beginner-follower

[vey]

Hi everybody! I've been reading dance-forums' discussions for a while and found them very useful. Finally, I've built up enough courage for my first post
:)
Here goes my question: :?:
Being a beginner I'm never quite sure what to do when I don't understand leader's signal , is it better to continue whatever I was doing before (ignoring the signal) or try to interpret the signal to the best of my understanding ? It seems that whichever of these options I pick, some leaders get annoyed :( Any advice?

Vey

[Vince A]

Hi vey,
I just wanted to say "hi" and welcome to the Dance-Forums.

What you should strive to do as a beginner IS NOT to anticipate any move. So, if you do something that you think the leader is wanting, you are anticipating. Go where the leader is putting you . . . be it right or wrong. It will come to you, we've all been there.

As a leader, I can follow, and I had the same problems until someone told me not to anticpate any move. Just go!

You may want to check this out as well:
http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=869

See ya'
Vince

[SwinginBoo]

I think you should always try to follow. Even if you aren't sure. If you don't get it, ask the leader to try it again and maybe explain what you should do. Most leaders shouldn't mind if you don't follow something but want to try to learn it. I think it would be a rare instance for a leader to be annoyed.

[jenibelle]

Hi!
Glad you've worked up the courage to post :wink:
I think it's just experience that you need, the more you practise the more accustomed you will be and the easier you can "read the guy's mind." Besides, a really good leader will make it very clear what he wants you to do and if you screw up, who cares? Just try it again!
By the way, that's not cool if a guy gets annoyed at you...

Happy dancing!
Jeni

[Sagitta]

Welcome to DFs Vey!! :)

As everyone else has said always follow, and don't anticipate. If that's what you're doing...If you have no idea what is required of you it could be because it is a complicated move that's hard to lead if the follow has not much experience with the dance. There are some moves like that, not many, but there are out there. In that case the leader should not try them out with a beginner. Another possibility is the leader has not lead the move(s) as he/she should. In either case the leader should not get annoyed with the follower. That reflects really poorly on him/her and not you.

[vey]

Thanks for your welcome and advice guys!

Intellectually, I know about the importance of not anticipating but in reality it gets sometimes overwhelming for me-beginner to put everything together during the dance (to keep the beat, to follow, to listen to the music), so I panic and, I guess, start anticipating... :(

Vince, thank you for an interesting thought: "So, if you do something that you think the leader is wanting, you are anticipating. " I've never realized that!!!

Thanks for your support Sagitta and jenibelle!!!

Anyway, sorry if my questions are too naive..., I 'm just overwhelmed and trying to figure things out. The "beginners' corner" is put together nicely and is very useful, thanks!!! I've already read through most of it!!!

Vey

[pygmalion]

Hi vey! Welcome to the forums. :D First, I don't think your questions are naive at all. You'd be surprised how many "experienced" followers don't understand the concept as well as you do, and go around unconsciously anticipating leads all the time. I was guilty of this for over a year, until I switched teachers and he wouldn't put up with it. :oops: :?

That said, I agree with the consensus here. Try your best to interpret the leads being given, then follow them. You'll improve rapidly as a follower, and you'll be giving feedback to the lead in terms of how the leads are being interpreted. Don't forget, leads are fallible too. Just because you're new doesn't mean they're always right. And part of your job as the follower is to give the leads that feedback.

One suggestion that might help is to attend some group classes where a specific sequence of moves is dictated by the teacher, and make sure you consciously follow what's being led. That way, you have a better idea of what to expect, at least at first. Going out to a club or party at first is good, but it's like getting thrown in at the deep end. Scary! And difficult. So I would suggest that you mix some of that with some group instruction -- where you get to dance with other students at various levels of ability, and with different leading styles.

