men who try to "correct" you or "teach you" during a dance

[yippee1999]

I just wanna rant, and see what others have to say.

I've only been dancing salsa for 1.5 years. I think I'm "good" for 1.5 years. Granted, I don't know every technique. Often a guy will initiate a move and I have no idea what he wants me to do in response. While I understand some men want to genuinely teach me, another part of me feels that "some" guys will "correct" me during a dance almost out of their own insecurity. In other words, they know some people might be watching us. They want to put the "blame" on me, because I am clearly not as experienced. But I feel that, yes, while it's part my doing, simply because I haven't learned a particular move, that it's his "fault" too... that maybe he's just not a good leader. And it seems to me that a good number of guys can't admit this. And quite frankly I get tired of it. But... I'm not good with conflict, so I'll be polite and accept his suggestions, direction, etc., even though I really want to say "why do you have to be so insecure. Just admit you didn't lead me well enough".

Like the other night, this guy said "you should never let go of your partner's hands". He said this to clearly imply that I had let go of his hand when I shouldn't have, and that I was then not able to take the direction he was trying to give me. But it's not like I just "let go" of a guy's hands when I'm dancing. I only do so when I think he's trying to release me into a move. So then, I was afraid to let go EVER with this guy. It's like "you need to tell me when it's time to let go and not let go!"

I also have to wonder if, the more advanced a guy is, the more apt he is going to be to correct a woman, even if he was at fault,

As a woman, I find it sorta unfortunate that, due to the understanding that the guy always leads, and therefore "knows" what you as a couple are supposed to be doing, that it is then only the men who feel they can make a correction to the woman. I guess the woman can never do so to the guy, or say, "here's how you do it", because the guy is supposed to be the authority on HOW to do anything, and the woman just follows. How I'd love to just say to some guys "uh, no, you're just a bad leader", or "while you're a good leader, on this particular move, you lost me."

While I realize part of my thoughts on this could be due to my own pride (I don't like being wrong or corrected :--), I still believe that part of me is right on some of these guys...

[nikita]

Just put them on your DND list:raisebro: ...

[SPratt74]

I made a thread like this a while back, so I completely understand. I had one guy during my first month of dancing correct me on every single step that I was taking. He would take my arm too, and pull me or whatever, and I was like man that hurts. I finally decided to tell my friend one night at a club (that teaches Ballroom), and she said that she will watch him more, and she did. When I showed her who he was, all of the instructors took note, and pretty much toned him down. He was trying to work ahead of the instructors anyways while we were just trying to cover basics, so the instructors weren't too happy with him. But yeah... I was so frustrated after that night. I didn't break down in tears or anything, but I was pacing back and forth for a while until I calmed down. I learned a lesson from it though, and that was to always tell one of the instructors if someone isn't treating you right no matter how little the problem maybe, because these people do the same things on others, and the instructors sure as heck don't want to lose any students over a student that thinks they are better than everyone, and especially if they know that they can take care of the problem without any fuss!

On the flip side of things... I have been taking lessons from two instructors for the past seven months. And I was telling my dance partner this past week, that same guy that would correct me on everything now asks me for my opinions, because I am now the more advanced dancer than he is. I might not have it all down technically yet, but I can teach them how to lead, and he knows this now lol! What can I say... gotta love karma! ;)

[quixotedlm]

same guy that would correct me on everything now asks me for my opinions, because I am now the more advanced dancer than he is. I might not have it all down technically yet, but I can teach them how to lead, and he knows this now lol! What can I say... gotta love karma! ;)

Sometimes it is not about karma at all. Some beginners are genuinely interested in giving/taking critical feedback and are as much comfortable in giving unasked for advice a they are in asking for feedback. They just don't have enough social skills to know when it is inappropriate...

So yeah put them on your DND list..but do so temporarily. Some of these folk are good learners and are bound to learn better dancing as well as better social skills soon enough.

[nikita]

I don't know, if anybody shares this. But after my experience- people, which correct:uplaugh: and explain all the time, so that you count the seconds, untill the song is over, are the worst dancers:D . Good dancers don't do this.

[nytransp]

A TRULY good leader knows how to make the lady look good no matter what. I can remember when I was first learning and could barely do a basic, I had some great leaders that made me look good and feel good on the dance floor and with each one I learned and improved with each dance. It's one thing to gently correct someone during the process of dancing and it's another to embarass someone or shame them into thinking "OMG when do I let your hand go! Am I doing this right?!" Dancing is supposed to be fun. If the corrections are too abrasive I will usually just smile and nod blankly and hope they get the hint, they usually do. If they start leading me to hard because they think I'm not "getting it" when in reality, I just am no longer enjoying the dance and I want to walk off the dancefloor, I will just say smile and say .."um, can you soften your lead a bit please?" , they are always VERY surprised when I say this but I don't have to say it twice.

The same applies to women. If a guys is clearly struggling with a move or is a beginner I will ask them "would you like me to offer suggestions as to how to do that move?" or something similar, mostly they say "yes please that would be great!"..other times they will say no and that's fine too, I smile and follow as best I can and say thank you at the end of the dance. I never correct anyone or offer unsolicted advice, it's nerve wracking for alot of guys to ask a woman to dance and I'm not going to compound that by offering unsolicted advice.

[la morena]

I don't mind a bit of constructive critisism to improve my dancing. But the other day (in an improver lesson), I was in closed position with a guy and he 'corrected' my left hand by placing it differently. For some reason this really peeved me - it wasn't like my hand was halfway down his back or anything. And it is nicer to say something rather than just moving the follower to where they want me to be!

[englezul]

A TRULY good leader knows how to make the lady look good no matter what

The reverse of that is that a truly good follower knows how to follow a bad leader (and thus make him look good ) no matter what.

They are both useless afirmations. Reality doesn't work so conveniently.

[SPratt74]

I don't know, if anybody shares this. But after my experience- people, which correct:uplaugh: and explain all the time, so that you count the seconds, untill the song is over, are the worst dancers:D . Good dancers don't do this.

Yeah I agree. I don't think that these people have the right dancing skills to be trying to teach you anything (unless they are helping you count a step that you don't get, and you know you don't get) lol. Then I don't mind them counting things for me.

And I like learning from people, but it's been my experience that you have to watch out who you are learning from. The guy might think he knows all when he doesn't (most likely he's just trying to show off). I have one guy that's sweet as can be, and that's really the best male dancer in my opinion (he's not an instructor, but is working on being one), but its hard to learn from him, because his frame is off, and he doesn't prep me right even though he knows the steps (and he is good at his steps, he just needs to get the frame down and the prep down). I love dancing with him though, because he's so talented, and I'm getting used to his movements lol, but again (and I know that he'll be great once he gets everything)... so I'll listen to him, just cause he knows his steps and is good at explaining them, but I don't think that you should listen to everyone. You have to be picky. And my advice for that is when in doubt... get an instructor!

[africana]

It depends on who it is, it doesn't feel good, but I'd like to know if I'm doing something fundamentally wrong especially if the lead is someone I respect.
It's better than thinking you're good when people actually see those issues. I spent a lot of time not realizing really bad things I did like backleading/anticipating and being heavy. I'm happy that people eventually told me. And bad habits are hard to kill so I occassionally ask for feedback or videotape myself ;)

[sara1011]

I don't mind a bit of constructive critisism to improve my dancing.
Neither do it. However, maybe four weeks ago I was out dancing. A cha cha came on and someone that I know whom I hadn't seen in ages asked me to dance. We were dancing just fine--he was leading and I was following--when he tried some type of cross body move. I'm still trying to figure it out because it wasn't a regular cross body. Nor was it a cross body followed by a turn because I can follow that. Anyway, I missed a cue that (apparently) I was supposed to get right after the cross body. He told me that he was "trying something," I smiled, and he tried it again. I missed the cue again, which to me was saying that he wasn't exactly leading it in a way that I would get the cue (since I had gotten his other cues up 'til that point). Rather than just laugh it off, 'cause hey! it's a dance, not open heart surgery, he said, semi-jokingly (and we all know that often times truths are cushioned between jokes): "Why can't you do this? All the other girls I've tried it with got it."

