Social obligations...

[SDsalsaguy]

What do you do when there are people you feel socially obligated to dance with on a regular, ongoing basis, but do not enjoy dancing with? I am not talking about the occasional social dance but rather, people whom you see on a weekly basis and who, socially, you like and are friendly with. Perhaps more importantly, they think they are good dancers. Given the ego investment and involvement in learning to dance, I don't want to offend people I genuinely like but, at the same time, I do not enjoy the dancing, even sometimes ending up with a sore shoulder. How do (or would) you deal with such a situation?

[DanceMentor]

I can certainly identify.
Normally, my strategy is to cut back on the number of times I dance with this person in hopes they will grow acustomed to dancing with me less. In this way the person will see that you are still interested in dancing with them, but not as much as before. Hopefully, this person has lots of other dance partners, but, either way, that's not my problem. Finally, I wouldn't want someone to dance with me if they didn't enjoy it.

I still feel there will always be some awkward situations sometimes. I think we should be thoughtful of others above all else. :?

[Phil Owl]

I found myself at times having to point out things, but I also make sure I do it in a gentle, loving and encouraging way, in such a manner that person will actually want to continue and learn more. All told, I'll dance with nearly ANYONE (my limits come however with snobs and people who get very reckless and don't givea hoot about the well-being of others around them) However, in the case of someone like The Talon Woman (Seinfeld-like enough for ya?) mentioned in point #1, I will be very reticent to dance with a person who gets so pointedly reckless like that. Otherwise, my dance floor experiences, all told have been nothing short of great fun!

The things I encounter most are:

1) The infamous Deathgrip (and once I point it out, some are amazed that all you need is a very light grip for dancing). One instance though, I danced EC Swing with this one woman who had nails more like talons on a Hawk or a Great Horned Owl That HURT!!!!! :shock:

2) Women that have a tendency to take HUGE steps into the next state or lean back so far that even a big guy like myself gets thrown off balance.

3) What I call Stiff Arm Syndrome. Makes it nearly impossible for a guy to lead. I just do my best to warmly encourage the woman to relax her arms and not worry about "Getting It All Right" so much as having fun with what they know at that point in time. The "technique" and finer points will come.

Again, the main thing is that dancing is supposed to be FUN, not defusing a bomb!

[salsarhythms]

Although I agree to some extent to some of the posts, I must share something with you... There was this lady (salsa dancer) who really could not dance well at all. Instead of being helped, she was just being turned down more and more often...

One day an older gentleman danced with her and very discreetly gave her some pointers. She actually began to take classes from him and today, about 10 years later, she's one of the top salsa dance instructors...

I'm sure some of you know who I'm talking about, but if not, it's Edie, the Dance Freak.

The point here is, if you like the person, I would without question tell them (very nicely and discreetly). I think you'd do them more of a dis-service by not approaching the issue. Especially if this is someone you like...

[MissAlyssa]

I come across this on a regular basis. Either I'm out dancing and someone sees how I can dance and wants to dance with me to make themselves look better/feel better (etcetc) or someone that can really dance (sometimes better than me) wants to "practice" their moves with me to show off to others. Sorry if I offended anyone but that's how it seems. I just gradually turn down dancing offers. I just have to learn not to feel guilty for doing it :?

[Vince A]

Miss Alyssa,
I agree with most of what you say and why you say it, however I too, get asked to dance on a regular basis. It is usually from women who see me dance and think that they are at my level or higher. I never turn down a dance!

You see, I also compete and do a lot of "Jack and Jills." When I get asked to dance, I make it my J & J practice time. I usually stick to mostly basics and easy, but very followable (word???) move.

As PhilOwl said above, I too have come across the infamous death grips, but I learned to change my lead to the lightest one I can muster. Also, the nails! Yea right, ouch. Here, I've learned to lead either by the back of their hand or their wrist - after I tell them their nails are too sharp!

Huge steps are manageable, but coaster steps, as in not anchoring in WCS and coming out on count 1 before the lead for 1 is given. A leader leterally has to change his/or her move most of the time because of this. This is the biggest problem I have seen.

