mgshah
05-29-2006, 12:22 AM
2006 Harvard Beginner's Competition
Saturday, October 28, 2006
Malkin Athletic Center, Harvard Square
The website will be undated with more information as the summer progresses.
Some responses to the concerns raised in the MIT thread:
"Harvard Beginner's COmp no longer serves its purpose because it is too stressful and no longer just for beginners."
The purpose of Beginner's comp is to provide an "easy" first competition for new dancers. I put "easy" in quotes because it has different meanings. Our (my) interpretation isn't that there should be weak competition, but that the "other stuff" surrounding the comp should be more laid back then regular competitions. Specifically:
A) Beginner's comp doors open at noon, dancing starts at 1:00 and ends at 7:30 pm. (which ideally should be earlier). For every other comp, beginner's will have to be there when doors open at 7:00 am, start dancing at 8:00 am, and not leave until 9:00 pm.
For Beginner's Comp, local couples can get up at a reasonable hour, attend the comp, and still go out in the evening. Non-local couples can leave the morning of and be home before midnight. That is simply not true for full scale comps, even the smaller ones.
B) There are only a few levels offered. This means that beginner's spend more time dancing and less time waiting around. At any other comp, a newcomer couple eliminated in the first round will spend 12-14 hours at the venue to dance a total of 12 minutes on the floor.
C) Cuts are generous. Most comps cut couples by 50% from round to round. For Beginner's comp we try to call back 60-70%.
D) No costumes.
> I happened to compete at Cornell my rookie year before going to Harvard
> Beginner's, and I would say that my experience at Cornell was what helped
> me do well at HB because I already had a comp (albeit a small comp) under
> my belt.
Precisely. Your first comp was Cornell, for others it will be Harvard Beginner's. A couple's second comp will always be less intimidating than their first. Which is the point of Beginner's comp - To provide a first competition.
> For most people, knowing that you're in an event with 150 other couples is
> very intimidating...
> I'm not so sure that the atmosphere is "low-pressure" anymore. This past
> year, there seemed to be more people in each of the 2 levels offered at
> Harvard Beginner's than was at UConn, Tufts, and many other local college
> comps at the coresponding levels. If anything, beginners and newbies
> seemed more intimidated at this comp, than at UConn, for example, or
> many other competions.
I agree. Large rounds can be intimidating. But I don't know if that is necessarily a bad thing. Competitions are tough, no matter how you cut it. Is 100 couples singnificantly less intimidating than 150? Is it possible that competing against 150 couples early on makes future comps with smaller entries EVEN LESS intimidating. What is the ideal "first competition"? I don't know the answer to that, but I don't think fewer couples is necessarily part of it.
Perhaps we could rank beyond 8? We'd have to figure out how to do that, but perhaps if we had places from 1-16 more couples would find it rewarding? Thoughts?
> the beginners comp has started to cater to more advanced dancers by
> adding silver/gold (looser restrictions than in the past, which only covered
> people dancing for at most 1 year). This means that A. it is no longer
> purely a beginner's comp, and B. it gets significantly more money in reg
> fees bc only beginners pay the $10
In 2004, we offered gold events. We realize we were straying from the beginner focus and have decided not to do it again.
In 2005, we dropped gold events and opted for beginner and intermediate (which was a combination of bronze and silver). This created a mismatched intermedate pool.
For 2006, we plan to offer newcomer, bronze, and silver. We also plan to
offer 4 newcomer events rather than 2.
The rationale for including silver events is that we think it helps those dancers get ready for the "real" comps that are coming up. We're not really expecting many dancers, but we thought we would offer it for those interested.
The necomer price is and has been $10. The intermediate(bronze/silver) is and has been $15. This is cheaper than pretty much every other comp around.
"Harvard doesn't invite every school to send Judges"
> we were told they "asked teams with traditionally large participation" to
> nominate judges.
> We were not asked.
I don't know who told this to you. It certainly wasn't me, and at any rate, it definitely isn't true. I have in my outbox an email sent out on October 14, 2005 to everyone on our mailing list which contained the official team letter, which included the following:
"The judging panel this year will consist primarily of HBDT alumni, however, we also invite teams to nominate one or two judges to our panel. We ask that nominated judges not have taught organized team classes or given private lessons to any current competitors (including intermedate level dancers). We impose this requirement on Harvard judges as well and hope that you understand its importance in maintaining an atmosphere of fairness and impartiality.
Please send you nominations to mgshah@law.harvard.edu by October 21. Please include the judges' name and their style and level of dancing."
MIT, Tufts, and BU sent judges, and we welcome every school to do so.
In retrospect, this was probably a poor form of communicating since not everyone is on our mailing list, and the list of competitors generated through registration typically doesn't include the team captain. (Though our team did spend upward of 40 hours scouring the web for updated team/captain email addresses. Those of you that have websites, please update your contact information and make it easy to find!). I'll make sure the information is on our website for the 2006 competition. And please send someone to judge! We would love to have them on our panel!
"Harvard hogs two dates"
> My point was only that I have heard from more than one school the past
> few years that they'd like to hold a comp, but there are no available dates.
> That's unfortunate, especially since Harvard does take two.
All of the proposed conflicts I've heard are for schools trying to hold comps in the Spring. Is someone really trying to put a full scale comp in the two weekends between UConn and Brown? Would that be viable even without Beginner's Comp? Beginner's comp only works because it's an "easy" comp just for beginners.
"Costs"
> If Harvard cannot keep costs to less than $10/person, that does not mean
> other schools cannot do better.
Then why haven't they? Brown charges $30 for newcomers. UConn charges $25. Tufts is $25. BU is $35. Hartwick came close with $15. MIT is the only other competition that even recognizes different rates for beginners, and they to keep it at $10 as well.
Anyway, the real point isn't that we can't keep the costs at $10 person, but that we do. We hope that the low entry barriers (cost, time, location, etc) will encourage more dancers to try competitive ballroom. As Chris Stratton mentioned, it is part of what we do, and we're happy to do it.
"Beginner's Comp is poorly organized"
Yes, this is absolutely true and for last year, I take the blame. It was my first comp and I didn't know what I was doing. It would have been an even worse disaster if Tim hadn't stepped in at the last minute and helped out.
We did learn a lot though and that was reflected in the Invitational. We've since made several changes internally that will prevent knowledge loss and reduce the impact of turnover. Hopefully, we'll be able to run smooth, efficient comps consistently in the future.
But one year at a time. For the 2006 Beginner's Comp, Tim and I will again be at the reins. We hope that the comp will run as smoothly if not more than the Invitational. We've taken all the comments made regarding the problems at the Invitational to heart and are working on fixes and improvements.
We really appreciate the feedback we get in this forum and I hope you'll continue to provide us with advice and suggestions.
To start it off, what are people's thoughts on the "Team Match" component of Beginner's Comp? Last year we had a rookie/vet team match (each partnership had to have one rookie and one vet). The goal was to get the advanced dancers involved with the comp somehow so that 1) those who had to be there anyway (as team captains, etc) wouldn't get bored, and 2) those who weren't planning on coming would have a little more reason to support their team. Should we keep this? Should we do a purely beginner team match? A purely Vet Team match? No team match?
Thanks!
> And if you run a competition, at least you don't have to wake up at 5 and drive for 3 hours
> before competing!
Saturday, October 28, 2006
Malkin Athletic Center, Harvard Square
The website will be undated with more information as the summer progresses.
Some responses to the concerns raised in the MIT thread:
"Harvard Beginner's COmp no longer serves its purpose because it is too stressful and no longer just for beginners."
The purpose of Beginner's comp is to provide an "easy" first competition for new dancers. I put "easy" in quotes because it has different meanings. Our (my) interpretation isn't that there should be weak competition, but that the "other stuff" surrounding the comp should be more laid back then regular competitions. Specifically:
A) Beginner's comp doors open at noon, dancing starts at 1:00 and ends at 7:30 pm. (which ideally should be earlier). For every other comp, beginner's will have to be there when doors open at 7:00 am, start dancing at 8:00 am, and not leave until 9:00 pm.
For Beginner's Comp, local couples can get up at a reasonable hour, attend the comp, and still go out in the evening. Non-local couples can leave the morning of and be home before midnight. That is simply not true for full scale comps, even the smaller ones.
B) There are only a few levels offered. This means that beginner's spend more time dancing and less time waiting around. At any other comp, a newcomer couple eliminated in the first round will spend 12-14 hours at the venue to dance a total of 12 minutes on the floor.
C) Cuts are generous. Most comps cut couples by 50% from round to round. For Beginner's comp we try to call back 60-70%.
D) No costumes.
> I happened to compete at Cornell my rookie year before going to Harvard
> Beginner's, and I would say that my experience at Cornell was what helped
> me do well at HB because I already had a comp (albeit a small comp) under
> my belt.
Precisely. Your first comp was Cornell, for others it will be Harvard Beginner's. A couple's second comp will always be less intimidating than their first. Which is the point of Beginner's comp - To provide a first competition.
> For most people, knowing that you're in an event with 150 other couples is
> very intimidating...
> I'm not so sure that the atmosphere is "low-pressure" anymore. This past
> year, there seemed to be more people in each of the 2 levels offered at
> Harvard Beginner's than was at UConn, Tufts, and many other local college
> comps at the coresponding levels. If anything, beginners and newbies
> seemed more intimidated at this comp, than at UConn, for example, or
> many other competions.
I agree. Large rounds can be intimidating. But I don't know if that is necessarily a bad thing. Competitions are tough, no matter how you cut it. Is 100 couples singnificantly less intimidating than 150? Is it possible that competing against 150 couples early on makes future comps with smaller entries EVEN LESS intimidating. What is the ideal "first competition"? I don't know the answer to that, but I don't think fewer couples is necessarily part of it.
Perhaps we could rank beyond 8? We'd have to figure out how to do that, but perhaps if we had places from 1-16 more couples would find it rewarding? Thoughts?
> the beginners comp has started to cater to more advanced dancers by
> adding silver/gold (looser restrictions than in the past, which only covered
> people dancing for at most 1 year). This means that A. it is no longer
> purely a beginner's comp, and B. it gets significantly more money in reg
> fees bc only beginners pay the $10
In 2004, we offered gold events. We realize we were straying from the beginner focus and have decided not to do it again.
In 2005, we dropped gold events and opted for beginner and intermediate (which was a combination of bronze and silver). This created a mismatched intermedate pool.
For 2006, we plan to offer newcomer, bronze, and silver. We also plan to
offer 4 newcomer events rather than 2.
The rationale for including silver events is that we think it helps those dancers get ready for the "real" comps that are coming up. We're not really expecting many dancers, but we thought we would offer it for those interested.
The necomer price is and has been $10. The intermediate(bronze/silver) is and has been $15. This is cheaper than pretty much every other comp around.
"Harvard doesn't invite every school to send Judges"
> we were told they "asked teams with traditionally large participation" to
> nominate judges.
> We were not asked.
I don't know who told this to you. It certainly wasn't me, and at any rate, it definitely isn't true. I have in my outbox an email sent out on October 14, 2005 to everyone on our mailing list which contained the official team letter, which included the following:
"The judging panel this year will consist primarily of HBDT alumni, however, we also invite teams to nominate one or two judges to our panel. We ask that nominated judges not have taught organized team classes or given private lessons to any current competitors (including intermedate level dancers). We impose this requirement on Harvard judges as well and hope that you understand its importance in maintaining an atmosphere of fairness and impartiality.
Please send you nominations to mgshah@law.harvard.edu by October 21. Please include the judges' name and their style and level of dancing."
MIT, Tufts, and BU sent judges, and we welcome every school to do so.
In retrospect, this was probably a poor form of communicating since not everyone is on our mailing list, and the list of competitors generated through registration typically doesn't include the team captain. (Though our team did spend upward of 40 hours scouring the web for updated team/captain email addresses. Those of you that have websites, please update your contact information and make it easy to find!). I'll make sure the information is on our website for the 2006 competition. And please send someone to judge! We would love to have them on our panel!
"Harvard hogs two dates"
> My point was only that I have heard from more than one school the past
> few years that they'd like to hold a comp, but there are no available dates.
> That's unfortunate, especially since Harvard does take two.
All of the proposed conflicts I've heard are for schools trying to hold comps in the Spring. Is someone really trying to put a full scale comp in the two weekends between UConn and Brown? Would that be viable even without Beginner's Comp? Beginner's comp only works because it's an "easy" comp just for beginners.
"Costs"
> If Harvard cannot keep costs to less than $10/person, that does not mean
> other schools cannot do better.
Then why haven't they? Brown charges $30 for newcomers. UConn charges $25. Tufts is $25. BU is $35. Hartwick came close with $15. MIT is the only other competition that even recognizes different rates for beginners, and they to keep it at $10 as well.
Anyway, the real point isn't that we can't keep the costs at $10 person, but that we do. We hope that the low entry barriers (cost, time, location, etc) will encourage more dancers to try competitive ballroom. As Chris Stratton mentioned, it is part of what we do, and we're happy to do it.
"Beginner's Comp is poorly organized"
Yes, this is absolutely true and for last year, I take the blame. It was my first comp and I didn't know what I was doing. It would have been an even worse disaster if Tim hadn't stepped in at the last minute and helped out.
We did learn a lot though and that was reflected in the Invitational. We've since made several changes internally that will prevent knowledge loss and reduce the impact of turnover. Hopefully, we'll be able to run smooth, efficient comps consistently in the future.
But one year at a time. For the 2006 Beginner's Comp, Tim and I will again be at the reins. We hope that the comp will run as smoothly if not more than the Invitational. We've taken all the comments made regarding the problems at the Invitational to heart and are working on fixes and improvements.
We really appreciate the feedback we get in this forum and I hope you'll continue to provide us with advice and suggestions.
To start it off, what are people's thoughts on the "Team Match" component of Beginner's Comp? Last year we had a rookie/vet team match (each partnership had to have one rookie and one vet). The goal was to get the advanced dancers involved with the comp somehow so that 1) those who had to be there anyway (as team captains, etc) wouldn't get bored, and 2) those who weren't planning on coming would have a little more reason to support their team. Should we keep this? Should we do a purely beginner team match? A purely Vet Team match? No team match?
Thanks!
> And if you run a competition, at least you don't have to wake up at 5 and drive for 3 hours
> before competing!