That was the last time I danced with him that night.

[nikita]

Ok. I give you an example. Last week- Kizomba (Zouk). Very slowly music. The guy- much too fast, tries to do some steps. Me confused, what to do. He:" Ah- you don't know this step:raisebro: !" Me- nice, smiling "No." He showed me...Fortunately slowly, what brought us closer to the rythm. His comment:" Ah- much better!"
Next step- much too fast again. " Ah- you also don't know this step:raisebro: :raisebro: !" Me. "No- this step I also don't know", I wispered less, but still smiling. He showed me, thank God slowly. Somehow we finished this song.
Next time he came, I just said:"No:nope: .
But sara's is worse.

[africana]

As a woman, I find it sorta unfortunate that, due to the understanding that the guy always leads, and therefore "knows" what you as a couple are supposed to be doing, that it is then only the men who feel they can make a correction to the woman. I guess the woman can never do so to the guy, or say, "here's how you do it", because the guy is supposed to be the authority on HOW to do anything, and the woman just follows. How I'd love to just say to some guys "uh, no, you're just a bad leader", or "while you're a good leader, on this particular move, you lost me."

While I realize part of my thoughts on this could be due to my own pride (I don't like being wrong or corrected :--), I still believe that part of me is right on some of these guys... LOL I just read this part hahaa! I hate to be wrong too, very stubborn. but I do correct things like lack of timing or roughness, especially if I know them well and I expect better from them.
So I think it's only fair that they can correct me too. besides they're always complaining about women who correct themn (which side wins? :rolleyes: )

But the blame game is never fun from either POV, it's a waste of time imo. Just ignore it if possible. Also the dance is not all about the lead doing everything or taking blame for everything. I find myself apologizing if I think I missed something or did it wrong, just to acknowledge that I had some responsbility in the matter, and then try to be aware next time. And there's no hard feelings...

[nytransp]

I don't know, if anybody shares this. But after my experience- people, which correct:uplaugh: and explain all the time, so that you count the seconds, untill the song is over, are the worst dancers:D . Good dancers don't do this.
I must agree

[amo_dile_que_no]

When social dancing, I want to give the lady the most enjoyable dance that I can possibley give her. If I lead something and it turns out awkward, I apologize for the lead regardless of who's "fault" it was. Offering unsolicited advice (or criticism) in a social setting is not something I care to do. I try to lead it better the next time or don't do it again. If she asks me what I wanted her to do, then I'll certainly respond. Otherwise it's about the enjoyment not the technicality of the dance.

[devane]

Firstly.
If someone is making a serious error on the dance floor I don't stop a give lessons I would just forget about that particular sequence and do easier ones. If it's class time and you're practicing well that's ok.







Like the other night, this guy said "you should never let go of your partner's hands".

Just by this statement alone I tend would tend to blame him. He seems to have learnt a sequence but doesn't know how to lead it correctly.

So if a sequence required him to switch from a parallel hand postion (left holding right) to a cross-hand position (right holding right.......) ,you holding on would prevent him from changing hands. So this rule holds no merit :rolleyes: . He was only saying it because in the particular sequence it required it.

The correct way would be the guy holds the girl's hand and HE lets go when needed. He has to be the one in control of this as he is the only one who knows the next move.
Don't pull away your hand but there are times when it happens.
When you are loosing your balance
Your hands slips......but the main thing is to learn how to hide/recover from a mistake and continue.........not stop and have an argument.

When you are truly dancing , non-cheorographed and not practicing a sequence you have done in the class, the girl has no idea what move comes next. She is following individual movements : "There is no sequence as far as a follower is concerned".

You see you can learn a complex sequence in a class and believe you can lead/follow it because you are doing it but if the guy tried to pull it off in a few weeks without the girl practicing it again what would happen? Trust me you can get away with not leading/following when you're in a class.

I am apparently supposed to be good at leading, I can pull off sequences on people who haven't learnt them (well that's what leading is) BUT there are times when you will have a sequence where you feel "this won't work unless they knew it" or "this only works in rueda". I feel a loss in connection in these moves and try to correct this but some will rely on verbally giving instructions like "Keep your hand behind your back when I let go" or "on the 5,6,7 spin" or rely on the girl knowing the sequence which is wrong. This is why the guy blamed you. Because he can lead some moves but not others and isn't aware of this.
It maybe you too :D but get a good lead to find out this.

[devane]

A TRULY good leader knows how to make the lady look good no matter what. I can remember when I was first learning and could barely do a basic, I had some great leaders that made me look good and feel good on the dance floor and with each one I learned and improved with each dance.
The Reason they are good is because of the Golden Rule "Dance at the common level".
I can't remember where I read/heard it but it makes perfect sense. If you don't dance at a common level someone's gonna look awful.


Ever danced with a guy who's trying to pull off a double/triple spin with a neck drop on a beginner:shock:
That's the extreme but I've seen it a few times.
I read a few posts here where the guys broke this rule.
Shame on them!

[nytransp]

The Reason they are good is because of the Golden Rule "Dance at the common level".
I can't remember where I read/heard it but it makes perfect sense. If you don't dance at a common level someone's gonna look awful.


Ever danced with a guy who's trying to pull off a double/triple spin with a neck drop on a beginner:shock:
That's the extreme but I've seen it a few times.
I read a few posts here where the guys broke this rule.
Shame on them!
True, it's considered the courteous thing to do. I think I heard that at a Salsa Freak bootcamp. The same guy that maybe did nothing more than a copa or a few turns and CBLs with me will do multiple dips and head drops with the next person he dances with. He knows how to adjust for the level he is dancing with and he is the guy that all the ladies want to dance with : ).

I find dancing fun and even theraputic..I don't want to be corrected unless I am paying for a lesson or I ask the guy for feedback.

[SPratt74]

Neither do it. However, maybe four weeks ago I was out dancing. A cha cha came on and someone that I know whom I hadn't seen in ages asked me to dance. We were dancing just fine--he was leading and I was following--when he tried some type of cross body move. I'm still trying to figure it out because it wasn't a regular cross body. Nor was it a cross body followed by a turn because I can follow that. Anyway, I missed a cue that (apparently) I was supposed to get right after the cross body. He told me that he was "trying something," I smiled, and he tried it again. I missed the cue again, which to me was saying that he wasn't exactly leading it in a way that I would get the cue (since I had gotten his other cues up 'til that point). Rather than just laugh it off, 'cause hey! it's a dance, not open heart surgery, he said, semi-jokingly (and we all know that often times truths are cushioned between jokes): "Why can't you do this? All the other girls I've tried it with got it."

That was the last time I danced with him that night.

Wow! I hope that guy never becomes an instructor! I've had guys try new moves on to me too. The one guy that's training to be a teacher that I talked about in my previous post will try new things on me. He's great at teaching (even though his leading and prep needs work), and there was one song two weeks ago that we danced to, and we did the same step over and over again until he made sure that I got it (I didn't get it, because it's not a step at my level yet), but it pretty much lasted the whole song. He stayed and asked me to dance another dance though, so I know I didn't frustrate him lol. And we actually danced more songs after that. But if he had said that to me, well... I know how to throw a good evil eye if I ever need to! :p

[thespina13]

At this point in my dancing (I've been dancing for just over a year now), I actually appreciate pointers. If they're done right. Example, I have a rather regular friend who was trying to lead something, but I was doing it wrong again and again. HIs accent is very strong and I wasn't getting what he wanted from me... and finally he just gave up and forgot about it. I got frustrated because I wanted him to just slow down a bit and walk me through it. Once I do it properly once or twice I've got no problems with it. I just have to understand first. This was a nebulous lead and something I hadn't encountered first. This is an example of what I don't like. What I don't mind at all is if someone sees Im having repeated trouble with something and openly tells me how to do it. Then if I don't get it, let's just move on, please say "oh that's ok. We'll get it sooner or later", and have a good time. I even like it if someone takes me to a quiet spot and just goes through it with me once or twice. I'm a perennial student. BUt during the dance, on the floor, in the club, brevity and patience and FUN are key. PLus, no one should ever muscle a lady through a series of moves she's not ready for. Leads should obviously read the level of their follower and adjust accordingly, so everyone can have a confident, good time.

[alemana]

it's only very rarely acceptable for a guy i don't know to correct me on the floor. it all depends on his tone. there's a world of difference between

"whoa, mind if i try that again? and wouldja mind putting your hand *there* when i reach for it..." (etc)

and

"you must do X." then later, "that's why i told you that you have to do X."

first guy will get full cooperation and a nice deposit in the karma bank. second guy probably won't get a second dance (and probably will get a nice little earful during the current one.)

[quixotedlm]

"Why can't you do this? All the other girls I've tried it with got it."

Oh, I generally say the opposite, like "Oh well, it hasn't worked with anyone else either, so I must work on it a bit more", or if it works, then something like "Wow! It hasn't worked with anyone else until now. I can always trust you to follow my experiments perfectly. Thank you!". This is so good for karma :)

[irMax SALSA]

I've seen scuffles and arguments erupt as a result of the LEADER correcting the FOLLOWER. Especially when she is experienced.

I think it's really cool if the Ladies just politely walk away, it makes for a bigger embarrassment.

[DCR]

If your not in a clasroom situation there is no need to be correcting anyone. If your going to try to make the dance like your performing or in a contest then your defeating the purpose of the dance.

[chandra]

RandomMysh on this board suggested saying politely "And what studio do you teach at?" When I told her my horror story of being taught during a jack and Jill (swing) COMPETITION!

[nikita]

Recently I read a funny story about this:
Cuban guy goes out and meets his Cuban friend with his girl-friend(non-cuban). He asks her to dance. Apparently the girl enjoyed a lot. Cose when she came back to her boy-friend, she said to him:
" Did you see this? Like this you should dance with me!:raisebro: "
...now she's his ex :p .

[waltzgirl]

If I'm feeling really mean and think the guy deserves it (and I want to make sure he never asks me again!), I'll stop smiling, stop giving him any connection, and just go through the motions. Like, "you think I'm a bad dancer, I'll show you bad!" Really, I've only done this once.

It used to really bother me when someone corrected me on the floor, but at this point, it's so clear to me that those who do this are almost always not good dancers/leaders and are insecure, so I just let it roll off me and feel sorry for them.

[DCR]

If I'm feeling really mean and think the guy deserves it (and I want to make sure he never asks me again!), I'll stop smiling, stop giving him any connection, and just go through the motions. Like, "you think I'm a bad dancer, I'll show you bad!" Really, I've only done this once.

It used to really bother me when someone corrected me on the floor, but at this point, it's so clear to me that those who do this are almost always not good dancers/leaders and are insecure, so I just let it roll off me and feel sorry for them.


http://salserosweb.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/coolio.gif

[sweavo]

I just wanna rant, and see what others have to say.

Hope you feel better after that rant!

I don't think there's single answer for you, yeah, some leaders are insecure buffoons who try to force their badly-understood ideas of how it all works onto their followers. Some followers back-lead through whole songs and silently get onto all the leaders' "Do Not Dance" lists... Many followers "dance up" by asking leaders above their level in the hope of getting tips or learning new moves; or in the deluded belief that they're better than they actually are.

Sometimes a small crit from a leader is a gentle suggestion that you should take on board, since it will enhance the enjoyment of everyone who dances with you in future. Sometimes the leader has cocked up in front of someone he's trying to impress and he's laying the blame on you.

It sounds from your post as if you are maybe trying to anticipate the lead a bit. This is very common when a teacher does not emphasise how the lead and follow works. In the style I dance, the follower only makes a cup or a hook with her hands and the leader gets to choose whether to let go or not. The reasoning is that only the leader knows what the move is going to be and whether or not the hands must be separated for that move ... lots of moves can start off the same way but then take a different variation so if you leave it up to the leader you can follow moves you have never actually learned in class!

Of course, all this assumes the leader has a clue :-)

I used to like getting crits from a follower as for me it was all about the follower's experience, however occasionally it was put in a clumsy way and I took offense. Similarly, I've had followers actively ask for tips, followers glady accept tips, followers get offended when I hinted something went wrong, and girls who insisted on drilling a move some more until they "got" it :-)

So yeah, I think I wrote all of that and said more or less nothing! Except I guess: It's up to you whether you choose to accept a criticism and change your dancing, or just decide not to dance with that guy again! Only you can judge whether the advice was useful or was just bullying.

[JackedSalseroNY]

Girls do the same thing. There are certain girls I dance with that I know are at a higher level and I listen to their advice, but if somebody is not on my level and I know the advice they give is bs or even if it isn't bs if they do it too much then no matter how nice they are I can't dance with them. I'm turned off by people who teach during a dance BIG TIME.

[sara1011]

Similarly, I've had followers actively ask for tips, followers glady accept tips, followers get offended when I hinted something went wrong, and girls who insisted on drilling a move some more until they "got" it :-)
I do something similar with one particular leader. I've been learning on 2 more on a social level than on a classroom level (actually, I took two on 2 classes nearly a year ago, and stopped because...well, because). If a song comes on that's heavy mambo, I turn to my friend and jokingly ask, "Care to torture me through this song?" Partly because it takes the edge off (for me, at least, because I don't want to be that salsera that takes the dance so seriously) and partly because I am just learning. I will say that 90% of the time, he will oblige and dance with me. Other times when a song comes on, he'll look at me and hold up his index and middle fingers to ask if I want to try on 2.

If, for whatever reason, during the dance I slip back to on 1, rather than chastise me and say, "You're doing it wrong! You're on 1," he'll (wordlessly) go into the basic to get me back on track. Once I'm doing the on 2 basic, he continues with the dance. Never has he done this with a frown.

That's why I've always felt comfortable asking him to "torture me."

[sweavo]

Other times when a song comes on, he'll look at me and hold up his index and middle fingers to ask if I want to try on 2.

(visualises the hand signal) are you SURE that's what he's trying to convey? :-)

[africana]

Hope you feel better after that rant!

I don't think there's single answer for you, yeah, some leaders are insecure buffoons who try to force their badly-understood ideas of how it all works onto their followers. Some followers back-lead through whole songs and silently get onto all the leaders' "Do Not Dance" lists... Many followers "dance up" by asking leaders above their level in the hope of getting tips or learning new moves; or in the deluded belief that they're better than they actually are.

Sometimes a small crit from a leader is a gentle suggestion that you should take on board, since it will enhance the enjoyment of everyone who dances with you in future. Sometimes the leader has cocked up in front of someone he's trying to impress and he's laying the blame on you.

It sounds from your post as if you are maybe trying to anticipate the lead a bit. This is very common when a teacher does not emphasise how the lead and follow works. In the style I dance, the follower only makes a cup or a hook with her hands and the leader gets to choose whether to let go or not. The reasoning is that only the leader knows what the move is going to be and whether or not the hands must be separated for that move ... lots of moves can start off the same way but then take a different variation so if you leave it up to the leader you can follow moves you have never actually learned in class!

