Comps -- pro/am or am/am

[pygmalion]

My competition saga continues. Now that I have one whole dance competition under my belt, I'm thinking about the competition process, and what is really right for me. So of course I'm considering amateur competition versus proam compeition. Question: What are the relative mertis of each? Is there a right or wrong way to go?

[AnnieMarie]

I don't know how much light I will shed but I will give my thoughts. I am not heavily vested in competition...yet. I went to my first workshop/competition weekend in 2001. I was in awe of all the dancing. Then bug bit me in the ear and said "you can do that Ann." So I started off competing in Line dance but that proved a bit of a challenge without having someone in my area who could really instruct me on the competitive aspects. So now, I am taking multitudes of classes and privates and hoping to get into Pro/Ams next year.

I think there are things that can be learned from both. In Pro/Am you are judged specifically on your dancing. So you will learn where you need improvement.

AM/AM competition would be helpful in developing overall skills as a partnership in addition to working on your own dancing. YOu are judged as a total partnership.

I see benefits to doing both. I would love to do AM/AM competition as well. Finding a partner is never an easy task.

I see benefits to both. Okay...now that I haven't really helped at all. I hope to post on my expereinces as they unfold next year.

[Vince A]

Hi Jenn,
I agree with AnnieMarie . . . both can help you. Presently, I am learning Carolyn's Advanced Routine . . . her Pro's part. Totally new stuff for me, and "Am I Learning?" I'll say. He is there to coach us and to show me what he does with particularly difficult stuff.

She paid for it, so we can perform them as a couple, although we can enter at the lowest level because of her status . . . and we may points deducted for the "degree of difficulty," so to say. We don't need to win, we just want to dance well as a couple . . .

I think you "grow" faster in Pro-Am, but . . . ???

I'm only one voice.

Vince

[SDsalsaguy]

I think you "grow" faster in Pro-Am, but . . . ???
Per hour this is most likely to be the case...*but* the ammount of time available to practice with an Am partner is not restricted to paid lesson time, which also has something to be said for it!

[Larinda McRaven]

interesting topic...Obviously if you have no am partner, then pro-am is a wonderful option. If you do have a partner things get a little gray.

Right now this is being debated with in the studio that I teach. The owner is trying to encourage one of the girls (part of a married am couple) to compete pro-am with him. The girl is well above the level of the owner, but his argument is that doing pro-am will get the girl and her husband lots of exposure for their amatuer competitions. The husbands response is that they don't need NDCA recognition, they need Usabda and YCN exposure of which pro-am plays no part.

I was unfortunately drawn into the battle and I gave this rather ambiguous answer. Pro-am will help with confidence because there is somewhat less pressure on the am. She/he is well taken care of on the comp floor. If the am is behind their am partner in knowledge or skill, then doing pro-am lessons or comps can help him or her to "catch up" by doing some work strictly on themselves, with out the "blind leading the blind" syndrome.

If however the am couple (definately in our studios case, this is a champ level couple) is very capable and succesful already, then doing pro-am can actually detract from the "learning as a team" process. As this girls ultimate goal is dancing succesfully with her husband, then retraining her body to match someone whose physique is different than her husbands, ultimately leads her in the wrong direction. In this case the am couple are both normal-to-short in height and very well matched. The teacher is very tall with an very low waist and really long torso and high center.

I couldn't really say what I think as I risked irking whoever I did not side with. However, Steve and I have a strict policy. We never split our couples up for competitions unless they are persistent about it. We might suggest for the lower level couples that they split lessons occasionally to help each one sort out their own issues, but we never keep them apart for more than a few hours. And only if we feel that doing any of this offers them a new challenge and an opportunity to grow. Otherwise it does very little good in our opinion.

[Vince A]

I think you "grow" faster in Pro-Am, but . . . ???
Per hour this is most likely to be the case...*but* the ammount of time available to practice with an Am partner is not restricted to paid lesson time, which also has something to be said for it!
Which is where I was headed. I would have time to practice with an Am, however, you do have to pay for studio time . . . you just cannot practice Am-Am at a bar/dance place. Or at least, I couldn't!

Plus two Am's competing . . . they have to pay for someone to do choreography, coaching, and matching costumes, etc. I think it's twice as expensive.

And in the case with Carolyn and I . . . I have to learn her Pro's part of her routine. She is the Advanced dancer and I am the Intermediate, not because she started before me or I didn't compete last year, but because she is a better dancer. Both of us compete with our own Pro, and if we do Am/Am next year . . . I have to dance at the level of her Pro. Learning to do this will take Pro-Am-type privates with him, just so Care doesn't have to dance down to my level.

Then, Larinda above, makes a few interesting points that I need to think about. The sizes between Care's Pro and me. Maybe the same height, but I probably have 20 pounds on him. She will have to make adjustments, and will this throw off her Pro-Am dancing next year with her Pro???

Hm-m-m-m-m-m-m-m . . .

[Taita]

My 2 cents....

(DISCLAIMER: I am not a lady, I can only speak from my own experience observing and chatting with ladies who do compete pro-am). From what I have observed, ladies can benefit greatly from either an Amateur or a pro-am situation. Due to the relative scarcity of good male partners, pro-am competitions are quite popular. A pro-am situation has many benefits. In the beginning, it's a great way to get 'jump start' your dancing and can put you on the dancefloor in a competition in very short order. You don't need to worry about your partner so you can focus on just your dancing. As Larinda mentioned previously, you can pretty much rely on your partner's professionalism and experience to ensure you are well taken care of on the floor. However, these can come at a cost. I have seen some dancers fail to fully realize their potential as dancers because their Professional took such good care of them and they simply never took it upon themselves to step up for themselves. Pro-Am partnerships can be expensive and the costs can add up to dizzying heights. Many of the serious Pro-Am competitors I know pay for their pro, their coaching (in addition to their pro!), and any other associated costs. However, it is possible to dance at a very high level this way! At high levels, it can be difficult to discern who the professional is! :shock:

Amateur partnerships have many benefits too! The first among them is cost. It can be quite economical to split costs between the two of you and allow you to take advantage of opportunities you may not otherwise take. As Jonathan mentioned previously, you are less limited in your practice time since you do not need to pay for your partner to practice with you. This can allow you to develop a real partnership and 'learn as a team' (thanks Larinda ! :) ) This can also allow both of you to flourish as dancers without relying on a professional to cover up for you. However, this can come at a cost. First, if you are just starting out, both of you are going to pretty much feel your way around to learn some basic skills (things like, practicing, scheduling, coaching, competitions, costumes, etc...). A good professional will have experience doing these things and can help immediately in these things. An amateur, may not. Also recognize in a serious, committed, partnership, you could be spending more time with this person than anyone else you know! If you are both equally committed, respect one another, have similar goals, and share the same passion for dance, this can be fantastic! congratulations. This can be quite a challenge if these conditions don't exist.

From what I have seen, this relationship between Pro-Am and Amateur partnerships can be a catch-22. Amateur partners are easier to find at lower levels and significantly harder to find at higher levels! Many ladies start off in pro-am partnerships and then stay because they enjoy it so much. Some leave when they find a suitable partner. Some stay because they find it even more difficult to find a partner. Either situation, can be quite beneficial if you are clear on what you want.

back to lurk mode....

[Vince A]

Good comments Taita . . .

[Porfirio Landeros]

Plus two Am's competing . . . they have to pay for someone to do choreography, coaching, and matching costumes, etc. I think it's twice as expensive.

That's interesting... I always felt the opposite, even though you're right depending on how you look at it. The way I look at it is it's cheaper to be Am/Am, because you pay the same for a lesson with a pro whether you bring your partner or not (so you're getting 2 people coached for the price of one ;-)). In the way of competition entry fees, they're usually cheaper, and sometimes waived. Also, you're open to the world of amateur-only comps, where you can compete at college-hosted comps (with events opened to the public) or USABDA events, that are generally low-cost compared to NDCA and ProAm events.

I've never done ProAm, but as an Am/Am, I can tell you it's ejoyable because you take the journey of learning to dance together, in much the same way Pro/Pro's workout... and aren't we aspiring to be as good as them ;-)

[pygmalion]

Folks, this is one place I feel I have little to contribute, but I really value everybody else's contributions. Please keep the conversation going. Thanks so much for all your valuable input. :D I'm thinking about it all.

Jenn

[Adwiz]

I've found the replies to Pygmalion's question quite interesting. My observations from attending more than half a dozen competitions over the past couple years have been a little different from most of those shared here.

What I've noticed is that pro-am dancers rarely have the kind of keen edge to their style or confidence that amateur competitors have. I'm not sure why, but my wife also noticed the same thing and we've talked about it at almost every comp. Invariably the am-am competitions have reflected a higher overall standard than the pro-am ones.

One reason may be that most pro-am competitions aren't group-based, so the competitors don't have quite the same kind of intense pressure to compete against others at the same time.

Another reason might be that in the solo comps, there are so many levels and variations that dancers will often receive awards even when they are very poor dancers. This keeps them for growing the way they would when their efforts are truly compared to others. One lady we know has about 10 instructors and dances in pretty much every event, yet her footwork hasn't improved for months. At the same time, she receives numerous second and third-place finishes only because there are only two or three dancers in that level. So she thinks she is much better than she is.

Amateurs know exactly how well they are doing because they are always compared to others and the competition is fierce. If you aren't improving you know it immediately, and if you are you see that satisfying progression as you move up slowly in your placings.

I do fee there is huge value in pro-ams, but I don't think anything quite compares to the polishing intensity you get from am-am comps.

Just my two cents.

[Vince A]

[quote=Vince A]Plus two Am's competing . . . they have to pay for someone to do choreography, coaching, and matching costumes, etc. I think it's twice as expensive.

That's interesting... I always felt the opposite, even though you're right depending on how you look at it. The way I look at it is it's cheaper to be Am/Am, because you pay the same for a lesson with a pro whether you bring your partner or not (so you're getting 2 people coached for the price of one ;-)).
So, if you have only one coach, and both of you need help, are you not really only getting half-a-lesson? It would take you twice as long to get through a routine . . . and you need several routines!

In the way of competition entry fees, they're usually cheaper, and sometimes waived. Also, you're open to the world of amateur-only comps, where you can compete at college-hosted comps (with events opened to the public) or USABDA events, that are generally low-cost compared to NDCA and ProAm events.
We have been putting routines together now for over a year, and are not ready to compete. We still have way more to go, plus several thousand dollars for matching costumes.

NOTE: Yes, sometimes the entry fees are somewhat less, and you don't have to pay the Pro for each dance that you compete in. So far, it costs us more for Am-Am, and we have not even danced.

We get discounts on our Pro fees because we do compete, and we do not have to match the Pros in the costume department.

I guess maybe, doing both has added to my dancing tremendously! Although, personally, I fell that Pro-Am has moved me more the furthest and at the fastest rate.

I've never done ProAm, but as an Am/Am, I can tell you it's ejoyable because you take the journey of learning to dance together, in much the same way Pro/Pro's workout... and aren't we aspiring to be as good as them ;-)
I would say . . . if you can afford it, do both. If money is an issue, do Am-Am, and begin with just a couple of dances. As you add dances and get better at dancing, you can move into the Pro-Am ranks, yet will not need 'as much' dance instruction/help from the Pro, which could save a few $$$ in the long run.

[Porfirio Landeros]

So, if you have only one coach, and both of you need help, are you not really only getting half-a-lesson? It would take you twice as long to get through a routine . . . and you need several routines!

Heehee, no, it's not 50/50... if a coach is building a routine, and they say, "Do an inside underarm turn from the backside of a reverse box..." we get into dance position, and we do it - they didn't need to say, "You do the lady's part and you do the guy's part." My partner and I have a common knowledge of dancing, and when we learn new stuff, there are times where she's briefly shown something alone, as am I, but it's no where near 50/50 - we are 90% trained as a single unit.

Also, having a coach that's outside of your dance position brings a tremendous value to how you look together. They're looking at you both like a judge, so they can tweak you as a single unit. Also, the coach can jump in and dance with us to show us how it should feel... you get the best of both worlds.

And I guess this is where I ended in my last post - training as Am/Am is closer to the way professionals couples train, because there is (generaly) more equity in the partnership, and you're relying on a third party (coach/teacher) to shape your dancing as a unit, thus making your team better.

ProAm imitates this when you have a coaching session with your teacher and another coach; in that case you are indeed paying double ($ for you pro partner and $ for the coach).

But for the most part in your day-to-day training as a ProAm, the pro-partner is the boss, and they're only working on 50% of the partnership - YOU ;-)

Are they really going to correct/coach themself in front of you?

I think most of the benifits of ProAm have been made clear so far by the other posts, so I just wanted to be sure that the value of Am/Am is adequately appreciated :D

[Vince A]

. . . day-to-day training as a ProAm, the pro-partner is the boss . . .

If I'm paying her . . . I'm the boss. If I do not like a particular move or the way it is done, I ask her if she will change. Notice I said . . . "I ask her."

Yes she may be the one who calls the choreography, etc., but if I pay, I'm the boss!

And I agree with you on the appreciation for the Am-Am . . . it's just that right now, up to this point, I've had a far greater learning curve with Pro-Am.

I'm quite certain that my dancing with a Pro will contribute to better dance with another Am.

[Larinda McRaven]

Are they really going to correct/coach themself in front of you?


I do...I have been know to say "oh my god, i am such a DORK, I can't believe I just did that." or "hey let me try that again I just felt something in myself I want to try to do that again." My students know I am not perfect, I tell them all the time how wonderful it is to receive our own coaching and how much we enjoy learning too.

I'm quite certain that my dancing with a Pro will contribute to better dance with another Am.

Yes I definately think that it can help you dance better and learn faster since you only have to be concerned with yourself, your teacher is more than capable of taking care of herself and getting through her part. It certainly frees you up to concentrate on you.

As for the weight difference between you and Carolyns teacher...I wouldn't really worry about it. Dancing with all body types is a very imporatant part of the learning process. It certainly will help both of you to be able to lead and follow anyone at anytime with any size or shape of body. It only becomes a hazard when your ultimate goal includes your partner and no one else, at least for the immediate future. I have several students that compete with me and another teacher. For two weeks before a competition with their other teacher I stop having lessons with them all together and won't touch them. I say that they need to only be training their body to match the other teacher, and my body and information and objectives do not meet their immediate goal.

[Vince A]

As for the weight difference between you and Carolyns teacher...I wouldn't really worry about it. Dancing with all body types is a very imporatant part of the learning process. It certainly will help both of you to be able to lead and follow anyone at anytime with any size or shape of body
Thanks Larinda . . . that really helps, especially coming from you!

My only concern, is that I am 3 to 4 inches taller and weight about 35 pounds more than her Pro. Since I am learning their "Advanced" routines, I didn't want to mess up her muscle memory. Because I am larger, she may have to adjust her steps around me in certain moves, or change the height of an arm position, etc.

They practice 4 days a week and we practice maybe two times. Her routine is more important than ours at this point.

Do you feel it is still worth pursuing, or should we have a routine choreographed just for us? Carolyn feels that since she and her Pro are teaching me, that they will also know it better. She also says that I am capable of executing the dances . . . albeit, I don't think so. So, I guess I need to work on my confidence???

[SDsalsaguy]

Vince, it sounds to me like you should stick with this plan. Sure you're built a little different than Robert, but overall you're not drastically different body types. Also, keep in mind that this is competitive dancing and not social, so there's more of a 50/50 split...Carolyn will know what to do, regardless of any differences. Also, and as Larinda mentioned for herself/students, maybe don't practice with Carolyn for a week or so leading up to an event where she'll only be dancing the routines with Robert. Given how much time they have and do spend working together that should give her enough time to readjust to only him, if that is even necessary.

Just out of curiosity, you have stressed before why you and she don’t compete together…so what’s changed/going on?

[Vince A]

". . . maybe don't practice with Carolyn for a week or so leading up to an event where she'll only be dancing the routines with Robert. Given how much time they have and do spend working together that should give her enough time to readjust to only him, if that is even necessary."
I guess that's a way we can do it, but if we're competing at the same event, as we could very easily do, then (selfishly) I don't get to practice for those important week or two weeks before the comps.

Just out of curiosity, you have stressed before why you and she don’t compete together…so what’s changed/going on?
I'm getting pressed about "not competing" anymore or taking too much time to get back into it. Pro-Am and Am-Am.

We've been "practicing" for a longtime . . . and not doing the fighting that's associated with couples that compete - because we don't set a date to actually compete. Maybe, now I'm chicken??? I don't know.

I just know we do dance well together . . . she is my wife and I never get angry around her . . . and I know when we do practice, I do get "upset." So, down deep inside, I know I can avoid the angry outbursts.

Just an excuse???

