana]

t-stance was the 'invitation' least likely to promote spontaneous dancing when i was a beginner/early intermediate. like many women at that level, i hated it and did not have the body movement vocabulary to dance in that position. i usually refused the invite, as did most of the women i know at that level. not sure why leaders think it's a useful device for encouraging freedom of expression. it's extremely restrictive and many nonadvanced leads cannot position the arms correctly.

now that i'm more advanced i can handle it better, but it's still not my favorite thing, and i'm much more likely to revert to a tried-and-true shine pattern in T-stance than in any other situation on the floor.

but guys who really dance in open position, that is a big boost. many leaders, by their gestures and feedback, give the impression that the shining period is the time when the follow is supposed to 'be sexy' and impress the lead, but it's the ones who actually dance who have by example showed me what freestyling is for and what it is about.

[Sagitta]

hmmm....hmmm.....hmmm....

There are times when one isn't into the music and people ask one to dance...where one of the partners wants move and move, even advanced dancers...many things...but when things click...aha! It's wonderful.

Last night was one such night pour moi. It started slow...but suddenly I got my groove on and danced a storm. I was on the beat and on time and knew where my partner was at almost every instant. I didn't think and it flowed!! I got asked to dance by the very person who dissed me a couple weeks back about my lead....oh...you are not leading strong enough...blah...blah.blah...apparently I was leading well enough yesterday night, though she still flubbed....maybe something about anticipating ;-) Though of course I didn't mention it. She knew it though and said, "oh, I'm not used to these kinds of moves!!"

When you dance you make a choice. If leaders don't let you freestyle then don't dance with them. If you don't like the pattern dancers skip them. Lead by example to get the dancers you want to dance with. I stand by my convictions and will not change. This above follower criticised me so I decided not to ask her to dance with me. Not constructive criticism either as I clearly told her that I wasn't willing to increase the strength of my lead - she needed to follow - or if she didn't like it lead me!

When I'm on I don't do patterns...but when I'm not I do as I'm not into it. I'm upfront and let people know. They can choose not to dance. However, the great thing is seeing all the newbies that I dance with transform themselves into real dancers. I don't do what others do so I guess it is good training. For instance, instead of right hand side tunneling of the followers backwards I do left (And contrary to what some people have expressed here before there hasn't been one lady who has disliked tunneling.) Another thing....Do a right to left hand and left-right hand hold. Do a turn, veil your right hand over her, then line up with her and both turn anti-clockwise with unwinding followed by a little hand play and a final spin...into a turn and hammerlock and then turning in the other direction etc etc..several people liked that combination and got their leaders to watch me to copy...(only reason I remember it so well.)

And I'm not boasting. Given my inability to dance on2 etc....I know I'm a simple beginner.

The best way to get real dancing is to do it yourself. People notice and start to emulate. That happened last night. ;-)

[sweavo]

t-stance was the 'invitation' least likely to promote spontaneous dancing when i was a beginner/early intermediate.

oh crap! maybe that's why nobody shines 'round here! It's the first thing we leaders learn for giving the woman her bit...

but guys who really dance in open position, that is a big boost.

Do you mean disconnected? or still right-in left...?

many leaders, by their gestures and feedback, give the impression that the shining period is the time when the follow is supposed to 'be sexy' and impress the lead, but it's the ones who actually dance who have by example showed me what freestyling is for and what it is about.

Interesting. I think I'm semi-guilty of this... sometimes I like to lay it down as a challenge, and some followers really respond to that! But usually I act delighted in whatever they do ... and usually it's not faked!

But I'd like to get to the stage of "echoing back" and re-writing those dance sentences. Looks like I need to freestyle more with the very few local girls who are happy to shine.

[Big10]

ur welcome genus (but I should point out Okello inspired & excited Stephanie in that clip so she stepped up to the plate ;) )
Sorry, but I have to agree with genEus about that clip....Stephanie is the one who made it really special to watch! :D :p

Okello seems to be a fine dancer, but I think the biggest thing he did to "inspire" or "excite" Stephanie was simply by letting her go, so that she could then feel the music in her own way. She was great! I'm just surprised that genEus has watched it only 5 times....;)

[englezul]

Sorry, but I have to agree with genEus about that clip....Stephanie is the one who made it really special to watch! :D :p

Okello seems to be a fine dancer, but I think the biggest thing he did to "inspire" or "excite" Stephanie was simply by letting her go, so that she could then feel the music in her own way. She was great! I'm just surprised that genEus has watched it only 5 times....;)

Okello is definitely a fun dancer but nothing there gave me the chills...like that video of Sekou & Ana also on iMambo. However I completely agree with Big10. The only think Okello did was not to stand in her way. Stephanie, Mark Anthony, Magna, and Young are the powerhouse performers of the Mambo Tribe, the first two being the senior instructors there. She dances like that all the time...cause she can.

[africana]

meh you guys are just giving excuses :p there's no doubt Okello set the tone cos I didn't even notice his partner till you guys talked about it, and I usually notice followers as well
but when I visit toronto I'd like to see a comparison with Okello (already seen what houston has to offer -> big10 heh) i think it's great their dancing is at the point where it looks like "no big deal" to others, that's the way it should be. natural

btw, that Ana/Sekou was from the Masacote wesbite

http://www.masacoteentertainment.com/videos/anaprogression/anaprogression16a.wmv

now she's something!!

[icering]

^^^ that was inspiring

[KiwiMambo]

Thanks for the video clips Africana. Now that is dancing!

That is what I am trying to acheive right now and I am at the beginning stages. Dancing IN the music, adding more fluidity in my body movement and playing. I have felt I can focus on this aspect now because turn patterns are now a dime a dozen for me. I can execute them without out thinking. But it has taken me 3 years to get to this point. It's hard to lead ya know :)

Surrounding yourself around dancers that can groove really helps. I always feel I am grooving more to the music after a congress or trip to New York. That is why New Yorkers are such good dancers and advance rapidly. They are surrounded by it so you can't help but elevate to that level.

If you look at two extreme ends of the specturm. There are those that have natural rhythm and feel for the music; technique is more difficult for them to pick up. There are those that are technical - technique and patterns are easy to learn and rhythm and feel are something they have to work hard at. Ultimately if you want to be a great dancer the paths have to cross. In other words, what you see in those videos took years of discipline, practice and hundreds of hours of social dancing.

I did Martial Arts for 18 years before I started dancing. At the highest levels Bruce Lee was not an advocate of executing fixed patterns. He used to say something like "The best style is no style, you want to be free to adapt and react to your opponent. But in order to have no style, you must first learn a style".

Translated that means we must first learn about the music, fundamentals and fixed turn patterns. Then when we reach a level where they are second nature we toss the fixed turn patterns to the side and free ourselves into the music and execute and react to the music and our partner.

[africana]

agree completely!
I don't mean to diss the usefulness of patterns, I love them, want them! And I don't mean to diss the necessity of grounding in technique, love it, need it! I find all that training is important for safety, for efficiency, for communication, for body awareness, for control, and for artistry.
But those things are just tools (the means) to help leaders & followers dance by following the music (the end)

[sweavo]

The difference is the ones who are really dancing are saying "YEAH!" rather than "um..." with their bodies, in their minds, on all levels...

[Salcero]

Funning how the advent of the internet and videos help to produce so many copy cat clones. Social dancing is often now a stage for performances. I love dancing and having fun without someone handing me a report card when I get off the dance floor.

[alemana]

i think those of us who don't really consider ourselves "natural" dancers for whatever reason can really benefit from "anything goes" practice time alone. i turn on the music, sometimes turn out the lights, and turn away from the mirror and just go for it. it's tough but WOW, the payback.

[terremoto]

i think those of us who don't really consider ourselves "natural" dancers for whatever reason can really benefit from "anything goes" practice time alone. i turn on the music, sometimes turn out the lights, and turn away from the mirror and just go for it. it's tough but WOW, the payback.

Dancing is really about enjoying yourself - and if "anything goes" is what you enjoy then thats awesome!!! Just dance and have a good time!!!

[KiwiMambo]

i think those of us who don't really consider ourselves "natural" dancers for whatever reason can really benefit from "anything goes" practice time alone. i turn on the music, sometimes turn out the lights, and turn away from the mirror and just go for it. it's tough but WOW, the payback.

Amen to that!
A few weeks ago I was still practicing my super cool fast footwork with lots of syncopations and challenging myself with faster music. But I was still bored. Why? Because I finally felt it did not go with the music. I was just doing the steps. Then I decided to just throw on Acid by Ray Baretto and do whatever felt good. Nothing technically fancy but man did it feel good.

[thespina13]

Absolutely been there. Threw the door open to let the fresh air in and blasted some Baretto and nearly cried I was loving it so much. I don't even remember what I was doing anymore, but I was moving, and it was totally organic. After an experience like that, going back to class to practice our routine just SUCKED. I don't think I'll ever do a routine again, unless it's with my one partner and we're both on the same page and it's really really fabulous. Maybe in another year or two.

[africana]

yes, now that's what I call "practice" on my planet LOL only I do wherever salsa is playing, that's right, in public too! :lol:

[genEus]

Dang. Just watched it again. So much fun!!

