USA Dance's Amatuer Judging Program

[Laura]

This came up on the Nationals thread. Most people don't know this but USA Dance actually has a program to certify amateur judges, and that USA Dance has a requirement that a certain number of these judges be used at all Regionals and at Nationals.

The amateur judges for Nationals are Wayne & Marie Crowder and Gary & Carol Stroick. The Stroicks will only be judging Theater Arts, and I guess Caberet, too. I don't know what panels the Crowders will be put on, as it is up to the Chairman of Judges (Richard Booth) to set the panels.

So anyway, a couple of years ago USA Dance began a (in my opinion very poorly publicized) program to start certifying amateur judges -- meaning judges who were not NDCA judges. There is a requirement that a certain number of amateur judges be used at all Regionals and at Nationals (although exceptions have been made recently for some Regionals because this is a new requirement that just started either this year or last).

The idea is that these amateur judges are former USA Dance dancers who didn't turn Pro but who took some sort of certification exam via USA Dance so they could judge. At one point they had to have been Championship-level athletes (pointed out of Pre-Champ), but I believe that requirement changed last January. Not sure what the exam is -- like I said this was extremely under-publicized. They were there at Nationals last year, too.

[Katarzyna]

Thank you for posting the new thread.. This is so surprising. Allowing amateurs to judge... What were the reasons... Why are they required rather than regular pro judges.. So this is the 2nd year that this is happening? I haven't heard anything about this.. I have nothing agains this, just SHOCKED this was done so quietly

[Porfirio Landeros]

Wasn't there a comp a few years a go where [someone] freaked out because she did not want to be on a judging panel with an Amateur?

[Katarzyna]

Wasn't there a comp a few years a go where [someone] freaked out because she did not want to be on a judging panel with an Amateur??? Was there a situation like that???:confused:

[Laura]

What were the reasons...
I think part of it came about when relations between USA Dance and the NDCA soured, and USA Dance became concerned about developing their own judging pool. Also, it was seen as a way to give high-level dancers who had retired from competition but didn't turn Pro a way to stay involved in the sport.

Why are they required rather than regular pro judges.
I wouldn't say they are required instead of -- you can see we've got a long list of Pro judges, too, from North America and one from Europe, too. I'm guessing it was done as a way to promote the new amateur judging program, but it kind of comes across as a big suprise since it seems that nearly no one knows about the program.

[Laura]

Wasn't there a comp a few years a go where [someone] freaked out because she did not want to be on a judging panel with an Amateur?
Yes, but that was a little different. USA Dance brought in someone from Europe who was an IDSF-certified judge (not a professional as in WD&DSC jduge). Ann Harding, who I believe is from Canada, was extremely displeased by this. I think this was three or four years ago.

[SDsalsaguy]

Wasn't there a comp a few years a go where [someone] freaked out because she did not want to be on a judging panel with an Amateur??? Was there a situation like that???:confused: I'm not sure about that word choice, but I think the incident Porfirio is refering to was the first year nationals were in St. Paul when Ann Harding objected to having been placed on a judging panel alongside an "amateur" (IDSF) judge and ended up submiting a letter to Dance Beat to that effect.

[Kitty]

actually I am not shocked at all since I know it is done a lot in Europe.

very few people turn pro in Europe (Russia). So a lot of judges there never competed pro.

I am even thinking maybe it is some kind of IDSF requirement or policy? In spirit of which USA Dance started this policy?

[Laura]

I'm not aware of it being an IDSF policy, but I do know that USA Dance did look at the fact that it's done in other IDSF countries and thought trying to start something like that here would be a nice idea.

[Kitty]

I'm not sure about that word choice, but I think the incident Porfirio is refering to was the first year nationals were in St. Paul when Ann Harding objected to having been placed on a judging panel alongside an "amateur" (IDSF) judge and ended up submiting a letter to Dance Beat to that effect.

it is interesting that nationals are judged by foreign judges: IDSF and Canadian.

[Porfirio Landeros]

it is interesting that nationals are judged by foreign judges: IDSF and Canadian.Wow, that's a good point, since they're helping choose our rep's to the world. But since I do smooth, nat'ls is our world championship ;)

[Laura]

it is interesting that nationals are judged by foreign judges: IDSF and Canadian.
Well, there's another tradition or whatever that USA Dance brings in a few foreigners for Nationals. They've been doing this for a number of years.

[Another Elizabeth]

The more things change, the more they stay the same. I vaguely remember a Nationals from at least 12 years ago, maybe more, where Peter Pover was the amateur chairman of judges. (Or maybe it was the 1993 Worlds in Utah, not Nationals?) I think no one made a stink primarily because he was non-voting, and also because the polarization over the judging issue was a little less stark at the time.

[HeadLeft]

The amateur judges for Nationals are Wayne & Marie Crowder and Gary & Carol Stroick.

I just looked on USA Dance's website, and they have a list of 'certified' athletes posted. The Crowders and the Stroicks are the only people on this list. Are they the only USA Dance certified amateur judges?

[SDsalsaguy]

it is interesting that nationals are judged by foreign judges: IDSF and Canadian.
One of the arguments that I've heard made by some is that foreign judges are actually ideal because they have the least connection to and investment in the internal ballroom politics of the US. Given how international the upper ranks are these days (not to mention the degree of overlap between US and Canada) I'm not sure that this really applies, but at the lower levels there may be something to be said for this position.

[Laura]

The Crowders and the Stroicks are the only people on this list. Are they the only USA Dance certified amateur judges?
Yes.

[gingerbread]

I'm not sure about that word choice, but I think the incident Porfirio is refering to was the first year nationals were in St. Paul when Ann Harding objected to having been placed on a judging panel alongside an "amateur" (IDSF) judge and ended up submiting a letter to Dance Beat to that effect.

Well maybe "freaked out" is a bit strong, but Ann Harding did cause a bit of a scandal, as many thought her distate for this "amateur judge" was rather snobbish on her part.

[cornutt]

I wouldn't say they are required instead of -- you can see we've got a long list of Pro judges, too, from North America and one from Europe, too. I'm guessing it was done as a way to promote the new amateur judging program, but it kind of comes across as a big suprise since it seems that nearly no one knows about the program.

Well, it also makes sense that USA Dance wants to emphasize that amateurs who jump through all the hoops to become certified will have opportunities to judge at high-level comps. No one would bother if they knew they were going to be restricted to local comps.

[Alskling]

Well, it also makes sense that USA Dance wants to emphasize that amateurs who jump through all the hoops to become certified will have opportunities to judge at high-level comps. No one would bother if they knew they were going to be restricted to local comps.
The snarky take would be that since Wayne Crowder and the Stroicks are USA Dance officials, as well as the only ones who've been certified at this point, they pushed through the rule to ensure they got some judging jobs. I've heard some rumblings through the grapevine about some of their previous appearances on panels at other comps....

[Laura]

What's wrong with being restricted to judging local comps until you've built up a resume of experiences? That's how it works in ice skating -- first you judge only medal tests, and with another judge present to evaluate how you are doing. Then you get to judge local comps, then regional, and so on until at the top of your career if you have had an impeccable record (and if your federation goes to bat for you, I presume) you get to judge something like Worlds or the Olympics. DanceSport in the USA has nothing like this in place. You basically study and take a test which someone told me is the equivalent of getting the ISTD Associate test (i.e., Bronze), and then go on and judge!

A grassroots judges' training program could be a great thing, but it would need to be more of a comprehensive program to be great. And if you are judging in such a program, I'd like to add that you ideally shouldn't be teaching too. At least, that's how it works in skating.

[Alskling]

What's wrong with being restricted to judging local comps until you've built up a resume of experiences? That's how it works in ice skating -- first you judge only medal tests, and with another judge present to evaluate how you are doing. Then you get to judge local comps, then regional, and so on until at the top of your career if you have had an impeccable record (and if your federation goes to bat for you, I presume) you get to judge something like Worlds or the Olympics. DanceSport in the USA has nothing like this in place. You basically study and take a test which someone told me is the equivalent of getting the ISTD Associate test (i.e., Bronze), and then go on and judge!

A grassroots judges' training program could be a great thing, but it would need to be more of a comprehensive program to be great. And if you are judging in such a program, I'd like to add that you ideally shouldn't be teaching too. At least, that's how it works in skating.

Absolutely agree, Laura. I didn't realize that it was that low a level of test, actually. Does that mean that hypothetically a bronze level dancer could take and pass the test and end up evaluating, say, Eugene and Maria on a Nationals panel? I don't fall into the Ann Harding camp of disdain for amateur judges, and I think the idea of the program is interesting, but that possibility just does not seem right to me.

[Laura]

I would hope any Chairman of Judges worth their salt would prevent that sort of situation from happening. It is the CoJ who makes up the specific panels for the different events.

[ACtenDance]

Wayne and Marie have been judging for at least a couple of years now. This year one or both of them judged at Southest regionals, Smokey Mtn DanceSport Championships, Triangle Open, North Central regionals... might be missing a few. They are both highly qualified in my opinion. I'm guessing they'd probably ask to be put on the panels for syllabus events just to avoid any problems even though they could do just fine judging open events.

[tbrennen]

A couple of clarifications.

First, the USISTD Associate test (called, I think, Diploma I for amateurs) is not an easy test. It depends on the examiner, of course, but if you pass that test, you know your bronze inside and out and that includes most of the basic techniques which apply to all levels of dance.

Second, there is no guideline or rule that specifies that some of the Nationals judges must be from other countries. The DanceSport Council and the Executive Committee both felt (as I do) that it is to our benefit to have (a) adjudicators who most likely don't know our competitors and (b) see or have seen a lot of international competition and dancers.

I personally believe that if we are choosing our international representatives, the adjudicators on those panels at Nationals MUST go to international competitions and not just in the US. The United States has a tiny, tiny number of competitors compared to, say, Europe. (Of course, we also have some of the great dancers!) By only seeing the US competitions, a judge cannot get a fully informed feel of what makes a great dancer, especially on the world stage. Great dancing transcends borders and that means that those who try to determine what great dancing is should "transcend" national borders.

Over the years, we have had the fortune to have three of the great Canadian Ten Dance champion couples (Alain & Anik, Jean-Marc & France, and Pierre & Mireille) and they are/were a tremendous asset to the US adjudication panels. I am a firm believer in multiple inputs and judges from outside the US definitely provide that.

[cl5814]

thanks for clarification, tbrennen. Very informative thread.

For interest sake, if you have the details and allowed to post them, can you tell us who to contact to do the amateur judging test etc.; in case someone that reads the forum or will read it in future, we have the contact information available.....

Thanks for starting the thread Laura.

[cl5814]

Found this on usabda website

"Note that only Certified Athletes who have passed their
Diploma Level II certification exam may judge"

So bronze / level 1 certification is not good enough to judge.

[Joe]

IIRC, the IDSF judge from a few years back (was it the first Nationals in MSP?) was Tom Gray.

[SDsalsaguy]

(was it the first Nationals in MSP?)
Yes, it was. Thanks for the name btw.

[saludas]

Wayne and Marie have been judging for at least a couple of years now. This year one or both of them judged at Southest regionals, Smokey Mtn DanceSport Championships, Triangle Open, North Central regionals... might be missing a few. They are both highly qualified in my opinion. I'm guessing they'd probably ask to be put on the panels for syllabus events just to avoid any problems even though they could do just fine judging open events.

They were US reps to the Worlds a few times; also they were the coaches for the current winners in syllabus levels at the Nationals last year, according to their bios.

[Chris Stratton]

They were US reps to the Worlds a few times; also they were the coaches for the current winners in syllabus levels at the Nationals last year, according to their bios.

Doesn't that disqualify them from judging? I thought under the USA Dance program, each year you had to elect to only teach, or only judge?

[Laura]

Doesn't that disqualify them from judging? I thought under the USA Dance program, each year you had to elect to only teach, or only judge?
I don't know, it's all so confusing and like I said I don't think it's been well-publicized or explained enough.

[ACtenDance]

Doesn't that disqualify them from judging? I thought under the USA Dance program, each year you had to elect to only teach, or only judge?

Don't think that is required yet, but supposedly will be in the future. I think the problem of finding a way to support professional judges and creating a large enough judging pool have to be solved first. I'm not a fan of the notion at the moment. Seems like only a handful of people would shape the development of competitive dance in the US...

[Laura]

One thing that I wonder about is the notion that the judges have to make all their money off of judging. I keep going back to figure skating, so please bear with me, but in skating it's 100% volunteer -- even the people judging the Olympics are volunteers. They don't get paid to judge, they have to pay to get their training and are required to take a certain number of courses at their own expense to stay current, and so on. I think they get hotels paid for at big events, but I'm not sure about that. If we're going to have amateur judges, then following that model does not seem so far-fetched. The idea would be to have people judging because they want to do it and stay involved with the sport and give something back to the sport.

But then, looking at how dancesport has evolved, especially in the US, I think my idea isn't that practical in the long run.