Of course, all this assumes the leader has a clue :-)

I used to like getting crits from a follower as for me it was all about the follower's experience, however occasionally it was put in a clumsy way and I took offense. Similarly, I've had followers actively ask for tips, followers glady accept tips, followers get offended when I hinted something went wrong, and girls who insisted on drilling a move some more until they "got" it :-)

So yeah, I think I wrote all of that and said more or less nothing! Except I guess: It's up to you whether you choose to accept a criticism and change your dancing, or just decide not to dance with that guy again! Only you can judge whether the advice was useful or was just bullying. IMO, this is the best post on this thread because it is balanced. There are always many sides to every problem :cool:

[africana]

oops (could the DF "gods" delete this? thanks)

[quixotedlm]

Since this is a post on giving/accepting criticisms, I want to know how I would criticize a classmate who is, (perhaps incorrectly) in an intermediate class, for
i. not keeping the beat when doing spins, or trying to do multiple spins when only 1 spin was lead
ii. for holding my fingers so tight that I've been hurting from a sprain for the last couple of days.
iii. for self-leading dips when i didnt' expect it.
iv. for not spinning in place and travelling in random directions when spinning (even if it is only 2 turns)
v. [on1 salsa] for not waiting on 4 to feel the lead and instead just do what the original momentum in beats 1,2,3 lead her to believe (thus plouging thru me every time i try to do a copa).

Unfortunately, I'm referring to 5 or more different followers each with her own mistakes. These mistakes are common at beginner-intermediate levels. These people are hard to ignore in a small dance community, esp. if they are also your classmates in salsa classes (thus not dancing with them isn't an option. esp. if the girl asks me... we guys just never learn to reject a dance), and at this level, any criticism - however minor, tends to be a blow to their ego.

i can endure bad dancing, but i'm pissed that my little finger is actually hurting as i type this line... so what should i do? telling the instructor isn't a good option because these girls dont have a personal relationship with the instructor... i can either tell (one of them) that i'm being hurt, can i?

[sweavo]

not keeping the beat when doing spins, or trying to do multiple spins when only 1 spin was lead
I'll often say "oo! an extra for free!" if a girl takes more spins than I led. If she then looks like she wants to correct her mistake I might explain and show her a double and a single. Or you could ask her whether your lead was too hard, and if she says no, tell her you were only leading a single!

for holding my fingers so tight that I've been hurting from a sprain for the last couple of days.
I'll say "don't grab!" if a follower does that. If she doesn't get the message I will repeat and explain that it hurts. If she's still doing it, I won't lead much on her, and if she back leads, I'll either suffer in silence or just leave her. Threat of injury trumps threat of being a bit rude every time.

for self-leading dips when i didnt' expect it.
"don't do that! you'll end up on the floor with a cracked head and no-one will ask me to dance ever again!"

for not spinning in place and travelling in random directions when spinning (even if it is only 2 turns)
grin and bear it, put on do not ask list.

[on1 salsa] for not waiting on 4 to feel the lead and instead just do what the original momentum in beats 1,2,3 lead her to believe (thus plouging thru me every time i try to do a copa).
tell her "relax! we've got loads of time!"

esp. if the girl asks me... we guys just never learn to reject a dance
I would actually say "ok, but you must be gentle! don't go pulling my fingers off this time!" keep smiling throughout but as I say, physical safety beats politeness every time.

[azzey]

Since this is a post on giving/accepting criticisms, I want to know how I would criticize a classmate who is, (perhaps incorrectly) in an intermediate class..


Don't criticise verbally, learn to be a better leader. You'll get more respect that way.

Bare in mind that Intermediate classes are for Beginners (but not absolute beginners), Improvers and Emerging Intermediates. Once *you* are actually at Intermediate level you will only need the class for practice (re-learning things you've already learned) and will be doing the Advanced classes to learn more.


i. not keeping the beat when doing spins, or trying to do multiple spins when only 1 spin was lead


The follower is following your hand when doing spins and when spinning she will not know where she is, therefore it's down to you to keep the beat for her in each rotation above her head. If she's in sync with your hand then she's on beat. If not you'll lose connection from each other. Do not speed up to keep up with her hand. If she's too slow then accept her limitations and work with them.

Bring her hand down before the end of the first spin, this is the signal to stop. If she tries to do a second you will have to let go to avoid an accident or you will end up in a hammerlock. she will know that she did too many spins and usually appologise. You don't need to say anything except "that's ok, let's try again".


ii. for holding my fingers so tight that I've been hurting from a sprain for the last couple of days.


Say OW! Relax or remove your fingers each time she does this. Ask her politely not to hold onto your fingers but instead make a hook that you hold onto, that way you can remove your hand when you want to.


iii. for self-leading dips when i didnt' expect it.


Hmm difficult one this as even some upper-intermediate dancers have this tendency. Learn safety grips for how to support a lady properly when you/they dip and try to have a very light open connection with them so that they get the idea that if they do anything they are on their own in space.. of course always catch them if they do a self-dip then hold it for longer than is necessary perhaps with a couple of fake stumbles forward and a 'ooh ah my back'.


iv. for not spinning in place and travelling in random directions when spinning (even if it is only 2 turns)


Stay exactly where you are and do not follow the girl. when she stops a metre away from you and your arms are extended to full length wait for her to come back to you. Smile and try again.


v. [on1 salsa] for not waiting on 4 to feel the lead and instead just do what the original momentum in beats 1,2,3 lead her to believe (thus plouging thru me every time i try to do a copa).


If it's a single handed copa, then put your other hand on her shoulder to stop her from moving on 3 (try to use as little force as is necessary to achieve the desired effect) then lead her in the direction you want on 4.

If it's a double handed copa then you have more control and can use both arms to apply tension which will allow you to stop her from moving on 3 and move her on 4.

If it's a single turn/spin then block her turn by putting the finger of your other hand into the inside of her elbow and releasing it just before you lead her to turn.


Unfortunately, I'm referring to 5 or more different followers each with her own mistakes. These mistakes are common at beginner-intermediate levels.


Learn to compensate for each individuals mistakes without compromising your own technique.


i can endure bad dancing, but i'm pissed that my little finger is actually hurting as i type this line... so what should i do?


If you get hurt say OW and learn to avoid it.

[quixotedlm]

sweawo/azzey - i do know how to deal with each of the situations by adapting myself (except when she is hurting my fingers and i can't make her let go of the vice-like grip). My lead is generally correct but I do tend to dance with several followers who are at an lower level than I am (eg, I go early to classes and drop by the intermediate classes if they are missing a few leads, just to help out). I can also make the experience fun for both of us (more so for her than me) in spite of the above said deficiences.

This ironically only encourages them to come back to dance with me, and even make them comfortable so they can ask me to dance instead of waiting to be asked. This is a great thing in building a network, never going without a dance, being known as an all round desirable person to dance with, and being comfortable around the few followers who are showing all signs of greatness to come...

The flip side is that evasive action and adaptation does not provide them with the negative reinformcement needed to recognize and correct their mistakes. My question is this - how do I provide that reinforcement (perhaps in the form of 'teaching') to help them (or at least those who seem to be serious about learning) and to help me (either avoid such dancers who cause me anguish, or to make the ecosystem better by helping the dancers improve) ?

[azzey]

The flip side is that evasive action and adaptation does not provide them with the negative reinformcement needed to recognize and correct their mistakes. My question is this - how do I provide that reinforcement (perhaps in the form of 'teaching') to help them (or at least those who seem to be serious about learning) and to help me (either avoid such dancers who cause me anguish, or to make the ecosystem better by helping the dancers improve) ?

If you are truely applying these tips to their full extent and even putting the dance into slow motion or stopping what you are leading the fraction of a second you feel she is not following you, then you are providing the best source of negative feedback possible.

I used to use this method to 'teach' non-dancers to dance Salsa without saying a word. From knowing nothing to an early-intermediate level on the dance floor while having fun.

If you start trying to teach verbally on the dance floor you will either find the follower getting the wrong idea or wondering who the hell you are to try to teach her as you are not the teacher.

If a follower asks you to teach her then take it off the floor where you can explain in detail. However, be aware if you cannot teach non-verbally I doubt you are at the level where you *should* be teaching verbally. There's a lot of difference between knowing how to do a move and knowing how to teach leading and following. I usually suggest we 'practice' a move in several variations and then if she asks you can give her a few tips.