Best of luck. :D

[Spitfire]

It's certainly better to get whatever you're being lead into wrong then to ignore it; as Vince says go where the leader is putting you and not try to guess. Most of us leaders are aware that as a new dancer you may not get things right at first. It's certainly been my experience that if I repeat it a few times the follower will get the right idea and if not she can ask and I'll gladly show her. :D

[Sagitta]

Intellectually, I know about the importance of not anticipating but in reality it gets sometimes overwhelming for me-beginner to put everything together during the dance (to keep the beat, to follow, to listen to the music), so I panic and, I guess, start anticipating... :(


It does, doesn't it!! I danced with two beginners on Tuesday night, who hadn't danced before, even dances other then salsa!! They were overwhelmed at the beginning of the dance, but I kept to the basics with a few moves thrown in, getting them comfortable. When I lead them through move after move I could see the panic setting in so I slowed down. (A beginner sometimes needs more times between moves.) It is the leader's responsibility to make sure that they dance together in a partnership.

A couple months ago I was just like you. I would often get overwhelmed, but it passes like all things. As Pygmalion said, a combination of group class and club dancing can help. Also listening to the music. As a newbie I find that if I listen to salsa music more I dance salsa better. My body has an easier time of synching with the beat of the music without as much concentration.

Anyway, sorry if my questions are too naive..., I 'm just overwhelmed and trying to figure things out.

No question is too naive :) One can always learn more. Your questions push the more experienced dancers to think about their experiences, what they do without thinking as much. If the experienced dancers can help you well they become that much better dancers from the experience. Or that's what I find out is true for myself anyway, even as a rank newbie dancer.

Anyway, I better stop pontificating and get ready for the monthly Ithaca social dance.

[SDsalsaguy]

Hi vey! Sorry to be late to the thread, but still wanted to say hello and welcome you to the DF! :D

I think your question is a great one and that if more people would ask sooner they wouldn’t develop which take a looooooooong time to break (if they even ever do). Vince’s point, as you’ve noted, is key. Just try to be as responsive to what is being communicated as you can be – it is not your responsibility to try and decipher what you think that communication was meant to be, only to respond to what is actually communicated to you. If anything goes wrong beyond this then it is on the leader to fix it.

Glad to have you with us as a posting member!

[youngsta]

Welcome to the board Vey! :D What you should do is put yourself on autopilot. See the autopilot doesn't think...it just does. I've found when I dance with a beginning salsera if I distract her from the dance (a joke, chit chat) she just does because she's not thinking about it. Go to where he is leading and never analyze it. He may be leading a pattern incorrectly, but as long as you follow what he's doing you are right :wink:

[SDsalsaguy]

He may be leading a pattern incorrectly, but as long as you follow what he's doing you are right :wink:
Very well put youngsta! :D

[vey]

Million thanks to everybody. Now I have to digest and process all this valuable information.


One suggestion that might help is to attend some group classes where a specific sequence of moves is dictated by the teacher, and make sure you consciously follow what's being led. That way, you have a better idea of what to expect, at least at first.
Best of luck. :D

Oh , absolutely, I'm taking group lessons for the past 4 months, and that's exactly what happens in class - I do know what the sequence of patterns to expect - which helps me to learn new moves/steps but I do not learn how to follow as much. That's why I'm "forcing" myself going to social dances, although, as pigmalion wrote, it is rather scary for me at this point.

Vey

[pygmalion]

Hmm. Are you going by yourself, or do you have some dance friends, maybe from class, who can go with you? Sometimes that can help.

Man. I'll never forget the time, when I'd been dancing salsa maybe a month or two, that I got crazy enough to go to a salsa music/dance festival at Sea World, which is a few miles from my house. :oops: :lol: I was actually trying to dance with some serious salseros. And I have to say they were pretty darn nice. It was terrifying, but fun.

[vey]

Hmm. Are you going by yourself, or do you have some dance friends, maybe from class, who can go with you? Sometimes that can help.

Yep, going with some dance friends is the best thing, I've realized that, so sometimes I manage "to build a team" of people form the class and go out but sometimes people are not available and I go out by myself (it really builds my charachter :wink: ) I do see advanced dancers from my dance studio sometimes but I don't feel like asking them to dance since I'm significantly lower then their level and I know that it'll definitely will stress me out psychologically to dance with them.

The funny thing I've realized that it's more useful to socialize with guys from the class than with fellow followers :o because, although, girls' chit-chat is fun and you can exchange info about clubs, moves, dancing frustrations but ultimately it's guys/leaders you will have to dance and practice with in order to become a good dancer. So I have to break my social habits here- it's always easier for us girls to socialize with each other :wink:

[salsarhythms]

Welcome Vey!!!!

Let me tell you, your question is awesome...

Not only is it NOT naive, but it's such a great question
because most people don't ask it until they've gotten to
the point where they feel as "experts" and at that point
it's kind of hard to break the bad habits...

Everyone has included some great points for you to
consider...

This is a tough one and it comes with a lot of practice
and dancing with different people. But definately I know
someone mentioned about anticipating...the thing is you
only want to commit once you know, not assume, what it
is that your lead wants to do...

[salsachinita]

Welcome to the DF family! (I'm late as usual)....so much salsa to dance, so little time :wink: !

I go out by myself (it really builds my charachter :wink: )

Definitely! I do it all the time :P ! It could be nerve-wrecking at first, but pretty soon you'd become part of the scene like a fish in water....! Now I prefer to turn up by myself & meet ppl there.

I do see advanced dancers from my dance studio sometimes but I don't feel like asking them to dance since I'm significantly lower then their level and I know that it'll definitely will stress me out psychologically to dance with them.

It's actually a good idea to dance with them (once you feel comfortable to do so of course), as you will get a proper feel of some good leads, thus pick up new patterns via autopilot mode!

The funny thing I've realized that it's more useful to socialize with guys from the class than with fellow followers :o because, although, girls' chit-chat is fun and you can exchange info about clubs, moves, dancing frustrations but ultimately it's guys/leaders you will have to dance and practice with in order to become a good dancer. So I have to break my social habits here- it's always easier for us girls to socialize with each other :wink:

Precisely why I end up having more guy friends than gal friends! (and in the world where good leads are hard to come by, girls can get awfully competitive 'fighting over' those good ones...! :roll: )

Have fun out there! I am a firm believer that the social scene is the best learning ground :wink: !

[MNswing]

Although I'm not a salsa dancer (plz don't shoot me :wink: ), I've found that when I get overhwhelmed and find myself THINKING about what the lead wants me to do, I simply close my eyes and concentrate solely on what I'm FEELING my partner guiding me to do. (The lead doesn't have to know you're panicking and need to de-stress... they'll think you're just really into the music and lovin' it!) This method takes a lot of the distraction out of the dance and helps you get more intuned with your body and your partner's body as well. It also helps you forget about all the people you feel are watching you... when you close your eyes, it's just you and your partner... and it's great!

[youngsta]

Good stuff MN! :wink:

[SDsalsaguy]

Good stuff MN! :wink:
. . . even if you aren't a salsa dancer! :wink: :lol:

[Julili]

Hello from Belarus!! great that I've found this forum and i can learn more about salsa and salsa dancers, because in Belarus it is only becoming popular, and we make only few steps in this direction...I am sure it will become popular and there will be many salsa clubs :D
I love salsa, great and beautiful dance!

[pygmalion]

Welcome Julili! :D If it's salsa lovers you want, you've come to the right place! :D

[salsarhythms]

Welcome to the forum Julili!!!

[youngsta]

:twisted: MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA!!!! Soon we will rule the WORLD!

[Julili]

I see that you are a great team :lol:

[SDsalsaguy]

I see that you are a great team :lol:
Thanks Julili . . . and we're happy to have you with us! :D

[David]

Just thought I'd throw in my $0.02 here... as a biginner follower. Had my second ever dance as a follower on the weekend, was also only the second ever dance as a leader for the girl who was leading me.