[squirrel]

ahh the clips look much better viewed on imambo

Here's the link to Alex's clip (http://www.imambo.tv/mambo/index.php?option=com_zoom&Itemid=47&page=view&catid=101&PageNo=1&key=0&hit=1)again

I cannot dance with this man... :( I tried but could hardly follow him... :(

[squirrel]

Amen to that!
A few weeks ago I was still practicing my super cool fast footwork with lots of syncopations and challenging myself with faster music. But I was still bored. Why? Because I finally felt it did not go with the music. I was just doing the steps. Then I decided to just throw on Acid by Ray Baretto and do whatever felt good. Nothing technically fancy but man did it feel good.

I can never remember a sequence of shines when I dance socially...

I mean, I am in a performance team and could do the moves that we do there... I learned a lot of shines and also made up shine sequences for my classes... and still I cannot get myself to do the "already learned" shines... They are more challenging than what I usually do as shines, but they don't fit the music and my state of mind - so, away with them!

Still, I can perfectly understand the problem of followers and leaders alike - "What am I going to do now that I have to shine?" I danced with a friend last night - she's a good follower, but has a problem with improvisation. I "invited" her to do some footwork and she went blank! She looked scared and horified. I yelled at her over the music "Do a Susie Q!" Nada! She was staring at me and kept repeating "I don't know what to do, get me out of here!" I am not exagerrating a bit! :) She went ballistic! I had to go back to doing patterns... I felt sad though...

[Josh]

She looked scared and horified. I yelled at her over the music "Do a Susie Q!" Nada! She was staring at me and kept repeating "I don't know what to do, get me out of here!" I am not exagerrating a bit! :) She went ballistic! I had to go back to doing patterns... I felt sad though...

At the FIRST sign of a horrified look from a follower, get her out of there! Don't just leave her stranded by herself if she's not comfortable! She shouldn't have to repeat "Get me out of here"... you should have already picked her back up! :eek:

[africana]

ohhh geez where do I start ^^

[genEus]

ohhh geez where do I start ^^

restrain yourself

[africana]

i know. i am

[Rumbera]

My partner always gets guys approaching him to teach them how to dance like him – he doesn’t do any fancy combos (unless we are performing) he just moves in the music like no one else. I remember when I was first learning to dance and I wanted so much to move like of him (female version of course) and I got really frustrated because he said it is something that can’t be taught. I finally experienced what he was talking about a few years ago and now I know why. It might sound crazy, but to really achieve the euphoria that you can experience with salsa is to forget everything you have learned – all of the shines, combos, and patterns – forget about any audience you may or may not have - and just let the music take over completely.

Too many salsa dancers strive for perfection – but Salsa doesn’t need perfection it has a special magic of its own.

[fallenangel]

Just this past Friday, I was dancing with a friend for about an hour and we got a couple of really nice compliments afterwards from bystanders -- mainly about how we were fun to watch because we seemed to feel the music and how people could see our "chemistry." Well, honestly, there's not as much chemistry between us as I would like ;) , and I know many women around town who are much better technical dancers, but this one in particular lets loose a bit more and smiles a lot more.....which makes me feel more comfortable "letting go" myself. We just sweat a lot and have fun! Some women seem to be so concerned about being dainty and not working up a sweat that they really minimize their movement -- and that will keep me (and probably other leaders) from moving very much also.


I know exactly what you mean. I've been in situations like that, don't that feel great!. That is when you're free yourself, enjoying your dance and dancing with your partner ppl can see that. You can't get those moments all the time, so when i do i'll enjoy every moment of it.

[noobster]

t-stance was the 'invitation' least likely to promote spontaneous dancing when i was a beginner/early intermediate...
now that i'm more advanced i can handle it better, but it's still not my favorite thing, and i'm much more likely to revert to a tried-and-true shine pattern in T-stance than in any other situation on the floor.
Oh, man. I don't know a single shine. I just make stuff up. I don't mind the T-stance as long as it doesn't last too long. Usually it doesn't b/c the guy can tell I don't have a clue what I'm doing! :)

I guess I'm lucky to be in nyc; I feel like I've seen lots of guys who really 'dance it.' Maybe about 10% of the total? They're great to watch. Ditto on loving the clip that started this thread. I actually find that leader much more entertaining to watch than his follower, although it looks as if I'm in the minority there.

[Sagitta]

My partner always gets guys approaching him to teach them how to dance like him – he doesn’t do any fancy combos (unless we are performing) he just moves in the music like no one else. I remember when I was first learning to dance and I wanted so much to move like of him (female version of course) and I got really frustrated because he said it is something that can’t be taught. I finally experienced what he was talking about a few years ago and now I know why. It might sound crazy, but to really achieve the euphoria that you can experience with salsa is to forget everything you have learned – all of the shines, combos, and patterns – forget about any audience you may or may not have - and just let the music take over completely.

Too many salsa dancers strive for perfection – but Salsa doesn’t need perfection it has a special magic of its own.

Very true. In the forgetting becomes the joining of music and body and