[thespina13]

I think the responses that azzey gave you are amply adequate in that regard. All those corrective signals aren't just for you. they're for her. In my case, after receiving leader responses like all those mentioned above, I learn. I adapt. it's a slow process when you're learning things like this on the social dance floor, because we followers have to learn from many different leaders, but if you are consistent with these learners, they'll adapt slowly and become better. Most will. In a year, compare these dancers to how they were dancing before. See, the ones who really want to learn will heed all your signals, especially when they're patient, polite and good-humoured. They'll remember them too and try to improve their skills. The ones who don't want to learn wouldn't learn even if you twisted their arms or shackled them to a wall and force-fed them a manual. Keep being adaptable without compromising your own good form, and those beginners will slowly but surely rise to your level. And appreciatively so.

[quixotedlm]

If you are truely applying these tips to their full extent and even putting the dance into slow motion or stopping what you are leading the fraction of a second you feel she is not following you, then you are providing the best source of negative feedback possible.

it's easy to do this, and i do - but only when dancing with a reasonably good follower who makes occasional misakes. this technique only serves to make the whole dance feel like a stop-go-stop-stop-go session with chronic offenders. so in the interest of keeping awkwardness to low levels, I would cheat, skip a beat or just use a bit more power to keep things in order.

If a follower asks you to teach her then take it off the floor where you can explain in detail. However, be aware if you cannot teach non-verbally I doubt you are at the level where you *should* be teaching verbally. There's a lot of difference between knowing how to do a move and knowing how to teach leading and following. I usually suggest we 'practice' a move in several variations and then if she asks you can give her a few tips.

I understand (and mostly agree with) this. There are things that can't be taught non-verbally, and there are people who can't be taught at all because they are dunces. But you are evading my question. :)

Answer me this using any one of the scenarios I listed before - how would I critizie appropriately on the floor? It seems that you are, by not answering it, implying that there is no circumstance under which criticisms or 'teaching' is allowed or would be considered appropriate. right?

[thespina13]

Approproate criticism belongs in the classroom. I can't think of a single scenario like what you listed as being undeserving of correction in practice time. I was in a group class on Saturday and I had a very lovely lead flat out tell me what to do with my hands while he was doing something, to help me with my following during spins and getting lead out of them. He kept it up until we had to switch partners, and i was thankful for it.

At the club, don't criticize. Plain and simple. Unless there's pain involved, or a really REALLY bad experience to be had. Once I had a lead ask me how he was doing. I asked him to not spin me so much next time. That's it. There was another guy (the dunce who threw me into a quad...), who I flat-out had to stop and restart with, because I couldn't handle the painful disregard for the beat. It didn't deter him. I think because I did it with a smile and a touch of class. That's all. No tricks or scripts. Leave criticism out o your social dancing unless you need it to save your body or your mind. and in those cases just smile and be very considerate, brief and polite.

[africana]

that's where knowing the person is important, so that you know HOW to broach sensitive topics like criticism. Specifically, how important are they to you, to your dancing, what's their level rlelative to yours, what result do you desire from the criticism, are they hurting you, will your input be helpful to them in general, or just for you in one move? Those are some questions to answer for each situation. You can't really to do everything on the internet lol

wait...maybe you can. just send them an email.

Hello,
You suck. Please stop asking me to dance. I hurt.
Yours sincerely,
Quix

:lol:

[thespina13]

LMFAO nice one!

[waltzgirl]

(visualises the hand signal) are you SURE that's what he's trying to convey? :-)


Sweavo, it doesn't mean that in the US!

[waltzgirl]

Quix (may I call you Quix?), as a follower, I'd say, verbal correction on the floor is best avoided. Azzey's advice on physical "corrections" will give the necessary feedback to your followers, and will be received much better. Except if you are being hurt. Say that right away. If you say it nicely, they probably won't mind. They've all probably been hurt on the dance floor, so they know what it's like.

Besides, verbal correction on the floor is really pointless. If she could do it right, she would. If she can't, she won't learn it in one go, just because you've said something.

What should you do about beginners who spin badly? First of all, be grateful you don't have to spin! Learning to spin is hard and can be scary. They need to do it badly a bunch of times before they can do it well. If they are giving you the "death grip" during a spin, they may actually not be aware they are doing it. It might just be an instinctive reaction to being nervous and concentrating really hard on the spin.

If someone is taking classes and seems serious about improving her dancing, the best thing you can do is be patient. Your reward will come when she becomes a good dancer and wants to dance with you all the time, partly because she remembers how kind you were when she was a beginner.

If someone isn't working on their dancing and has a ton of bad habits, I think you just have to do the best you can, or turn down a dance sometimes and sit out.

Of course, there is always the all-purpose remedy for followers who make mistakes: lead only the patterns she is comfortable with and does reasonably well.

[SPratt74]

Quix (may I call you Quix?), as a follower, I'd say, verbal correction on the floor is best avoided. Azzey's advice on physical "corrections" will give the necessary feedback to your followers, and will be received much better. Except if you are being hurt. Say that right away. If you say it nicely, they probably won't mind. They've all probably been hurt on the dance floor, so they know what it's like.

Besides, verbal correction on the floor is really pointless. If she could do it right, she would. If she can't, she won't learn it in one go, just because you've said something.

What should you do about beginners who spin badly? First of all, be grateful you don't have to spin! Learning to spin is hard and can be scary. They need to do it badly a bunch of times before they can do it well. If they are giving you the "death grip" during a spin, they may actually not be aware they are doing it. It might just be an instinctive reaction to being nervous and concentrating really hard on the spin.

If someone is taking classes and seems serious about improving her dancing, the best thing you can do is be patient. Your reward will come when she becomes a good dancer and wants to dance with you all the time, partly because she remembers how kind you were when she was a beginner.

If someone isn't working on their dancing and has a ton of bad habits, I think you just have to do the best you can, or turn down a dance sometimes and sit out.

Of course, there is always the all-purpose remedy for followers who make mistakes: lead only the patterns she is comfortable with and does reasonably well.

That's some really great advice! My question is this. I have been having difficulty in my lessons with leaders that don't lead well. I've been working on technical issues with my instructor privately, and it frustrates me now to work with new beginners in group lessons, because I really want to get the technical part down. I do have a partner, but we switch around though, and dance with everyone at the group lessons. Problem is that I was getting so frustrated last night, because I can't work on the technical issues unless I have my partner or an instructor.

But would it be rude to just dance with my partner during these lessons? I mean we have married couples that don't dance with anyone else etc., and I don't want to be like that at our parties, but lessons are different I think. I was thinking about asking him this tomorrow night, and I know he will, because he wants to get the technical parts down too now. And again it's hard to work on the technical parts when you don't have leaders that take dance seriously during group lessons (which is of course to be expected), but I'd hate to give up the group lessons, because they are cheaper than privates and I learn during those times too!

Oh and the thing is that I only want to do this with the dances that I am working on technically during my lessons. I'm still learning the steps for some of the others, so I'd be willing to dance with anyone with those types of group lessons. I just you know want to become a pro in certain areas like WCS, and my instructor knows this, and watches me during our group lesson on those nights, and I can't practice right if I have a new beginner. The thing is that I remember when I was new, and I was grateful to have anyone dance with me. So, it's hard for me to make this choice if I were to make it, but yet... it's also my money not theirs.

But do you all know what I mean though?

[quixotedlm]

Approproate criticism belongs in the classroom. I can't think of a single scenario like what you listed as being undeserving of correction in practice time. .....
.... Leave criticism out o your social dancing unless you need it to save your body or your mind. and in those cases just smile and be very considerate, brief and polite.


My hand-pain incident came out of a classroom, actually. To be honest, imparting criticism in the classroom feels as hard as it does on the social scene.

[sara1011]

(visualises the hand signal) are you SURE that's what he's trying to convey? :-)
Ha!

[quixotedlm]

Quix (may I call you Quix?),

You're welcome :)

[SalsaManiac]

Argh, I am recently guilty of "correcting/teaching" the sister of a friend .. I felt so bad later on (still remember what it was like being a beginner) that I asked the friend to apologize to her sister on my behalf. I was having a totally off night ... should have started out the dance low key and then ramped up like I normally do in trying to guage my partner's level.

--T

[waltzgirl]

That's some really great advice!

Oh and the thing is that I only want to do this with the dances that I am working on technically during my lessons. I'm still learning the steps for some of the others, so I'd be willing to dance with anyone with those types of group lessons. I just you know want to become a pro in certain areas like WCS, and my instructor knows this, and watches me during our group lesson on those nights, and I can't practice right if I have a new beginner. The thing is that I remember when I was new, and I was grateful to have anyone dance with me. So, it's hard for me to make this choice if I were to make it, but yet... it's also my money not theirs.

But do you all know what I mean though?

Thanks! I don't know if you're going to like this advice as well! :)

IME, once you get to a certain level in your dancing, group classes are really only useful for learning new patterns. Unless your studio has technique classes or advanced classes that really are advanced.

Personally, I don't like it when a couple refuses to rotate during class (even if they are married!) I know some couples feel they have good reasons not to rotate, but it seems a bit unfriendly to me. And the beginners will realize that you aren't rotating because you don't want to dance with them.

For that reason, I don't take group classes anymore (and yes, I do miss the camaraderie). But when I'm social dancing with a beginner and being waltzed around the room in a continuous series of progressive basics, I use the dance to focus on tiny points of technique that I usually don't have time in lessons to focus on, like making sure my foot is fully pointed on back steps. Stuff that doesn't get in the leader's way or confuse him. Maybe you can do that kind of thing?

[thespina13]

My hand-pain incident came out of a classroom, actually. To be honest, imparting criticism in the classroom feels as hard as it does on the social scene.


yikes... sorry babe. (May I call you babe? :p)

[waltzgirl]

That's some really great advice!

Oh and the thing is that I only want to do this with the dances that I am working on technically during my lessons. I'm still learning the steps for some of the others, so I'd be willing to dance with anyone with those types of group lessons. I just you know want to become a pro in certain areas like WCS, and my instructor knows this, and watches me during our group lesson on those nights, and I can't practice right if I have a new beginner. The thing is that I remember when I was new, and I was grateful to have anyone dance with me. So, it's hard for me to make this choice if I were to make it, but yet... it's also my money not theirs.

But do you all know what I mean though?

Thanks! I don't know if you're going to like this advice as well! :)

IME, once you get to a certain level in your dancing, group classes are really only useful for learning new patterns. Unless your studio has technique classes or advanced classes that really are advanced.

Personally, I don't like it when a couple refuses to rotate during class (even if they are married!) I know some couples feel they have good reasons not to rotate, but it seems a bit unfriendly to me. And the beginners will realize that you aren't rotating because you don't want to dance with them.

For that reason, I don't take group classes anymore (and yes, I do miss the camaraderie). But when I'm social dancing with a beginner and being waltzed around the room in a continuous series of progressive basics, I use the dance to focus on tiny points of technique that I usually don't have time in lessons to focus on, like making sure my foot is fully pointed on back steps. Stuff that doesn't get in the leader's way or confuse him. Maybe you can do that kind of thing?

[SPratt74]

Thanks! I don't know if you're going to like this advice as well! :)

IME, once you get to a certain level in your dancing, group classes are really only useful for learning new patterns. Unless your studio has technique classes or advanced classes that really are advanced.

Personally, I don't like it when a couple refuses to rotate during class (even if they are married!) I know some couples feel they have good reasons not to rotate, but it seems a bit unfriendly to me. And the beginners will realize that you aren't rotating because you don't want to dance with them.

For that reason, I don't take group classes anymore (and yes, I do miss the camaraderie). But when I'm social dancing with a beginner and being waltzed around the room in a continuous series of progressive basics, I use the dance to focus on tiny points of technique that I usually don't have time in lessons to focus on, like making sure my foot is fully pointed on back steps. Stuff that doesn't get in the leader's way or confuse him. Maybe you can do that kind of thing?

Lol! Don't worry! I appreciate any kind of dancing advice!!!

Well, see those were my thoughts last night too! And this is why it's hard for me!!! I don't like coming across as mean etc. But again, it's like this is my money, so I do have to decide what's best for me lol!

I do like learning the new patterns, and at first when I started the technical training with my instructor, I enjoyed learning them with everyone. But it did get frustrating last night, because I kept thinking you should be doing this or that with your hands and feet lol! But most of them don't know what to do with either!!! My instructor's fiancee said that we need to teach more of that and we do!!! She agreed with me that it's important to learn that, so you don't end up hurting anyone, because you can if you pull their arms the wrong way etc. Well, you know about that stuff lol.

But see again, it's like now that I want to become pro, I don't want to be hurt by a new beginner. One smart thing that our director does (also another instructor of mine) is that he'll put the advanced dancers with each other, and the beginner's will rotate by themselves, but not everyone does this. I absolutely love that idea though, and he does too, because it helps him teach whom really all needs to be taught. You know like if he teaches a basic, he'll know that the advanced dancers will know the steps and work on their posture etc., while the others he'll work on their steps.

[quixotedlm]

yikes... sorry babe. (May I call you babe? :p)

Ingles no know. Wat mean u babe? ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babe_(movie)

[sweavo]

Ingles no know. Wat mean u babe? ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babe_(movie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babe_%28movie))

That'll do, pig!

(quote from the movie, in case you're confused)

[Twilight_Elena]

If that man is a teacher of mine, I listen very carefully. If it's a friend of mine of a higher level and he has some small comment to make (not a huge explanation) then I listen and try to do what he suggested. I will note this, however: those who are truly advanced NEVER comment or try to teach. The ones that do are (to my experience) snobbish beginners/intermediates who know countless steps and have no technique or leading skills. I recently said a few well chosen words to one who kept on doing fancy moves with awful technique and then tried to correct me - and he does this every time we dance! So I got fed up and told him that I couldn't follow what he was doing because his hands were so darn tight. He said that they weren't, I said that they were. He seemed ticked off, we both tried to keep on dancing and smiling, and he hasn't danced with me since.
I dance mainly ballroom, and I'm a couple of months away from teaching. They know that and they still think that what they're doing is right and what I'm doing is wrong. I'm not saying that I'm an authority, but if I were in their shoes I'd stop to think that it's possible I'm the one doing something wrong. :rolleyes:

T_E

[Sabor]

i might comment .. but its not often.. if i do, its because for her/his good and most likely i know they will take it in the spirit it was given.. but it will always limitted to stuff like containing motion to a smaller space.. arm tension and direction of motion.. ie. things related to style of dancing that we are doing and the crowd factor so that the dance flows better/smoother and they dont bump in people around..

[azzey]

They know that and they still think that what they're doing is right and what I'm doing is wrong. I'm not saying that I'm an authority, but if I were in their shoes I'd stop to think that it's possible I'm the one doing something wrong. :rolleyes:
T_E

The problem is that the very people who are oblivious to their own dancing are usually the people with the most problems and they think they are doing everything right. These are often the same people who will not accept criticism well. When these people dance with their regular partners they will over time get used to each other, such that when they dance with someone with good technique it will actually feel WRONG.

[azzey]

it's easy to do this, and i do - but only when dancing with a reasonably good follower who makes occasional misakes.


If you apply these tips to bad followers as well you will find much more benefit. If I'm dancing with a good follower these tips are mostly unecessary.


this technique only serves to make the whole dance feel like a stop-go-stop-stop-go session with chronic offenders.


Once you get really practiced it is possible to keep the dance seemless AND cover up their mistakes while applying these tips and have the follower still enjoy the dance.

When I said stop - I meant you don't actually stop dancing in order to stop the particular lead/follow you were both half way through when it went wrong. An example of this might be when the follower has her arm blocking a particular move like a cross body and you just take her into something else instead.