And the stiff or heavy arm is much worse than a follower that breaks frame. I can counter a broken frame, but a follower with bigger biceps than me and tries to prove it, makes for a long dance.

[msc]

SDSalsa-
Brother, do I know the feeling. If they are causing problems for your shoulder, maybe you can drop any arm-body connection you have, and just give her a real loose lead. Now generally I tend to try to stay strong in case the follow needs a little balance help after a turn or what not, but if they're putting a lot of weight on your shoulder, and it's uncomfortable, do what you gotta do. If they don't hold their center together, for goodness sake don't put them in any type of "dip" position.
Now my question for you ... when you go out to a Salsa club, and other male dancers start stepping on your follow, what do you do? Generally I'll cross body lead her to the opposite side, but then my new side clears out and they start encroaching on her new side. I still haven't figured out how to handle that problem.

[SDsalsaguy]

Now my question for you ... when you go out to a Salsa club, and other male dancers start stepping on your follow, what do you do? Generally I'll cross body lead her to the opposite side, but then my new side clears out and they start encroaching on her new side. I still haven't figured out how to handle that problem.

I actually dance a very circular style, so am constantly readjusting my "alignments." I find this gives me a fair amount of ability to respond to the movement of couples around me in a very dynamic manner. This being said, there are – of course – occasions when my partner's and my space really does get encroached on. Then the issue shifts to why our dance space is being intruded on. If it is a beginner who lacks a higher level of control then, by and large, keeping my back to them and readjusting my partner’s position relative to the couples dancing on her “side” usually works. If, on the other hand, the guilty culprits are dancers who have the ability and should know better (although this usually means it is that leaders fault), then, in the interest of protecting my partner I will use a “defensive elbow” – and I do NOT mean that I elbow anyone! What I do mean is that when we are in frame I will raise my elbows slightly – I find that this simultaneously expands the width of our framed boundary and, literally, puts a harder edge on the edges of our space. Before it gets to this extreme, however, I will often move my partner out of the way and take a “hit” or two on my back, so that my partner is protected and the other dancer(s) know they’re dancing too on top of us before resorting to such measures.

Hope that’s of some help…

[SDsalsaguy]

I just gradually turn down dancing offers. I just have to learn not to feel guilty for doing it :?

Overall, and in general, there's nothing wrong with this -- my original post, however, stemmed from the specific situation of how to deal with other dancers who are part of my same social group and I am friendly with. I have, however, been away for almost 2 months, so maybe things will be different when I make it back out to my salsa haunts this Friday…

Also, as an aside, I find that, as a man, I am less inclined to turn anyone down the first time they ask me. I remember how hard it was to work up the nerve to ask someone to dance when I was starting out and the least I can do to repay the generous women who helped me along my way is to pass along their generosity…

[SDsalsaguy]

And the stiff or heavy arm is much worse than a follower that breaks frame. I can counter a broken frame, but a follower with bigger biceps than me and tries to prove it, makes for a long dance.

True enough...but the true bane of my dancing existence is NO resistance whatsoever...the infamous "spaghetti arms" – yuck!

[Vince A]

SDsalsaguy,

Spaghetti arms . . . I forgot about this!

I've actually only danced with one follower who had this . . . I lightened up my lead to the point where if you had stuck a piece of paper between my finger tips and hers, the paper would have fallen out. She told me later that I was hard to follow because she couldn't feel my lead. I told her I had lightened up in hope of her giving some frame, or resistance. She said she thought she was, and "no one had complained before this." I said I wasn't complaining . . . we danced again, she tried giving resistance. Voila!

I don't correct on the floor. I just dance. I wouldn't have said anything, but she opened the door.

We now dance very well together, in fact, have competed together.

Funny how some things happen!

[msc]

Sd, Vince-
Have you ever had to dance with follows that were just total, err, jerks? The type that criticizes you after every dance, even if she herself is lacking in a great many ways, and may not know what the heck she's talking about? There's this one woman, she's so bad that I can't lead her, I mean she lacks everthing, posture, center tone, flexibility, power,rhythm, timing, you name it, she ain't got it. So I let her backlead and stumble through the patterns, I compliment her at the end of the pattern, and I'm rewarded with bad advice delivered in a snide manner.

Mind you, I've seen guys who were jerks too, there's a fellow who my old partner used to call "Evil Man" who would stop during the middle of a dance, even a traveling dance, to lecture the follow on things he really knows nothing about. It seemed kind of funny to me at the time ... I guess kharma is catching up to me.

[Vince A]

msc,
Oh yes . . I know one of those, and to make matters worse, she comes to the dances that are held at the studio where I take my privates.

She has extremely heavy arms, can't or won't follow, can't spot during multiple turns (gets dizzy quickly), says "I'm sorry" every other beat . . . and would you believe . . . she is an intermediate dancer??? Most of the real problem is "attitude." She "thinks" she is great. I don't know how to handle her??? Other followers - any ideas???

However, just recently, I pulled a good one. I also follow (some dances), and follow well. She (again) "thinks" that she is a great lead, and is always asking other ladies to dance. This time I asked her to dance a WCS, and revenge was my motive. I did everything to her that she had done to me just 10 minutes prior. I know . . . I'm an a**hole!

After that dance, she told me that I needed to work on my following. I told her I would, and that all of us, sometime or another, need to work on things - all the while, evilly staring daggers into her eyes. Think she got the hint???

Nah!!!

[SDsalsaguy]

Sd, Vince-
Have you ever had to dance with follows that were just total, err, jerks? The type that criticizes you after every dance, even if she herself is lacking in a great many ways, and may not know what the heck she's talking about?

msc,

Haven't had this happen in a while...but wanted to point out that very good dancers can be jerks too. I can think of one woman here who I asked to dance a while back, who is a better dancer then I am. What I do have going for me, however, is that I am a good leader. Well, she "decided" what things she wanted to follow and would also back lead herself into others. I think the very fact that this wasn't a result of her inability made it all the more offensive. To my way of thinking, if she didn't want to dance with me she didn't have to, but, once she had said yes, she should have been dancing with me, i.e. letting me lead (assuming that I was actually doing so).

Or several years back, when I was still learning, there was one woman who was in the tier above me, but never accepted a dance (and I'm talking about over a year+). Well, the next 4th of July we were both at the same club quite early in the evening and, for some reason, almost no guys who weren't rank beginners showed up for hours...I have to admit I got a slightly sadistic thrill from watching her just stew on the side of the floor as I danced with all of the other women of her ability and above who were there, as well as several women below her ability, and even sat out an occasional song without even approaching her. Just my way of saying that there is karma in the universe?

Umm Vince, don't you think that was a bit overkill? Why not just not dance with her anymore?

[Vince A]

SD,

Yes, you are right - that is overkill. However, "just don't dance with her" is another issue.

You see, I have personal vow of not refusing a dance to anyone - unless of course I've already changed shoes, and am on the way out the door, etc.

Most everyone talks about this woman - laughing and chuckling behind her back. I say "most' because I won't be a part of that, so I will dance with her. The revenge was wrong, but at the time, it just felt like the right thing to do. And I won't aplogize because she was unaware of any perceived wrong doing.

[msc]

Vince,
Well, more or less I let her lead the pattern, as there was no other way to survive the routine. Thankfully, I may not have to dance with that evil woman again ... although I feel for her poor husband. He should be nominated for sainthood, or at least martyrdom, IMO.

SD- Leading is tricky, especially when you start dealing with those really, really advanced follows. The problem is, beginning/intermediate follows often don't know how to follow or they just memorize patterns. Intermediate/advanced follows want every pattern led, more or less. But then the truly advanced want to style every now and then, and it's your job to wait for them to finish, preferably while striking an appropriate complementary pose. The problem is, most follows fall in category one or two, so when you finally dance with one that can really, really move, it's hard to switch gears. I'm getting better at it, but it's not easy.

[SDsalsaguy]

SD- Leading is tricky, especially when you start dealing with those really, really advanced follows. The problem is, beginning/intermediate follows often don't know how to follow or they just memorize patterns. Intermediate/advanced follows want every pattern led, more or less. But then the truly advanced want to style every now and then, and it's your job to wait for them to finish, preferably while striking an appropriate complementary pose. The problem is, most follows fall in category one or two, so when you finally dance with one that can really, really move, it's hard to switch gears. I'm getting better at it, but it's not easy.

I know what you're talking about msn, but personally I feel that it is actually incumbent upon the follower not to sacrifice following for the sake of styling. To me the best women are the one’s who add styling – not use it as a substitute. That is its own issue, but in the case I was mentioning it wasn’t a styling issue – she was out rightly ignoring leads for some patterns and self-leading others.

[msc]

Fair enough, SDsalsa, sounds like she was a total, uh, jerk. However, your recollection has unfortunately sent me tumbling down repressed memory lane, I have a similar story.

At the time, I was fairly intermediate, I had performed a Salsa routine with an instructor at a local studio, but I only new 10-20 moves, only a few of which had any sophistication. I went to the local salsa club, and worked up the nerve to ask one of the more "advanced" dancers to dance. So we walked out onto the floor, and after about 1 minute, she dropped the connection and walked off the floor, returning to her drink and her two friends. Needless to say, it took me a while to go out to another Salsa club after that.

[SDsalsaguy]

Exactly my point msc! More advanced dancers can -- and unfortunately often are – bigger jerks then less capable dancers. Assuming that (a) you don’t have problems with personal hygiene, (b) you are not being inappropriate, and (c) you are not making the dance physically uncomfortable/dangerous, there is absolutely no call for the type of behavior you describe.

For some reason your story makes me recall a different episode/lesson – many times critique and criticism are nothing more then a defensive mechanism for one’s own insecurities. Unfortunately one of my first salsa partners and I both learned this too late – we had both made the other question our own abilities and competence out of insecurities about ourselves. If we had even been mature and wise enough to talk everything out we could (and would) have avoided a lot of hurt feelings and shaken confidence levels on both sides.

—Jonathan

[MissAlyssa]

talk about rude msc. I really dislike people like that. :roll:

[MissAlyssa]

when do you consider it rude to turn someone down? if you are tired, thirsty, just don't want to dance with them, feel like you are better...etc etc..

[pygmalion]

I try never to turn a guy down, if I can. Even when I'm tired.

Only exceptions -- when I've danced with the guy before and he's a jerk, or when there's a dance I can't do. I'm sure I'll think of at least one more exception, and edit this later. :D

[pygmalion]

Oh yeah.

I knew I'd think of something else.

If I'm turning everybody down. Once, I went to a party physically ill, to support a friend who was giving it. That night, I turned everybody down, because I just didn't feel up to dancing.

The thing with turning guys down is that, for many of them, it's hard to ask in the first place. And I'm guessing for most of them, it's hard to get "rejected" in public.

So I try not to "reject" them unless I have to.

[pygmalion]

Why do I keep thinking up exceptions to my own darn post? :)

There were two times I broke my own rule.

1. When a guy who asked me had bad BO.
2. When a guy who asked me had an extremely jealous wife. I'm not getting in the middle of that.

[Vince A]

Why do I keep thinking up exceptions to my own darn post? :)

There were two times I broke my own rule.

1. When a guy who asked me had bad BO.
2. When a guy who asked me had an extremely jealous wife. I'm not getting in the middle of that.
I don't blame you, but of course . . . neither 1 nor 2 needed to be at or near the dance floor!

[pygmalion]

I went to the local salsa club, and worked up the nerve to ask one of the more "advanced" dancers to dance. So we walked out onto the floor, and after about 1 minute, she dropped the connection and walked off the floor, returning to her drink and her two friends. Needless to say, it took me a while to go out to another Salsa club after that.

I can relate to this msc. I had a similar experience once. Talk about humiliating! And bad manners too.

I guess the question here is, where do you draw the line, when you're dancing with an unfamiliar partner? How much feedback can you give without being rude, but still respect your right to have a good time?

[pygmalion]

SD- Leading is tricky, especially when you start dealing with those really, really advanced follows. The problem is, beginning/intermediate follows often don't know how to follow or they just memorize patterns. Intermediate/advanced follows want every pattern led, more or less. But then the truly advanced want to style every now and then, and it's your job to wait for them to finish, preferably while striking an appropriate complementary pose. The problem is, most follows fall in category one or two, so when you finally dance with one that can really, really move, it's hard to switch gears. I'm getting better at it, but it's not easy.

Another good point, msc. Same thing here. Advanced leads are capable of leading every move, even subdividing moves, and they expect you to wait for every signal. Inexperienced leads, well, they're inexperienced, and may lead little if anything effectively. They give a lot of arm leads, visual leads, and late leads. Oh yeah, and I forgot, sometimes verbal leads! :lol: So the following strategy is completely different for the two types of leads.

It's the switching gears that's killing me. Thoughts, anyone?

[brujo]

True enough...but the true bane of my dancing existence is NO resistance whatsoever...the infamous "spaghetti arms" – yuck!

Are you kidding? these are the best to do the fancy cuban style pretzel moves with! Use your head / shoulders and torso to connect with her elbows and all the sudden spaghetti arms are a dream...

[pygmalion]

I'm no teacher or super-technical dance person (yet), but I think it's possible both of you guys may be right with respect to the arm thing.

I've spent the last year getting yelled at about my arms which still tend to go stiff, especially under pressure, and here's what I've come up with.

Depending on the dance move and/or dance I'm doing, different amounts of arm resistance may be needed. The goal is to use the minimum resistance necessary in any given situation, but not less than the minimum, and allow the arms to be the messenger for what the body is trying to convey. The connection is body to body, through the arms.

I try to think of it as my giving up my arms to the connection between partners. My arms don't belong to me. They belong to the connection, and they're flexible enough to move as needed. Make sense?

[AquaDancer]

I'm relativelly new to the ballroom scene so I don't have many stories or too much ballroom knowledge but honestly how do you turn a guy down without letting him down...

You first must understand that for some crazy reason I just don't like swing.

This guy kinda just pulled me out on the dance floor to do a swing. I told him that I don't know much swing, nor do I want to but that's beside the poing. I know some ECS and WCS but this guy was crazy. He's like "ok you stand over there and I'll stand over here and ... He basically was trying to choreograph something right there. The whole time I'm just like this is terrible. So, half way through the song I thanked him and apologized for not knowing whatever it was he was trying to get me to do and we left the floor.

I still feel so guilty for leaving like that but honestly he was CRAZY!

[pygmalion]

Oh aquadancer. I feel your pain.

There are so many ways we dancers and wannabe dancers make each other miserable. :cry:


From what you describe, the guy who asked you to swing, overrode your objection, then tried to make you learn choreography on the fly, was RUDE! He was in the wrong, not you.

Overall, though, turning guys down is a touchy thing. Those egos, you know. I never turn a guy down unless I have to, then I pretty much grin and bear it, unless he's getting too intimate or is drunk. It's only three minutes, after all.

But, If you prefer a more assertive approach, I suggest coming up with a few humorous lines, and using them. I use this strategy all the time when a guy is leading badly, or I'm following badly. A little laugh, (in general, not at him) a little apology, and/or a little joke go a long way.

In your situation, how about, "Wow. We're really not together tonight, are we? (insert non-threatening laugh here :) ) Why don't we take a break, and try it again later?" Key here -- never blame the guy. And never laugh at him.

Try it. This approach works for me. Maybe it will work for you too.

Oh, and by the way, welcome, welcome, welcome to the forums. It's so good to see you posting. Lots of folks post once, then disappear forever. Good to have you! :D

Jenn

[pygmalion]

True enough...but the true bane of my dancing existence is NO resistance whatsoever...the infamous "spaghetti arms" – yuck!

Are you kidding? these are the best to do the fancy cuban style pretzel moves with! Use your head / shoulders and torso to connect with her elbows and all the sudden spaghetti arms are a dream...

My coach and I talked about this at my lesson today, and came up with the conclusion that what you really want is al dente cooked spaghetti arms! :lol:

Not brittle, like uncooked spaghetti. Not floppy, like well-done spaghetti. A little firm, but still flexible, like al dente spaghetti. Think about it. Pretty profound, not? :lol:

[SDsalsaguy]

A workable ingredient...but also keep in mind that this thread is in the ballroom forum and, contrary to much common misconception, there are differences in leading and following between different dance forms. Certainly all leading and following have more in common then they have between them, but that doesn't negate real and significant variances as well.

[pygmalion]

Absolutely. The secret is to find a way to give the right amount of resistance, per move, per dance. And that varies.

[MissAlyssa]

Why do I keep thinking up exceptions to my own darn post? :)

There were two times I broke my own rule.

1. When a guy who asked me had bad BO.
2. When a guy who asked me had an extremely jealous wife. I'm not getting in the middle of that.

reason #6582 pygmalion is awesome.

[Vince A]

I'll drink to that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[MissAlyssa]

*cheers*

[pygmalion]

Back to the topic, folks! :tongue: :lol:

What are some diplomatic ways you handle obnoxious, intrusive or clueless people on the dancefloor?

[DanceMentor]

No matter how well you try to come up with a code that treats everyone fairly, there is always a black sheep in every crowd (no offense, Black Sheep). Sometimes the best policy is to continue to deny them in hopes that they might learn, especially after blunt honesty has failed (ex. "I think you REALLY need to bring mints with you to the dances" or "it's no fun dancing when you keep running me into people").

[Vin]

I guess the question here is, where do you draw the line, when you're dancing with an unfamiliar partner? How much feedback can you give without being rude, but still respect your right to have a good time?
I think a good way(if you really want to help this person) would be to stay quiet during the first dance, then afterwards make a couple of comments and ask for another dance. During the second dance you can start to point out specific things.
Usually if I am dancing with a partner who has wanted to dance with me a for a bit of time, I don't take criticism too harshly. I try and use this technique with the women I dance with as well.

[pygmalion]

That sounds like a reasonable approach, Vin. The other thing I sometimes do is try to give feedback nonverbally. No crossed eyes, or anything. Just, for example, do my part correctly, to counter their mistakes. A lot of times, people will adjust and do things correctly without my ever having to make a verbal criticism.

[pygmalion]

Does anybody else have advice on how to handle awkward situations and obnoxious people on the dance floor?

[SwinginBoo]

This guy kinda just pulled me out on the dance floor to do a swing. I told him that I don't know much swing, nor do I want to but that's beside the poing. I know some ECS and WCS but this guy was crazy. He's like "ok you stand over there and I'll stand over here and ... He basically was trying to choreograph something right there. The whole time I'm just like this is terrible. So, half way through the song I thanked him and apologized for not knowing whatever it was he was trying to get me to do and we left the floor.

I still feel so guilty for leaving like that but honestly he was CRAZY!

LOL. I Know that guy!!! You aren't from RI by any chance?

It was when I was first starting out dancing. He asked me to dance and i said I know a little ECS. All of a sudden he started dancing in Circles around me. I swear this is the truth, he just kept going in circles the whole song. It was the most hilarious thing ever! After the dance my friend asks me "so did you know that, THAT is how swing is done?" It was so funny. :lol:

[SwinginBoo]

I don't correct on the floor. I just dance. I wouldn't have said anything, but she opened the door.

We now dance very well together, in fact, have competed together.

Funny how some things happen!

Vince, this is my rule of thumb as well. No one likes to be corrected on the dance floor. Social dancing is a time for enjoyment. If, however, the person I am dancing with asks for some instruction then by all means I give it. If it is someone I know well and am teaching in general then I will help them out between songs.

[Vince A]

I found this . . . hope it helps . . . it's very long!

On Etiquette When Social Dancing
Dancing was born in a noble and elegant attitude. When a man escorts the lady to the floor for a dance, she should be on his right side. Not only is this the "place of honor", but there is also the symbolism going back many centuries, which implies that the man is offering his fighting arm in service to his lady, and by placing a hand on his arm she is accepting him as her champion. For everyday modern ballroom etiquette, the woman precedes the man to the floor, no contact is required. Once on the dance floor, the man takes a position and extends his left hand to his partner in invitation (palm vertical, towards her), she takes the last two or three steps towards him and takes his hand and then comes into his arms (Exception: Viennese Waltz. Right hand, half turn, curtsy.) The "lady being on his right because his sword is on his left" is just another urban myth. No officer and/or gentleman would wear his weapons at a ball. The man's job is to show off the lady and let her have fun.
If you are interrupting a conversation to ask someone to dance, you should at least apologize to both people for interrupting the conversation. Unfortunately, even this simple courtesy can't be found in many dancers.

A general rule is that one should always say yes (once per evening at least) when one is asked to dance (this is true whether a leader asks a follower or a follower asks a leader.) Exception: if one has reason to believe that person would hurt you or if one is in an unusually fragile state due to injury recovery. If you find yourself in a painful situation, don't be afraid to stop and say something like "I am sorry but some of your moves are aggravating a past injury and so I will have to sit the rest of this dance out." Nobody should, out of politeness, risk injury. If a man leads you badly - especially when he tries to do something that endangers or hurts you - you can:

1) Subtly refuse to follow... don't pull away, just backlead or do something very different from what he's expecting.

2) Boldly refuse to follow... let go! Become physically detached from him and tell him (out loud) that it hurt!

Smart guys will at least realize that they've done something wrong and will get the idea after this happens once or twice Dumb or uncaring guys aren't going to get the idea, but you'll know to stay away from them in the future. Don't feel that you have to get through the dance with them.

What are the consequences of saying yes and do you accept those? I have danced with a few ladies who said yes and then intentionally showed little or no interest in dancing or were rude in other ways. I would have prefered them to have simply said "no thanks" if they were not really interested in dancing with me.

Men and women are both allowed to refuse a dance and "sit one out". If they do, the rules of etiquette say that they must sit it out completely, regardless of who asks them to dance. Exception: a woman (or man!) trying to shake someone who is hitting-on/pawing her should be free to ignore the cad and immediately go find someone else with whom to dance. Why let a bozo spoil a nice evening of dancing?

If you have trouble telling people that you don't wish to dance with them, try this rejection line: "I'd love to, but I think I'm going to mingle--there are many people I haven't danced with yet. Perhaps we can get in another before the end of the evening?" [The second sentence/question is optional]

On rules of etiquette... Social dancing is as friendly a place as you make it, but it's not slavery. You aren't a paid taxi dancer, required to dance with whomever. Sitting out dances, just because someone you don't want to dance with asked you first, is not what you paid your money at the door for. Dance with whom you want to. That said... Remember that you may have to ask (beg, plead) to get the person you turned down (and maybe his friends also) to dance with you in the future. Maybe he won't have fun, will stop dancing, won't tell his friends how much fun it is, all your favorite dance places will go out of business, you won't have anywhere to dance, etc., etc. Aside from good manners, there *are* other reasons to be polite. Many beginners who later become good dancers remember who was courteous and who was not.

Looking at yourself in the mirror is definitely not correct behavior at a social dance. When you practice, especially by yourself, looking in the mirror can be helpful. Looking when you are socially dancing with a partner can be rude.

When you've finished dancing, always thank your partner first, thank them for asking you to dance if that was the case, and mention something that was inspiring if that emotion was tweaked.

[Anonymous]

Help on spaghetti arms:

Ok, so- too loose, and you can't "feel" the leader's directions, right?

And, too "stiff", and- there's not enough room for "play" or "correction?

To translate this to terms I might understand, it's like bit contact with a horse- you Feel the horse's mouth, and he feels your hands- too tight and there's resistance that can cause lack of balance (or pain) in either horse or rider, and too loose, and the horse or human wanders without direction until something abrupt jars one or the other (or both) painfully back INto contact, and tht can be clumsy?

?

[KevinL]

Ponidancer,

I think you've got a good analogy. Enough pressure, but not to much. The problem is learning exactly what the proper level of pressure/ contact/ connection is "correct" for what you are dancing.

Kevin

[SDsalsaguy]

Enough pressure, but not to much. The problem is learning exactly what the proper level of pressure/ contact/ connection is "correct" for what you are dancing.
...and with who! As I'm sure the case is with horses as well, each individual has their own unique responsiveness that ideally, as dance partners (or horse/rider), you learn to use.