Women with "deathgrips" and/or "arms of steal

[Marvellous]

A couple more:

1) Partners who insist on using a deathgrip, makes it impossible to lead and in some cases, just plain HURTS! :shock: A variation is when the partner gets so stiff and rigid (especially in the arms), makingit impossible to lead.

The above is a quote from Phil Owl. I am interested in this problem/topic, so I started a new thread, since it was on the general peeve thread and I wanted to make sure the topic would get noticed.

I have some observations and questions: First, I am aware that dancing must be difficult for some women, thus, they may need all of there brain power to think about and control their feet, so maybe they cannot pay attention to what they are doing with their hands and arms, BUT.....seriously.....

I have women that come to my lessons or the club that nearly "Darth Vader" my hands to death. Every turn of every kind in the pattern they are gripping my 4 fingers like they want to crush them and/or twist them off. Super-beginners are excusable and I try to set them straight, right in the lesson. I don't know what others think of that, but 1) my teacher is quite vocal in encouraging that. I remember one day he was kind of pissed with some girl who just about broke his thumb, so he turned to the guys and asked whether anybody else didn't have a dislocated thumb from this chick, and a couple guys said, "Oh, yeah." The teacher was like, "well, tell her! I think my teacher has the right idea. If you don't nip this in the bud, you will have scenario two in the future. 2) I get the same kind of girl sometimes and I ask her how long she has been dancing, and she says a year or two years. I am like, blown away! Are we doing her a favor by not telling her and trying to help her??? If I have a habit that is that bad, I certainly want some woman or women to let me know!

ARMS: same thing. Arms of steal can be forgiven in a newbie, but if you are the same after years and years, maybe you should give up and dance solo? I was at a big dance event once there was this woman who seemed intent on eating me alive. I wasn't interested in her, but I could tolerate her aggressive assault. The problem was, she continually asked me to dance. She was impossible to lead! With any kind of CBL turn she just about ripped my arms out and pulled me over; talk about abuse. She attacked me in a restaurant later, so I started talking about dance. I asked her how long she was dancing salsa and she said 10 years!!!! I just about fell off my chair! I thought she was a beginner!

What is the deal with these two habits???

Are some follows simply and utterly incurable for some reason or another?

Is it merely that teachers and leads for months or years have just not had the balls to try to help/correct them?

For me personally, I do not relish pointing such things out to a woman who has been dancing a long time, but if she is a beginner I have NO qualms! I am doing her a favor, because who is ever going to want to dance with her in the future??? Here is one of my "cool" tactics. I explain to woman and demonstrate up to 3 times what she should be doing, rather then crushing my extremities. If she still keeps doing the exact same thing, I say, "Okay, you be the man, and I will be you. Lead me into a simple right turn or CBL with left-inside-turn. I let her lead me twice with proper hand contact, and then ask her if it feels okay. Of course she says "yes". Then we do it again and I use her "Darth Vader" deathgrip and half-torque her fingers off of her hand. Then I ask her whether that felt good. VERY EFFECTIVE! I try to get her to realize that that is what she is doing to a guy for a few minutes at a time. Brutal, but some people don't seem to be able to learn any other way. The teacher tells them ten times per lesson, and leads like myself try to tell them, but to no avail. And if you think about it, it isn't so brutal. I am only crushing her fingers once. She is crushing mine dozens of times, and probably crushing the fingers of the others guys dozens of times.

[redhead]

No excuse for stiff arms, but women's former partnerships might explain it. Some guys have stronger lead - women have to almost match it or get hurt. Other leaders lead softer - followers need to adjust in order to not overpower. Followers generally have flexible arms if they change partners quite often.
There's one girl I see often enough, she looks like a great follower to me. I've heard from many good leads that she's difficult to lead, though. They say she used to be much better a few years ago, but now she dances with her boyfriend 99% of the time. He has a really powerful lead, so she's used to it. They look good together, but have troubles dancing with other people...

[Marvellous]

No excuse for stiff arms, but women's former partnerships might explain it. Some guys have stronger lead - women have to almost match it or get hurt. Other leaders lead softer - followers need to adjust in order to not overpower. Followers generally have flexible arms if they change partners quite often.
There's one girl I see often enough, she looks like a great follower to me. I've heard from many good leads that she's difficult to lead, though. They say she used to be much better a few years ago, but now she dances with her boyfriend 99% of the time. He has a really powerful lead, so she's used to it. They look good together, but have troubles dancing with other people...

Your point is reasonable; however, I believe that the women I am tallking about do not have past "partnerships". Partnerships are very rare where I come from, and those that do exist are usually between to people who are pretty good dancers. The women I am talking about have trouble getting a dance period, never mind a "partner".

[redhead]

I just thought I'de give her a chance in your eyes... :lol: I'm such a sweet person...:kissme: :lol:
I think your way to explain proper following skills to ladies is GREAT, not brutal. Very fair. BUT if she doesn't get it even after that, I'm afraid there's not much more you can do.

[pygmalion]

An approach that sometimes works is to match the other person's heavy grip with a light grip of your own. The heavier they get, the lighter you get.

[Sagitta]

Arms of steel:
The heavier your partner's grip is the lighter you make yours. Okay, so your partner has an even harder time feeling you and makes his grip even heavier. Eventually there is abosultely no connection whatsoever!!

Death grip:
Tough problem to remedy. Want to know what my solution is to doing moves while dancing? I change my grip completely if the situation looks impossible. I will offer one finger or two to grip on which allows moves to be done a lot easier. I also will hold the top of my partner's palms/wrist!! I can lead lots of moves if I have such a hold. I'm sorry, but my wrists are not strong enough to withstand abuse. By the way I've found that this works also for the arms of steel problem. If your partner cannot reciprocate with the correct tension the wrist/on top of palm grip takes some of the responsibility away from the partner and gives you more control.

Another solution to the death grip? Just dance the basics of the basics - nothing that will kill them.

[pygmalion]

Yep. Either there's no connection at all, in bad cases. Or, sometimes, they will unconsciously try to match your lightness. It's been known to happen. Some people just can't be helped, but it's at least worth a try. *shrug* :?

[David]

No excuse for stiff arms, but women's former partnerships might explain it. Some guys have stronger lead - women have to almost match it or get hurt. Other leaders lead softer - followers need to adjust in order to not overpower. Followers generally have flexible arms if they change partners quite often.

Death grip, arms of steel, and throw in a desire to lead themselves. There are a couple of women who I occassionally "dance" with who have this combination. I say "dance" because I genereally refer to those times as a wrestling match rather than a dance.

Every now and then I'll (attempt to) do something unexpected to show them that they're anticipating. Two of my favourites are a move which has a spin in what seems the to be the wrong direction if you're not _following_, and a cross body variation with an 8 count walk in the middle (if there's room). It's interesting to note that the girls who DO follow looove both of these moves, especially the walk one, and those who need to be wrestled dislike both.

There's one girl I see often enough, she looks like a great follower to me. I've heard from many good leads that she's difficult to lead, though. They say she used to be much better a few years ago, but now she dances with her boyfriend 99% of the time. He has a really powerful lead, so she's used to it. They look good together, but have troubles dancing with other people...

I know a girl like that. Looks quite good, but is much harder to dance with now that she spends so much time dancing with this one guy. I see it as a back-slide, a de-skilling of the dancer.

[Sarah]

An approach that sometimes works is to match the other person's heavy grip with a light grip of your own. The heavier they get, the lighter you get.

Yes! There's no way a woman can feel and follow a subtle lead with a mass of tensed up muscle. So -counterintuitively- if you want your partner to relax you have to encourage her to actively seek your lead by making it small and light.

It's true that the arms of steel thing can develop as a defensive reaction to an over strong lead - but getting into an arms race[1] helps noone.

Cheers
Sarah

[1] If you'll all excuse the abysmal pun.

[SwinginAngel]

I have women that come to my lessons or the club that nearly "Darth Vader" my hands to death. Every turn of every kind in the pattern they are gripping my 4 fingers like they want to crush them and/or twist them off. Super-beginners are excusable and I try to set them straight, right in the lesson.

I confess I did the death grip a few times when I was starting out :oops: but luckily my partners told me the first few times I did it and I was able to correct myself before it became a habit. Beginning leaders can do it also. My dad did it to me when he started learning to lead, thus I got to experience both sides of it. In their defense, I am sure they have no clue. I couldn't believe I was hurting my partner when they told me about it because it didn't feel like a strong grip to me but when my dad did it to me I understood. Of course he didn't understand and he refused to believe he was hurting me. :roll:

[redhead]

David, shame on you! Don't trick poor ladies! :lol:
I still believe that followers should almost match leaders' strength, otherwise it may lead to shoulder injuries.

[Marvellous]

An approach that sometimes works is to match the other person's heavy grip with a light grip of your own. The heavier they get, the lighter you get.

Yes! There's no way a woman can feel and follow a subtle lead with a mass of tensed up muscle. So -counterintuitively- if you want your partner to relax you have to encourage her to actively seek your lead by making it small and light.

It's true that the arms of steel thing can develop as a defensive reaction to an over strong lead - but getting into an arms race[1] helps noone.

Cheers
Sarah

I am sorry, but regarding the above, which is the same thing many of you are saying, I know what you are saying, but it is utterly ridiculous. This is what I have tried DOZENS of time, obviously. Forgive me if I am wrong, but it seems to me that many of you are inferring that I respond to these women by trying to rip their arms off or crush the bones in their hands. I do lead them super-lightly, but to no avail. I try to use fingertips only, to escape bone damage, but they will actually grab at my hand to make sure they do as much damage as possible. The example I gave of giving them some of their own medicine, was not a reference to how I lead them. That would be in a lesson where I literally stop practicing our pattern and say, okay, we are going to do something here. These women are a lost cause. As someone said, the cannot feel/recognize anything. They are using a force of 10 and whether the guy uses a force of 6 or 1, it all goes unnoticed by them.

[Sagitta]

Not at all Marvellous!!! Nothing inferred about your leading skills at all!!!! We haven't danced with you so how can we evaluate them? We are all just sharing experiences that we have had, and strategies that we've employed in dealing with them. By doing this sometimes something comes up that we haven't thought about. I know that personally I've become a much better dancer from people sharing their insights.

[redhead]

Who said you have to hurt anyone? :shock:
I don't think I've ever experienced leading by fingertips only. Wonder how it feels.

[Salsero_AT]

Who said you have to hurt anyone? :shock:
I don't think I've ever experienced leading by fingertips only. Wonder how it feels.
I do this quite often if my partner has light arms ... especially in casino where it is the most comfortable way because the hands turn in each other because you do not let them go often when you or your partner or both of you are turning. if you grab the other´s hand it can even hurt.

[Marvellous]

Who said you have to hurt anyone? :shock:
I don't think I've ever experienced leading by fingertips only. Wonder how it feels.
I do this quite often if my partner has light arms ... especially in casino where it is the most comfortable way because the hands turn in each other because you do not let them go often when you or your partner or both of you are turning. if you grab the other´s hand it can even hurt.

Okay, we can all relax. I just write and speak strongly in general. I appreciate the insights, it's just that these women peeve me so much and the idea of leading them more gently is simply a no go in my experience. They are utterly oblivious.....

I don't know who brought up fingertips, me, or someone else. It is certainly not a habit of mine, or a preference, but I do know a woman who is an amazing salsa follow, and she just blows my mind. I can do ANYTHING with her, at any speed with 2-3 fingertips. Her compared to some of the women in my lessons is like comparing a Ferrari to a tank. It must be a character thing, rather than "training" or "teaching" because she comes from "nowhere"(rural Japan) and she is far better as a follow and a dancer period, than any teacher she had access to. Needless to say, if we are at a 4 hour dance, she never gets to sit down!

[Spitfire]

Even among experienced dancers there are those ladies who have arms that are like limbs on an oak tree. What I wonder when they are taking lessons is if their instructors are stressing flexibility or if they have a way of handling this that I'm not familiar with.

I did ask one of the men instructors what's the best way to handle a partner with stiff arms and was informed that the man should be sure that his arms are not tight as well.

[Marvellous]

Even among experienced dancers there are those ladies who have arms that are like limbs on an oak tree. What I wonder when they are taking lessons is if their instructors are stressing flexibility or if they have a way of handling this that I'm not familiar with.

I did ask one of the men instructors what's the best way to handle a partner with stiff arms and was informed that the man should be sure that his arms are not tight as well.

Sorry, but I don't have much respect for that instructor. That's a pretty lame answer if you ask me. The women I have trouble with, so does my instructor. I know because I here him ragging on her. And I know that my instructor know what he's doing; he is not giving them too much stiffness.
Everyone here keeps saying the same thing. The women we are talking about, I think, are unaware of what they are doing. Sure, a women who has some sensitivity to the whole connection thing is going to adjust here stiffness to the lead. However, we are talking about women who have no sensitivity and no awareness of what the lead is offering; arms like oak tress regardless of what the lead is doing.

I suspect the problem is that nobody ever sets them straight. For example, I used to have a lead that was too strong. A couple of women in my lesson ragged on me and I got the hint/message. I didn't like it at the moment, but I thought if she's ragging on me, it must be a problem, and she certainly isn't going to want to dance with me outside of lessons(along with other women) so I better concentrate on changing it. I think I am going to start telling these women the same thing. Maybe I will tell them that it is a problem and tell them that I am doing them a favor by telling them, because nobody is going to be seeking them for dances for the rest of their lives if they don't correct the problem.

[pygmalion]

Hmm. I hope I didn't offend you in any way. The advice to lighten in response to heaviness sounded dumb to me too. But since I have a great coach with years of teaching, performance and competitive experience, I decided to try it any way. I guess I was luckier than you -- my problem partner lightened up, after about eight to ten weeks of consistently applying the advice. But not everyone can be helped the subtle way. So, if you choose to, I guess there's no harm in giving feedback. I don't understand what possible cultural complications there may be, so perhaps someone else from Japan or at least Asia can give us some insight.

In the US, giving unsolicited feedback on the dance floor, is a very touchy thing indeed, so if you were here, I'd say tread carefully. That's not necessarily true everywhere in the world, though. Hmm. I don't know. Then of course there's the option of not dancing with the problem lady, if she's annoying and/or hurting you too much for you to enjoy the dancing. *shrug* Thoughts, anyone?

[Marvellous]

Hmm. I hope I didn't offend you in any way. The advice to lighten in response to heaviness sounded dumb to me too. But since I have a great coach with years of teaching, performance and competitive experience, I decided to try it any way. I guess I was luckier than you -- my problem partner lightened up, after about eight to ten weeks of consistently applying the advice. But not everyone can be helped the subtle way. So, if you choose to, I guess there's no harm in giving feedback. I don't understand what possible cultural complications there may be, so perhaps someone else from Japan or at least Asia can give us some insight.

In the US, giving unsolicited feedback on the dance floor, is a very touchy thing indeed, so if you were here, I'd say tread carefully. That's not necessarily true everywhere in the world, though. Hmm. I don't know. Then of course there's the option of not dancing with the problem lady, if she's annoying and/or hurting you too much for you to enjoy the dancing. *shrug* Thoughts, anyone?

I certainly wouldn't give advice on the dancefloor. I only consider doing it in lessons. Even then, people often don't take it well, but I think it is certainly better to do it in a lesson than on the dancefloor. My teacher actually encourages the men to tell the newer women what they need to be doing. The problem is women that aren't "new". I don't like to give feedback to them, because they don't take it well. I have noticed an interesting dynamic though. People mind less getting advice/feedback from someone that they feel is clearly better than them. Thus, beginner women don't seem to mind at all when I set them straight about what they are doing which is hideously wrong. What is more interesting though, is I have two women in my lesson who used to complain about my strong lead. I have never really wanted to say anything about their dancing, because from their characters I did not think it would be welcome. In fact. once I said something really minor to help one of them and I think she was upset. Interestingly, I have really been improving over the last month or two(I sort of reached another level in my development, seemingly suddenly), and I know that my lead can be really gently and soft if I want it to be(I still have to reserve my Clint Eastwood lead for the women who dance like wild broncos). Anyway, I have noticed that both of these women have changed their attitude toward me significantly. In lessons they actually seem to look to me for approval and solicit my feedback on how well they are pulling off the pattern. This makes me feel very good, because I take it as an indication that they feel I am qualified to know. If I think of myself as a man(lead), I certainly am not going to solicit feedback from some hopeless follow who has a whole list of bad habits, and I am certainly not going to welcome any feedback from her either, because I would see that as farcical. However, I do welcome and do solicit feedback from the really good women in my lesson. So. the bottom line is, I feel good/confident about my development because of this change in the way they seem to look up to me. Does this sound reasonable to anyone?

[SDsalsaguy]

It sounds most reasonable Marvellous. It is basically saying that you welcome feedback from all those qualified to give it, nothing more. Or, alternatively worded, it makes sense to get feedback on your part in relative proportion to how much someone else is doing their part.

As far as the women now seeking your approval in class, definitely take it as the implicit compliment it is.

[salsachinita]

This topic is super relevant to my experience this past weekend. I have been fortunate enough to host a great salsa instructor (gotta be one of the BEST leads I've experienced :D !) from interstate & spent some time getting some private lessons.

I am definetely guilty of not being relaxed enough in the arms :oops: due to past patnerships/conditionings. Up until recently I had been a firm believer in delivering equal pressure in the arms. This theory still has its place, but I now believe there is a fine line between too much and just right.

One of the biggest points I picked up over this weekend was the isolation of arm/finger muscles (still working on it!). The fingers have to be strong & firm, in cupped (not "grip") position (so the lead can be applied effectively) yet the arms have to be 'almost' completely relaxed (except for certain moves) in order to be lead into various positions (generally related to Rueda here).

I find it hard to get the balance just right. If I 'consciously relax', my fingers get too loose. If I strengthen my fingers, the tension builds up in the arms :roll: ! NEED_WORK

Old habits die hard. Having been around for so long also works against me in a sense that hardly anyone would give me any feedbacks :( !

*Mental Note to Self: gotta travel again! Get feedback from ppl who don't know me from a bar of soap :roll: *

[pygmalion]

Come visit me! :D :D I have a guest room with your login name on it! :lol: :D

[salsachinita]

Come visit me! :D :D I have a guest room with your login name on it! :lol: :D

Love ya' :D , Jenn! You have NOOO idea how much I want to visit the States again......! I am hoping (as SD is) to see if anyone would like to hire me as a Patchwork Quilt teacher (as so many of them from US also come here to do workshops!) :wink:

[Marvellous]

This topic is super relevant to my experience this past weekend. I have been fortunate enough to host a great salsa instructor (gotta be one of the BEST leads I've experienced :D !) from interstate & spent some time getting some private lessons.

I am definetely guilty of not being relaxed enough in the arms :oops: due to past patnerships/conditionings. Up until recently I had been a firm believer in delivering equal pressure in the arms. This theory still has its place, but I now believe there is a fine line between too much and just right.

One of the biggest points I picked up over this weekend was the isolation of arm/finger muscles (still working on it!). The fingers have to be strong & firm, in cupped (not "grip") position (so the lead can be applied effectively) yet the arms have to be 'almost' completely relaxed (except for certain moves) in order to be lead into various positions (generally related to Rueda here).

I find it hard to get the balance just right. If I 'consciously relax', my fingers get too loose. If I strengthen my fingers, the tension builds up in the arms :roll: ! NEED_WORK

Old habits die hard. Having been around for so long also works against me in a sense that hardly anyone would give me any feedbacks :( !

*Mental Note to Self: gotta travel again! Get feedback from ppl who don't know me from a bar of soap :roll: *

Since you like travel, you can come and dance with me anytime in Tokyo, OR if you like Hawaii, I will be there for a week in January for "Salsa in Paradise." :wink:

[salsachinita]

Since you like travel, you can come and dance with me anytime in Tokyo, OR if you like Hawaii, I will be there for a week in January for "Salsa in Paradise." :wink:

Love to....! :P But first I need to find a way to breed my piggy banks :roll: :wink:

[SDsalsaguy]

I need to find a way to breed my piggy banks :roll: :wink:
If you figure that one out do please share!!! :notworth:

[salsachinita]

I need to find a way to breed my piggy banks :roll: :wink:
If you figure that one out do please share!!! :notworth:

8) you have my words..... 8)

[Marvellous]

I need to find a way to breed my piggy banks :roll: :wink:
If you figure that one out do please share!!! :notworth:

8) you have my words..... 8)

Have you ever watched "South Park?" The boys managed to get an elephant to breed with a pig, so......maybe something could be done with piggy banks. :)

[SDsalsaguy]

Have you ever watched "South Park?" The boys managed to get an elephant to breed with a pig, so......maybe something could be done with piggy banks. :)
Wow . . . then we might not just have more piggy banks but more bigger ones! Yay! Someone get on this right away please!

[borikensalsero]

Hmmm.. I'm late again...

Well, here is my two cents on this whole deal of arms of steel and death grips... Needless to say that the death grips and arms of steel in trained dancers I've seen in NY are mainly from those who have a dance background mainly in hiphop or modern dance. I guess they are used to strong sudden movements so they unbeknown to their conscious apply the same rules to salsa. It’s like a native Spanish speaker applying the rules of spoken Spanish to English speaking. He doesn't know it but he is doing it.

What I like to do is basically have a "foreplay" session. By the time we are done she is hopefully so consumed by the session that she is willing to be taken over. Her guard is down, so her grip and hands flee their tension.

By "foreplay" I mean, I wait for a slower song, Don't dance a fast song with death grip/steel armed person, you'll be sorry at the end. Then it’s my time to sooth her mind. I dance around her, pick her up gently and walk her around if there is room. I use deep penetrating eyes to tell her I want you, allow yourself to be taken and allow that person to be me. The only snap that I will give is the one used by my head coming around a spin, in hopes to let her know I’m eager to see her again, and will never loose her sight. Hopefully soon she will unconsciously react to my lead and half way through the dance she has noticed how our styles need to become one. When I pick her up again and do a couple of smooth as heck patterns her eyes are so little, her smile so big that there is no tension between my our arms and hands. She will allow me to come in out of her grip without a slight sense of tension. And so on, crapola, it takes a great deal of energy and willingness to do this. I only do it when I’m really in the mood, the song is right, my soul willing to endure the pain of not dancing right of the bat like it wants to, and the girl someone I care to show the other side of dancing.

I must say that when a person has been dancing a certain way for years it takes a very long time to break the bad habit. Even if I have been successful to smooth the girl down for a minute or so of the dance it doesn’t mean that she won’t, through the other half of the dance, gone back to her old ways. However, the seed has been planted. She has hopefully felt something different and will consciously seek it in her next dance.

[Sagitta]

Sounds so goood I almost want to be a follower, and your follower, though I am usually the leader!!! :)

[borikensalsero]

Sounds so goood I almost want to be a follower, and your follower, though I am usually the leader!!! :)

Would we be thought of as tangoish or gayish? I'll take a shot at leading you. I can't follow though, just in case the natural leader in you takes over... :D

[salsachinita]

What I like to do is basically have a "foreplay" session. By the time we are done she is hopefully so consumed by the session that she is willing to be taken over. Her guard is down, so her grip and hands flee their tension.

She has hopefully felt something different and will consciously seek it in her next dance.

:P Oooooohhh...........could I have that dance now pleassssse..........?! :wink:

*why do I have to live soooooo far away from NY....? :roll: *

[borikensalsero]

:P Oooooohhh...........could I have that dance now pleassssse..........?! :wink:

*why do I have to live soooooo far away from NY....? :roll: *

By the looks of it, it seems that perhaps I'm the one who shouldn't be in NY City... I feel like the soar thumb when I go out dancing here.

[Sarah]

:P Oooooohhh...........could I have that dance now pleassssse..........?! :wink:

*why do I have to live soooooo far away from NY....? :roll: *

By the looks of it, it seems that perhaps I'm the one who shouldn't be in NY City... I feel like the soar thumb when I go out dancing here.

It's summer in the southern hemisphere.:D ;) :D
<Hint Hint>

Cheers
Sarah

[borikensalsero]

:P Oooooohhh...........could I have that dance now pleassssse..........?! :wink:

*why do I have to live soooooo far away from NY....? :roll: *

By the looks of it, it seems that perhaps I'm the one who shouldn't be in NY City... I feel like the soar thumb when I go out dancing here.

It's summer in the southern hemisphere.:D ;) :D
<Hint Hint>

Cheers
Sarah


Imma just gonna have to head down south... :D Perhaps I can come up with a business plan to present at work where they can send me around the world to dance. Hmmm, being a computer programmer might make it a lill difficult, but nothing is impossible. :D :D Now, I need an agle :mrgreen:

[SDsalsaguy]

Now, I need an agle :mrgreen:
How's 90 degrees? :wink: :lol:

[borikensalsero]

Now, I need an agle :mrgreen:
How's 90 degrees? :wink: :lol:

I'll use 90... hopefully they won't ask for 180...

[SDsalsaguy]

Now, I need an agle :mrgreen:
How's 90 degrees? :wink: :lol:

I'll use 90... hopefully they won't ask for 180...
Don't sweat it if they do . . . you can just double up on your 90!

P.S. Any chance you'll be taking a really large steamer trunk with you and I can hitch a ride in it? :wink:

[borikensalsero]

Now, I need an agle :mrgreen:
How's 90 degrees? :wink: :lol:

I'll use 90... hopefully they won't ask for 180...
Don't sweat it if they do . . . you can just double up on your 90!

P.S. Any chance you'll be taking a really large steamer trunk with you and I can hitch a ride in it? :wink:

Heck yeah, I'll include it in my business plan with two 90 degree angles, so you can come along.

[SDsalsaguy]

Now, I need an agle :mrgreen:
How's 90 degrees? :wink: :lol:

I'll use 90... hopefully they won't ask for 180...
Don't sweat it if they do . . . you can just double up on your 90!

P.S. Any chance you'll be taking a really large steamer trunk with you and I can hitch a ride in it? :wink:

Heck yeah, I'll include it in my business plan with two 90 degree angles, so you can come along.
Sweet! :D

... get ready down there, boriken and I may be on our way soon! :wink:

[d nice]

David, shame on you! Don't trick poor ladies! :lol:
I still believe that followers should almost match leaders' strength, otherwise it may lead to shoulder injuries.

Actually tense arms increases the risk of rottator cuff injuries. A stiff arm creates a perfect lever out of the arm, and the fulcrum is the shoulder joint.

If a follower wants to protect herself from a rough lead she needs to dance more in the right manner, not more in the wrong manner. Relax the arm as much possible and tighten the pectoral and latisimus muscles. These muscles are were your frame is derived from, the torso muscles that control your shoulder and limit extension, angle, and rotation transfering energy directly to your body rather thabn confining it to your arm.

It is a common mistake on the part of followers to tense the arm, but it makes her harder to lead, bad leaders are actually more likely to increase the amount of force in their leads. Exactly what the follower doesn't want him to do.

[salsachinita]

... get ready down there, boriken and I may be on our way soon! :wink:

Cool 8) ! I'd LOOOVVVE to have both of you down here as my personal guests...! I am a great hostess, you know?

Salsa tour downunder coming up.....! (anyone else in the DF family interested :wink: ?)

*make sure you come to Melbourne.....*

[salsa es mi vida]

I agree with Borikensalsero,i am one of those,but i would say that the strenght is not matched.Why i do it i don't know,all i can say is as if i get a hint from a leader i am about to hurt you,i am not sure of the move that i am doing(the leader,i just follow) or try to :(

[salsa es mi vida]

You Borikensalsero would be defently the one that i seek on the dance floor :).Just hope you would not get tired of me :(

[englezul]

The above is a quote from Phil Owl. I am interested in this problem/topic, so I started a new thread, since it was on the general peeve thread and I wanted to make sure the topic would get noticed.

I have some observations and questions: First, I am aware that dancing must be difficult for some women, thus, they may need all of there brain power to think about and control their feet, so maybe they cannot pay attention to what they are doing with their hands and arms, BUT.....seriously.....

I have women that come to my lessons or the club that nearly "Darth Vader" my hands to death. Every turn of every kind in the pattern they are gripping my 4 fingers like they want to crush them and/or twist them off. Super-beginners are excusable and I try to set them straight, right in the lesson. I don't know what others think of that, but 1) my teacher is quite vocal in encouraging that. I remember one day he was kind of pissed with some girl who just about broke his thumb, so he turned to the guys and asked whether anybody else didn't have a dislocated thumb from this chick, and a couple guys said, "Oh, yeah." The teacher was like, "well, tell her! I think my teacher has the right idea. If you don't nip this in the bud, you will have scenario two in the future. 2) I get the same kind of girl sometimes and I ask her how long she has been dancing, and she says a year or two years. I am like, blown away! Are we doing her a favor by not telling her and trying to help her??? If I have a habit that is that bad, I certainly want some woman or women to let me know!

ARMS: same thing. Arms of steal can be forgiven in a newbie, but if you are the same after years and years, maybe you should give up and dance solo? I was at a big dance event once there was this woman who seemed intent on eating me alive. I wasn't interested in her, but I could tolerate her aggressive assault. The problem was, she continually asked me to dance. She was impossible to lead! With any kind of CBL turn she just about ripped my arms out and pulled me over; talk about abuse. She attacked me in a restaurant later, so I started talking about dance. I asked her how long she was dancing salsa and she said 10 years!!!! I just about fell off my chair! I thought she was a beginner!

What is the deal with these two habits???

Are some follows simply and utterly incurable for some reason or another?

Is it merely that teachers and leads for months or years have just not had the balls to try to help/correct them?

For me personally, I do not relish pointing such things out to a woman who has been dancing a long time, but if she is a beginner I have NO qualms! I am doing her a favor, because who is ever going to want to dance with her in the future??? Here is one of my "cool" tactics. I explain to woman and demonstrate up to 3 times what she should be doing, rather then crushing my extremities. If she still keeps doing the exact same thing, I say, "Okay, you be the man, and I will be you. Lead me into a simple right turn or CBL with left-inside-turn. I let her lead me twice with proper hand contact, and then ask her if it feels okay. Of course she says "yes". Then we do it again and I use her "Darth Vader" deathgrip and half-torque her fingers off of her hand. Then I ask her whether that felt good. VERY EFFECTIVE! I try to get her to realize that that is what she is doing to a guy for a few minutes at a time. Brutal, but some people don't seem to be able to learn any other way. The teacher tells them ten times per lesson, and leads like myself try to tell them, but to no avail. And if you think about it, it isn't so brutal. I am only crushing her fingers once. She is crushing mine dozens of times, and probably crushing the fingers of the others guys dozens of times.


If you want to work your biceps try dancing in Montreal... It's a matter of both instruction and personal standards. When I have a partner like this I demote them to a beginner. I'll do simple turns and cross body leads the whole song. I remember one time it took a lot of effort to get to dance with this woman who was seemingly an extraordinary dancer. I literally had to wait a couple of songs and move around strategically to make sure I get to her before someone else. Then I had the work out of my life trying to lead her. When the song ended I was panting. Thanks but no thanks.

[Wolfgang]

Death Grips, Noodle Arms, Wrestling, Constsnt Complaining, Elobows-to-the-Nose and other dancing maladies have one simple solution:
Don't ask that one again.
Unless she's really gorgeous, which they usually aren't.