I understand (and mostly agree with) this. There are things that can't be taught non-verbally, and there are people who can't be taught at all because they are dunces. But you are evading my question. :)

Answer me this using any one of the scenarios I listed before - how would I critizie appropriately on the floor? It seems that you are, by not answering it, implying that there is no circumstance under which criticisms or 'teaching' is allowed or would be considered appropriate. right?


Indeed the are lots of things that are better taught verbally, in my experience once you start teaching you stop dancing.

I answered your question in the first line: "Don't criticise verbally, learn to be a better leader. You'll get more respect that way." and what the resulting effect of trying to teach on the dance floor might be.

If you're going to teach teach otherwise dance. In my opinion non-verbal is the only in-between which works - where she is dancing and you are dancing (and teaching at the same time).

[sweavo]

I think there is space for educating a follower - and learning from a follower - both physically and verbally. Different people have different learning styles and respond better to different types of input.

But nobody likes to be invalidated by being given a whole torrent of unexpected criticism, so keep it to one or two tips (probably one) each person per night.

Also remember your crits are only your opinion and you might find it's you not your partner who needs to adjust. Among my favourite followers I have to adjust my lead strength quite a lot because some prefer to be manhandled and some float like clouds. I wouldn't say any of them were wrong - but if one of them asked me what I would change about their dancing, I might suggest a change in their tension that moved them more to the middle of the scale.

[SPratt74]

The problem is that the very people who are oblivious to their own dancing are usually the people with the most problems and they think they are doing everything right. These are often the same people who will not accept criticism well. When these people dance with their regular partners they will over time get used to each other, such that when they dance with someone with good technique it will actually feel WRONG.

Interesting. That's why I think like at parties and other events, you should dance with other leaders or followers. Sometimes it's a good idea anyways in case someone comes up with a new mistake that you and your partner haven't caught yet. ;)

[alemana]

ayup. muscle memory is agnostic; it doesn't judge.

[azzey]

I think there is space for educating a follower - and learning from a follower - both physically and verbally. Different people have different learning styles and respond better to different types of input.

But nobody likes to be invalidated by being given a whole torrent of unexpected criticism, so keep it to one or two tips (probably one) each person per night.


Ran out of time during lunch hour, but what I wanted to say was..

The only situation where in my experience verbal teaching/critiqueing while dancing is acceptable is when a dance parter (usually a friend) has specifically asked you to evaluate/teach/critique her.

She must first respect your leading/teaching and knowledge of the subject before being able to accept feedback from you. Usually this is better done after the dance. Even then it has to be handled sensitively. Keep it to one or two points of technique a session.

This changes the dance into a form of mini-private lesson where you need to be able to simultaneously: dance and lead well, remember points of feedback for later instruction, be able to teach technique clearly and concisely without offending or confusing her. Then be able to answer her questions about why when she dances with someone else it works the old way..

Challenging huh?

Much easier to teach a class of beginners by the demonstrate, copy and hints method.

[azzey]

Lol! Don't worry! I appreciate any kind of dancing advice!!!

But see again, it's like now that I want to become pro, I don't want to be hurt by a new beginner. One smart thing that our director does (also another instructor of mine) is that he'll put the advanced dancers with each other, and the beginner's will rotate by themselves, but not everyone does this. I absolutely love that idea though, and he does too, because it helps him teach whom really all needs to be taught. You know like if he teaches a basic, he'll know that the advanced dancers will know the steps and work on their posture etc., while the others he'll work on their steps.

Some suggestions for you and your partner to learn more quickly:

- Both of you taking private lessons with your instructor, so he/she can correct both your technique and work on more advanced technique.

- Practicing together what you learned in your private lessons at home or on a different night.

- Both of you dancing with as many different partners as possible (of any level) during class and socials to improve your leading/following technique. During these dances you can focus on a single specific technique you were taught in your private and that you need to work on. Dancing basics does not mean you are not improving.

- Dancing regularly with your partner.
- Dancing reguarly with other partners of your level or higher.

Dancing with just your partner will make you very good at dancing with *just* him/her and very bad at dancing with anyone else. Depends what your goals are.

[azzey]

Quix (may I call you Quix?), as a follower, I'd say, verbal correction on the floor is best avoided. Azzey's advice on physical "corrections" will give the necessary feedback to your followers, and will be received much better.

Quix - Even physical "corrections" on the dance floor can be misinterpreted or frustrating depending on the partners attitude to the dance and you.

It's always a bit of trial and error involved to find the right dancing style that works best with her. She may just be there for fun. What she thinks of as fun varies from follower to follower. Some followers love being put into new really hard fast combinations that are above their level - go figure! Others like a relaxing dance at or below their level.

[quixotedlm]

Quix - Even physical "corrections" on the dance floor can be misinterpreted or frustrating depending on the partners attitude to the dance and you.

It's always a bit of trial and error involved to find the right dancing style that works best with her. She may just be there for fun. What she thinks of as fun varies from follower to follower. Some followers love being put into new really hard fast combinations that are above their level - go figure! Others like a relaxing dance at or below their level.


Oh yeah, I've learned that on the floor :) I was dancing with an intermediate follower who still hasn't learned to respond to really minimal leads and needs a bit more of force to get her to do the right actions. She is strong, so I suppose it is okay for her. But it is bad for improving leaders.. So one day, I figured that I'll just treat her like she was advacned and won't apply _any_ force, and just lead her with two finger and minimal touch. Of course she was all confused, but immediately told me that she couldn't feel me at all, and asked me if it was some form of teaching exercise I was playing with her. She said all this in very good humor and didn't show any offense at all. But I figured that if she perceives it as an attempt to teach her, I shouldn't do it then and there. I made up a lie that I was too tired and didn't realize what I was doing, and went back to leading her with a bit more application of strength.

The learning then was that non-verbal attempts to teach, even if it was for my own good (I didn't want to get bad habits from leading her), can not always be successfully done on the dance floor.

[la morena]

[QUOTE=sweavo]

-spinning off in a different direction

grin and bear it, put on do not ask list.

QUOTE]

Harsh!! I do this (not intentionally). Maybe a little advice to the follower would be better than blacklisting!

[SPratt74]

Some suggestions for you and your partner to learn more quickly:

- Both of you taking private lessons with your instructor, so he/she can correct both your technique and work on more advanced technique.

- Practicing together what you learned in your private lessons at home or on a different night.


- Dancing regularly with your partner.
- Dancing reguarly with other partners of your level or higher.

Dancing with just your partner will make you very good at dancing with *just* him/her and very bad at dancing with anyone else. Depends what your goals are.

Great advice! :p

But this one you stated, "- Both of you dancing with as many different partners as possible (of any level) during class and socials to improve your leading/following technique. During these dances you can focus on a single specific technique you were taught in your private and that you need to work on. Dancing basics does not mean you are not improving."

I can't practice my techniques with new beginners that don't know how to lead. I tried that this week, and it didn't work. And I'm really trying to get out of my bad habits like posture and technical stuff, and I can't do so with new beginners.

But I absolutely love your other advice that you gave me!!! I haven't thought of some of those things!!! ;)

[sweavo]

She must first respect your leading/teaching and knowledge of the subject before being able to accept feedback from you. Usually this is better done after the dance. Even then it has to be handled sensitively. Keep it to one or two points of technique a session.

Thanks for the lesson. Do I need to respect you before I accept this criticism in a public forum?

This changes the dance into a form of mini-private lesson where you need to be able to simultaneously: dance and lead well, remember points of feedback for later instruction, be able to teach technique clearly and concisely without offending or confusing her. Then be able to answer her questions about why when she dances with someone else it works the old way..

Challenging huh

No.

1) you underestimate me
2) I only ever choose one point. If I can't remember it, then it can't have been that bad and I don't mention it.

Much easier to teach a class of beginners by the demonstrate, copy and hints method.

what are these hints? Non-verbal?

(feeling bolshy today, can you tell?)