Was a barrel of laughs and very educational, not to mention a bit of entertainment for half the people in the place :)

In some respects it was a real eye opener too, although, since we're both "beginners" in this case, I'll wait a while before drawing too many conclusions. But one thing I can say with certainty is that I did find it hard not to anticipate at times. This in no small part would be due to both of our lack of relative experience.

One thing she made a point of doing was leading me through a couple of my regular moves. While the moves themselves are not that complex for the follower to execute, it was very interesting to note how fine the line is between a followable lead and one which leaves you standing in the middle of the dance floor wondering just what the hell you were supposed to be doing.

[pygmalion]

That sounds like so much fun, David. And it is really enlightening to see how the other half lives, so to speak. I, for one, am glad that I usually don't have to lead. 8)

[Sagitta]

You know I want to do more dances as a follower. I agree that it is an eye-opener, but it is fun too!! It is rare that such an opportunity presents itself!! How does one get more opportunities to do this. And I'm not talking of back leading here!! :)

[David]

You know I want to do more dances as a follower. I agree that it is an eye-opener, but it is fun too!! It is rare that such an opportunity presents itself!! How does one get more opportunities to do this. And I'm not talking of back leading here!! :)

Guess it depends. In my case I knew that the girl in question had a vague interest in trying out leading. She used to joke about swapping roles in the middle of a dance and seeing if anybody would notice :lol: So when I felt comfortable enough to give it a try I just asked... well actually I got her up for a dance, reversed the hand hold, and said "OK, you lead". :wink:

Alternatively if you see a girl leading another girl, ask her for a dance and once she gets to know that you can dance mention that you'd like to give following a try.

Finally, if you and some of your (male) friends are comfortable enough, you could try bringing up the idea of getting them to lead you through a few moves. You want to make sure that the guys in question have enough experience behind them, and are close enough friends, not to get the wrong idea about this one though :shock: Basically means guys who have already "been there, done that" as far as following is concerned.

[suek]

Chiming in late here...Welcome Vey. (Every time I read your handle I want to add "Oy!")

As a relative newcomer to all of this, and as a dedicated student of following, I can relate all too well to the agonies of learning to follow and of breaking into the social dance scene. Some thoughts:
• I have only one job to do on the dance floor: follow. Go where I'm led, at the speed and direction I'm given, and stop when I'm stopped
• Jenn (Pygmalion) mentioned going to class where a series of moves are taught and following very consciously. Another approach that has been very useful in reducing my anticipation has been to close my eyes and cover my ears when the choreography is given to the leads and then just follow, without knowing what's coming. Alternatively I will ask my teacher to have the leads mix it up, to bury the move du jour in some freestyle; once again so that I can work on my responsiveness and following as well as on the footwork
• Early on I took some lead/follow classes that were invaluable to my foundation: Who knew there was up/down, front/back, right/left connection points? Learning how to feel all those directions in my lead's hands helped big in reducing my anticipation/backleading
• Social dancing: I paid some big dues there. I had no friends in the dance world I wanted to enter (lindy hop in my case). I went to the Wednesday night swing dance over and over and over again for months and danced with almost no one except the teachers. It was so HARD and took a very long time to get comfortable. I am very grateful to the folks who danced with me and encouraged me and answered my questions. Now I go every week and feel so much at home. And love it.

Hope some of this helps

[Marvellous]

You know I want to do more dances as a follower. I agree that it is an eye-opener, but it is fun too!! It is rare that such an opportunity presents itself!! How does one get more opportunities to do this. And I'm not talking of back leading here!! :)

Guess it depends. In my case I knew that the girl in question had a vague interest in trying out leading. She used to joke about swapping roles in the middle of a dance and seeing if anybody would notice :lol: So when I felt comfortable enough to give it a try I just asked... well actually I got her up for a dance, reversed the hand hold, and said "OK, you lead". :wink:

Alternatively if you see a girl leading another girl, ask her for a dance and once she gets to know that you can dance mention that you'd like to give following a try.

Finally, if you and some of your (male) friends are comfortable enough, you could try bringing up the idea of getting them to lead you through a few moves. You want to make sure that the guys in question have enough experience behind them, and are close enough friends, not to get the wrong idea about this one though :shock: Basically means guys who have already "been there, done that" as far as following is concerned.

I am lucky where I am. If a guy wants to follow it is not problem. Often, the women at my lessons outnumber the men about 3:1 so some of the better women lead during lessons, and lead for the women after the lessons. Thus, I have access to women who can lead. Also, a few of us guys have no problem with dancing with each other for fun/education. I feel sorry for guys who are too uptight to be seen dancing with another guy. I've heard that it is related to how comfortable a guy is with his own sexuality....whatever that means exactly.....I have noticed one thing interesting though; guys that I take lessons with are apt to ask me rather than any other male to dance with them if they want to practice following. I don't think it is my skill level, because I am certainly not their best option in that department. One theory I have is that they choose me because it am very "masculine", really alpha. I don't know whether it is relavant or not, but it might be. I am thinking that dancing with me relieves them of the fear of anyone questioning their sexual orientation???
Most of the guys on my dance scene are pretty much effeminate in my opinion, and these guys NEVER dance with each other. It seems that only the "real" men dance together where I am.

[Sagitta]

Most of the guys on my dance scene are pretty much effeminate in my opinion, and these guys NEVER dance with each other. It seems that only the "real" men dance together where I am.

So I AM A REAL MANNN!!! :) I couldn't help that!! I'm in a great mood tonight. I'm just back from latin dance night at Commonground and it was loads of fun.

Social dancing: I paid some big dues there. I had no friends in the dance world I wanted to enter (lindy hop in my case). I went to the Wednesday night swing dance over and over and over again for months and danced with almost no one except the teachers. It was so HARD and took a very long time to get comfortable. I am very grateful to the folks who danced with me and encouraged me and answered my questions. Now I go every week and feel so much at home. And love it.

I can relate. For me it wasn't the issue of asking people to dance so much. I could dance all night, or try too, as I'm merely a bumbling newbie!! :) It does take a while for you to get to know the regulars and hang out. Brings back the thought that Pygmalion had a while back on how can one obtain a unique style of salsa dancing and salsachnita's response that it actually is a way of life. Very true!!! :)

[vey]

Chiming in late here...Welcome Vey. (Every time I read your handle I want to add "Oy!")
Thanks for your welcome Suek and feel free to add "oy" whenever you feel like :)
Thanks for your thoughts and advice on following!
Another approach that has been very useful in reducing my anticipation has been to close my eyes and cover my ears when the choreography is given to the leads and then just follow, without knowing what's coming.
That's a great idea, I'll try that. Although I've noticed that I have almost no problems following the leaders who are taking the same classes as me, may be because I KNOW all the moves they know and it's easy for me to recognize them. It's the outside leaders and more advanced guys that I have problems with... and I think there's also a psychological component to it - I feel intimidated by advanced leaders and afraid that I won't be able to follow, I'm actually much more relaxed dancing with people who are at my level.

Thanks for your story about your beginnings in social dancing, it makes me feel better about my own uncomfortable efforts.

[Sagitta]

It's the outside leaders and more advanced guys that I have problems with... and I think there's also a psychological component to it - I feel intimidated by advanced leaders and afraid that I won't be able to follow, I'm actually much more relaxed dancing with people who are at my level.

I actually have to work at this. I've noticed this a lot as a leader introducing people to salsa for the first time. RELAXING. I find myself distracting the follow so that they aren't so tense. Dancing comes easier that way!! :) Same actually applies to me, in a way, as I'm just starting out dancing. If I get tensed up, I don't hear the music, don't feel my partner -- it's awful!! :(