Help with timing

[terremoto]

I have a question about timing in East Coast Swing and I hope someone can help me. I'm pretty new to swing - I've only been taking lessons for two months. And I wanted to know if Swing music has a specific beat that you start on. Let me explain this a little better. I have been salsa dancing for a several years and in salsa there are eight counts and you start on the same beat every time and you break on the same beat every time. There are different styles of salsa - but I dance whats called "on 1" - so I start on the first beat of the eight counts and then every time the first beat comes around again - I step forward with my left foot (there are excpetions - depending on the pattern, but thats the basic step).

However, in Swing I am confused. Are there eight counts? Are you supposed to start on the first count? And then what really confuses me is sometimes a move is lead in six counts and other moves are lead in eight counts??? I don't understand how this works with the music???

[Steve Pastor]

You asked specifically about East Coast Swing, so here's what I learned from the lessons I've had.

The basic pattern I learned is slow, slow quick quick.
That would be left, right, rock step.
Or left, right, back on your left replace weight onto your right.
If you count this as 1-2 for the first slow, 3-4 for the second slow, and 56 for the rock step - you get 6 counts.
This 6 step count works pretty well if the music is fast.

It also possible to dance this same pattern with a triple step triple step rock step. 1&2 3&4 56, which equals 123 456 78 - an eight count.
The triple steps are to the left, then to the right.
If the music is really slow, this allows you to do more movement in the same amount of time. Or, if you get bored easily, you can do this 8 count to medium speed music.

Both of these patterns fit in the same amount of music, however you want to count it.

I'll be real surprised if you don't get a different interpretation of this!

P.S. Dancing salsa on '2' makes me crazy! I think it's pretty obvious where to start when doing East Coast Swing.

[jschaab]

Hmm....

a triple-step is three steps over 2 beats of music, so both patterns described above by Steve are 6 count.

Swing music has 8 counts as you noted. Normally You will start on 1, but because the basic swing timing is 6 counts, your next basic will start on 7, then 5, etc... so really as long as you start on an odd beat its not the end of the world.

A lindy basic has 8 counts and matches the music perfectly. If mixing steps that use lindy timing with steps that use the basic east coast swing timing, I would attempt to enter the 8 count step on 1 (so basically do 6 counts in sets of 4, with lindy timing as bookends).

[leftfeetnyc]

triple steps do not make an 8 count -- 8 steps, yes, but not an 8 count

Swing music is in 4/4 time. i.e. it's counted 1 2 3 4, 2 2 3 4 and so on.

ECS is a 6 count dance with or without triples. One basic move takes a measure and a half of music. There for it takes 4 basics to match up with the music.

ECS is a divergent dance from Lindy Hop --the original swing--which was 8 counts. One basic move takes two measures of music.

ECS was created to make a simpler version of swing for people to learn in the studios. It does not match up with the music perfectly. The 1 of your dance will only match up with the 1 of the music every once in a while.

Just like those learning salsa for the first time, don't worry about the actually count of the music. Just find the beat and find the 1. Start there. One the dance becomes more natural you can focus a little more on playing with extended counts and doing things to the music.

I sometimes think ECS should be considered a 12 count dance since that's the number of steps required to match up with the music count.

[terremoto]

Thanks everyone - even though I got different answers - all of them put together make sense - more or less!! Greatly appreciated :D

By the way - Steve Pastor - do you go out swing dancing or salsa dancing in Portland? Just curious because I live in Portland.

[blue]

However, in Swing I am confused. Are there eight counts? Are you supposed to start on the first count? And then what really confuses me is sometimes a move is lead in six counts and other moves are lead in eight counts??? I don't understand how this works with the music???

It is weird. There are other dances where the basic dance rhythm is not identical to the music (foxtrot, right?) and for us lindy people, who start with the eight count, it probably seems a bit more logical. ECS is AFAIK based on the six counts, that also are present in lindy. In the end, you will end up with pretty much "odd counts" and "even counts" - the rest doesn't matter! What is beyond this simplicated picture is musicality, which will come in time provided you actually listen to the music that you dance to, I mean apart from dancing.

[Dancelf]

It is weird. There are other dances where the basic dance rhythm is not identical to the music (foxtrot, right?) and for us lindy people, who start with the eight count, it probably seems a bit more logical. ECS is AFAIK based on the six counts, that also are present in lindy. In the end, you will end up with pretty much "odd counts" and "even counts" - the rest doesn't matter! What is beyond this simplicated picture is musicality, which will come in time provided you actually listen to the music that you dance to, I mean apart from dancing.

West Coast Swing has a similar issue (lots of basic patterns that span 6 beats, but music with 8 beat "mini-phrases").

The eventual answer is that you vary the expression of the pattern to match where you are in the phrase. For example, when dancing to 12 bar blues (48 beats), you can dance the "same" side pass 8 times in a row (6x8 = 48 ), but each sidepass is distinct because it is expressed to match the character of the music playing at that point in time (the accent of the 1 beat falls in different places in the pattern, the underlying chords are slightly different, etc).

You might see the same thing in salsa, if you watch the good salceros very carefully - does a basic that starts on the first count of the verse look the same as a basic that starts on the ninth count of the verse? My guess is that they look very similar, but only similar - not actually the same.

[terremoto]

does a basic that starts on the first count of the verse look the same as a basic that starts on the ninth count of the verse? My guess is that they look very similar, but only similar - not actually the same.

Salsa has eight counts per measure and some people start on the first beat (like myself) the next most popular style is starting on the second beat. The step to the first beat for an on one dancer is similar (but not exactly) to the sixth beat for an on two dancer. However, there are other styles of salsa that have a very different basic step - for example, typical cuban and mexican salsa dancers do not necessarily start on the one or the two and their basic step does not really resemble either a typical on one or on two dancer.

[Dancelf]

Salsa has eight counts per measure and some people start on the first beat (like myself) the next most popular style is starting on the second beat. The step to the first beat for an on one dancer is similar (but not exactly) to the sixth beat for an on two dancer. However, there are other styles of salsa that have a very different basic step - for example, typical cuban and mexican salsa dancers do not necessarily start on the one or the two and their basic step does not really resemble either a typical on one or on two dancer.

Which beat you break on has nothing to do with the difference I was talking about.

You've got four 8-beat "measures" in a verse, right? General rule, but not hard and fast. So if you are breaking on the one of each measure, then you are breaking on beats 1,9,17,and 25 of the verse.

Now consider some fundamental pattern - your basic will do, but I would expect this to apply to any movement. It will fit with the music just as well when you start it on beat 25 as when you start it on beat 1, right? because you are just dancing 8s over and over.

But if you listen carefully to the music (not just the beat, but the melody and chord structure and so on), beat 25 doesn't sound the same as beat 1 (unchecked - my salsa collections have been lost, and it isn't my scene). If that difference is there, I would expect the good salceros to be expressing it; not by doing different patterns, but by doing the pattern differently - varying the sizes, or the lines, or the amount of accent/articulation in the movement, or blah blah blah.

In any case, that's what happens in swing - except moreso, because our patterns don't always synch up with the beginning of the measure.

[Flat Shoes]

Swing is polyrhytmic, which means you have several layers of rhytm and music structure. The basic unit can be considered to be two beats, one two, one two, one two etc.

Then you have four beats to the bar. And you have two bars giving and eight count phrase.

All patterns wil normally begin on the one beat of the basic one-two pattern. I write 'normally' because there is a huge degree of freedom in swing. And it's possible to make exceptions. Although they shouldn't be too many, or they'll disrupt the feel of the dance. Which 'one' beat you start a pattern on, doesn't really matter.

Most swing forms have patterns of 4, 6, 8, 10, 12 beats and more, even though some has a base pattern of six beats like ECS and Boogie Woogie, while Lindy has an eight beat base pattern. I thin WCS is also considered an eight count basic. (If I mix count and beat here, it really doesn't matter. It's the beats you count.)

When dancin Lindy, with mostly eight count patterns, I tend to do most patterns in sync with the eight count phrases. This is easiest, and gives the best feel. However, depending on the music, my partner, my mood etc. There is no problem starting an eight count pattern on 3, 5 or 7. However, this does not feel as natural and comfortable, so usually when dancing I do this only for a while before settling back where each eight count mathces the 8 count phrase of the music.

Usually when I do Lindy, I do a lot of 8 count in sync with the phrases. Then I mix it up with different patterns of different lenghts, before settling back again. As I said, it depends on the music, my partner, and my mood.

When it comes to swing forms with a six count base and dominated by six count patterns, there is not the same natural sync to the eight count phrases of the music. Doing only six count patterns, the first step of a new pattern starts on 1, 7, 5, 3, 1, 7, 5, 3 etc.

What we have here is a six count rhytm out of phase with the eight count phrases. This gives a dual rhythm thing going, which is perfectly fine.

Even though the pattern above is not following the eight count phrases, it still matches the music. Note that it you begin on one again after each four six counts. That is after each third eight count phrase. (4*6=3*8=24 beats)

Incidentally, swing music is very often built up with three repeating eight count phrases with the fourth being different and often a break. So if BW or ECS dancers dances four 6-count patterns and doing an 8-count break, they will be in perfectly sync with these larger structures in the music. (These larger structures also repeats itselfs in swing (AABA) and blues (AAAABA) schemas, but I'm not going into that here.)

To sum up. Swing music has lots of different rhytms and structures in different layers. The basic unit is the one-two beats. How this is interpreted into the dance is a question of musicality, more than rules. There are no hard and fast rules you need to comply to, but there are some things that will feel more right than others.

[Vince A]

terremoto,
Some great info in these post . . . hope they helped you.

One thing I might add . . . which has been touched on, is that not ALL swing music is written in 4/4 time. I can also be written in 2/2 time, and the exact same song can be written in 4/4 in one song book and 2/2 in another.

There is also 6/8 and 12/8 swing music. Could be others.

However, as also mentioned here, most is written in consecutive eight-counts or eighths. The most important aspect of this is having that "swing feel" in the first measure of the music, though "the swing" is more of an interpretation of the music . . . what you do is also very important . . . and each movement that is done by the musician makes a song a "swing" song, an what you as a dancer gives it that "swing look."

Counting (only my 2 cents), if anyone counts these days, the lead should be counting, and the follow shouldn't count at all - but should concentrate on the rhythm . . . and if counting in eighths helps the follow to get and/or stay in rhythm . . . all the better.

A lot of leads have had songs that the beat was a struggle to stay on, or even get into to. If the follow has this rhythm, then the follow could/should help the lead get or stay on beat.

Most Intermediate or higher level dancers rarely count during social dancing, however, if they are competiting, most leads and follows count.

[tangotime]

Firstly -- a HUGE thanks for correcting this illusion that music is counted thru 8--- there only4 beats to a bar of music one ascending-- one descending-- but are treated individually-- THAT is why it is designated 2/4-- 3/4 / or 4/4 -- showing the accent on the given beat within the bar-- with all swing being derived from jazz as its base form --is generally written in 2/4 and 4/4 depending on the ochestrator-- and is always counted in beats and bars-- this 8 thing has taken on a life of its own-- reason--- people listening to choreographers counting down a phrase or chorus- which is okay- but-- once having done that-- one needs to illuminate the specific bar you are dancing on during the course of a given song so that easy identification can be made to highlite any given problem--just listen to a conductor how he corrects his musicians-- always referring to the specific bar to be challenged -- and to syncop--- usually joining 2 notes by the designation of and --as in 1 and 2 -- they come in various positions depending on the variation-- and lastly-- three different rythms in swing-- single-- double and triple - if you are new to the arena- be patient -- it will all make sense ( am a former examiner in ballroom ) and last but not least-- make sure your teacher has the experience to develop your talents-- good luck in comp.

[Vince A]

If you ever get the time to do some research here on the DF, there is a really good post (Swing Forum) by "d nice" on 'the counts in swing music' . . . he knows his stuff, and is an authority on the subject . . .

[tangotime]

Thankyou, thankyou, thankyou!!!-- have been beating this drum for ever, the misconception of musical arrangement.-- 2/4-- 3/4 -- 4/4 and 6/8. All dances are written within those parameters. the " 8 " count stems from choreographers counting down to the next phrase or chorus. there are TWO bars in a salsa basic comprising of ,q,q,s-- q,q,s , the equivalent of ( here,s your 8 ) 2 beats for the slow and one for each quick, an ascending bar and a descending bar. All dances are danced to the RYTHM of the music, that is the slows and the quicks . I, know whats coming from all 4 corners-- thats the way that every body teaches it-- NOT true . you may find it easier to teach and count that way, that does not make it correct .being a former examiner, i can assure you that if you demonstrated figures counting in numbers you would surely fail. It may be easier as i have stated , for students to identify the content by the number of steps, however , it does not tell them the speed at which they should be moving . So, if you insist on counting by numbers , at least count all the beats in the bar- 1,2-- 34 .

[tangotime]

Forgot to mention, this was aimed primarily at salsa where the " counting by numbers " is most prolific, but seems to happen most any where .

[Steve Pastor]

"Swing has never been properly defined, but it is empirically present (or not present) in performance, and it imparts a special quality of momentum." p19 "The Smithsonian Collection of Classic Jazz"
I guess I'm being picky here, (see the Original Music West Coast Swing was danced to" thread to see why I've gotten into this) but I think the statment that "with all swing being derived from jazz as its base form" is a bit misleading.
The concept of swing comes from jazz.
Vince wrote about the concept of "swing" in his post of 6-05-2006.
Hopefully, this rewording will be aceptable.

just a non musician trying to get it right

[Steve Pastor]

Hey, Vince, does "Big Momma" Thornton's "Hound Dog" - a jump blues - swing?

[Vince A]

Hiya Steve . . . ya' know I have that recorded somewhere, but have never danced to it. It's swing alright, and it's blues . . .

I love to play the blues, and for me . . . blues comes from the heart . . . and what is being felt at the moment it's played!!! Hence, if you are in a good mood, you play somebody else's stuff, but if you are 'blue,' you play what you feel!

[tangotime]

Steve, you made a very valid point. To extrapolate the thesis, add this. As the " swing " music evolved, so the performance in dance changed to suit the different interpretations, hence the wide variety of hybrid dances in the genre.