[sweavo]

grin and bear it, put on do not ask list.



Harsh!! I do this (not intentionally). Maybe a little advice to the follower would be better than blacklisting!

Heheh, it's not that harsh, she's not on the "do not dance" list, only the "do not ask" list :-)

[azzey]

Thanks for the lesson. Do I need to respect you before I accept this criticism in a public forum?


Actually it was meant as an addition to your text, not a criticism. I agree with what you said. The remarks were not meant for you but for Quix, but if you want to pay me for the lesson that's ok. LOL.


what are these hints? Non-verbal?

(feeling bolshy today, can you tell?)

I was being ironic and forgot to put in a smilie for it (dry british humour). I'm referring to crap so-called teaching (demonstrate and hint, because they can't explain) methods that some instructors use.

[Ismile2you]

Sometimes it is hard to not give any advice..
I mean... Some man get to enthousastic and dance over everything, which makes it almost inpossible to follow, or just nog fun anymore, because as a follower, you are only correcting and running.. And he as well, he only gets more and more frustrated....

First I let the man do his thing, but at after a while, when I see he is not getting more relaxed, but more streched.. I smile at him and make him start again in the right beat... I think that's a good thing.. I will not start talking with him, but he will know, I don't mind he made a mistake, and he can just relax and start again... Mostly guys like this and dance better after restarting...

But this is only my impression.. So guys.. tell me... Would you mind or like this?

[DanceMentor]

I think I am going to have to correct all of you. :)
(j/k)

Sometimes I cringe when I see someone correcting one of my students, and knowing the advice they are giving more shows that they don't know what they are doing yet, but I have yet to come up with an easy solution.

[kayak]

Sometimes it is hard to not give any advice..
I mean... Some man get to enthousastic and dance over everything, which makes it almost inpossible to follow, or just nog fun anymore, because as a follower, you are only correcting and running.. And he as well, he only gets more and more frustrated....

First I let the man do his thing, but at after a while, when I see he is not getting more relaxed, but more streched.. I smile at him and make him start again in the right beat... I think that's a good thing.. I will not start talking with him, but he will know, I don't mind he made a mistake, and he can just relax and start again... Mostly guys like this and dance better after restarting...

But this is only my impression.. So guys.. tell me... Would you mind or like this?

Someday, I am going to have a perfect night with perfect timing, leads, floor craft etc. Of course, it will be just like Caddy Shack and I'll get hit by lightning leaving the dance. Until then, I don't mind at all a boost.

[Mario B.]

Hello all,

Just want to say that all of these threads R very interesting & I would like 2 THANK most of U 4 concidering 2 attend my social next Saturday night.

PS. I won't say anything about that "ROUGH" dance school in NYC!

Mario B.

[Mario B.]

Ah I almost 4got, 2 all of the feamle dancers on this post... PLEASE SAVE ME A DANCE! THANK U in advance 4 all of your time & PLEASE have a safe jouney to NYC.

[HothouseSalsero]

As a woman, I find it sorta unfortunate that, due to the understanding that the guy always leads, and therefore "knows" what you as a couple are supposed to be doing, that it is then only the men who feel they can make a correction to the woman.

The lead is the expert on what he was trying to lead, but he isn't necessarily the expert on whether he actually led it or not. It's a tricky thing.

As a lead, I think you simply learn more if you take as much responsibility as possible for what your partner actually does as a follower. Maybe I could have given a clearer lead at this or that point. Maybe I thought I was leading my partner into a half turn but somehow it felt like I was leading a complete turn (or whatever--I'm having trouble thinking of specific examples I can describe in words).

Despite that, there are times when I am pretty sure that a follower has made a mistake. I'm not going to pretend I never think that, but I try not to jump to that conclusion, and I personally would almost never make verbal corrections to partners on the dance floor.

I guess the woman can never do so to the guy,

Haha, yeah, I wish. Followers will correct you too, especially in a class setting, or especially if they happen to be instructors (even if you are just dancing with them socially, and they aren't your instructor).

[sweavo]

Haha, yeah, I wish. Followers will correct you too, especially in a class setting, or especially if they happen to be instructors (even if you are just dancing with them socially, and they aren't your instructor).

Heheh, yes. In class you can get terrible back-leaders who don't properly understand following but have got the sequence of moves figured out. I remember I had to do some kind of drop-hand catch, open break behind the back into a broken left thing in one class, and this woman was saying "no, you do this" and I was trying to get her to give me some tension for the open break. With my back to her I was completely dependent on the physical connection to read what she was doing.

You can always ask your follower "was that too strong?" or "that was supposed to be a double, was it too weak?" and start a verbal dialog... but you have to be sincere about it. If you believe you are perfect then that will come across and the dialog won't work.

It's true for followers I think. If it's phrased like a personal preference rather than an absolute criticism: "Be gentle with me! I don't need that much force!" it can be better received.

[alemana]

this weekend at a dancesport event i witnessed something truly amazing - a partnerless pro (leader) correcting, during a general dance which happened to be salsa, another pro with whom he was dancing. this was on the comp floor in front of a large swathe of observing pros and spectators.

both are accomplished pros and very accomplished social dancers - he's one of the best in the city, always out dancing, always rocking everybody's world. and he still couldn't resist the tempatation to teach on the floor. i've seen him make this correction countless times, always with the same move - you'd think he'd get the hint that he's misleading. but no.

the look on *her* face was priceless. major props to her for smiling sweetly and continuing on.

[africana]

You can always ask your follower "was that too strong?" or "that was supposed to be a double, was it too weak?" and start a verbal dialog... but you have to be sincere about it. If you believe you are perfect then that will come across and the dialog won't work.

It's true for followers I think. If it's phrased like a personal preference rather than an absolute criticism: "Be gentle with me! I don't need that much force!" it can be better received. absolutely! i think corrections are almost unavoidable, but they should be considerate, necc & genuine, not shaming, because each dancer really wants to be their best for each partner

[azzey]

I think I am going to have to correct all of you. :)
(j/k)

Sometimes I cringe when I see someone correcting one of my students, and knowing the advice they are giving more shows that they don't know what they are doing yet, but I have yet to come up with an easy solution.

Gag them! hehe.

[Josh]

i've seen him make this correction countless times, always with the same move - you'd think he'd get the hint that he's misleading. but no.

the look on *her* face was priceless. major props to her for smiling sweetly and continuing on.

oye... poor girl. It's embarrassing even to WITNESS a person being corrected on the floor when people are watching. There's no place for it on the floor. And for social dancing, not much room, IMO, for correction OFF the floor. I mean...why? What's the point? That's like telling someone 10 minutes before a big show or competition that they have a flaw in the way they do a particular thing... it does no good, makes a person MORE nervous, and can't easily be corrected in that time frame.

[alemana]

fortunately she'd just danced brilliantly in a high-level competitive environment. i'm sure it bothered me much more than her.

[fallenangel]

I don't know, if anybody shares this. But after my experience- people, which correct:uplaugh: and explain all the time, so that you count the seconds, untill the song is over, are the worst dancers:D . Good dancers don't do this.

Totally agree with u !! A lot of ppl just don't get it, and would still like to give their 2 cents(pennies)hehe! of advice ;P

"Dancing is like having 5 min affair with your partner"

[africana]

Someone gave me some feedback recently that was so done with so much class:
it encouraged, enlightened and inspired me all at the same time! It was such a positive interaction that it didn't occur to me to feel bad or defensive about his input, and now I have an idea of more things I can work on to challenge and push myself

maybe that's why he's such a successful teacher lol

Some things that made it so positive & effective:
-it wasn't done -during- our dancing
-it was based on a relationship
-I respect him as a teacher/dancer
-I was open to recieve

[nikita]

Teaching and correcting belongs into a classroom. It's a thing between teacher and student. IMO.

On the (social) dance floor there are no more rules.
"Just keep the rythm & have fun:banana: !"

No rules- no correcting:tongue:

[africana]

disagree :tongue: