Negative comments from non-dancers

[tanya_the_dancer]

This is somewhat prompted by the cruise I went to. Our group's routine was somewhat like this. Gather at 5, dance until 5:30, go to dinner. Then gather at 7:15-7:30 and dance until the long music break, then gather again around 9 and dance again. There were some other people who danced too, but not too many (although we ignored the disco lounge). Anyway, occasionally we would receive nice compliments from non-dancers sitting around - that they enjoyed watching us dance, etc. But one day at breakfast I overheard a conversation at the next table regarding "those ballroom dancers showing off" spoken in a rather irate voice. After that I paid attention a bit at our next dance and noticed that quite a few people were looking at us in somewhat annoyed sort of way. Now why would that be? We weren't a rowdy bunch, we weren't falling on anyone sitting around in the lounge, the band was playing anyway, so we were not contributing any extra noise. My guess was that they were jealous somehow. Has anyone encountered something like this?

[saludas]

People are ALWAYS insecure and jealous. the phrase is 'crabs in a barrel' - they can't stand it when someone elevates themselves.

Anyway, what do you care about non dancers? They have no perspective on what you are doing - maybe if a real dancer offered a comment like that I'd listen, but certainly not Mr and Mrs Obese Fannypack.

[tanya_the_dancer]

People are ALWAYS insecure and jealous. the phrase is 'crabs in a barrel' - they can't stand it when someone elevates themselves.

Anyway, what do you care about non dancers? They have no perspective on what you are doing - maybe if a real dancer offered a comment like that I'd listen, but certainly not Mr and Mrs Obese Fannypack.
I just find this amusing. And I guess I like to analyze those things.

[pygmalion]

I don't know what motivated the negativity. But hey. You paid for your cruise just like they did. As long as your groups wasn't rowdy or disruptive, it's none of their business what you choose to do to entertain yourself on your cruise.


Have I heard remarks like that? No. Not really. I have had a few raised eyebrows when I mention that I'm into ballroom. But I think that's as much because of cultural issues as anything else. No jealousy, that I can detect. Just people wondering what the heck motivates me. lol.

[PasoDancer]

The ones who make fun of us don't understand ballroom dancing for what it is- to us, at least.

When these people with NO ballroom dancing knowledge at all see people doing a simple travelling half-box for waltz or foxtrot, or a cha-cha basic with under-arm turn and chasses, and a simple cross-body lead, they don't realize how "easy" it is to do those elements. It's like a person getting on a horse and galloping- if you have enough balance to just sit there, it's easy- but if you've never tried it and don't know that, it looks "amazing"- either in dancing or riding.

They see people who dance not as having fun, absorbed in the magical, happy world they've worked hard to build by hand with a partner from the ground up. They see people "hogging the floor"... that could otherwise be empty (this they don't realize either). They complain, but they have nothing to contribute to "improve" the situation any, either.

People who truly love to dance will dance- anywhere they can, any time they can. It's why I'm broke all the time.

They couldn't possibly see how I would hate to sit down at their home and have Adorable Little Fifi The Teacup Poodle scamper up into my lap and wriggle all over my Ralph Lauren skirt. They don't understand that I despise the scent of dog, the little nappy white hairs, the disgusting sensation of a cold, wet nose. The same people don't see why I scrub until I'm raw when a child's grubby, clammy hand touches me anywhere, or if they brush past my leg in a store, how I immediately have to go home and change clothes.

It's our world, they aren't a part of it for whatever reason. They can't understand why we're the way we are any more than we can understand why they're the way they are. Profound passion for dance blinds us to the indifference or disregard of those who don't appreciate it.

Some are no more jealous of our dancing than I would be of someone who could ride a motorcycle. I simply don't like motorcycles. They don't interest me. If you do, that's great- I don't have to like or be included in it, because I think it's daunting, scary, and dangerous- just as many people think that dancing is scary to try.

No amount of "tutelage" can change or convince these people because they are individuals with preconceived notions. They have to want to learn about it to change their minds. Most won't. They think that ballroom dancing is for elitist snobs and "fags" (we hear this a lot where we are), and that everything is so grandiose about it. We think that it's an expression of happiness, and it's a rush to fly around a floor in complete (hopefully- ok, sometimes) control of our bodies with an actual degree of artistic ability to express ourselves. We're proud that we have learned to do something like this. It cost time and money to do this. It surprises me when we get compliments, and I will never believe someone who calls me "pretty" or "beautiful", but I like to hear it from people who speak it genuinely still. It's something I can do and love to do that someone else can't, but I'm not going to hold it over them, because it's not right to. I can dance, but other people could paint, sew, do brain surgery, or dance a different style. To say "I can and you can't" is apples and oranges, even though it makes us feel better to know we can.

It's just that people are so conditioned to be meek and humble through all of this Desiderate bullshit- we've actually been taught NOT to be proud of our accomplishments. By wearing a pretty dress, putting on jewelry or makeup, laughing aloud, singing, dancing... to some people you're saying "you're better than they are" because you're "outward" about it. Some cultures want you to "hide" that. I could get all anti-biblical about boasting, pride, vanity, and other things I don't believe in to THAT precise degree, but it would disentigrate the thread.

Hopefully you see where I"m coming from. Some people are just... well...

[cornutt]

Scroom. :p It's like the guys who make comments about how ballroom dancing isn't manly. I just ask them, "How many women have you been in body contact with today?" ;)

[Stiletto One]

Scroom. :p It's like the guys who make comments about how ballroom dancing isn't manly. I just ask them, "How many women have you been in body contact with today?" ;)Yeah really.

I love it when guys (I'm a student at North Carolina State U., by the way, for a bit of setting) call me gay for being a ballroom dancer. Aside from the obvious "so what, I get to touch hawt chix all the time", it's a lot of fun to pull an about-face and ask them what's the heaviest caliber rifle they can fire accurately from an unsupported position without a recoil pad.

Mental whiplash. It's great. I'm a military rifle collector, dancer, photographer, and computer geek...and I have just as much classical on my computer as I have techno.

[africana]

I don't think it's acccurate or helpful to say there's ABSOLUTELY no reason why someone might react negatively to a style of dancing or to a dancer. Because perception is very subjective, and changes DRAMATICALLY depending on if the observer understands or has experienced what it takes to achieve any set of dance related skills. For example, dancers tend to be very appreciative of amateur performances in that they examine and weigh the technical content of a routine, or cheer based on communal comraderie (they understand what it takes to do it) whereas non-dancers or outsiders will grade the same routine based on entertainment quality, and more often than not only the REALLY impressive dancers will command their extended attention, adoration, etc...
hence the purpose of the professional dancer >> entertainment of non-dancers, that's where the $$ is...

Ok back to my main point, non-dancers/outsiders will tend to value dancing based on the amount of competence that they percieve, and their measure of competence is a bit different from that of dancers, including such things as how natural the dancing looks, the musicality aspect, how much fun the dancers seem to be having, etc. And we know these things can be difficult to achieve...They aren't directly scoring tehcnique, or lead/follow skill, or control, or any other mechanics, just the general vibe or feel of the dancers...

This issue isn't just a ballroom thing, but mainly a schooled-dancer issue...
so yeah beauty is in the eye of the holder

[pygmalion]

Yeah. Stereotypes are funny. Not quite sure why people assume (although I certainly belive they do assume) that guys who dance can't possibly be into "guy stuff."

Very silly. The guy dancers I've met have been either dyed-in-the-wool gay (a small minority) or very seriously male. That just goes to show that stereotypes don't mean much, in the real world. lol.

@ the OP I wonder if the person you overheard wanted to learn to dance.

[Peaches]

Yeah really.

I love it when guys (I'm a student at North Carolina State U., by the way, for a bit of setting) call me gay for being a ballroom dancer. Aside from the obvious "so what, I get to touch hawt chix all the time", it's a lot of fun to pull an about-face and ask them what's the heaviest caliber rifle they can fire accurately from an unsupported position without a recoil pad.

Mental whiplash. It's great. I'm a military rifle collector, dancer, photographer, and computer geek...and I have just as much classical on my computer as I have techno.


I love this, it reminds me of a guy I went to high school with who was on the dance team (and soccer team and lacrosse team at times).

Other guys used to give him grief about being gay because he danced. His response was always the same...THEY got to see other guys nekkid in the locker rooms. Meanwhile, HE got to spend plenty of time backstage with nearly nekkid, very beautiful girls, and lots of them. They (especially the football guys) got to spend their time grabbing other guys...he got to spend his time feeling beautiful girls. ...yeah, who's gay?

Not that there's anything wrong with that. ;-)

[africana]

also to add what I said above: sometimes a particular style of dancing attracts attention simply by the nature of it, the bigness of the movements, or the amount of space taken up, so it puts a lot more pressure on the "performing" dancers to come up to par, to display the characteristics I mentioned above

by the way, we once disucssed dancing at non-dancer events like weddings and such, we elaborated on the reasons for some of the negative attention that results from that

[pygmalion]

Ok back to my main point, non-dancers/outsiders will tend to value dancing based on the amount of competence that they percieve, and their measure of competence is a bit different from that of dancers, including such things as how natural the dancing looks, the musicality aspect, how much fun the dancers seem to be having, etc. And we know these things can be difficult to achieve...They aren't directly scoring tehcnique, or lead/follow skill, or control, or any other mechanics, just the general vibe or feel of the dancers...

It seems that this person perceived a very high level of competence. Hmm.

I guess I kinda see the other side, too, having been at a ballroom gathering or two. Sometimes ballroom people DO come across as showing off. And, to make it worse, if people are trained as competitive dancers, showing off is kinda what they do best, to misquote Tigger. Competitive dancers are trained to show off. So, if you juxtapose that against regular, grope-and-sway dancers/dancing, I can see why there might be a negative perception.

That said, if I pay to go on a vacation, I'm going to try my best to enjoy myself, whether or not the people observing approve of my actions. lol.

[pygmalion]

For some reason, the system duplicated my post. Grr. :headwall:

[africana]

That said, if I pay to go on a vacation, I'm going to try my best to enjoy myself, whether or not the people observing approve of my actions. lol. oh definitely! even in a club, if you paid cover to get in, you should dance how you wish (with safety/consideration in mind of course ;) )

[SPratt74]

Yeah. Stereotypes are funny. Not quite sure why people assume (although I certainly belive they do assume) that guys who dance can't possibly be into "guy stuff."

Very silly. The guy dancers I've met have been either dyed-in-the-wool gay (a small minority) or very seriously male. That just goes to show that stereotypes don't mean much, in the real world. lol.

@ the OP I wonder if the person you overheard wanted to learn to dance.

Oh I so know what you mean!!! Today we were discussing my dancing, and there is one guy that just won't dance. He completely refused. I told him at our studio that we have every type of guy possible even army guys lol. And he still refused. I even told him that we had more men than women and still refused! So, I know what you mean. There are some people that will stereotype us no matter what.

Problem is like with this guy. He's a bit over weight, so I have a feeling that it's because of that is why he doesn't think he can dance. That's so not true. I've danced with guys of all different sizes. And what's funny is that I think that deep down he wants to learn, because he started asking me details, which is usually a sign that they really want to dance! So, these people that are stereotyping us might feel insecure because of some other issue that we don't know about. But I think that if you got to talking to them, that eventually you will find out that they do want to dance, but don't think that they can for whatever reason is holding them back.

[fascination]

This is somewhat prompted by the cruise I went to. Our group's routine was somewhat like this. Gather at 5, dance until 5:30, go to dinner. Then gather at 7:15-7:30 and dance until the long music break, then gather again around 9 and dance again. There were some other people who danced too, but not too many (although we ignored the disco lounge). Anyway, occasionally we would receive nice compliments from non-dancers sitting around - that they enjoyed watching us dance, etc. But one day at breakfast I overheard a conversation at the next table regarding "those ballroom dancers showing off" spoken in a rather irate voice. After that I paid attention a bit at our next dance and noticed that quite a few people were looking at us in somewhat annoyed sort of way. Now why would that be? We weren't a rowdy bunch, we weren't falling on anyone sitting around in the lounge, the band was playing anyway, so we were not contributing any extra noise. My guess was that they were jealous somehow. Has anyone encountered something like this?hey dont feel bad...I get that from some of the social dancers at my STUDIO...

[Sabor]

why would anyone care about what people they don't even know know think about anything one does??

unless u are self concious or doubt what u do or not love it enough its an utter and absolute waste of energy in my view..

[Spitfire]

Haven't really experienced this myself. On a few occasions where I've gone out with some other people from the studio to some lounge after the Friday or Saturday dance social and danced we've received applause from onlookers.

[SPratt74]

You know now that I think about it, when we go to the clubs, our instructors will go and get the people that are sitting down to join us in dancing. They don't care, because they know how to sweet talk people and get them in the mood to dance! We've actually gained a few customers that way. I know, because when they come from the club, they are like, aren't you the girl that was in the club dancing? And they seem to have fun with it. So, maybe instead of taking the looks as a bad sign, try getting them on the dance floor! You might be amazed that they actually do want to learn!

[quixotedlm]

But one day at breakfast I overheard a conversation at the next table regarding "those ballroom dancers showing off" spoken in a rather irate voice. After that I paid attention a bit at our next dance and noticed that quite a few people were looking at us in somewhat annoyed sort of way. Now why would that be?

Quite simply because it makes the dance floor very unapproachable for those who can't dance but would like to shake their legs anyway. You are setting a standard by simply being there, and it feels to a non-dancer like there is a clique of 'sophisticated' dancers who 'own' the floor and the rest of them can't enter the stage unless they are capable dancers too. It further annoys them when they realize that they can't enjoy what they've paid for.

It might be true that you haven't done anything to specifically forbid their entry into the floor, and the non-dancers have only themselves to blame for their state of mind. Still, that would only serve to absolve you (rightly so). It is still a fact that many poeple are shy and can't bring themselves to be a 'lone sheep' esp. when they are not skilled either.

[PasoDancer]

Sabor, have you ever been a three-hundred pound sweaty white girl in the middle of well-tanned, well-coiffed, well-dressed middle-aged, otherwise-hyphenated women who can do Silver, the elusive, mysterious Silver- and let you know it?

No, you haven't. You're cute. You dance well. You're exotic and charismatic. The world as YOU know it is paved for you. Some of us have to bulldoze a path before we can relax.

[blue]

Quite simply because it makes the dance floor very unapproachable for those who can't dance but would like to shake their legs anyway. You are setting a standard by simply being there, and it feels to a non-dancer like there is a clique of 'sophisticated' dancers who 'own' the floor and the rest of them can't enter the stage unless they are capable dancers too. It further annoys them when they realize that they can't enjoy what they've paid for.

To me this sounds like right on the spot.

[Chris Stratton]

Sounds like the observers may be somewhat mistaking hard work for talent, too. It's easy to sort the world into dancers and non dancers, but in reality it is dancers vs haven't yet met a good teacher 's

[Phil Owl]

Scroom. :p It's like the guys who make comments about how ballroom dancing isn't manly. I just ask them, "How many women have you been in body contact with today?" ;)

ROTFLMAO!!!! :lol: :mrgreen: Good one!!!

I say to skeptics, you think dancing isn't physical? Try 2 or 3 consecutive songs of Salsa, Swing or Viennese Waltz, that my friend is a WORKOUT!

And this dancing strigiforme is about to take a plunge into the world of powered 2-wheelers MUWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!

[fascination]

Scroom. :p It's like the guys who make comments about how ballroom dancing isn't manly. I just ask them, "How many women have you been in body contact with today?" ;)precisely:cool: I never knew a ribcage could be soooooo....mmmmmmm(hangs do not disturb sign)

[fascination]

Sabor, have you ever been a three-hundred pound sweaty white girl in the middle of well-tanned, well-coiffed, well-dressed middle-aged, otherwise-hyphenated women who can do Silver, the elusive, mysterious Silver- and let you know it?

No, you haven't. You're cute. You dance well. You're exotic and charismatic. The world as YOU know it is paved for you. Some of us have to bulldoze a path before we can relax.and then park the bulldozer and learn how to drive the jaguar:cool:

[Sabor]

PasoDancer.. i appreciate the point u make.. but how do u know all those things that u ASSUME about me.. that my 'road is paved' etc.. ??.. is how u look the measure u go by to feel comfortable w/ yourself? i think its part of it ofcourse but NOT where it originates from.. far from it.. i'd feel the same if i was short or tall .. fat or skinny.. bald or hairy or whatever.. it comes from inside always.. no matter what u do to your 'shell' u will always feel inadequate and intimidated if its not inside out.. that i beleive..

and no body said its a magical trick that u just snap your fingers and voila.. u are cured.. its a process .. a process of experience, thinking, feeling, wisdom, grace and LOVE.. if i may highlight what i wrote earlier..

unless u are self concious or doubt what u do or not love it enough its an utter and absolute waste of energy in my view..

some people focuss on the negative more .. and some on the positive.. and some both.. me, all i know is that i'm in LOVE w/ dance..

best wishes to u..

[PasoDancer]

... So you're saying you're a 300-lb white girl? :razz:

[fascination]

paso...I am prescribing the same recipe for you as for alemana....reading your location....you are definately on the rise ...IMO just doesnt feel like it...

(re:the other thread)...afterall you could have slapped your partner but you DIDNT...that takes discipline...lol....

anyhow, I think Sabor is just trying to explain ...hug...

[PasoDancer]

I promise I'll take a break after January. Just 'til January.

[tanya_the_dancer]

I don't think it's acccurate or helpful to say there's ABSOLUTELY no reason why someone might react negatively to a style of dancing or to a dancer. Because perception is very subjective, and changes DRAMATICALLY depending on if the observer understands or has experienced what it takes to achieve any set of dance related skills. For example, dancers tend to be very appreciative of amateur performances in that they examine and weigh the technical content of a routine, or cheer based on communal comraderie (they understand what it takes to do it) whereas non-dancers or outsiders will grade the same routine based on entertainment quality, and more often than not only the REALLY impressive dancers will command their extended attention, adoration, etc...
hence the purpose of the professional dancer >> entertainment of non-dancers, that's where the $$ is...

Ok back to my main point, non-dancers/outsiders will tend to value dancing based on the amount of competence that they percieve, and their measure of competence is a bit different from that of dancers, including such things as how natural the dancing looks, the musicality aspect, how much fun the dancers seem to be having, etc. And we know these things can be difficult to achieve...They aren't directly scoring tehcnique, or lead/follow skill, or control, or any other mechanics, just the general vibe or feel of the dancers...

This issue isn't just a ballroom thing, but mainly a schooled-dancer issue...
so yeah beauty is in the eye of the holder
I don't think it's a reaction to the style of dancing, it's a reaction to the process. I guess, like someone else put it, people are annoyed that we ordinary dancers are on the floor (in a spotlight, so to speak) while they're sitting quietly in their corner, and to them it appears like we are attention grabbers (hence the show-offs comments).

[fascination]

I promise I'll take a break after January. Just 'til January.I meant a one day wellness rest for crying out loud....;)

[PasoDancer]

No rest for the wicce'd, you know that!

[fascination]

lol...

[Twilight_Elena]

@OP: Gawd. Some people are really jealous. How 5th grade is that, "they're showing off, look! Those ballroom people!" It's not like you exhibited some sort of snobbish behaviour.
Personally, I haven't danced anywhere outside the ballroom community, but it's silly, really. If I do run across such a behaviour I'll let you know.

T_E

[tanya_the_dancer]

@OP: Gawd. Some people are really jealous. How 5th grade is that, "they're showing off, look! Those ballroom people!" It's not like you exhibited some sort of snobbish behaviour.
Personally, I haven't danced anywhere outside the ballroom community, but it's silly, really. If I do run across such a behaviour I'll let you know.

T_E
We occasionally have things like dinner/dance here, sponsored by some charity or employer (university which my husband works for likes to set these up once in a while). These attract people who don't dance, but like to eat socially - hey, I just came up with a new term - social eaters.

[latingal]

You know, I got a similar reaction - though physical - from a dancer on a social dance floor about a month or two ago (so no, it's not just "non-dancers").

I was enjoying an int'l cha-cha on the floor, the dance floor was not crowded and there was plenty of room for us to dance and pass unimpeded by others. I was finishing a fan position (so I was pretty much stopped at the time in a stable position) and received a very hard shove on my right shoulder. This was not a simple arm brace to let me know someone was on my right/back side, but an all out shove with enough force to knock someone over.

I was very suprised by the whole thing. I, for a minute thought perhaps we had come too close to somebody, but I was stopped in a fan position at the time (they moved into us!). Luckily I did stay on my feet and just kept going - with a fairly shocked look on my face - after they danced away. Later on the leader of that couple came to me and apologized for the follower's behavior saying the shove was "uncalled for".

I think I received this shove for the very same reasons that have been discussed here in this post about comments from "non-dancers"....shocking....:shock: