Open Right Turn in Waltz

[cornutt]

I'm having a problem with the open right turn in (smooth) waltz: After doing the initial twinkle, as I come around my partner to my backing position, we lose our connection. It seems to have to do with me stepping across the follow's line -- I can maintain the connection if I don't step across, but then I'm in her line and she has to step around me to enter the heel turn.

It would help me if I understood what the follow does there. I've tried watching it on video, and for some reason it's not making any sense to me -- it's almost like we're doing another twinkle, but then her third step appears to be just bringing the feet together and a transfer of weight. It kind of roots her on the spot, and I'm pretty sure this is why we lose our connection, because in that position she can't move. From looking at the Dancevision video, I gather that this step is supposed to be something like a heel turn for the follow. But how do I lead this? I'm having this problem with several partners, so I'm pretty sure it has to do with the lead.

[Chris Stratton]

It would help me if I understood what the follow does there. I've tried watching it on video, and for some reason it's not making any sense to me -- it's almost like we're doing another twinkle, but then her third step appears to be just bringing the feet together and a transfer of weight.

She should be passing her feet on three rather than closing them. To a first approximation, for the actual open right turn part of the figure she just takes three forward passing steps, L-R-L.

A couple of other things: try to delay reaching a 'backing' position yourself as long as possible. You are in promenade after the twinkle, and want to continue moving in the direction of your left side, without really rotating your upper body much. Your first two steps go in the same direction without foot turn, only as you arrive on the second do your feet turn to back LOD.

For the lady, look for a minute at her position between steps 1 and 2 of a plain old bronze or international waltz turn. Now ignoring the foot alignments, compare the alignment of her body in promenade at the start of the actual open natural turn - remarkably similar, isn't it? What that means is that she doesn't really have to "turn" in the open natural at all - she simply lets the same body alignment be redefined from promenade to closed without really changing it much.

[and123]

I have heard that the man should focus on "rolling around" the lady at the point of connection instead of literally trying to cut her off, and this happens before count 2 (i.e. on 1 AND) after the initial open twinkle. This should make the movement smoother for you and her. If this is the open right turn I'm familiar with, it is the man who does a heel turn, not the lady, and she steps past you OP as you are doing the heel turn (no closing of feet here, though there is a brushing action as she exits in PP). In order for her to step OP, you need to make space for her to do that, so perhaps that is another problem you are having.

I hope we're talking about the same step here....

[Laura]

I'm trying to figure out what the equivalent of this is in Standard. At first I thought it was Open Natural, but that's wrong it doesn't sound anything like the Open Natural in Standard. There, the lady basically takes three steps forward and that's about the size of it. Not sure what the guy does, but I'm quite sure it doesn't include a heel turn. I did Smooth up to Silver level, and I just can't recall! Thanks to anyone who can jog my memory.

[Chris Stratton]

Laura, think think hover telemark to pp, open natural to open impetus

[Laura]

Oh yeah, now I remember! Thanks. Hummm, let me go dance it....okay.

Thinking about it that way, it seems to me that the lady closing her feet on the Open Natural is a bad thing. She needs to feel that she is invited to go forward and has space to move forward even with you coming around in front of her. Are you cutting her off too laterally, rather than travelling the whole pattern backwards?

[Another Elizabeth]

In my experience, when couples lose connection here, it is usually because on or both is "turning off" the other - failing to keep the top oriented towards the partner. The open right turn requires a very strong shift for the leader from having the torso oriented strongly to the right (relative to the feet) in PP, to strongly to the left going into the heel pull, back to strongly to the right for the final PP. A lot of men have trouble with this dynamic and resort to leading with the arms and losing the connection. As a rule, the women seem to have less trouble, but I've also seen quite a few women who have trouble with the dynamic action of the top.

When I was coaching beginner smooth at MIT, I used the open right turn as the "hook" to begin to teach shaping, with pretty good results. It helped a lot to have people dance it reverse role, so they could get an idea of where their partner was supposed to be going, and then for the leaders to concentrate on putting all their body parts in the right place to facilitate the followers' action.

Do you dance WCS, by chance? For those who do, I've had good luck analogizing the open right turn part to a side pass. The leader gets just far enough out of the way for the lady to keep going straight down her "slot," then catches up to her as she passes.

[Joe]

Since the figure begins in PP, the leader's hips should be fairly open, while the top (as usual) remains closed. Somewhere between the beginning of step 2 and step 3, the leader's hips have to close (while the top remains in the proper position).

[Ithink]

Do you dance WCS, by chance? For those who do, I've had good luck analogizing the open right turn part to a side pass. The leader gets just far enough out of the way for the lady to keep going straight down her "slot," then catches up to her as she passes.

Of course all figures in WCS involve the leader moving out of the slot just enough for the lady to travel it;)

[Chris Stratton]

Of course all figures in WCS involve the leader moving out of the slot just enough for the lady to travel it;)

But is the passing of the bodies accomplished side-on to the direction of travel in WCS?

[Ithink]

"Side-on"? Not sure I know what you're talking about...

[Al Gisnered]

[quote=cornutt]I'm having a problem with the open right turn in (smooth) waltz: After doing the initial twinkle, as I come around my partner to my backing position, we lose our connection. It seems to have to do with me stepping across the follow's line -- I can maintain the connection if I don't step across, but then I'm in her line and she has to step around me to enter the heel turn.

snip quote]

The open right was a bear for me at the beginning also. Try thinking about what you're doing in overall terms - it might help. Starting with the end of the twinkle in promenade position you're on the inside of the lane. What you want to do is roll around the follower to the outside lane and then allow her to swing back around you so that you end on the inside lane for your continuity finish. Simple? Not quite! Took me months.

A couple of things helped me. When there was trouble, my teacher always wanted to look at the previous step to see the origin of the problem. At the outset, in PP, is the follower properly offset to your right and in good contact? If she is, you only have her right hip to roll around to get to the outside lane on Two.

Given a good PP, on One, are you trying to get ahead of her and actually moving off toward center a little ? If you do it will certainly break the connection at this point. Try moving down line of dance and slightly toward your partner. This should help to maintain connection.

For Two, feel yourself rolling around her hip. Don't worry about stepping, feel rolling. As you start to rise, establish a somewhat forward position, a little sway to the right and some right side lead.

For three, the sway and right lead will help your follower feel your right hip move back and endourage her to keep moving forward in line. If she feels totally blocked, she'll try to swerve around you, again breaking connection. (Dissolve any sway and side lead as you lower end of Three, of course.)

For the second half, it's sort of the same thing but not quite - she walks straight through for Four, swings around you as you heel turn for Five, brushes, and you both step out for Six.

For Four, are you backing down line of dance or stepping off toward wall to get out of her way? If you try to get out too far out of her way you'll either pull her off course, or get away from her and she has nothing to swing around. Also, for Five, you're a hinge for her to swing to the outside lane and you don't want to end up doing a heel turn right where she needs to place herself. So keep your body movement pretty much straight back and let the top start to turn a little in advance of the body. She should feel the door opening and she'll move straight ahead.

For Five, your heel turn, let her momentum take her past and around you - you don't need to help. You're a hinge - she's operating the door - no pulling! Stay down, turn on your heel, shift your weight and wait for her to get where she needs to go before you start to rise.

For Six, you'll just need to top your rise off in a lovely PP and step out.

It's a lovely pattern, one that my partner and I still particularly enjoy. I find that many followers try to dance it at arm's length and it just can't be done. At least comfortably, much less beautifully. A little body contact - fabric touching fabric - is about what I find most successful. More has a tendancy to push one of the partners off, particularly on the entrance to the turns. Less doesn't allow the leader to roll around or the follower to swing around the hinge.

Just my thoughts. YMMV

[pygmalion]

Hi Al Gisnered. Welcome. :D

[cornutt]

Here's what I've done with it so far. Yesterday, we had a private with the senior instructor at our studio. I had him do the open right with my DW while I watched, then he watched me do it. After he helped my DW straighten up her brushing step, he went to work on my twinkle. My basic problem was that I just wasn't stepping into the twinkle on 2 assertively enough. That made the twinkle indistinct and "mushy", and that threw off everything that came after.

So, first I had to fix that. I was really messed up on that -- the second step, the body rotation, brush-toward, head position, the whole works. The instructor worked with me and we got all that straight. Once all that was fixed, and we were doing the twinkle properly, the next three steps actually kind of fell into place. I did have to work on not being in too big a hurry to start moving backwards -- if I do that, it leads the follow to try to step into me instead of passing. (That's a problem that I've noticed before, and I never knew what to do about it.)

One other thing: Since an open right often follows an open left, there was one other thing I had to fix. I've been exiting my open lefts by taking a CBMP step on 6. That makes it difficult to close prior to starting the open right's twinkle, which is another thing that makes the twinkle "mushy". Making sure to make that 6-step a forward step, and not across the body, helps that a lot.

[Another Elizabeth]

Well, that step can be taken outside partner in CBMP and followed by a twinkle, but if it works better for you to do it in line, go for it.

In hindsight, I'm not surprised that it turned out to be the twinkle that was the problem - often when I have a step that I just can't get to work no matter what I try, the real problem turns out to be a measure or two earlier. I'm glad you got it straightened out.

[Chris Stratton]

Well, that step can be taken outside partner in CBMP and followed by a twinkle, but if it works better for you to do it in line, go for it.

I'm struggling to imagine what an inline "feather ending" would look/feel like... it might work with foot closure, but as a continuity figure with the leader moving forward, I'm doubtfull unless the couple is very close in height.

I guess my recommendation would be to dance the end of the open left (continuity or feather ending) with a strong left side lead becoming outside partner in CBMP (ie, stepping across the body as is required for an outside partner action), but then use a strong CBM to left on the first step of the twinkle, that goes right through neutral to create a right side lead. This right side lead then gives something to unwind on the second step of the twinkle, which is perhaps was what missing in the original problem.

(hmm, now where I could I picked up that idea about making the twinkle halfway to a contra check? )