[SDsalsaguy]

". . . maybe don't practice with Carolyn for a week or so leading up to an event where she'll only be dancing the routines with Robert. Given how much time they have and do spend working together that should give her enough time to readjust to only him, if that is even necessary."
I guess that's a way we can do it, but if we're competing at the same event, as we could very easily do, then (selfishly) I don't get to practice.

No, no, No. I specified *only* when she's only dancing with Robert! If she's dancing with you too then, of course, you two should be practicing as well! She'll be fine!

[Kitty]

Plus two Am's competing . . . they have to pay for someone to do choreography, coaching, and matching costumes, etc. I think it's twice as expensive.

And in the case with Carolyn and I . . . I have to learn her Pro's part of her routine. She is the Advanced dancer and I am the Intermediate, not because she started before me or I didn't compete last year, but because she is a better dancer. Both of us compete with our own Pro, and if we do Am/Am next year . . . I have to dance at the level of her Pro. Learning to do this will take Pro-Am-type privates with him, just so Care doesn't have to dance down to my level.


First, when doing am/am, dancers have more opportunities to choreograph their own routine, they only need their teacher too look and comment on it. If you'll say that you can't make such a good routine as a pro, that is just because you've never tried. But if you don't try - you'll never learn! I've seen amazing routines choreographed by ams. Also, if you dance with another amateur - you are more in charge of your own dancing.

When getting help from your coach, it doesn't take twice the time to show the routine to both partners. (it actually takes less as amateurs usually participate in the creative process and come with a draft of what they want to do) The teacher when showing a new move or part of routine may show the guy's part, and say what the girl is doing - and it is fine.

Unless the partners are at very different levels, the private shared between the two is almost as beneficial for both, as if each of them was getting a lesson. And much more beneficial if you take into account that partners can practice with each other to learn everything that was said during the lesson, so that teacher doesn't have to repeat it next time and it saves lesson time.

Also with a good permanent partner you can' benefit from advanced group lessons (it is much harder to learn at advanced group lessons if you don't have a permanent partner.) You will actually need muuuch less privates that way.

The situation that you described is when the partners are at different levels. Either you will catch up to her eventually, or it is just not a good partnership. Most amateurs spend a while looking for a good partner - the one with who they can learn at the same pace and who matches their personality in dancing. The problems that you have just mean that you and your partner are not perfect for each other.

Even if you forget about the costs, I think your creativity and expressiveness benefit more from am/am partnership. (you should have seen the silly looks my bf and his partner were given each other when they were dancing their simple steps in newcomer:-), to say nothing about bronse and silver. In gold they made up a complex routine comprised of steps that matched their personalities the most - the coach only gave recommendations. And they won! )

I even don't think pro/am is as much a sport as am/am. I think pro/am is like a substitute for am/am sport. (Such a profitable substitute that coaches like it :-))

[pygmalion]

Thanks for the input, kitty. I've been strongly leaning toward the am/am route, myself, and you jst reinforced what I was thinking. Now all I have to do is break in a suitable partner. LOL.

[Vince A]

Thanks Kitty . . . I missed this yesterday - I was on/off the site quite often.

I read what you several several times . . . some of it does make a lot of sense to me.

I can and have done choreography . . . just recently choreographing a 2 1/2 minute NC2S that wason the Advanced level of dancing. We did a demo and received a standing ovation for the demo, So, you are correct, we can do our own choreography.

We do dance together very well, and we are always getting asked "why dont you two compete? You look great on the floor together."

I think the problem stems with the fact that I hate doing the technical stuff. I love being in front of people and love to show off. The technical stuff is just very boring. But I guess I could do the fun stuff in the social dancing, the Jack and Jills, etc., and still be on the floor showing off by demonstrating how well I can do the technical stuff.

It's been thirteen months since I've officially competed . . . I just keep finding excuses to not get back in that proverbial saddle again!

[delamusica]

All cost and lesson time and teacher attention aside - who here does partner dancing to be really doing it by yourself? I had a steady amateur partner for several years and we competed a lot locally - everyone was always commenting on how well we did TOGETHER. When we graduated from high school, he started teaching dance and I went to college nearby, and we continued to compete as a pro-am couple (nothing about our dancing together changed except for our category - same coach, same routines, same practice schedule, etc.). Now I walk off the floor, and all I hear is about how well I did, instead of us. Pro-am can advance you faster if you're dancing with your teacher (although it may not make you a better follow!), and sometimes it's nice to be able to focus on yourself, but IMHO it often really lacks that sense of partnership that is so important on the floor! [/i]

[wink]

While you can learn more rapidly with pro-am, it definitely has its downside. First is the amount of time you spend practicing on your own. While you can grow a lot this way, you can *also* find yourself beginning to compensate for a lack of a partner when you dance, leading you to do things incorrectly just to get yourself through a move. This is particularly the case for those figures that require a connection for the appropriate level of power.

The pro-am comp thing can be a challenge as well. A lot depends upon how truly interested your instructor is in doing pro-am comps with you. There's a difference between doing pro-am comps and being truly *interested* in doing them. I've seen instructors who look like they're sleep-walking through the moves when they're doing comps with their pro-am students. (Okay, we *get* that the figures are easy for you, but at least put your heart into the performance for the sake of your student.) The other deals with the amount of practice you can (or can't) expect prior to a comp. In my own experience, I had a very hard time getting my instructor to do even one full round with me prior to a comp. This was very upsetting to me, because I needed to do full rounds up-to-speed for at least several days prior to a comp - otherwise dancing in a comp without having had the chance to practice up-to-speed with a connection (which you don't get in solo practice) would throw me off. Despite my willingness to pay for it, and my direct request for this, it didn't happen. This was one of the several key things that led to my quitting pro-am dancing, despite the several hours per day of solo practice and the $30,000 of lessons that were invested in the process. (That, and the fact that he was pretty immovable when it came to hearing and responding to what *I* needed in terms of the lessons and the learning experience.) I personally found quitting to be heartbreaking, because I loved the dancing, and had put so much time and effort into it, but I saw no other rational choice. Ah, if only there were another studio in town... :( :( :(

For anyone considering going into pro-am dancing/pro-am comps, I would *strongly* suggest sitting down with your instructor and finding out from him what you can or cannot reasonably expect from him. Otherwise you may find your experience to be one of hitting your head against a brick wall - and paying a lot of money for it in the process.

[Sagitta]

Thanks for sharing your experience wink, and welcome to df. So you quit pro-am. What do you do now?

[Hank]

I competed in pro-am International Standard for several years, but quit for the following reasons:

1. Ams who dance with the top pros have an enormous advantage over ams who dance with the lessor pros, and who wins becomes more about the pro's ability than the am's ability. Pro-am is thus more an exhibition than a competition.

2. Awards like top teacher and top student are based much more on number of entries purchased than actual ability. At my first comp, after only 3 months of lessons, I won top bronze student simply because I danced a lot of entries, despite the fact that I was the worst dancer there.

3. Because many pros come with multiple students, the comps increase the number of categories, so that everyone can dance all the entries they want. This causes a proliferation of diluted categories, such as beginning gold, intermediate gold, advanced gold, closed gold, open gold, gold star, gold prime, etc., which leads to many uncontested entries. I danced at least half of all my entries uncontested.

4. The man generates the swing and the power of movement in Standard, so the couples with the pro male move much more than the couples with the am male. As a result, although I regularly placed above the other am males, I never placed above even one am female in mixed competition.

5. Mixing pro and am males on the same floor causes problems. Pro males are used to dancing on a crowded floor with lots of other pro males in cutthroat competition and intimidating other men into altering their routine or stopping altogether. Am males come from an environment of social dancing where being polite, protecting their partner, and not running into anyone are very important. When I first started competing, I did a lot of stopping, altering my routine, getting boxed into a corner with no graceful way to get out, and basically just trying to stay out of everyone's way. Then, my teacher told me, "Don't ever alter your routine for anyone. If someone gets in your way, run them over. Pro men are all slightly built, and you look like a football player. They'll learn to get out of your way." Why am I body checking other couples into the judge's table when I'm dancing an uncontested entry?

6. I thought that pro-am competitions would be a good place to look for an amateur partner, but that wasn't the case. Many people who dance pro-am do so because they prefer trading money for convenience and control, not because they want an amateur partner and haven't found one.

In sum, pro-am is barely a competition, but to the extent it is a competition, I'm competing not against other amateurs, but against professionals.

[cl5814]

5. Mixing pro and am males on the same floor causes problems. Pro males are used to dancing on a crowded floor with lots of other pro males in cutthroat competition and intimidating other men into altering their routine or stopping altogether. Am males come from an environment of social dancing where being polite, protecting their partner, and not running into anyone are very important. When I first started competing, I did a lot of stopping, altering my routine, getting boxed into a corner with no graceful way to get out, and basically just trying to stay out of everyone's way. Then, my teacher told me, "Don't ever alter your routine for anyone. If someone gets in your way, run them over. Pro men are all slightly built, and you look like a football player. They'll learn to get out of your way." Why am I body checking other couples into the judge's table when I'm dancing an uncontested entry?

In sum, pro-am is barely a competition, but to the extent it is a competition, I'm competing not against other amateurs, but against professionals.

Very interesting point, Hank. Never thought about it this way.

[Larinda McRaven]

Hank, while I disagree with most of what you wrote, I must thank you for sharing your experiences.

1. Ams who dance with the top pros have an enormous advantage over ams who dance with the lessor pros, and who wins becomes more about the pro's ability than the am's ability. Pro-am is thus more an exhibition than a competition.
Well a more advanced proficient pro will naturally have better information to share. Therefore their students will do better because they are learning better quality information. While the pros abiltiy does come into play some during the dancing... I would never take away from the student who is simply learning faster and better with a more experienced pro.


2. Awards like top teacher and top student are based much more on number of entries purchased than actual ability. At my first comp, after only 3 months of lessons, I won top bronze student simply because I danced a lot of entries, despite the fact that I was the worst dancer there.
They are not called participation awards for nothing. If that offends someone they are welcome to disregard them. And why not offer the pro who does 300+, or the student who does 50+, entries some recognition. It is hard work.


3. Because many pros come with multiple students, the comps increase the number of categories, so that everyone can dance all the entries they want. This causes a proliferation of diluted categories, such as beginning gold, intermediate gold, advanced gold, closed gold, open gold, gold star, gold prime, etc., which leads to many uncontested entries. I danced at least half of all my entries uncontested.
I have never seen a comp with 7 gold entries. Most have three levels of a proficiency catagory. Intermediate, Full, Open. And Open doesn't really even count, it is something else completely. If you are uncontested, it is simple to have your teacher move you to catagory that has competition. I even put a note in with my guys entires when I mail/fax them in. "Please move him to an appropriate division if uncontested" Every organizer once did pro-am too, and they certainly understand your desire to not be uncontested.


4. The man generates the swing and the power of movement in Standard, so the couples with the pro male move much more than the couples with the am male. As a result, although I regularly placed above the other am males, I never placed above even one am female in mixed competition.
My pro-am men can often place in the finals from a quarter. Yes they might be at a slight disadvantage because the male pros can more more or better yet more efficiently, but my men somehow make it through. It is an untrue and unfortunate stereotype that every pro-am male will place below pro-am women.


5. Mixing pro and am males on the same floor causes problems. Pro males are used to dancing on a crowded floor with lots of other pro males in cutthroat competition and intimidating other men into altering their routine or stopping altogether....Why am I body checking other couples into the judge's table when I'm dancing an uncontested entry?
A jerk on the competition floor is a jerk, regardless of their occupation. I have one guy that moves relatively small around the floor. Whenever we set up I can see the male pros around us setting up accordingly. You only need to dance by someone once to get a feel for how much they move (or don't). Your teacher was probably just trying to get you to stop shying away from moving. I seriously doubt she wanted to you to body check other couples. Any good dancer will asses the situation on the fly and be able to avoid a collision without losing their composure, which is what I am sure your teacher intended.


6. I thought that pro-am competitions would be a good place to look for an amateur partner, but that wasn't the case. Many people who dance pro-am do so because they prefer trading money for convenience and control, not because they want an amateur partner and haven't found one.
You make it sound negative that someone is paying for convenience...? You are in America afterall. And you are in a pro-am environment looking for an am partner? That is like going to the grocery store but looking to buy a car.


In sum, pro-am is barely a competition, but to the extent it is a competition, I'm competing not against other amateurs, but against professionals.
I would feel sorry for any pro-am girl that walks on the floor and thinks they are in competition with me. And I doubt any of the juges would seriously think that either.

And pro-am is a valid competition. Sometimes hotly contested, sometimes not. But we all choose our battles. And with well over 100 pro-am comps a year in the U.S. surely everyone can find 3 a year that suit their level of expectation.

[Larinda McRaven]

In addition I will add that this forum is based on and thrives because we have a beautiful mix of all kinds of dancers, social and competitive, amateur and professional, pro-ammers and ams.

And while we all enjoy sharing our experiences and thoughts.....
if one iota of pro-am bashing appears on this forum I will be very very very disappointed :!:

Kudos to everyone so far for keeping this conversation informative and non-judgemental.

[Porfirio Landeros]

Pro males are used to dancing on a crowded floor with lots of other pro males in cutthroat competition and intimidating other men into altering their routine or stopping altogether.
Hmmm... I just talked to a judge to ask them what they felt about a recent pro smooth round (that had a lot of physical contact). They were actually really turned off by one of the couples deliberately finishing a move to split another pro couple. The perpetrators were not called back to the final.
When dancing, I prefer to think of it as my job to command respect for my space, through body movement and stage presence. If anyone violates our space, we won't go through them (if we can help it), and it will be clear to the judges and audience who was really at fault or lacked the experience to respect the space. I haven't competed with pro's, but I've done practice rounds with them run like competitive events, and the mutual respect method seems to work the best, especially since you're going to be seeing these people over and over again through the years.

[Chris Stratton]

1. Ams who dance with the top pros have an enormous advantage over ams who dance with the lessor pros, and who wins becomes more about the pro's ability than the am's ability. Pro-am is thus more an exhibition than a competition.

On the other hand am/am competitors who study with the most effective teachers have a huge advantage too. It's not uncommon for half or more of the couples in a final to have the same teacher (and not because they are judging!)

[standardgirl]

Pro males are used to dancing on a crowded floor with lots of other pro males in cutthroat competition and intimidating other men into altering their routine or stopping altogether.
Hmmm... I just talked to a judge to ask them what they felt about a recent pro smooth round (that had a lot of physical contact). They were actually really turned off by one of the couples deliberately finishing a move to split another pro couple. The perpetrators were not called back to the final.
When dancing, I prefer to think of it as my job to command respect for my space, through body movement and stage presence. If anyone violates our space, we won't go through them (if we can help it), and it will be clear to the judges and audience who was really at fault or lacked the experience to respect the space. I haven't competed with pro's, but I've done practice rounds with them run like competitive events, and the mutual respect method seems to work the best, especially since you're going to be seeing these people over and over again through the years.

Out of topic, but I just watched the waltz and VW from CA Open. I love your routine! It looks great. :D

[robin]

On the other hand am/am competitors who study with the most effective teachers have a huge advantage too. It's not uncommon for half or more of the couples in a final to have the same teacher (and not because they are judging!)

This is not necessarily the same. It is completely immaterial how a couple has got better, be it due to better teachers, natural talent, more practice or whatever else, in Am/Am the better couple wins.

The idea in Pro/Am as I understand, is that only half of the partnership competes against each other, ie the Amateurs. The question is why dancers dancing with the better Pros win:
- is it because due to the Pro's good teaching and dancing the Am's own dancing has got better than their competitors' dancing
- or is it because due to the Pro's dancing ability, the Am's dancing *looks* better when they dance with this Pro.

In the former case the situation is the same and there's nothing wrong with that. In the latter case one might find an analogy to a horse-race where often the champion horse (and it's owner) is given more credit than the Jockey (sorry for the crude analogy!!!).

Of course there's nothing wrong with that either, but in this case it's not primarily the ability of the Amateur (or the Jockey) that determines who wins.

PS actually, I should ask, is it the intention at a Pro/Am event that the Amateur's dancing is judged (like in a UK medallist competition) or are the judges asked to judge the couples like they would in an Am/Am competition?

[Larinda McRaven]

The intent, in the freestyle events, is that the am only is being judged. In a championship and scholarship the couple is being judged.

[mamboqueen]

Honestly, I wondered how the judging went in pro/am when you had a long-established pro out there up against (albeit, they're not "against" each other) a young, new pro who didn't really have any name recognitition, and I have to be honest, I'd probably go with the more established one, as a dancer, which I suppose tells me that in my gut I feel there's some bias.

I would love to conduct an experiment and compete in two back-to-back groups of heats (i.e., do 2 levels of bronze) with two different pros and see what happens. It could be that the more established pro is just more experienced and can be more effective at getting the best out of me....who knows?

I have to imagine when there's a bucket-load of people out there on the floor, the judges have to spend more time focusing on the am than the pro, though.

RE: the who am/am vs. pro/am is really moot if you can't find a partner. And given the ratio of men to women, it's an impossibility to have everyone who wants to compete do am/am.

I'm very happy doing pro/am, although I have nothing to compare it to. I think I get very spoiled dancing with my instructor and wonder if it wouldn't be a little bit of a let-down to dance with an am at my level?? Anyway, it's expensive, for sure, but when the option is nothing at all....

[Kitty]

it is not that impossible to find an amateur partner and actually there are almost same number of men as women looking.

The problem is finding a partner who matches you goals, height, body type, level, dedication level, and wants to take same number of lessons, and for higher level add partner should be trained in same school of thought.
In proam you really only have to worry about height and maybe body type.

If you want to dance with someone - no problem. If you are picky, you are in trouble. Like if you are willing to dance with someone who is currently at a lower level, you'll probably find a partner. For me one level below my level means going back to the very very beginning, so I wouldn't really want to settle for that as that would mean starting over again. But I might have to.

[Laura]

it is not that impossible to find an amateur partner and actually there are almost same number of men as women looking.

Maybe where you are! It's a big country! :)

Heck, you can look at the partner search sites just to get an idea...on one site, there are 323 amateur men nation-wide looking for partners. Meanwhle, there are 472 women. I admit the discrepancy is smaller than I had imagined it would be -- on some sites it's double the number of women looking than men, but still.

You're right about all the variables that have to come into alignment before you can have the "right" partner, though. Sometimes just "any" partner is a good place to start if you're really dying to try it :) (And for god's sake people, when you find the right partner please treasure them. I'm so sick of hearing about people who actually have good partners fighting all the time.)

[mamboqueen]

I agree with Laura. New York might have a bigger base of male dancers. If you just do a search on a couple of the more popular dandce partner searches, it is pretty clear that there are more women looking. Also, Kitty, you're younger. I think as you get older, you will see that the pool gets more depleted. There are not a lot of guys within +/- 6/7 years of my age that compete in my level. Then, the pool of those to choose from have many other things going on in their lives, as do I, which complicate the whole partnership, such as practice time, expense one can devote, etc.

Anyway, I'm not complaining. I'd *love* to have an amateur partner, but right now it's just not practical for me and I'm happy to be learning at the pace I'm learning on my own.

[robin]

The intent, in the freestyle events, is that the am only is being judged. In a championship and scholarship the couple is being judged.

Are the Pros identified as such in some way? Or are they split into male/female heats?

I guess one might hope it is usually obvious who is the Pro and thus who is the Am to be judged, but am just wondering if there is some form of formal arrangement.

If the heats are mixed male/female, is this not a big disadvantage for the men, at least in lower levels in Ballroom/Smooth?

[Laura]

In a Pro/Am comp, the Pros often have a number below 100, and amateurs above. In other comps, Pros might have a number between 100-199, and amateurs will start above. The judges and organizers know this, even if the spectators don't realize it.

[Chris Stratton]

On the other hand am/am competitors who study with the most effective teachers have a huge advantage too. It's not uncommon for half or more of the couples in a final to have the same teacher (and not because they are judging!)

This is not necessarily the same. It is completely immaterial how a couple has got better, be it due to better teachers, natural talent, more practice or whatever else, in Am/Am the better couple wins.

You can argue that it's immaterial how they got better... but if you take two couples of equal physical fitness and determination, and one makes the final along with a lot of their studio mates while the other doesn't along with a lot of theirs - then to some extent, what may really be being judged is the dancer's wisdom in choosing who to study with.

Which is sort of the criticism of pro-am that was being made, though it's probably harder/more expensive to get a top pro-am pro for a popular event than to get training from a comparably leading coach. And the risk of having your pro judged on his reputation is probably higher than that of having your technique judged on your teacher's reputation.

[saludas]

I'm very happy doing pro/am, although I have nothing to compare it to. I think I get very spoiled dancing with my instructor and wonder if it wouldn't be a little bit of a let-down to dance with an am at my level?? Anyway, it's expensive, for sure, but when the option is nothing at all....

Don't be surprised if your potential am partner is thinking the same about you. It's quite a letdown after seeing someone dancing with someone higher level, and then finding out that the quality of dance is due mainly to the higher level dancer.

And also - your 'level' is quite different than you might think. Pro/am commonly exists 2 or more levels lower than comprable am/ams (silver pro/am is usually danced at bronze or lower level - it has to be, since the 1 or hours a week put in doesn't usually allow for much finesse...).

Remember, dancing with an am means you are responsible for HALF of the look.

[standardgirl]

I'm very happy doing pro/am, although I have nothing to compare it to. I think I get very spoiled dancing with my instructor and wonder if it wouldn't be a little bit of a let-down to dance with an am at my level?? Anyway, it's expensive, for sure, but when the option is nothing at all....

I feel the same way. I am very spoiled from dancing with my teacher. I don't feel right dancing with "normal" guys anymore. Sometimes, even when dancing with my am partner, I feel weird. At studio parties, or my college dance club, I can almost dance with no guy at my level or higher than my level. I only feel comfortable dancing with my teacher or guys that are like 3 levels better than me. It just seems like I don't have any space to dance when I dance with people close to my level, and I lost my freedom to move too. :?

But even after all that, I am still seeking a "real" am partner who is willing to work together and improve, and grow together.....

[standardgirl]

Remember, dancing with an am means you are responsible for HALF of the look.

Well...
Dancing with a pro at syllabus levels means you are responsible for ALL the look since the pro is not being judged. :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Laura]

Maybe I'm in a snitty mood but all this talk about "levels" just really annoys me. I can't even explain it. I've tried and I keep deleting paragraphs.

Believe me, I know how difficult it is to find partners of ANY kind, so I'm sympathetic to everyone's plight. It's just that, well, when you start going on about how know you'll never find anyone as good as your teacher or you really only like to dance with guys three levels above you or whatever, you start sounding a bit snotty. And I've been there and done that, so don't feel like I'm accusing you -- I've certainly not been any better or worse than any of you about this! It's just that, well, I see so much angst and so many broken hearts and so much downright suffering over dance partnerships and I just can't stand it sometimes.

Oh god, I am not expressing myself well. I apologize. Perhaps further conversation will help me to get out what I want to say.

Let's start with this:

How do you really know what your own level is?

How do you really know what someone else's level is?

What the hell is a "level", anyway?

And, most of all, when you're dancing with another person isn't it supposed to be about what you make together out of the dancing? It's not my level and his level, or my dancing and his dancing, but our level and our dancing. Or at least that's what I've come to think over the years.

[Chris Stratton]

Everyone wants a partner who can let them feel like they are dancing, rather than struggling to dance.

[Laura]

That is very succint, thank you. I don't feel what you said has anything to do with "levels" (thus supporting my point). I used to dance with a guy who went from never having a ballroom lesson in his life (but who had been doing Lindy) to us making Closed Syllabus (Bronze through Gold lumped together) finals 2 1/2 months later. If I had been stuck on his "level" at the beginning, I'd never have danced with him at all. And believe me, there was struggling -- for both of us. Plus he was too short for me. But you know what, I did it anyway. I wanted to dance, I wanted to learn, I wanted to see what we could do together.

I don't know, I'm just cranky tonight.

[DancingJools]

I think you got your point across quite nicely, Laura. And I think you're very right.
I can only speak about pro-am, since I did a very small amount of am-am.
IMHO, the name recognition of the pro you dance with has very little to do with your results. The quality of his/her teaching does. Usually, pros with current or past high competitive achievement have a better understanding of dance than those who didn't, and usually (not always, I know) can convey those principles to their students and insist on them. The results are a logical extension of this formula. But in the end, the student has to pull his/her own weight. I've been watching a lot of comps lately (pro-am), and the results are always consistent. Those who dance better, with their partners (teachers), place higher.

[Laura]

And the interesting thing I've found, Jools, is that it's not always the best dancer with whom one dances the best. My ex teacher is a better dancer than my amateur partner, but as far as two people dancing together goes, I dance much better with my amateur partner than I did with my teacher. And it's not a matter of extra time with my amateur partner -- I danced with my teacher for 7 1/2 years, and with my partner for only 5 months (so far).

[Joe]

Why am I body checking other couples into the judge's table when I'm dancing an uncontested entry?
Yeah, I think pro/am ballroom needs a salary cap, too. ;)

Edit: Regarding partner "levels" and searching, my coach says two things:

1) Everyone looking for a partner is looking for one who is a better dancer than himself or herself.
2) The longer one has been partnerless, the lower one's expectations become for a potential partner.

;)

[mamboqueen]

Well, I suppose my meaning on the word "level" is meant to mean bronze, silver, etc.., to answer your question, Laura. Can't speak for anyone else's definition is.

As for as the whole partner/level thing goes, the only thing I can surmise is that I will dance better with my pro teacher than I will with a bronze level partner because he has more knowledge on how to get me to dance a certain way that a bronze student just isn't going to have...not meaning to insult bronze students, but it's just a plain fact. What I base this on is my experience with group classes.

Saludas - I agree, it probably would be a letdown for higher level ams to dance or compete with me, and I understand. Nothing I can really do about that. I'm sure there are people who wouldn't want to parnter up with me because I'm too tall or too old, too. And I can't really hold anyone's reasons against them. People should be somewhat discerning when choosing a partner. What's the point in partnering up with someone you have more doubts about than not?

[mamboqueen]

Everyone wants a partner who can let them feel like they are dancing, rather than struggling to dance.

Absolutely. And I understand that everyone I dance with, or everyone who dances with me, isn't going to get this all the time, but it's definitely what we strive for.

Laura...you're not being cranky. When I re-read what I wrote, I can see how it would come off as snotty. I didn't mean to "dis" any bronze level dancers, but if I did, I apologize!

[robin]

IMHO, the name recognition of the pro you dance with has very little to do with your results. The quality of his/her teaching

I'm not sure if people think it's due to name-recognition that people dancing with a better Pro get better results, and of course it might be the quality of their teaching (and hence the fact that the Am is just a better dancer) but there is a third option:

I would have thought that particularly a female Am doing standard would look a lot better when dancing with a world champion than if she danced with a mediocre Pro, even if she hasn't had a single lesson with the world champion, just because he can *make* her look better. To some extent he can shape her, make her move, make her keep a steady topline, put her in the right places, keep her on balance, etc. etc.

Hence trying to judge a single dancer irrespective of the quality of dancing of his/her partner must be about as hard as trying to decide who is the best jockey in a race irrespective of the speed of the horses they're riding or who is the best driver in Forumula one, irrespective of which car they have available...

There would be an interesting way to find out, make people dance and then swap Pros and dance again, see if the results are the same...

[saludas]

IMHO, the name recognition of the pro you dance with has very little to do with your results. The quality of his/her teaching

I would have thought that particularly a female Am doing standard would look a lot better when dancing with a world champion than if she danced with a mediocre Pro, even if she hasn't had a single lesson with the world champion, just because he can *make* her look better. To some extent he can shape her, make her move, make her keep a steady topline, put her in the right places, keep her on balance, etc. etc.



Yes, but is this dancing? Every second that one partner is not focused on dancing (and instead is doing the partner's job, such as balance or such) is one second that he is not dancing. It is then not a true partnership (yes, balance problems happen, but they also happen to the leader as well - who helps him in the unequal situation?)

[cl5814]

And, most of all, when you're dancing with another person isn't it supposed to be about what you make together out of the dancing? It's not my level and his level, or my dancing and his dancing, but our level and our dancing. Or at least that's what I've come to think over the years.

I am starting a new partnership and so far i have tried to think about our partnership as our partnership and what we can accomplish. Sounds like this might be the right approach.

[Larinda McRaven]

I would have thought that particularly a female Am doing standard would look a lot better when dancing with a world champion than if she danced with a mediocre Pro, even if she hasn't had a single lesson with the world champion, just because he can *make* her look better. To some extent he can shape her, make her move, make her keep a steady topline, put her in the right places, keep her on balance, etc. etc.

Yes, but is this dancing? Every second that one partner is not focused on dancing (and instead is doing the partner's job, such as balance or such) is one second that he is not dancing. It is then not a true partnership (yes, balance problems happen, but they also happen to the leader as well - who helps him in the unequal situation?)

Sure this is dancing. Every time you go social dancing and do a swing with someone else of a different "level"... you are dancing. Even if the other person is brand-new and you can only do a basic, throwout, and reverse underarm turn. You are still dancing. Some days when we practice... I feel like a slug. I am sure I act like a slug too. Steve easily makes up for it (although with a fair amount of evil looks) and we continue to practice. But I would still say we are dancing.

I doubt there is any partnership that is 100% equal. Not even inside a World Championship level couple. I was talking to Katusha Demidova one day not too long ago. And she was telling me a story of a recent competition where she suddenly blanked out. She was swinging around and had no idea what she was doing or where to go. Jonathan just kept her moving and they never missed a beat. So for that rare moment he was doing everything but I doubt anyone would say they were not really dancing.

[Laura]

Well, I suppose my meaning on the word "level" is meant to mean bronze, silver, etc.., to answer your question, Laura.

Yes, but if you put two dancers who are working on the same syllabus level together, you'll still find cases where one will sniff that the other person isn't at their level and they want a better partner. Everyone wants a partner better than them. It's strikes me kind of like Lake Woebegone, where all the students are above average or however that goes.

[Laura]

I would have thought that particularly a female Am doing standard would look a lot better when dancing with a world champion than if she danced with a mediocre Pro, even if she hasn't had a single lesson with the world champion, just because he can *make* her look better. To some extent he can shape her, make her move, make her keep a steady topline, put her in the right places, keep her on balance, etc. etc.

You'd think. And someone with enough money hired Donnie Burns to dance Pro/Am Latin with her at the 2003 Embassy Ball and they came in fourth. So it really depends on what the two dancers produce together -- a big name and amazing skill on the part of the Pro will only take you so far.

There would be an interesting way to find out, make people dance and then swap Pros and dance again, see if the results are the same...

That would be cool! A Pro/Am Jack-n-Jill, basically :) I think we should have amateur couples do that, too. Some people would probably be quite suprised by the results.

[Chris Stratton]

Jonathan just kept her moving and they never missed a beat. So for that rare moment he was doing everything but I doubt anyone would say they were not really dancing.

I don't think this is quite the same. A dancer of that level has deeply set reflexes for moving in the right kinds ways, so even if confused will respond to a partner's lead with very nice actions. As long as she didn't panic Jonathan's workload might have increased some, but not the way it would have had to if he were dancing with a comparatively inexperienced student lacking fully developed reflexes. What I hear in the stereoptyical criticism of pro-am is an allegation that some entries consist of a pro hired to compensate for a lack of basic skills in the student - not just lead-intensive social dancing, but really dancing the partner's body for her.

[Kitty]

There would be an interesting way to find out, make people dance and then swap Pros and dance again, see if the results are the same...

That would be cool! A Pro/Am Jack-n-Jill, basically :) I think we should have amateur couples do that, too. Some people would probably be quite suprised by the results.

How would you deal with height differences?

I'm used to dancing with my height match partner (very short!)
Dancing with Chris feels weird. (well, it should :-) ). I do enough social dancing to be used to dancing with taller guys, but it is still competely different than what I'm mostly working on.

Besides, my partner (amazing dancer, about silver level) would not dance with a different partner. He doesn't understand social dancing and doesn't do it. therefore he has no experience switching partners.
And even though our dancing is all lead and follow, he'd probably struggle to dance with a partner who is different in size from me, or dances differently from me.

[Egoist]

Yes, but is this dancing? Every second that one partner is not focused on dancing (and instead is doing the partner's job, such as balance or such) is one second that he is not dancing. It is then not a true partnership (yes, balance problems happen, but they also happen to the leader as well - who helps him in the unequal situation?)

Are you arguing that doing this the couple cannot win or that the couple should not win? If it's the latter, then be prepared to lose to people who can't or won't "dance".

[Laura]

How would you deal with height differences?

That in itself is a test of the dancers' skills. I've danced with guys ranging from 5'4" (my height) to 6'4". My competition partners have ranged from 5'7" to 6'2". Somehow I managed, and I don't even claim to be a particularly great dancer.

I'm used to dancing with my height match partner (very short!)
Dancing with Chris feels weird. (well, it should :-) ). I do enough social dancing to be used to dancing with taller guys, but it is still competely different than what I'm mostly working on.

Besides, my partner (amazing dancer, about silver level) would not dance with a different partner. He doesn't understand social dancing and doesn't do it. therefore he has no experience switching partners.
And even though our dancing is all lead and follow, he'd probably struggle to dance with a partner who is different in size from me, or dances differently from me.

Well, don't enter the event then. I'm not saying that all events should be like this, just that it would be cool to have one like this.

[Laura]

Yes, but is this dancing? Every second that one partner is not focused on dancing (and instead is doing the partner's job, such as balance or such) is one second that he is not dancing. It is then not a true partnership (yes, balance problems happen, but they also happen to the leader as well - who helps him in the unequal situation?)

Are you arguing that doing this the couple cannot win or that the couple should not win? If it's the latter, then be prepared to lose to people who can't or won't "dance".

For sure. And some of these people are even amateur couples....

Look, a Pro/Am couple is a couple where one person gets paid to teach and dance with the other person. But in truth, the dynamics could apply to any couple where one partner is a much stronger and more technically sound dancer then the other. With everyone trying to dance with a better dancer than themselves, it's reasonable to think that such couples do exist.

This whole "true partnership" thing is another thing that makes me cranky. What exactly is it. Someone define it.

In my opinion, a true partnership is a partnership of equals who can really bring out the best dancing in each other. Just because two amateurs are dancing together it doesn't mean it's one of those kinds of partnerships. In my experience those partnerships are rare and to be treasured, which would mean that statistically speaking a number of the amateur couples you see on any given floor aren't "true partnerships" either.

[mamboqueen]

Are there really that many partnerships where one is THAT much better than the other? Frankly, I'd think the better person would get a little frustrated in that kind of a situation. It seems to me that the best partnerships are going to be pretty close in talent/skill. But, if these partnerships do exist, and say you have a person that would dance gold and the other would dance bronze or silver if doing pro-am, what level (I know you hate this word, but I can't think of a better one at the moment) would this couple dance at in a competition?

[mamboqueen]

I think a pro/am Jack & Jill sounds like a nifty idea. It would certainly be a test of the "lead/follow" abilities! I'm surprised no one has given this some consideration. It could be fun!

[Laura]

Are there really that many partnerships where one is THAT much better than the other? Frankly, I'd think the better person would get a little frustrated in that kind of a situation. It seems to me that the best partnerships are going to be pretty close in talent/skill.

You'd think. But if you start listening to ballroom gossip you hear all kinds of catty stories about how someone is soooo far below his/her partner's level and they just don't understand how they can keep dancing together or what they see in each other or whatever.

My last Standard partner (not the one I have now) had never had a ballroom lesson (years of Lindy, however), and I was doing Silver and during our partnership moved up to Gold in Pro/Am. All we ever danced was Bronze syllabus. You could probably count this as being a rather unequal partnership, but I didn't look at it that way. It hurts the partnership for one person to lord it out over the other about levels. I see it on the practice floor: and there's stomping of feet and yelling and tears. If it's a good partnership, the more experienced partner will be supportive of the other and give them the time and space to learn. I never got frustrated with this guy's dancing, because every week our dancing together got better and better. I think what I'm saying is that a LOT of this is about attitude, and I've seen a good amount of bad attitude in my day.

But, if these partnerships do exist, and say you have a person that would dance gold and the other would dance bronze or silver if doing pro-am, what level (I know you hate this word, but I can't think of a better one at the moment) would this couple dance at in a competition?

They can enter any level they feel prepared for. That's how it works in USA Dance anyway. Your Pro/Am levels have no bearing on your amateur levels. They pick a level, enter it, and see if they get completely clobbered or not. If not, then they're at the right level, or perhaps even too low.

[mamboqueen]

Good heavens! There's gossip in the am/am world, too??!! *LOL* I'm too old for this.... :wink:

So, it's kind of "baptism by fire" doing the am/am events. Okay, so silly question, are the "levels" the same as in pro/am...meaning, is there bronze, silver, etc.? And open/closed?

[Laura]

You don't get the splintering of levels like in Pro/Am. In general, you'll get

Bronze -- same syllabus as Pro/Am
Silver -- same syllabus as Pro/Am
Gold -- same syllabus as Pro/Am
Pre-Championship -- no syllabus restrictions
Championship -- no syllabus restrictions

There's two other levels, both not clearly understood. One is Novice, which lays along side the three syllabus levels. In general, if you are eligible to dance in a syllabus event, then you are eligible to dance in Novice. The difference between Novice and the syllabus event is that there are no syllabus resrictions in Novice. So, you could sort of think of it as Open Bronze/Open Silver/Open Gold all lumped together.

The other level is called World Class. It's above Championship, and to get into it you need to be at Championship level and enter a World Class qualifying event, and place at a certain level in that qualifying event.

Obviously the best thing to do is to ask your coach to advise you on what level to prepare for. That's part of a coach's job.

Oh, and the Amateur gossip can get even worse than the Pro/Am gossip.

[Kitty]

Are there really that many partnerships where one is THAT much better than the other? Frankly, I'd think the better person would get a little frustrated in that kind of a situation. It seems to me that the best partnerships are going to be pretty close in talent/skill. But, if these partnerships do exist, and say you have a person that would dance gold and the other would dance bronze or silver if doing pro-am, what level (I know you hate this word, but I can't think of a better one at the moment) would this couple dance at in a competition?

depends on whether girl or boy is behind.
if girl is behind - probably gold after few months of practice.

if te guy is behind they probably wouldn't compete for a while until he catches up.

[Kitty]

How would you deal with height differences?

That in itself is a test of the dancers' skills. I've danced with guys ranging from 5'4" (my height) to 6'4". My competition partners have ranged from 5'7" to 6'2". Somehow I managed, and I don't even claim to be a particularly great dancer.


I disagree. There is a balance issue there: Chris complained he is never sure if I'm on my feet or he is just carrying me around on his arms (and doesn't feel it as I'm very light weight).
Chris and I can't do certain things together, but there is no way I'll be too heavy and blocking him from doing something (if that makes any sense).
It works for social dancing, it would never work competitively.

But I can knock my partner over: he is only few inches taller than me. So there are very different issues to work on here. If I never danced with such tall guys before, Or such short guys, I'd need some practice before it would feel doable.


I'd definitely participate in such random partner comp, cause I'd feel comfortable doing that. But my partner wouldn't. Doesn't mean I'm a "better" dancer than him.


BTW, I don't believe anymore that "good" dancer has anything to do with the level.

ps Chris says he was joking about "carrying me around."

[Kitty]

Well, I suppose my meaning on the word "level" is meant to mean bronze, silver, etc.., to answer your question, Laura. Can't speak for anyone else's definition is.

One of the reasons why this definition doesn't work is because at MAC the couple that got 2nd in silver latin got 3rd in bronze latin, and couple that got 5th in bronze standard got 4th in silver and 6th in MoS (highest syllabus level).


I personally think that while I qualify for the diagnosis "looking for a better partner than self", it is only this way because most people who think they are "same level" or "higher level" than me (by labelling themselves "silver" and "gold") I would beat in a competition if I'm dancing with my current partner.

If I tryout with one of those "silver" dancers and they still think they are better because they are labelled "silver or "gold" - what can I do. I'm a "bronze" dancer looking for a "silver" partner and yet dissatisfied with the quality of most available "silver" dancers :shock:

[Laura]

There is a balance issue there: Chris is never sure if I'm on my feet or he is just carrying me around on his arms (and doesn't feel it as I'm very light weight).

As you develop your dancing, this may change. I believe that you are relatively new at this. There is so much to learning how to dance Standard, it just goes on and on and on pretty much for as long as you can stand to continue to study it. Try the same things again with Chris in, say, three years. I know that sounds like a long time, but I look at working on Standard as a super long-term project. I've given up being in a hurry about anything -- I just go and make the most of each practice session or lesson, and over time things change and improve.

I'd definitely participate in such random partner comp, cause I'd feel comfortable doing that. But my partner wouldn't. Doesn't mean I'm a "better" dancer than him.

I agree with your sentiment: it's not about being "better," it's just about what he likes to do. Like, I'll never do a Latin comp. It's just a choice. It doesn't mean that there's any kind of heirarchical relationship in my mind between Latin and Standard and 10-Dancers. It just is what it is.

BTW, I don't believe anymore that "good" dancer has anything to do with the level.

I feel less cranky now. I'm still trying to figure out what "level" really means to me. I mean, I used to know, but over time my ideas about dancing and competing change, and sometimes I realize that I don't truly understand an idea or concept and jettison it and start over to make something new that makes more sense. That's kind of where I am now with this.

[Egoist]

I think a pro/am Jack & Jill sounds like a nifty idea. It would certainly be a test of the "lead/follow" abilities! I'm surprised no one has given this some consideration. It could be fun!

Are you going to pay your pro for getting another am the win?

I don't think so!

(Of course I'm assuming a pro won't dance for giggles.)

[Laura]

Maybe they could structure the entry fees so that everyone pays the same and all the pros get an equal cut for dancing in the event. Everyone would also have to understand that for this one event, students don't pay per-dance fees to their teacher. Rather, it all comes out of a single entry fee pool. Which means the entry fee would be double (or more) the usual entry fee, but it would come out "in the wash" for that central part of the bell curve of what teachers usually charge.

[Egoist]

Maybe they could structure the entry fees so that everyone pays the same and all the pros get an equal cut for dancing in the event. Everyone would also have to understand that for this one event, students don't pay per-dance fees to their teacher. Rather, it all comes out of a single entry fee pool. Which means the entry fee would be double (or more) the usual entry fee, but it would come out "in the wash" for that central part of the bell curve of what teachers usually charge.

That would not be very appealing to a pro who charges more than the average (right of the curve) nor to an am who pays less than the average (left of the curve).

[Kitty]

There is a balance issue there: Chris is never sure if I'm on my feet or he is just carrying me around on his arms (and doesn't feel it as I'm very light weight).

As you develop your dancing, this may change. I believe that you are relatively new at this. There is so much to learning how to dance Standard, it just goes on and on and on pretty much for as long as you can stand to continue to study it. Try the same things again with Chris in, say, three years. I know that sounds like a long time, but I look at working on Standard as a super long-term project. I've given up being in a hurry about anything -- I just go and make the most of each practice session or lesson, and over time things change and improve.

Hehe. I actually don't think Chris ever did much stuff other than pre-bronze figures:-)
In 3 years lots of things will change, hopefully, including Chris himself:-)

Some things will never change. Like height. I believe there are so many limitations for me and Cris that it would never ever work competitively. I think we should take a picture of us dancing together and post it somewhere here. his hips are like around my chest level:-)

[cl5814]

Some things will never change. Like height. I believe there are so many limitations for me and Cris that it would never ever work competitively. I think we should take a picture of us dancing together and post it somewhere here. his hips are like around my chest level:-)

I have seen a couple where the height difference you are describing are more or less where they are. They compete Pro-Am in the Northeast USA area, either pre-champ or champ, last time i checked. I won't name them but look out for them, they are fairly successful in their endeavors. They compete american style, mainly rhythm but also smooth. So, it can be done, Kitty.

[Kitty]

Some things will never change. Like height. I believe there are so many limitations for me and Cris that it would never ever work competitively. I think we should take a picture of us dancing together and post it somewhere here. his hips are like around my chest level:-)

I have seen a couple where the height difference you are describing are more or less where they are. They compete Pro-Am in the Northeast USA area, either pre-champ or champ, last time i checked. I won't name them but look out for them, they are fairly successful in their endeavors. They compete american style, mainly rhythm but also smooth. So, it can be done, Kitty.

I don't doubt it is "possible" but it is not competitive.
I am too competitive to want a partner who is not competitive, and a competitive partner would want a better well-matched or better-matched partner if there is a choice.

I can see how that is a lesser issue in latin/rhytm/smooth. Mismatched partners look better in open position.

[Laura]

I have seen a couple where the height difference you are describing are more or less where they are. They compete Pro-Am in the Northeast USA area, either pre-champ or champ, last time i checked.

Just a terminology thing...as far as I've seen in 7+ years, there is no such thing as Pro/Am Pre-Champ. Pre-Championship is an amateur level, one level below Championship. In Pro/Am, the highest level is called "Open" (or at least, it has been in all the Pro/Am comps I've ever been to). The level below is usually one of the "Gold" variants, like Open Gold, or Gold Star, or Supreme Gold -- whatever the marketing term for the level is, it varies from comp to comp. Most of the comps I went to have Open Gold as the 2nd highest Pro/Am level, but like I said there are other variants.

[Laura]

I don't doubt it is "possible" but it is not competitive.
I am too competitive to want a partner who is not competitive, and a competitive partner would want a better well-matched or better-matched partner if there is a choice.

It certainly depends on level and style. I used to dance Smooth with that 6'2" guy and our placings were quite good considering the level of dancing we were producing together. But then, we specifically chose to do Smooth because of the height difference.

I used to dance Pro/Am Standard with someone who is 6"1' (I'm just barely 5'4"). When I finally found someone else the right height for me, I was amazed at the difference. And my back finally stopped hurting, too, practically overnight. Finding a good match is difficult but oh so rewarding if you do find that person (sort of like in life, too).

I do think that it's not a bad idea to take someone who is good for you now, even if it's not the ultimate right partnership for you. When it gets down to be a choice of, say, dancing Smooth with a really nice person who has a great approach and work ethich but is way too tall for you or not dancing at all, you really have to think about just how picky you want to be.

[standardgirl]

Everyone wants a partner who can let them feel like they are dancing, rather than struggling to dance.

Absolutely. And I understand that everyone I dance with, or everyone who dances with me, isn't going to get this all the time, but it's definitely what we strive for.

Laura...you're not being cranky. When I re-read what I wrote, I can see how it would come off as snotty. I didn't mean to "dis" any bronze level dancers, but if I did, I apologize!

I totally agree with you, Chris and Mamboqueen!
This is what I mean in my post. Sorry if the word "level" offends anyone. It is just very commonly referred to here at the collegiate team, and the studio. People here will often ask you what "level" you are at? They either mean, Bronz, Silver, PreChamp, etc., or they mean which sub-team you are in in the collegiate team.

[standardgirl]

Well, I suppose my meaning on the word "level" is meant to mean bronze, silver, etc.., to answer your question, Laura.

Yes, but if you put two dancers who are working on the same syllabus level together, you'll still find cases where one will sniff that the other person isn't at their level and they want a better partner. Everyone wants a partner better than them. It's strikes me kind of like Lake Woebegone, where all the students are above average or however that goes.

As I was just talking to someone today about looking for an am partner. Ideally, yes, I would like to get someone who dances about the same as my dancing. But reallisticly, I am willing to wait for someone who is really into dancing, and who is willing to work for it. To me, this is more important than how the guy is dancing at this moment.

[standardgirl]

I think a pro/am Jack & Jill sounds like a nifty idea. It would certainly be a test of the "lead/follow" abilities! I'm surprised no one has given this some consideration. It could be fun!

I would most definetly do it! :D :lol:
Sounds great.
But I do think male pro and female students have an advantage.

[swan]

I feel the same way. I am very spoiled from dancing with my teacher. I don't feel right dancing with "normal" guys anymore. .....

Interesting...Just last week, my partner & I had this very discussion. My comment was I felt that it's the similar level of dancing that allowed me to dance my maximum.

I've had the luxury to afford to train w/ good teachers as a single for 2-3 years. But I never felt the freedom to fully express myself on the floor. The Pros have always taken too good care of me :) They basically danced for me Vs. me doing the dancing. And even more interesting, the look & the flow were so much better w/ my amateur partner than w/ my pros.

I've also had amateur partner who's a lot higher level, and frankly, I was being carried around.

I think training as a single w/ a good pro has a lot of advantage, as I know what the right feel is. Competing pro/am can gain a lot of experience - I learn how to 'package' myself & present myself better on the floor. But Am/Am really is the game I enjoy the most & it really brings the best out in me when it comes to the actual dancing...

[pygmalion]

I think a pro/am Jack & Jill sounds like a nifty idea. It would certainly be a test of the "lead/follow" abilities! I'm surprised no one has given this some consideration. It could be fun!

I would most definetly do it! :D :lol:
Sounds great.
But I do think male pro and female students have an advantage.

No challenge. Just curious in what way you mean an advantage. An advantage over female pros with male students, for example? :?

[standardgirl]

Interesting...Just last week, my partner & I had this very discussion. My comment was I felt that it's the similar level of dancing that allowed me to dance my maximum.

I've had the luxury to afford to train w/ good teachers as a single for 2-3 years. But I never felt the freedom to fully express myself on the floor. The Pros have always taken too good care of me :) They basically danced for me Vs. me doing the dancing. And even more interesting, the look & the flow were so much better w/ my amateur partner than w/ my pros.

I've also had amateur partner who's a lot higher level, and frankly, I was being carried around.

I think training as a single w/ a good pro has a lot of advantage, as I know what the right feel is. Competing pro/am can gain a lot of experience - I learn how to 'package' myself & present myself better on the floor. But Am/Am really is the game I enjoy the most & it really brings the best out in me when it comes to the actual dancing...

Just curious, do you ever feel that you have more freedom to move when you dance with a pro than an am? cuz, often time, I feel like my movements are so limited when I dance with "normal" guys.

[standardgirl]

I think a pro/am Jack & Jill sounds like a nifty idea. It would certainly be a test of the "lead/follow" abilities! I'm surprised no one has given this some consideration. It could be fun!

I would most definetly do it! :D :lol:
Sounds great.
But I do think male pro and female students have an advantage.

No challenge. Just curious in what way you mean an advantage. An advantage over female pros with male students, for example? :?

Yes, that's what I mean.
I think that male pro/female student has an advantage over female pro/male student. Just from personal experiences, male pro/female student often time dances better than female pro/male student in the same level. Probably because it's easier for the male pro to do more work and ultimately "shape" the lady, and they normally have better floorcraft as well. This is fairly hard for the female pro to do. If she wants to do the same thing, she would probably have to back lead? Also, I think because most of the syllabus level pro/am are seperated by sex, and it's more competitive for the female students, and this might have make them work harder? so they dance better? Just some reasons that I can think of.

[Laura]

Just curious, do you ever feel that you have more freedom to move when you dance with a pro than an am? cuz, often time, I feel like my movements are so limited when I dance with "normal" guys.

I think you just haven't been at this long enough to have found the best possible amateur partner for yourself. I used to dance better with my teacher than the various guys I'd done amateur event with, until I met the partner I have now. When I dance with him I feel so relaxed and free. Even though he's not as good a dancer as my teacher is, the two of us dance better together and enjoy it more and get more out of it than either of us did when we were dancing with pros in the past. That's why I say it's not someone's "level" that is important, but what the two of you are able to put together TOGETHER.

[standardgirl]

Just curious, do you ever feel that you have more freedom to move when you dance with a pro than an am? cuz, often time, I feel like my movements are so limited when I dance with "normal" guys.

I think you just haven't been at this long enough to have found the best possible amateur partner for yourself. I used to dance better with my teacher than the various guys I'd done amateur event with, until I met the partner I have now. When I dance with him I feel so relaxed and free. Even though he's not as good a dancer as my teacher is, the two of us dance better together and enjoy it more and get more out of it than either of us did when we were dancing with pros in the past. That's why I say it's not someone's "level" that is important, but what the two of you are able to put together TOGETHER.

Ok...it's kind of hard to picture this right now though, since it has never happened to me yet.
I will let you know when that happens....maybe years from now? or months, if I am lucky enough?

[Kitty]

It is not going to happen if you'll just sit and wait. You need to want it.

Things don't usually feel as great in the beginning (unless the partner is 3 levels higher than you in the beginning, but then it is more like the student-teacher thing). But as you practice with your partner, it is getting there. It is not just a height match and level match. It is the personality match. It is how you practice, how you work with each other, it is cooperation.

Between my partner and I it is not just his dancing and mine, it is OUR dancing. What he leads and how he leads it is what we worked on in practice. we are doign it OUR way.

I have input on it, he has input on it, we developed it together. It is our thing, our emotion.

I can imagine that with a teacher, you have to do it his way as he is always the teacher, he is always right. while with a partner it is your thing!

[swan]

Just curious, do you ever feel that you have more freedom to move when you dance with a pro than an am? cuz, often time, I feel like my movements are so limited when I dance with "normal" guys.

I'll describe the process & experience. Kitty is right. At first when I tried out w/ my current partner, I was like, he didn't swing like my teacher. I was blocked doing reverse waves. BUT - he didn't pull me, and he was light & soft. And I was looking at the mirror of some of the shapes we're creating, I was like Holy Cow, it was better than me & my pros!

So I started working w/ him & showing him some of the stuff my pros would do. He quickly emulated it. We went at it by ourselves for a long time & did well in competition w/o coaching until we hit a wall - then we finally got some coaching & everything blossomed from there on.

I wouldn't say I'd move any less w/ my amateur partner than w/ my pros. The feelings are different. Overall, I felt so much more freedom to 'express' myself on the floor...

So...it's not the 'level' that really mattered. My level was higher at first. But I felt that the potential partner could very quickly catch on. Indeed, he was so fast that in 2-3 months timeframe, we're equal & in some regards he was better.

You just have to look hard & also trust your instincts when you find the 'right' one...

[standardgirl]

I am glad to hear about all the positive things about having the right am partner from Kitty and swan.

My current partner is not as into dancing as I am. He is not interested in any private instructions, or anything for now. We do go to the collegiate team lessons every week. But most of the time, we are not able to practice on a regular basis. Often time, we just practice the week before the competition, and fortunately, we have always been lucky so far, and we have been placing well. So he thinks we are "fine" although I really want to practice and move up.....

I mean, when we work together to creat a "routine" I agree this is something I would never do with my pro, simply because there is no need. He leads and I know what he wants 99% of the time. We are all set. Working with my am partner before comp to creat a routine that both of us like does feel great. I get to actually input my feeling. I learn a lot from doing this, too, since I was kind of "force" to go through the standard technique book to make sure we have the right alignment, and to figure out what figures come before, and go after what. (since my partner doesn't like to read that book) I have to say that I had a great night.

But, often time, things don't work out. Sometimes, he will say stuff like "well, when I did this [move] with my previous partner, it works.....blah blah blah...." But then for me, it is like I am doing the same thing, and it works out great when I do it with my teacher! Then we go into this fighting mood.....Then he was complaining about the way I dance a certain move in latin. He said that he is sure that he is right, but I think I am right too. So we asked someone who is in the advanced team from school. It turns out that this person agrees with my partner. I talked to my latin teacher about it a few days after, and then he told me I am doing it the right way, whatever my partner is doing is not right......I guess part of this has to do with the fact that we are trained with different people. But shouldn't the right way always be the right way??? :? Even though we do go to the team lessons together, he has been on the team a year longer, so that's where he learns most of the information vs me learning most of the information from my private lessons.

Anothe problem we have is the "dancing together" issue. We were told that we don't "dance together." Partly, I think it's because I am too strong sometimes, partly is due to the lack of trust perhaps. But I think it's better for me to be on time and do what I am supposed to do instead of waiting for his lead and become off time? I don't know. I have experienced the "harmony" of two people in dancing several times with my pro. In order to get this, I have to stop thinking and with some other elements that I haven't yet determined, it happens like magic. I am however not able to "stop thinking" with my am partner. I have tried, and moajority of the time, this leads to me doing something completly different from what he wants. (yes, this is why we do routines in standard, and latin)

Anywaz, after all this discussion, to be honest, I REALLY want to dance with an am, and I do want to have/find the right partner!
Kitty, I am most definetly not sitting there waiting.....when I didn't have a partner about half a year ago, I was searching for someone so badly, that almost everyone knows that I am looking! I am still looking right now, but things like this is just hard, isn't it? Pro/Am will allow me to improve faster at the present moment, and I think this is a great way to get exposure to potential partner. Hopefully, I will find one in the near future.

[Kitty]

IAnothe problem we have is the "dancing together" issue. We were told that we don't "dance together." Partly, I think it's because I am too strong sometimes, partly is due to the lack of trust perhaps. But I think it's better for me to be on time and do what I am supposed to do instead of waiting for his lead and become off time? I don't know. I have experienced the "harmony" of two people in dancing several times with my pro. In order to get this, I have to stop thinking and with some other elements that I haven't yet determined, it happens like magic. I am however not able to "stop thinking" with my am partner. I have tried, and moajority of the time, this leads to me doing something completly different from what he wants. (yes, this is why we do routines in standard, and latin)

No no and no!
stay with him, not on time. Been there, done that. Learned important lesson from Victor Kanevsky: stay with him, even if not on time.

It is his resposibility to stay on time. You can't make him follow you into the right timing. so staying "on time" leads to lack of trust in the partnership, but doesn't usually lead to fixing the timing.
All he sees is that it is your fault for not following. Don't give him a chance to blame you! be with him and he'll know the only reason you two are off time is because of him. He'll know he has to fix it when you are doing your part and staying with him.

Basically, imagine you are at a comp and he is off time. If you stay with him you are a "good girl" in the eyes of the judges and the audience. He is the "bad boy", and everything is his fault. This leads to a fix in the partnership. He is a man, he has to feel responsible, he has to feel he has a say. He shouldn't have you point out it is his fault before he realizes it himself or has someone else point it out or sees it on a video.
If you try to backlead him into the correct timing, it is likely he won't get it (it is hard in those situations).
If you stop, or pull and push him or anything else like that, the couple will look bad for a moment. and everyone will know you are a bad girl, thats way more noticeable then that he is off beat. You are not following! (for Kanevsky "backleading" is a swear word). Furthermore you don't let him wear pants in the partnership and assume responsibility for his job. Bad parthnership ethics!

As you said you are doing great in comps anyway. One comp is nothing, it is educational experience. You can afford loosing one if it leads to your partner realizing things and starting to feel like a man.

I guess I said it many times, but... again
let him do his job and do yours (which is to follow) as perfectly as you can.

it doesn't make much sense in in short term, but if you really want a partnership, that is what you have to do. Right now you are intimidating him.


have been in exact same situation. In the end partnership didn't work out. Mostly becuase I intimidated him in the beginning and he didn't feel like a man anymore, he didn't feel in charge of anything and that was not good. This taught me a lot of things... my next partnership has been amazing in terms of communication... what is interesting, my ex-partners new partnership is much better too...

Anothe problem we have is the "dancing together" issue. We were told that we don't "dance together." Partly, I think it's because I am too strong sometimes, partly is due to the lack of trust perhaps.

there is no such thing as too strong. Just not following. Whatever it is that he is doing you are not used to, you prefer another way, your pros way. Hey, that doesn't sound like a healthy partnership!
Fixing the lack of trust is a long term project. You have to trust him and follow him first in order for him to trust you and assume responsibility. You can choose to be righteous, stay on beat and so on... or you can keep and develop the partnership, an have good partnership ethics. your choice.

[standardgirl]

Thanks for sharing Kitty. Maybe I should try that next time, so that it's all his fault, and not mine when we don't look good. LOL :twisted:

Well, in reality, it's just very hard for me. I have been playing the piano for 15 years now, and I used to be a figure skater. If I listen to the music, the beats are SO CLEAR, that I don't understand how can someone not be on time.......and this is why I backlead often time. In addition, my body feels so weird when we dance offtime.

You are very right though, the whole backleading, not dancing together thing does lead to untrust in the partnership. I have a feeling that this is what we will be experiencing soon. But this good news is, we are probably not competing until end of April, so I can try to learn to follow, and stop backleading from now till then.

Oh yeah....I am the "BAD GIRL." But I think you are right, I need to learn to be the good girl! :D

The funny thing: my teacher says that I am too passive when I dance (like a dog following around, according to him), while my am partner complains about me backleading.... :lol:

[Kitty]

The funny thing: my teacher says that I am too passive when I dance (like a dog following around, according to him), while my am partner complains about me backleading.... :lol:

that is why people prefer dancing with an am as I understand. Because they want to have a say and not be a "dog." :lol: :lol: :lol:

[standardgirl]

The funny thing: my teacher says that I am too passive when I dance (like a dog following around, according to him), while my am partner complains about me backleading.... :lol:

that is why people prefer dancing with an am as I understand. Because they want to have a say and not be a "dog." :lol: :lol: :lol:

:lol: :lol: :lol:

this is what my pro and I are currently working on......making me "lead" more in a positive way (his words)

[wink]

Thanks for sharing your experience wink, and welcome to df. So you quit pro-am. What do you do now?

Well, I just quit last month (February '05). It's killing me and I really want to go back, but the situation just wasn't working out and no efforts on my part to make it shift ever had any effect. I still love the dancing - I did (do?) international latin - but in my city this is the only studio that does serious international latin competitive training. I'd have to drive for about 4 hours to find an alternative studio.

So, right now, I'm trying to figure out my next steps. I'm thinking about everything from trying to find an amateur partner (which is yet another tricky thing in this area), traveling to other cities to at least do coaching sessions (I'd like to do some sessions with Eddie Ares at some point in the near future if I can work things out with my work schedule), or even move to another city that has a larger dance community and could provide me with some broader options than I currently have.

In the meantime, I'm just working out at the "Y" with all the cross-training activities that I did when I was dancing, so that I can maintain my strength and endurance. I imagine that, in a few weeks, once I've recovered from the shock of not studying with my instructor anymore (after close to 5 years), I'll find some practice space and gingerly start practicing again so that once I do figure out what I'm going to do my dancing will be in good shape.

I'm going through withdrawal, though, I must say. I really miss the dancing. I don't miss the frustration of that particular experience, but I do miss the dancing.
:(

[swan]

No no and no!
stay with him, not on time. Been there, done that. Learned important lesson from Victor Kanevsky: stay with him, even if not on time.


Agreed, chiwenl - you need to follow. However...you can control portion of the timing w/o being a backleader. You can control your leg & body timing & encourage your partner's timing to be more on time. Ladies are just as important in getting everything on time. We can delay or speed up the timing easily - W/O backleading. Closing our feet too slowly or passing our feet/transferring weight too slowly/quickly all matter.

Also...even if you find the 'right' partner, it still does not mean that you'll have a peaceful partnership. There will still be fighting going on at times. After all, most people get together having been trained by different people as well as having other partners.

But hopefully for however long it lasts or worth, try to create the dance together. It'll be an enjoyable process hopefully. This, I firmly believe, will not come from Pro/Am experience or just dance/train with a pro. In that situation, you'll be train technically & learn a lot. You'll also probably learn a lot about how to package yourself & present yourself on the floor (how to walk onto the floor, bow, twirl, etc. which probably your amateur partner won't pick on as much). But you won't be truly dancing, expressing yourself and/or experimenting/innovating, unless you're w/ an amateur partner...

[standardgirl]

In that situation, you'll be train technically & learn a lot. You'll also probably learn a lot about how to package yourself & present yourself on the floor (how to walk onto the floor, bow, twirl, etc. which probably your amateur partner won't pick on as much).

Exactly, ever since I told my teacher that I want to compete pro/am with him, he started to care A LOT about how I walk on the floor, and how I end a dance when he spins me out, and how I bow.... YES, you are right, he is very picky about that, which I don't understand. Because from my experience, the judges have already turned in their scurtineering sheets when we end the dance, then...why should we care about it so much? My pro also seems to care about my dress A LOT! I thought it should be all about my dancing, not my dress? as I am not entering a modeling contest.....hum....

[Chris Stratton]

Agreed, chiwenl - you need to follow. However...you can control portion of the timing w/o being a backleader. You can control your leg & body timing & encourage your partner's timing to be more on time.

If you do that, the guy will be fighting his interpretation of the music against yours. If you want us to be on time, you have to give us the flexibility to adjust things, without trying to do it for us. You can't put us on time... but you can shure put us off of it!

To illustrate a specific example, say the guy is a bit behind the beat in waltz but his partner is encouraging him ahead. Now he doesn't simply feel behind the music, he feels pulled in two directions - both to speed up to match the music, but also to slow down to reign in the runaway partner - even if you are closer to the music, it still feels like you are rushing the action of his steps.

BTW, sometimes we are "off time" on purpose - targetting not the present beat, but an alignment of a coming action with the next downbeat or resolution of the phrase.

[swan]

Agreed, chiwenl - you need to follow. However...you can control portion of the timing w/o being a backleader. You can control your leg & body timing & encourage your partner's timing to be more on time.

If you do that, the guy will be fighting his interpretation of the music against yours. If you want us to be on time, you have to give us the flexibility to adjust things, without trying to do it for us. You can't put us on time... but you can shure put us off of it!

BTW, sometimes we are "off time" on purpose - targetting not the present beat, but the next downbeat or resolution of the phrase.

I actually disagreed...But I guess it all depends on how in synch are you w/ your partner, in terms of brainwaves... :) The guys, obviously, control the interpretation of the music & we can extend that. Yes, it's ok to go off time a bit & catch up. All depend on one's level. In chiwenl's case, I'm assuming the level is not Open/Championship level, and timing is a bit more on the 'straight' end. And if her partner's timing is often off, then she can help - but again, I didn't say backlead. It's got a lot to do w/ encouragement, but it's still ultimately up to the lead.

[Kitty]

Agreed, chiwenl - you need to follow. However...you can control portion of the timing w/o being a backleader. You can control your leg & body timing & encourage your partner's timing to be more on time.

Um, no. That's exactly what Kitty's learned she should never do.


never say never.
In practice when the partnership and the trust are established, this is possible. Even at a comp maybe, if partner feels comfortable with that.

but in most cases what the girl needs to do is let the guy fix his own timing, let him dance, instead of pushing him around into the right beat. He has to find the beat himself.

[swan]

Exactly, ever since I told my teacher that I want to compete pro/am with him, he started to care A LOT about how I walk on the floor, and how I end a dance when he spins me out, and how I bow.... YES, you are right, he is very picky about that, which I don't understand. Because from my experience, the judges have already turned in their scurtineering sheets when we end the dance, then...why should we care about it so much? My pro also seems to care about my dress A LOT! I thought it should be all about my dancing, not my dress? as I am not entering a modeling contest.....hum....

Well, I've done pro/am before, so I can relate. I thank my pro for preparing me for the Championship level. The way you walk onto the floor, the way you dress, and all that all factor into the overall judging system.

If you present yourself 'professionally', judges will automatically spot you & probably pay (hopefully) a bit more attention on you. You need to be able to attract the right attention, as there're so many couples on the floor, and you need to differentiate yourself & hope the judge can see more of your dancing to make a proper marking.

I remembered seeing a couple at Blackpool couple of years ago. Beautiful dancers. BUT - the lady walked onto the floor very 'unpoised'. This already knocked down the impression. Some coaches were commenting, boy, this girl didn't even know how to walk ,how could she dance? I was being picked on a lot by the same thing, because I have natural in-toe walking habit & had to pay extra attention when I walk onto the competition floor. Also I've got 'fat' ankles (I'm a skinny person, but somehow don't have a nice looking ankle), so whenever possible, I've got to have longer fit gown to cover them - my pro's wife taught me that.

The gowns (or tailsuit for men) are very important. It's got to flow & fit right. Sometimes I'd see a top dancer, and the dress was like a shag. I was like, boy, it didn't do her dancing any justice. Now, that's because she's already well known. What if it's only dancers like us, who're not well known? People already get put off by our costumes, and probably wouldn't give us a second look & our hard work would go into waste.

I guess it's the "Dress for Success" theory :)

[Kitty]

I actually disagreed...But I guess it all depends on how in synch are you w/ your partner, in terms of brainwaves... :) The guys, obviously, control the interpretation of the music & we can extend that. Yes, it's ok to go off time a bit & catch up. All depend on one's level. In chiwenl's case, I'm assuming the level is not Open/Championship level, and timing is a bit more on the 'straight' end. And if her partner's timing is often off, then she can help - but again, I didn't say backlead. It's got a lot to do w/ encouragement, but it's still ultimately up to the lead.

he''ll feel he doesn't have the freedom to move, he'll feel you are in his way, he'll just get upset.

only can do that in practice and only if your partner is comfortable with it and understands exactly what you are working on.

He shouldn't feel like you are training him like a "dog", he shouldn't feel that this one thing he is working on - timing - you don't let him fix himself. Why are you doing his job in addition to your job? he is not just a body to practice with, he is his own person with his own ideas - let him do what he wants, don't be 100% controlling.

And it is called backleading. You are backleading him into the right timing. don't have to be leading figures in order to be called backleading...

[Chris Stratton]

That is the usually advice. But I find that, when spectating at comps that one thing likely to make me want to absolutely ignore a couple for the remainder of the event is seeing them come out with all the pomp of champ dancers, and proceede to make classic bronze mistakes in the first few measures of actual dancing (especially if it is a champ event!). So while getting the act right is important, there are people in the audience who won't fall for it (and might even take offense) unless it is followed up in the quality of the dancing. Good presentation is important, but so is respecting the compeition by making an appropraite effort to prepare for it in areas of substance.

[Kitty]

Leading is hard. In order to lead something, you don't just have to do your steps, you have to do them with confidence... And it is the confidence that you are taking away from him...
He has to know that whatever he does you'll move with him. if he freezes at any point you'll freeze with him, if he does a non-syllabus something to escape a collision, you'll follow. He has to feel confident about that.

At higher levels he already has that confidence so backleading doesn't have such bad consequences... But bronze silver gold and especially the newcomer guys all need to feel in charge in order to learn to lead and learn to assume the responsibility for the couple's movement and timing. You don't want him to be following ("backfollowing") you forever, you want him to grow up into a "real man," no?

[swan]

That is the usually advice. But I find that, when spectating at comps that one thing likely to make me want to absolutely ignore a couple for the remainder of the event is seeing them come out with all the pomp of champ dancers, and proceede to make classic bronze mistakes in the first few measures of actual dancing (especially if it is a champ event!). So while getting the act right is important, there are people in the audience who won't fall for it (and might even take offense) unless it is followed up in the quality of the dancing. Good presentation is important, but so is respecting the compeition by making an appropraite effort to prepare for it in areas of substance.

Obviously, you have to dance like a champ to get good placement. Just good presentation won't do it. That's just common sense. But if you don't even present yourself well to begin with, especially if you are competing in foreign lands & no one really knows you, you're better off presenting yourself in the most professional way, and followed by your real stuff.

I speak from experience, as these days, we often have to tread 'unchartered' waters & dance our way through rounds to get into finals when NO ONE knows us...Not judges, not audience, not anyone... We just popped up from nowhere & have to find our way to get into final, that's more than just the dancing. And, we're not a 'tall' attractive couple :) So every bit helps...

You can't be coming out looking timid, w/ a novice looking gown or messy hair, no make up and walking sloppily on the floor, and expect the judge to mark you - esp. in early rounds.

For chiwenl - this is not a modeling contest, but looking great does give yourself a sense of confidence & who doesn't want to look gorgeous? :)

My partner went as far as borrowing my mascara few days ago, and I was like, man, I thought I was vane... :)

[Laura]

I thought it should be all about my dancing, not my dress? as I am not entering a modeling contest.....hum....

I've always said that dancesport is a lot more like dog shows than most people would care to admit. How you look, and you walk on and off the floor, and how you act and stand between dances is very very very important. If you ever get the chance, get the Dance Vision tape called "The Judge's View" and notice how they go on and ON AND ON about grooming. Oh yeah, and then they mention the dancing. You have to face it: dancesport is partially a modelling/beauty contest. I'm not saying this is good or bad, just the way it is, and that you have to be aware of this to play the game properly.

[Laura]

However...you can control portion of the timing w/o being a backleader. You can control your leg & body timing & encourage your partner's timing to be more on time.

Um, no. That's exactly what Kitty's learned she should never do.


Interesting. I had a lesson last week where my coach told me that we were going off time in waltz and one of the things I needed to do was to control my leg and body timing as I closed my feet. The idea is that me looking after my portion of the movement would enable us both to be on time together. I think that's what swan was going for -- that the follower has to be responsble for herself to some degree and that enables rather than hinders the dancers being on time. You've got to take into account that swan also dances at a very high level, so some of the things she talks about should be taken more subtly rather than at face value. She's not in a situation where her partner is simply incapable of connecting the beats he hears to the movements he wants to dance. No, if the guy is completely off time, you can't drag him or push him into being on time. But you can and should control yourself so that you aren't doing anything wrong that would make it easier for him to go off time if he's on, that's for sure. I was closing my feet to fast and rising too fast, and so we couldn't really carry our rise through the three beats possibly and we'd fall off time at the end of three in the waltz. By controling my leg and body timing, we were able to stay on time with ease.

[Chris Stratton]

Interesting. I had a lesson last week where my coach told me that we were going off time in waltz and one of the things I needed to do was to control my leg and body timing as I closed my feet. The idea is that me looking after my portion of the movement would enable us both to be on time together. I think that's what swan was going for -- that the follower has to be responsble for herself to some degree and that enables rather than hinders the dancers being on time. You've got to take into account that swan also dances at a very high level, so some of the things she talks about should be taken more subtly rather than at face value. She's not in a situation where her partner is simply incapable of connecting the beats he hears to the movements he wants to dance. No, if the guy is completely off time, you can't drag him or push him into being on time. But you can and should control yourself so that you aren't doing anything wrong that would make it easier for him to go off time if he's on, that's for sure. I was closing my feet to fast and rising too fast, and so we couldn't really carry our rise through the three beats possibly and we'd fall off time at the end of three in the waltz. By controling my leg and body timing, we were able to stay on time with ease.

Actually, if you look at the original post I was responding to, she was talking not simply about the lady being sure to do timing that won't pull the man off, but actually about trying to do timing that would encourage him back on. It's the difference between "first do no harm" and trying to actually "fix" things.

Incidentally, my guess (and of course only a guess without seeing) is that the common fault is not actually closing too fast, but rather transferring weight onto step two before the swing can develop. If the swing between one and two is right, the closing should follow pretty naturally.

[Laura]

If you're guessing about my case you're wrong, because my coach even said our swing was fine through one and two, and I screwed things up for us at the point where I went to close my feet.

If talking about music is like dancing about architecture, then what is talking about dancing like?

[cl5814]

If talking about music is like dancing about architecture, then what is talking about dancing like?

mmm, like this...

[Chris Stratton]

If you're guessing about my case you're wrong, because my coach even said our swing was fine through one and two, and I screwed things up for us at the point where I went to close my feet.

I'm going to go further out on a limb and guess that your coach practices a different style of swing than mine.... which is perhaps the safest place to leave it.

[swan]

If you're guessing about my case you're wrong, because my coach even said our swing was fine through one and two, and I screwed things up for us at the point where I went to close my feet.

I'm going to go further out on a limb and guess that your coach practices a different style of swing than mine.... which is perhaps the safest place to leave it.

I can attest to this statement. I had my partner danced w/ Laura when she visited with us. Her swing was just fine thru 1 & 2 ...It's exactly what her coach was pointing out that it's where she went to close her feet, things might not go quite right.

All 3 of us (my partner, me, and Laura) were trained by different people. I'm pretty sure Laura's definition or 'style' of swing is 'proper'...and I'd just say it's 'main stream' traditional English style.

[DANCEJAN]

Well, this is a swtich.... I think I can comment on this thread.....

I dance amatuar with my husband, and have done so for at least 10 years.... We have two coaches that we work with weekly, and because they understand our desires, they coach us to dance with each other. Sure, if we seperated and danced Pro-AM, we would be miles ahead of where we are now, but I cannot tell you the feeling of accomplishment when you are in a competition and it is just the two of you on the floor..... Whatever advancements that you have made are because you learned partnership dancing skills together, you have learned how to communicate with each other in a way as to not to offend your partner..We cant just look for another partner, we are the partnership, even after the lesson is over!!!

It is different dancing amatuar level. Often there is not a lot of competition as in Pro-AM.... Often, you compete against yourself. What I mean is that your goal is to dance better than the last competition... You know when you exit the floor if you have improved.... I cant explain it , but you absolutely know.... Scores become less important, while reviewing the tapes with our coach tell it all!!

Often I think that dancing amatuar is a whole different expereince than dancing Pro AM..... Whole differnt set of circumstances, interaction and goals. Larinda has this right..... Dancing is made up of all different kind of people....

For me,I would not ever consider giving up my amatuar expereince for Pro AM.... The advances I could make would not measure up to what I would loose.

[mamboqueen]

You are lucky, DJ. You are describing what sounds like a heavenly experience. Someday, I hope to have a partner, and then I can make the comparison. But, I bet partnering with your spouse or S/O is even more magical.

*sigh* jealousy......

[Laura]

I would do Pro/Am again under the right circumstances. I'm a "never say never" kind of girl. But I think the right circumstances are pretty picky and extreme at this point in my life, and right now it's not worth the time or the effort for me to try to organize something according to the right circumstances.

[scullystwin42]

so this thread is pretty dormant, but I'm moving to pro/am after dancing at the bronze level am/am for about a year and a half... (partner is having a mid-life crisis at 24). I'm planning a hiatus from dancing to have a baby next year, and I don't want to ditch a new partner like my old partner did to me. so, hence, pro/am. and...frustration

I thought I'd prefer to dance with someone who is better than me, so that i can focus on my dancing and improve it. However, i find myself getting continually frustrated - instead of really thinking how i am looking, i'm focusing on the comparison between me and the pro. I DON'T want to be one of those pro/am couples where the am looks SO much less talented, and so it's not as fun to watch (at least to me, when i watch comps.) I want to be fun to watch.

people tell me i just need more confidence, which is irritating, because i have confidence, but not as much in the actual dancing part. that, i definitely get insecure, as i don't know that much about dancing yet. Confidence in the competing/performance, i have no problem. Used to that. Still not used to dancing.

and i think he (the pro) thinks i am a better dancer than i am. some of the moves we are doing are gold, and i continually struggle with them, and have had him modify them so i can do them better. i hate being less than what someone thinks. On top of that, i get technique lessons from another teacher, and i think she doesn't feel i'm progressing well. again, i hate that. argh!

ok, this is sort of rambling, but i am stuck without any close ballroom dancer friends, and this was the only place i could think to come for advice and/or slaps in the face to tell me i'm just being an insecure ninny.

so am i just being insecure, should i not care about how i look in comparison? or.. what? anybody else have this issue?

(and i'll shut up now).

[DancingJools]

My dear twin, you have stumbled upon pro-am's dirty little secret.
The general impression (by non-proams) is that the student hangs on for the ride, and the teacher does most of the work to make the couple look good, and that the whole practice is generally a lot easier than am-am dancing.
What almost all am-ams don't know, and most pro-ams won't admit, is that the student is constantly struggling for self-confidence, over and above what is required in the usual business of dancing in public in weird outfits and weirder makeup, because you believe you are dancing next to a person who is FAR superior to you, and that you won't measure up no matter how hard you try (cause if you did, you wouldn't need him to be your teacher, now, would ya?) And it doesn't matter if your teacher is the latest blackpool prodigy, or the 6-week wonder from the neighborhood AM.

But seriously, try to make your challenge NOT how well you compare to your teacher, but how well you compare to your past performance (last lesson, last practice session, last comp). I know it's easier said than done, but I don't know any other way.
And enjoy it while it lasts. It really can be fun.

[fascination]

I really empathize with you...I am not dancing at nearly as advanced a level as you but I did exceedingly well at my first comp and my instructor is always saying "when we are dancing at Gold level" and I have already switched levels after having only danced since january...and I often find myself weighing my progress in comparison to how well he dances as if I were REALLY his partner...I know that in sense I am and sometimes I feel like we both wish I was..but I find that the only way for me to stay sane is to remember how all of the other things in my life that were worth having took a long time....I also try to remember that it is a luxery to have this problem...to be this healthy...to have enough money to do it...to dance in the arms or someone who is so good so many hours a week....that I love it so much..... etc.....

[scullystwin42]

My dear twin, you have stumbled upon pro-am's dirty little secret.


So, i'm not the only one? weirdly enough, that makes me feel better. :oops:

You're right, I should enjoy it more, not get so caught up. And, like fascination said, i should appreciate the fact that i can actually afford to do this!

i have this latent competitiveness that nails me all the time. I'm much harder on myself (so my pro keeps telling me) than anyone else...

Thanks for the responses, it helped. Hard to explain the situation to a non-dancer. i may have to apologize to my teachers for being so neurotic :p

[fascination]

wouldn't it be funny if we had the same instructor? truly I think this is so common...I just had to hold a fellow student's hand over this last night

[saludas]

I really empathize with you...I am not dancing at nearly as advanced a level as you but I did exceedingly well at my first comp and my instructor is always saying "when we are dancing at Gold level" and I have already switched levels after having only danced since january...

THIS is pro-am's 'dirty little secret' - that the student is being told that they are dancing at a much higher level than they really do.

And they belive them!! And keep on the 1 hour a week schedule and actually think they are progressing faster than ams who correctly spend 8-10 hours a week on lessons and practice....

[fascination]

I may be niave but I doubt that my instructor is that mercenary...I take as much as 5 hours a week in privates alone...and practice copiously and cross train and pay for outside coaching...and go to no less than 2 group lessons a week...etc, etc...I may be delusional but I don't think he is blowing smoke up my hindquarters....if he is I am happy to be taken advantage of.... 8)

[saludas]

I may be niave but I doubt that my instructor is that mercenary...I take as much as 5 hours a week in privates alone...and practice copiously and cross train and pay for outside coaching...and go to no less than 2 group lessons a week...etc, etc...I may be delusional but I don't think he is blowing smoke up my hindquarters....if he is I am happy to be taken advantage of.... 8)

If you can spend that much per week on lessons and that little on practice, imagine how good you'd be if you spent only 1/5 that dollar amount on lessons and 2x that amount of TIME on practice.

The prevailing wisdom is that you need 4 hours of practice for every hour of coaching - and no, dancing with your instructor is NOT practice time...

[fascination]

did you misunderstand? I practice ALL THE TIME

[mamboqueen]

fascination -- I'd avoid the bait; we've gone down this path a million times. People who do pro/ams are never going to register as having any talent or legitimacy, etc. in the eyes of some people. And the generalizations (like practicing minimally, etc.) are a dime a dozen....as if there aren't any amateurs who get stroked by their teachers....

[saludas]

did you misunderstand? I practice ALL THE TIME

I think I understand you practice with yourself.

However, this is a partner situation. You need to practice with a PARTNER. Otherwise, stay with the group classes and just work thru patterns.

You need to practice with someone who reacts to your movement, so you can have feeback physically. A teacher is paid to make things work - practice is the art of finding out why things DON'T work.

[saludas]

fascination -- I'd avoid the bait; we've gone down this path a million times. People who do pro/ams are never going to register as having any talent or legitimacy, etc. in the eyes of some people. And the generalizations (like practicing minimally, etc.) are a dime a dozen....as if there aren't any amateurs who get stroked by their teachers....

Sorry to open wounds, but I was sincerely trying to discuss this.

Guess ignorance is bliss. However, the reader should be cautioned that dissent and controversy is much healthier than simply consensus.

I'll bow out now...

[mamboqueen]

Well, if you could just avoid generalizations, that would be helpful. It's insulting to some of us who practice a LOT when you minimize the effort we put into it.

I don't think the reader is looking for concensus, but perhaps some helpful advice rather than telling them basically that what they're doing is worthless and meaningless. If someone's teacher tells them they're good and they're not, what skin is it off of anyone's back? If someone practices one measly hour a week, what skin is it off of anyone's back?

Live and let live....

[saludas]

Well, if you could just avoid generalizations, that would be helpful. It's insulting to some of us who practice a LOT when you minimize the effort we put into it.

I don't think the reader is looking for concensus, but perhaps some helpful advice rather than telling them basically that what they're doing is worthless and meaningless. If someone's teacher tells them they're good and they're not, what skin is it off of anyone's back? If someone practices one measly hour a week, what skin is it off of anyone's back?

Live and let live....

Well, I don't see anywhere in my posts anything that denigrates what they are dong as worthless or meaningless, but I really think that being told that practicing with a partner is going to offer more rewards is a POSITIVE comment.

I was VERY specific about my recomendations for practice time, what to practice etc. No generalizations - 4:1 ratio, to be specific. You might want to reread my posts. I also think that efficiency is more important than amount of effort, anyway - amount of effort varies as much due to quality of work as it does quantity, so it's not really a good measure.

Skin off the back? Then, why is this person on this forum, if commentary is thought of as adversarial or negative?

There ARE endless posts where people claim a wonderful situation, but come here for validation or commentary. They have a right to candidness and honesty.

And, perhaps the 'endless posts' might all have some validity -

I now go back into lurk mode, having been properly chastised and put into my place. I just sincerely hope that in the future dissenting views and dialog is supported and not considered 'worthless and meaningless'....

[fascination]

for the record ...I practice no less than 3 30 minute sessions a day by myself...I also practic with my husband...I also get asked to practice occasionally by other gentlemen at the studio and my instructor is proud not threatend by that....proud that picky guys are picking a new student of his to practice with....my instructor is not threatened that I will get wise and throw him overboard....I understand how this stuff works but I think it is a sad day when student and teacher have to be suspicious of one another's motivations to the extent that I am percieving here because I think that rust and affection really shows in our dancing....I am sorry that this has not been some peopl's experience....I have had some instructors do the hard sell on me...that is not my impression of my current instructor....and in life in general not just in dancing, I think it is a good job when trying nobly to advise someone, to ask the questions that you need the answers to in order to make the sort of judgements that you eventually make....it's more time effective that way and people don't get offended...I appreciate yuor concern though...and choose to take your intent as one of protectiveness toward a newcomer...and thank you mambo queen for your astute observations as well

[fascination]

let me bit a bit more specific...best to ask whether or not I practice alone and/or with an unpaid partner...before inferring it...look, I appreciate the caution....there is room for the glass half empty and for the glass half full...I can decide which is which....and I value both your perspectives immensely

[Medira]

If I come across as extremely short and snappy, I apologize. I'm just overtired and very sore today, so a personality made of sunshine isn't easy to come by at the moment...

THIS is pro-am's 'dirty little secret' - that the student is being told that they are dancing at a much higher level than they really do.

And they belive them!! And keep on the 1 hour a week schedule and actually think they are progressing faster than ams who correctly spend 8-10 hours a week on lessons and practice...

First of all...OUCH! The tone that you conveyed in this post makes it sound like anybody who dances pro/am shouldn't even bother because it's worthless. Did that really need to be so snide?

Second...why automatically assume that fascination is on a "1 hour a week schedule"? How do you know that she doesn't work very hard to improve her dancing to the best of her ability? I find this point of view extremely insulting given my current dance situation. I take 2-3 privates, 7-12 groups (thank goodness unlimited groups are included with the cost of a private), 1 or 2 social dances, 1-3 club nights (2-6 hours each) and 6+ hours of solo practice time in an aerobics studio every week. I do that because my goal is to become the best damned dancer I can. That is my goal. However, following your logic, because my privates are pro/am and I spend a lot of time working solo, apparently I'll never be as good a dancer as someone who has also been dancing for six months but in an am/am partnership? I find that extremely narrow-minded.


did you misunderstand? I practice ALL THE TIME

I think I understand you practice with yourself.

However, this is a partner situation. You need to practice with a PARTNER. Otherwise, stay with the group classes and just work thru patterns.

I agree with the bolded part of this statement, but only in part. I've found that being able to do figures on my own, without support from a partner, has helped me a lot. It ensures that I know how the move should feel, as well as where my weight needs to be to successfully complete the step. That way, when I'm dancing with a partner, whether he's taller, shorter, more advanced, brand new to dancing, a hard lead, a soft lead, on time or off-beat, I can adjust accordingly based on what I know works for just me. Every lead is different, but if I have a good base from which to work when I'm dancing with someone new, it makes the adjustment much easier.

I find that group classes, no matter what level they are, to be very valuable. However, I feel that telling someone that they should just stick to group classes is very narrow-minded and limiting to the learning experience. There is such a wide range of opportunity here that to restrict yourself like that would be a shame.

You need to practice with someone who reacts to your movement, so you can have feeback physically. A teacher is paid to make things work - practice is the art of finding out why things DON'T work.

If a teacher's only job is to "make things work", then why bother working with a teacher at all, even when you're dancing am/am? Back when I used to teach (solo dance [ballet, tap, jazz, etc.], swimming, sychronized swimming, diving, among other things) it was a relatively common goal for the instructors to make sure that our students improved and were proud of their successes. Just "making things work" completely flies in the face of that line of thinking and I honestly believe that most people would realize it when they aren't making any sort of improvement. It may take some longer than others, but eventually it becomes quite noticeable. A good teacher works to help his/her student improve and feel confident and proud of their successes. There are good teachers like that out there...

Don't be so quick to condemn a type of instruction/competition that you obviously aren't a part of. Keep an open mind about it and maybe next time, give us pro/ams the benefit of the doubt? We do actually have some worth, you know...

[scullystwin42]

yeek. wow. that kinda went crazy there.

fascination and Medira, i'm jealous that you get that much time to practice. I practice by myself as well, but usually about 30 min to an hour per night. I *do* miss being able to practice with someone, but my husband has decided to be my drill instructor and make sure i dance at home. i think the worst part is that i need to cardio on my own now - instead of doing rounds with a partner every day.

I don't think that my teachers are telling me that i'm better than i am - i do think, however, that some of the moves in the routines they have (we have routines for open that are altered per student) are definitely above my experience. My pro partner, i think, forgets that i need some things altered in order to perform them well. Not "ok", but "well". and while everyone says, hell, you're paying for it, tell him no! - that is not the relationship i want. I would prefer the pro to enjoy dancing with me.

although he kept grinning very wide while we did our show dance practice, and i though he was laughing at me *cringe*. He proceeded to inform me that he grins wide when he is having a lot of fun. so i hope that's a sign that he enjoys dancing with me.

ok, i've rambled enough. actual question here - do the pros that have a lot of students ever really enjoy dancing with their students, even if the students are less talented? what makes them enjoy it? Any pros wanna weigh in?

[rebeme]

actual question here - do the pros that have a lot of students ever really enjoy dancing with their students, even if the students are less talented? what makes them enjoy it? Any pros wanna weigh in?

My pro coach enjoys dancing with me, but then I am his top student and he is a partnerless pro…

[Medira]

fascination and Medira, i'm jealous that you get that much time to practice. I practice by myself as well, but usually about 30 min to an hour per night. I *do* miss being able to practice with someone, but my husband has decided to be my drill instructor and make sure i dance at home. i think the worst part is that i need to cardio on my own now - instead of doing rounds with a partner every day.
Well, I put in long days, so a lot of my practice comes at the expense of sleep. Club nights are Wednesday, Friday and Saturday, group classes are Monday - Friday. I usually go to the aerobics studio at about 11:00 at night during the weekdays that I'm not at the club and I'm there for at least two hours. I put in a lot of long hours on Saturday and Sunday...though that isn't all strictly dance practice. I do conditioning and weight training then. On average, I get 3-4 hours of sleep a night during the week and sleep in on weekends.

I don't think that my teachers are telling me that i'm better than i am - i do think, however, that some of the moves in the routines they have (we have routines for open that are altered per student) are definitely above my experience. My pro partner, i think, forgets that i need some things altered in order to perform them well. Not "ok", but "well". and while everyone says, hell, you're paying for it, tell him no! - that is not the relationship i want. I would prefer the pro to enjoy dancing with me.
Or, it could be that he has confidence in your ability to learn and master the more difficult move. ;) It may take a little bit longer than it took you to learn the routine, but I highly doubt it would be there if he thought you couldn't handle it.

ok, i've rambled enough. actual question here - do the pros that have a lot of students ever really enjoy dancing with their students, even if the students are less talented? what makes them enjoy it? Any pros wanna weigh in?Good question...

Pros?

[scullystwin42]

Holy cow, i could never do without that much sleep. i wake up at 6:30am, and i'm usually in bed by 9:30pm. which is why i love my tivo.


Or, it could be that he has confidence in your ability to learn and master the more difficult move. ;) It may take a little bit longer than it took you to learn the routine, but I highly doubt it would be there if he thought you couldn't handle it.


:oops: maybe... i really am not usually this insecure. But dancing, at a more technical level, is very unlike what i've done before (gymnastics). i get all ooky. and then i feel like a doof because i need assurances that i'm not as bad as i think i am.

it's a vicious cycle. But i'll cut my pro partner a little more slack :)

[alemana]

this thread has so much truth in it. i am now bumming very hard about my "fabulous" pro-am situation. i need more practice, but unless i win the lotto, i can never have it with him.

[scullystwin42]

this thread has so much truth in it. i am now bumming very hard about my "fabulous" pro-am situation. i need more practice, but unless i win the lotto, i can never have it with him.

Ack! please don't be bummed because of anything i said! wasn't my intention!! i was trying to get out of a bum mood!

*runs away screaming*
*then gets wet because it's pouring in Chicago*

[lynn]

whoa, just finished reading 10 pages of responses..... for me personally, i'm not in the competitive league so the situation probably doesn't apply to me, but i can see the points of both sides. My own preference would be to have an AM partner, simply because I need more practice. I'm not a fast learner and if I ever "look" good on the dance floor, that's b/c my teacher is doing 100% of the work.

stwin, i think you have made a good decision given your circumstance - ditching a partner after a year of partnership is difficult for both parties. I'm sure you'll have a wonderful pro/am experience!

[Kitty]

If you can spend that much per week on lessons and that little on practice, imagine how good you'd be if you spent only 1/5 that dollar amount on lessons and 2x that amount of TIME on practice.

The prevailing wisdom is that you need 4 hours of practice for every hour of coaching - and no, dancing with your instructor is NOT practice time...

yes dancing with her instructor is not the same as practice with an amateur partner. But it is the closest substitute she has. What do you suggest she should do? she is married and has money to do pro/am. In such situation time and convinience may be more important than money that could be saved on lessons with a partner. everyone's siuation is different...

the wisdom about practice to coaching ratio (where you just assume dancing with an instructor should not count) is for amateur couples. Successful pro/am students could probably share their wisdom for most effective pro/am training. And I'm sure the effectiveness depends a lot on the teacher's and student's approach.

there is really no big deal in going from bronze to gold in half a year. Especially with this kind of intensive training.

[scullystwin42]

stwin, i think you have made a good decision given your circumstance - ditching a partner after a year of partnership is difficult for both parties. I'm sure you'll have a wonderful pro/am experience!

Thanks! It was nice to find out that i wasn't the only person who got a little insecure. Glad i have DF :)

[Kitty]

Well, if you could just avoid generalizations, that would be helpful. It's insulting to some of us who practice a LOT when you minimize the effort we put into it.

I don't think the reader is looking for concensus, but perhaps some helpful advice rather than telling them basically that what they're doing is worthless and meaningless. If someone's teacher tells them they're good and they're not, what skin is it off of anyone's back? If someone practices one measly hour a week, what skin is it off of anyone's back?

Live and let live....

Well, I don't see anywhere in my posts anything that denigrates what they are dong as worthless or meaningless, but I really think that being told that practicing with a partner is going to offer more rewards is a POSITIVE comment.

I was VERY specific about my recomendations for practice time, what to practice etc. No generalizations - 4:1 ratio, to be specific. You might want to reread my posts. I also think that efficiency is more important than amount of effort, anyway - amount of effort varies as much due to quality of work as it does quantity, so it's not really a good measure.

I actually took your post the same way mamboqueen did.

you did give advice to practice with a partner, but you didn't tell where to find a suitable partner. so your advice is not as useful as you probably think.

[alemana]

*continues to bum very hard*

[Genesius Redux]

This is an interesting thread that hits a chord since I've made a decision recently to focus on pro/am rather than continuing to try to find an am partner. Here are the feelings leading up to that decision--and this I think is a reality for many male am dancers.

1. Those of you who are lucky enough to have an am partner need to count your blessings. The hardest thing is finding someone who really wants to practice, who has a similar level of commitment and focus to you, and who is compatible physically and personally. They just aren't out there. At least I know my teacher and pro partner will dance with me because, well, I pay her.

2. Some teachers do in fact pick up the slack for their students. I know this because I'm lucky enough to have someone who does not--she makes me lead everything. And I have danced with many, many other fabulous professional dancers who will backlead and bail my sorry butt out if I need it and then tell me with a bright smile that "Oh no, I wasn't backleading anything, you did all the work." One teacher who shall not be named here, in fact, bailed me out on a horrendously fast Viennese Waltz not a few months ago at a social dance. Afterwards, a lot of folks were telling me how good I looked, and I just laughed and said, "Yeah, that's cuz ------ was totally backleading the whole thing!"

3. Even when you find students who seem compatible in lots of ways, it's hard to forge an am-am relationship for a couple of reasons. One, in a number of cases I've found women are being carefully helped by their male teachers rather than having learned to follow. So they will often be confused or offput by the fact that I'm not doing the same thing. This can get even dicier when it comes to actual mistakes, of which I make plenty. A lot of women I've met just really want to go out on the floor and be made to feel graceful, rather than slog through the problems and issues that come with working with someone of your own level. So if someone has a trust fund or a high-paying enough job to afford three or four hours of private lessons a week, I can't compete with that.

4. The am-am partnerships I've begun in the past have this unsettling way of turning romantic. Then, when the romance ends, the partnership dissolves--and though I don't wish to sound mercenary, frankly, I'm out all the time and effort I've put into the dancing.

For these reasons, I find the pro-am relationship much more congenial to my life and goals. I'm sure that there are plenty of people who question my talent because of this, and especially because my teacher is one of the top rhythm dancers in the country there are always gonna be the snippy little comments about how she's doing all the work. But I really couldn't care less about such comments--they're misguided and nothing more than the sort of thing people like to say to make themselves feel as though they know more than other people do.

As for those who actually have am-am partnerships right now, I think you should do something today for your am partner, because you really are lucky to have that partner. So let your partner know.

Cheers,

GR

[macha]

*takes up bumming with alemana.*

I must be crazy.

"Silly macha must soon learn,
that her place is in a show ring, not the ballroom"

I want french fries and a marzipan bar, but then I couldn't fit into my lampshade dress :cry:

[Kitty]

4. The am-am partnerships I've begun in the past have this unsettling way of turning romantic. Then, when the romance ends, the partnership dissolves--and though I don't wish to sound mercenary, frankly, I'm out all the time and effort I've put into the dancing.

haha
so true

As for those who actually have am-am partnerships right now, I think you should do something today for your am partner, because you really are lucky to have that partner. So let your partner know.
I will

[Katarzyna]

As for those who actually have am-am partnerships right now, I think you should do something today for your am partner, because you really are lucky to have that partner. So let your partner know.
You forgot to mention that they are lucky to have us as well :)

[Laura]

1. Those of you who are lucky enough to have an am partner need to count your blessings. The hardest thing is finding someone who really wants to practice, who has a similar level of commitment and focus to you, and who is compatible physically and personally. They just aren't out there. At least I know my teacher and pro partner will dance with me because, well, I pay her.

This is so true. I looked for 7 years to find the right amateur partner for me, someone who I could really click with. I danced with a bunch of really nice amateur guys while I was looking, but that "click" was just not there. I also danced Pro/Am the whole time I was looking.

2. Some teachers do in fact pick up the slack for their students.

This is also true, but as many of us who have done Pro/Am know it's not true in ALL cases -- and it's kind of insulting when people automatically jump to the conclusion that just because someone does Pro/Am their teacher is doing everything for them. I always found it amusing when I was doing both Pro/Am and Amateur that I could be cut down for showing up in the ballroom with one guy and praised for showing up in the ballroom with the other, just because one was my teacher and the other was the amateur I was dancing with.

4. The am-am partnerships I've begun in the past have this unsettling way of turning romantic. Then, when the romance ends, the partnership dissolves--and though I don't wish to sound mercenary, frankly, I'm out all the time and effort I've put into the dancing.

Ain't that the truth. I'm so lucky in my amateur partnership because that isn't an issue.

For these reasons, I find the pro-am relationship much more congenial to my life and goals. I'm sure that there are plenty of people who question my talent because of this, and especially because my teacher is one of the top rhythm dancers in the country there are always gonna be the snippy little comments about how she's doing all the work. But I really couldn't care less about such comments--they're misguided and nothing more than the sort of thing people like to say to make themselves feel as though they know more than other people do.

RIGHT ON!

As for those who actually have am-am partnerships right now, I think you should do something today for your am partner, because you really are lucky to have that partner. So let your partner know.

Good idea!!! I will!

[alemana]

seven years... you must really love dancing.


sigh.

[rebeme]

I’ve recently decided to stop doing Pro/Am and seriously look for an am partner. I certainly hope it’ll take less than 7 years to find one! My time doing Pro/Am has been fabulous. I’ve improved dramatically in a short amount of time – faster than if I had stayed with my old Am partner. Despite compliments, I struggle to understand what my current ‘level’ is. Although I dance at a certain level, like ‘gold’, I am cognizant enough to know that my coach makes up for my lack of technique and makes me look better than I actually am. This has created a problem for me as I am looking for an amateur partner, but do not have a definitive ‘level’ to advertise myself as. The problem is exacerbated in that many amateurs do not pay any attention to pro/am ladies wanting to do am/am…

[scullystwin42]

I’ve recently decided to stop doing Pro/Am and seriously look for an am partner.

Good luck!! i hope you can find one. I joined i think 5 partner dancing sites, but so far, only got 1 actual possibility. I always listed myself as bronze, even though i've started doing silver. Better to start low, was my thought.

It heartens me to hear that you've been able to improve quickly - that was one of my goals - to be better than i was, at a slightly faster rate, when i take off for baby.

[Katarzyna]

I’ve recently decided to stop doing Pro/Am and seriously look for an am partner. I certainly hope it’ll take less than 7 years to find one! …
You look great, I am sure you will find someone quickly... !!!

[LennJS]

These pro-am vs am-am discussions worry me.

I started taking privates a while ago with a great, talented (I think) and enthousiastic teacher. Now, I started dancing because I wanted to try something new, I knew absolutely nothing about ballroom dancing. I'm in my early-mid 20s, great shape and great body for dancing and I'm dedicated to get good at this, so lots of potential there. I know we're headed down the pro-am road, she told me.
I'm not really sure if I'm doing the right thing, it is costing a pretty penny after all.

Just confused :?

[mamboqueen]

Well, Lenn, you probably will have lots of good opportunities to find an am partner if you choose to do that. The choice needs to be yours, though, not your teacher's. Some teachers might not steer you in that direction, for whatever reasons, so you should at least know what your options are. I'm not sure where you are, but I'd say it's safe to guess you won't have a hard time finding a female partner. In fact, if you posted an ad here, you'd probably have a bucket full of replies!

Good luck with whatever you decide. It sounds like you'll love dancing, no matter how you do it!

[lynn]

there are advantages to each route as pointed by many experienced DFers. You just have to make the decision that you think is suitable for you.

[mamboqueen]

That last sentence could be the entire moral of the story, Lynn.

[lynn]

That last sentence could be the entire moral of the story, Lynn.

Thank you, thank you [imitating elvis] :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[mamboqueen]

imitating elvis

But he's dead :(

Actually, his anniversary was this week. Same day as Madonna's birthday. And she broke several ribs, her collar bone and her hand after being tossed off her horse (Macha...you behind that?). Some useless information. Sorry to digress.

[Chris Stratton]

These pro-am vs am-am discussions worry me.

I started taking privates a while ago with a great, talented (I think) and enthousiastic teacher. Now, I started dancing because I wanted to try something new, I knew absolutely nothing about ballroom dancing. I'm in my early-mid 20s, great shape and great body for dancing and I'm dedicated to get good at this, so lots of potential there. I know we're headed down the pro-am road, she told me.
I'm not really sure if I'm doing the right thing, it is costing a pretty penny after all.

Just confused :?

Generally if you want to go the amateur partnership route you have to ask for it. Many teachers will support you in this, but keeping the business open requires that they assume pro-am when you don't express a preference. There are of course exceptions both ways - teachers with no experience or interest in working with amateur couples, teachers who don't have pro-am students at all, and even teachers who will take pro-am students but try to set them up with partners. A lot depends on the focus of the studio, too.

[Laura]

seven years... you must really love dancing.

I do.

I actually found my right partner after six years of looking, but then I had to wait a year while he got and recovered from knee surgery. During that time well-meaning people warned me that he might never come back, but I knew he would and he did. So I'm doubly lucky.

[macha]

Moi? :shock:

(damn those surveillance cameras!)

I mean... "You cain' prove it! Ye'll never git me aliiiiive!" :lol:

[Laura]

If you're talking about the warning, no. It was local friends, who even tried to set me up with another guy "just in case." :-)

[Joe]

4. The am-am partnerships I've begun in the past have this unsettling way of turning romantic. Then, when the romance ends, the partnership dissolves--and though I don't wish to sound mercenary, frankly, I'm out all the time and effort I've put into the dancing.
It takes two to tango...you don't want to lose a partnership to a romantic breakup? Don't get involved.

[Katarzyna]

4. The am-am partnerships I've begun in the past have this unsettling way of turning romantic. Then, when the romance ends, the partnership dissolves--and though I don't wish to sound mercenary, frankly, I'm out all the time and effort I've put into the dancing.
It takes two to tango...you don't want to lose a partnership to a romantic breakup? Don't get involved.
Or make it clear to the both of you that dancing comes first over everything...

[fascination]

besides all that, I'm new and even I know that that romantic problem is not exclusive to Am/ Am

[alemana]

truer words were never spoken.

[scullystwin42]

But seriously, try to make your challenge NOT how well you compare to your teacher, but how well you compare to your past performance (last lesson, last practice session, last comp). I know it's easier said than done, but I don't know any other way.
And enjoy it while it lasts. It really can be fun.

So i had to respond to Jools and all who responded to me about my neuroses about pro/am.

I had a lesson with my pro yesterday for the first time since i posted on DF, and i explained to him why i was being neurotic, and we had a good laugh and an even better practice. I was more relaxed, and able to concentrate on MY dancing instead of comparing. so...

THANKS.

[fascination]

still doesn't hurt to try to catch up to him a bit :wink:

[lynn]

and have fun with your lessons!!

[Kitty]

It takes two to tango...you don't want to lose a partnership to a romantic breakup? Don't get involved.
Or make it clear to the both of you that dancing comes first over everything...

dancing comes first over everything... how many of non-dancers would think saying that is crazy, yet I see nothing wrong... :shock:

[swan]

If you're talking about the warning, no. It was local friends, who even tried to set me up with another guy "just in case." :-)

Ha...And Laura did know best. I was one of those well intended local friends who's so worried about K wouldn't come back from surgery & started introducing potential parnters to her :)

Haven't really followed this thread much. But...my own 2 cents, having done both.

When I did not have AM partner (like right now), I would do Pro/Am just so that I could keep somewhat of competitive shape & get the competition fix. But AM/AM is always what I shoot for. It's just so much more fun & less costly (although my last 2 long distance partnerships added up to be probably just as costly as doing Pro/Am!)

The best thing about AM/AM is the way two work together & the loads of practice & the discussion how to make it work...That you just don't get in Pro/Am...

[standardgirl]

Both pro/am and am/am allow you to grow, probably in slightly different ways and different focuses. I learned so much this summer for an am/am partnership. I learned so many different things that I have never even thought about before. New ideas, new perspectives etc. about dancing. But, if I never did pro/am before that, I would not have been where I am right now with the amount of time. Of course, having the right pro helps a lot, and having a pro that actually cares helps even more.

currently dancing pro/am again while searching for an am partner...... :?

There are things I love about pro/am, but there are also lots of things I miss from not doing am/am. They are just different in some ways. Not that one is better than the other. Right now, my teacher is very clear and so is everyone else in the studio, that I am actively searching for an amateur partner, and I am dancing pro/am because of the lack of a partner. My teachers are supportive, and he encourages me to just get someone with the desire and passion, and train him. I want to dance am/am especially since I am young. I know I can always dance pro/am later in my life as much as I want hopefully. :wink:

[scullystwin42]

and have fun with your lessons!!

I would just like to say, thanks again to all at DF. I had a great lesson yesterday, and actually DANCED with my pro. Like, not me scrambling to catch up, but actually danced with him, and it felt fabulous.

Even he said so.

and i got over my sometimes-embarassement and added a sexy move to my rumba. and we kept it! Excitement!!!

just had to say thanks all for the help.

[Medira]

and have fun with your lessons!!

I would just like to say, thanks again to all at DF. I had a great lesson yesterday, and actually DANCED with my pro. Like, not me scrambling to catch up, but actually danced with him, and it felt fabulous.

Even he said so.

and i got over my sometimes-embarassement and added a sexy move to my rumba. and we kept it! Excitement!!!

just had to say thanks all for the help.
Congratulations!! :D :D :D That's wonderful to hear!

[scullystwin42]

Congratulations!! :D :D :D That's wonderful to hear!

Yes, very good news. you guys have given some great advice, made me so much better at my dancing and my attitude.

sorry, just had to gush a bit more. :P

[lynn]

and have fun with your lessons!!

I would just like to say, thanks again to all at DF. I had a great lesson yesterday, and actually DANCED with my pro. Like, not me scrambling to catch up, but actually danced with him, and it felt fabulous.

Even he said so.

and i got over my sometimes-embarassement and added a sexy move to my rumba. and we kept it! Excitement!!!

just had to say thanks all for the help.

Wow, that's wonderful to hear!! Congratulations!!

[scullystwin42]

and have fun with your lessons!!

just had to say thanks all for the help.

Wow, that's wonderful to hear!! Congratulations!!

Ok, i'm back. and insecure again. i'm such a doofus. I did my first performance/show dance with my new pro partner and i was all irritated afterwards because i know i messed up the end (and i know why id did - anticipated it too much) and my chest was in danger of falling out of my dress (in spite of multiple dress rehearsals!!!!!argh!!!). so i got a little irritated for a bit and then i got over it, but now i feel bad because my pro was so nice and said no one noticed, and to stop being so hard on myself. So now i feel bad because i don't want him to hink i didn't have fun. cause i did. i just don't like messing up, even a little.

i got problems, man. I think at this point, i'm just pathetic and looking for moral support.

got any?

[mamboqueen]

Yes, everyone gets frustrated with themselves, and I think most teachers are used to this and realize that people generally (maybe sometimes not) get over it. I use experiences like that as determination to get it right the next time.

Practice makes perfect.

P.S. You can always go back and tell him that you had fun. There's no expiration on that :)

[lynn]

stwin, i would really say congrats once again and not to worry about the little mistakes here and there! That's what happens in performances & comps - there are things that excites us, and there are things that disappoints us. But that's what the learning process is all about - improving whatever that needs improvement and have a better show/comp next time!

So....when's your next comp/show :wink: ???

[scullystwin42]

stwin, i would really say congrats once again and not to worry about the little mistakes here and there! That's what happens in performances & comps - there are things that excites us, and there are things that disappoints us. But that's what the learning process is all about - improving whatever that needs improvement and have a better show/comp next time!

So....when's your next comp/show :wink: ???

Two weeks - Chicago Harvest Moon. I was more nervous about this show than the comp, because, hey, if i screw up one dance, i have like three other chances to fix it. I'm doing the show dance again, so i can fix those little things.

you're both right, it's a learning process... But i felt a lot of pressure not to screw up because these two women who also take lessons from my pro kept telling me how much they like to watch me dance and all that, and i was all.."aahhh! watch the pros for that, i'm just trying to not embarass myself!" again, i am a doofus.

[mamboqueen]

I am sure you are being overly hard on yourself. Even the best goof up.

[fascination]

ya know ...I had about a month after that first comp where it really did a head game on me...I started taking myself so seriously...I started thinking that it was all probably a fluke....a bunch of other toxic crap...so I would go into lesson with all new material and more advanced emphasis on technique and think I stink... and while I was thinking that, my frame got bad, my concentration got bad.... my attitude stunk...and my lessons were a waste of my money and his time...I think its all about keeping it in perspective 1) only comparing our own dancing to what you are capable of and not others, and 2) keeping in perspective how big of a deal it ISNT if we stink the place up....I mean I want to dance well as much as if not more that anyone I know, but sh*t happens...at our last showcase...I was on so much allergy medication and had such a head full of snot I could scarcely walk a straight line let alone execute the 8 jillion free spins in my waltz routine...I think my instructor could not possibly care if I have a bad day but I know that it is very hard on him to have student after student saying that stuff to him over and over b/c he can never reassure them enough and for some of them it never goes away...and what's he supposed to say? he does his best to reassure us...that's part of his job and he certainly isn't going to hold it against any one of us b/c we all do it....but just like in dancing, I think he appreciates it when some of us learn how to prop ourselves up both physically and emotionally and not depend upon him for that...and both are neccessary for becoming better I think...he would never say it but I know that since I have stopped worrying about what he thinks so much and instead come in and do my best....the problem is gone.....

[fascination]

stwin, i would really say congrats once again and not to worry about the little mistakes here and there! That's what happens in performances & comps - there are things that excites us, and there are things that disappoints us. But that's what the learning process is all about - improving whatever that needs improvement and have a better show/comp next time!

So....when's your next comp/show :wink: ???

Two weeks - Chicago Harvest Moon. I was more nervous about this show than the comp, because, hey, if i screw up one dance, i have like three other chances to fix it. I'm doing the show dance again, so i can fix those little things.

you're both right, it's a learning process... But i felt a lot of pressure not to screw up because these two women who also take lessons from my pro kept telling me how much they like to watch me dance and all that, and i was all.."aahhh! watch the pros for that, i'm just trying to not embarass myself!" again, i am a doofus.hey look me up...I'll be there too :lol:

[scullystwin42]

I am sure you are being overly hard on yourself. Even the best goof up.

You're all right. maybe i just needed to hear it.

thanks - i appreciate it.

and fascination, i hope to see you there!

[Standard Dancer]

That is the usually advice. But I find that, when spectating at comps that one thing likely to make me want to absolutely ignore a couple for the remainder of the event is seeing them come out with all the pomp of champ dancers, and proceede to make classic bronze mistakes in the first few measures of actual dancing (especially if it is a champ event!). So while getting the act right is important, there are people in the audience who won't fall for it (and might even take offense) unless it is followed up in the quality of the dancing. Good presentation is important, but so is respecting the compeition by making an appropraite effort to prepare for it in areas of substance.

agreed. :)

You are lucky, DJ. You are describing what sounds like a heavenly experience. Someday, I hope to have a partner, and then I can make the comparison. But, I bet partnering with your spouse or S/O is even more magical.

*sigh* jealousy......

very true ... but partnering with your SO is also especially dangerous ...

As for those who actually have am-am partnerships right now, I think you should do something today for your am partner, because you really are lucky to have that partner. So let your partner know.

Will do - and thanks for the wise advice.

you're both right, it's a learning process... But i felt a lot of pressure not to screw up because these two women who also take lessons from my pro kept telling me how much they like to watch me dance and all that, and i was all.."aahhh! watch the pros for that, i'm just trying to not embarass myself!" again, i am a doofus.

it's so easy (and natural) to feel pressure, especially during a performance when all eyes are on you. but try to remember that we're always the hardest on ourselves. at worst, people might comment here and there but whatever ... let them talk. who has time for gossip anyway when the time is better spent dancing? :wink:

[Standard Dancer]

p.s. 13 pages was quite a lot to go through! phew! :lol: