How to pivot correctly

[emsanchez]

There must be some hidden tricks that only practice and experience can bring in order to pivot correctly, both lady and man, in waltz, tango, foxtrot.

What are they, please share them?

[fascination]

welcome...and EXCELLENT question

[Twilight_Elena]

The only one I can think of, with my very limited knowledge in Standard/Smooth, is tightly closed thighs.

T_E

[scotttocs]

I'm hardly the best person to answer this, but I'll give it a go..

how to keep your lower body *really* down whil ehte upper body stretches up, so your heels never really drop trhoug the whole thing.

obviously taking turns, but more importantly trusting your partner to do their share and not trying to drive anything on their half. (This one is my downfall)

There is side action in pivots, just make sure you are always in a closed position, including your head!

I'd love to see someone who does them better step in as well!

[fascination]

well...I am no technician...I know nothing but what I have been told and ATTEMPT to execute is to use lots of CBM, keep my center lined up to partner at all times, dance it like a stepping on track then off track imaginary line scenario, never try to step and turn at the same time, and make sure that both feet are always pointing in the same direction....also think as if you were passing someone in a narrow hall re shoulders

[JANATHOME]

Our tricks!!...
Stay on your supporting foot for as long as possible.

We too had trouble with really pulling each other off balance and becoming back weighted. Someone had us start out by just doing a rock step, like you would do in tango to get the feel, balance and responsibility of each half of the partnership, then increased the speed... It was helpful to us. We often use an outside spin as a precede to the pivots, and that seems to set us up well to do the pivots.

[dancesportgirl21]

For ladies, dance your left side (think of your back right under your arm where the man's hand is placed) forward.

[tanya_the_dancer]

I was working on this recently with my teacher and the key part for me was to wait for hime and let him sort of roll across me when we start (and I am sure I am not wording it quite right, but it made a lot of sense on the lesson).

[skwiggy]

The only one I can think of, with my very limited knowledge in Standard/Smooth, is tightly closed thighs.

T_E

This is actually a common misconception. Your thighs should be closed when you pivot forward, but quite open when you pivot back.

Another helpful thing to try is when you're going backwards, make absolutely sure you don't change weight until you feel your partner's heel strike on the forward step. This is a rule for all backwards steps in standard, but often gets overlooked in the pivots because of the panic that "we won't make it".

[JANATHOME]

Yea, I know the panic of "we wont make it" feeling well.. Any thoughts on how to keep the pivot from getting back weighted?

[skwiggy]

Yea, I know the panic of "we wont make it" feeling well.. Any thoughts on how to keep the pivot from getting back weighted?

See my second comment above about waiting for the heel to strike. ;)

[madmaximus]

There must be some hidden tricks that only practice and experience can bring in order to pivot correctly, both lady and man, in waltz, tango, foxtrot.

What are they, please share them?

First of all,
What kind of pivots are you thinking of?

[There's a number of them, as you probably know.
There's the regular Reverse Pivot.
The Slip Pivot.
The dreaded Natural Pivot turns, and so on...]

Arguably, while the underlying technique is similar among them, they are specific enough to be different from one another...




m

[White Chacha]

Wow, is it pivot season, or is this technique one of the premier bugaboos. Or both ;-)

[Chris Stratton]

This is actually a common misconception. Your thighs should be closed when you pivot forward, but quite open when you pivot back.

Actually, opening the thighs into step one of a backwards action with CBM is a common but serious mistake. By broadening you, it causes your partner to literally come at you and be blocked by you, almost as if you were trying to absorb them - the only way they can get past is if you detour way to the side. In comparison, the combination of CBM with closed thighs invites them to come directly at you, but then opens a path through before they would actually be blocked.

[atk]

In reponse to the OP, and having worked on pivots a couple months ago, here's the list of things I remember being told/try to do.

As stated before, legs should be tightly held together, like a pair of scissors that have been opened. When pivoting right, the left leg should be backward. When pivoting left, the right leg should be backward. Also, as stated, the legs should never open sideways - they should always be forward & backward.

The knees must remain bent, but not too deeply. Straight or locked legs will make it impossible to keep your balance.

The dance position needs to be very close, if not in body contact. The inside of the forward thigh should brush against the inside of your partner's thigh.

Contra body position is essential, and should never be lost during the pivots.

The person going foward (as always) should be providing the power for the turn, and it needs to be rather agressive in pivots. The person going backward should go along for the ride, and invite the person going forward around them.

Footwork going forward should heel-toe-heel, all on the forward foot. Footwork going backward toe-heel-toe, all on the backward foot. The turn should take place on the toe, but the heel should be skimming/kissing the floor. Forward, it pretty much goes heel-toe-turn-heel. Backward it pretty much goes toe-heel-toe-turn-roll_off_the_toe.

(edited next paragraph, adding explaination. I really should preview & reread several times before I hit post...)
There is no rise & fall during pivots. This includes both body rise & toe rise. Even though you're going back and forth over the toe & heel. Keeping your heel brushing the floor prevents the toe rise. Body rise just doesn't feel natural during pivots.

The first step of the backward half is actually slightly towards the wall, maybe 1/16 off LOD. While this would seem to direct the pivots toward the wall (and will, if you're practicing, alone), keeping the leg connection to the inside of your partner's leg will straighten you out the direction of travel, and keep everything going line of dance.

When on the backward half, you must be extemely patient, and wait for your partner to come all the way around you. Only after your partner has come around, and you are facing LOD, should you begin the forward half of the pivot. If you cut this short, and step early, your pivots will aim toward the center of the room, and may become rock turns.

You must remain upright, with good posture, or your balance and your partner's balance will be affected.

You must keep your head to the left, no matter how tempted you are to look right. If you look right, you will change your dance position, moving your partner to the left, and making it impossible to come around.

Keep your frame strong (as always).

Relax. Hiking your shoulders will harm your frame.

Don't worry about the timing. Finish the pivot. If you take 2 beats to do a single pivot, so be it. If you take 3, fine. Just finish the movement correctly. You can always handle timing, later. Also, you can do other things to make up the time you lost/gained. It seems like the person going forward is really the one who's going to control the timing, anyway.

When going backward, do not pull on your partner! This will do nothing but knock them off balance.

That's about all I can think of...

[skwiggy]

Actually, opening the thighs into step one of a backwards action with CBM is a common but serious mistake. By broadening you, it causes your partner to literally come at you and be blocked by you, almost as if you were trying to absorb them - the only way they can get past is if you detour way to the side. In comparison, the combination of CBM with closed thighs invites them to come directly at you, but then opens a path through before they would actually be blocked.

I'm not going to get into a technical argument over this. All I know is, for years I was told to do the tight thigh, scissor thing, and I struggled with pivots the whole time. Then 2 well-renowned coaches told me to open my legs on the back step, and it made the pivots much much easier for both me and my partner.

[liangjz]

The person going foward (as always) should be providing the power for the turn, and it needs to be rather agressive in pivots. The person going backward should go along for the ride, and invite the person going forward around them.



When I started, I had problems I had when I started was with traveling and turning the correct amount. It's very easy for many people to barely travel when doing pivots. Make sure you apply power when going forward and backwards to actually make it down the floor.

The other issue is with turning the correct amount. I used to turn only most of the way during the forward moving part of the pivot. This would leave me with more to do during the second part. This was ok the first pivot, but get me really screwed up by the second or third pivot.



You must keep your head to the left, no matter how tempted you are to look right. If you look right, you will change your dance position, moving your partner to the left, and making it impossible to come around.


Yeah... this one got me for a while too. If your partner thinks that you're in the way during pivots, this might be why.

[madmaximus]

Sanity check.

You guys DO realize that there are at LEAST three different techniques/styles of doing continuous Natural Pivot turns, don't you?

Each vary somewhat in how the body mechanics move.

Each will produce subtly different look and movement from the other...

Right?




m

[atk]

Sanity check.

You guys DO realize that there are at LEAST three different techniques/styles of doing continuous Natural Pivot turns, don't you?

Each vary somewhat in how the body mechanics move.

Each will produce subtly different look and movement from the other...

Right?
m

Actually, no, I'm not familiar with there being 3 different ways of pivoting - at least, not offhand. Can you point out what the differences between the three are?

[PasoDancer]

What works best for us (and our pivots are almost recognizeable as pivots rather than two seagulls humping) is directing energy into the floor, staying low and using centrifugal motion, leaving my right foot in place long enough for him to get around, and not flying off his leg and killing someone with my right foot.

Clear as mud. It only took us like two months to even get to a point where we didn't just kind of cleave to each other stiffly and whirl around like mating cats in a blender.

[Katarzyna]

What works best for us (and our pivots are almost recognizeable as pivots rather than two seagulls humping) is directing energy into the floor, staying low and using centrifugal motion, leaving my right foot in place long enough for him to get around, and not flying off his leg and killing someone with my right foot.

Clear as mud. It only took us like two months to even get to a point where we didn't just kind of cleave to each other stiffly and whirl around like mating cats in a blender.you made my evening with this one...

[wooh]

What works best for us (and our pivots are almost recognizeable as pivots rather than two seagulls humping) is directing energy into the floor, staying low and using centrifugal motion, leaving my right foot in place long enough for him to get around, and not flying off his leg and killing someone with my right foot.

Clear as mud. It only took us like two months to even get to a point where we didn't just kind of cleave to each other stiffly and whirl around like mating cats in a blender.

I read this 10 minutes ago and I'm still giggling...

[PasoDancer]

You think that's bad, you should see the video clip! :D

[skwiggy]

What works best for us (and our pivots are almost recognizeable as pivots rather than two seagulls humping) is directing energy into the floor, staying low and using centrifugal motion, leaving my right foot in place long enough for him to get around, and not flying off his leg and killing someone with my right foot.

Clear as mud. It only took us like two months to even get to a point where we didn't just kind of cleave to each other stiffly and whirl around like mating cats in a blender.

:uplaugh: :uplaugh: :uplaugh:

I choked on my coffee. :)

[cornutt]

One thing that I always have to remember is to not "bail out" on my back step. By "bailing out", I mean pulling my right leg out from between my partner's legs -- an unconscious and counter-productive attempt to gain momentum. I'm not sure why that happens; I think that pulling the right leg breaks up the common axis of rotation. I need to video that sometime so I can see what's happening.

Oh, and one other lesson I've learned: the follower absolutely must step into the leader as she takes her forward step. If she doesn't, there isn't a lead in the world strong enough to complete the rotation (without just bodily picking the follower up off the floor ). Followers, if you ever want to absolutely kill a pivot turn, take an itty-bitty step there... :shock:

[Me]

I'll just copy/paste some notes I took in TC training. Hopefully they aren't too confusing.

Ah, I'll re-post later. This was an old draft with many mistakes. 'Real' version is on another computer.

[madmaximus]

... It only took us like two months to even get to a point where we didn't just kind of cleave to each other stiffly and whirl around like mating cats in a blender...

Hee hee...

This is how I felt when I first tried the pivots many, many, moons ago.

So descriptive.





m

[madmaximus]

Actually, no, I'm not familiar with there being 3 different ways of pivoting - at least, not offhand. Can you point out what the differences between the three are?

Three varieties of Continuous Nat. Pivots--depending on the philosophical basis of the style you feel is right for you at your level, or which one you subscribe to:

1. Where the body is held in strict CBMP (basically in-place) TOGETHER through the pivots. The thighs are held together (in both forward and backward actions), and the legs swing about into the next pivot point. Both dancers move at exactly the same time--arguably a reflection of each other's position throughout the movement.

[edited for clarity]
2. Where the backward action is similar to the (man's) 4,5 of the Nat Turn (ie if you're moving backwards,that is--on the inside of the, the body unlike num 1--is held in CBM, turns less to sync with the movement of the partner but the foot plants early. Like number 1, (and quite unlike the Nat Turn) the right leg still swings around into place. For the astute observer, this means that the thighs of the dancer going backwards WILL open.

3. Where the backward action is similar to the (man's) 456 of the Overturned Natural Spin turn (no rise) going into a Turning Lock to the Right. In this one, the legs don't swing into place, they travel in a straight line to the next pivot point.


There's a number of details that go into each one.
The reader should realize that--although a style/move is compared to another figure--the footwork will obviously be different, and adapted to the needs of the C. Nat. Pivot.
Also, there is some variation in how the forward movement is managed among the three types.
But I thought it easiest to categorize them by the backward action.





m

[atk]

madmaximus,

Thank you for the descriptions. It sounds like I'm doing number 1, so all my comments are pretty much applicable only to that. I'm not sure if I've seen 2 or 3, before.


--
atk

[Chris Stratton]

1. Where the body is held in strict CBM (basically in-place) TOGETHER through the pivots.

that would be CBMP


2. Where the backward action is similar to the (man's) 4,5 of the Nat Turn (ie if you're moving backwards,that is--on the inside of the, the body turns less but the foot plants early. Like number 1, (and quite unlike the Nat Turn) the leg still swings around into place. For the astute observer, this means that the thighs of the dancer going backwards WILL open.

If you don't hold the leg in CBMP, then it's going to go straight through as in #3, and not around. If you do hold it in CBMP, it's just number 1 again.

[madmaximus]

that would be CBMP


Thank you for the correction.
You are quite right--it IS CBMP.
Minor typo, major implication.


If you don't hold the leg in CBMP, then it's going to go straight through as in #3, and not around. If you do hold it in CBMP, it's just number 1 again.

I understand your point.

But I see the difference as partly in how the leg/foot travels towards the next pivot point. In num 2, the leg travels in a gentle enough arc, the other (num 3) it travels in a straight line.

The differences are a little subtle--thus, I consider it separate style from the other two.





m

[JANATHOME]

I have really, really been enjoying this thread.... All I have to say is that I am glad that my office is long and narrow...

I read a post, and as usual I have trouble with the visual of written dance words... they only way I can understand it is to feel it, so I get up from my desk and give it a try... The group in my office is pretty use to me by now, they just ignore me!

[Chris Stratton]

2. Where the backward action is similar to the (man's) 4,5 of the Nat Turn (ie if you're moving backwards,that is--on the inside of the, the body turns less but the foot plants early. Like number 1, (and quite unlike the Nat Turn) the leg still swings around into place. For the astute observer, this means that the thighs of the dancer going backwards WILL open.

There's opening the thighs while placing the backwards step (a mistake) and then there's opening them while sending the originally departed foot into the next (forwardish) step, which would be a hint of an ordinary pointing alignment type of action.

Looking at things another way:

Are 'foot held in CBMP' and 'right thigh to right thigh' mutually compatible or incompatible?

(I'm thinking incompatible)

[waltzgirl]

Thank you for the correction.
You are quite right--it IS CBMP.
Minor typo, major implication.





Those terms--CBM and CBMP--drive me crazy! I can never remember which is which. I know what they are, I can just never remember which name to give which, and I usually guess wrong.

I just checked ballroomdancers.com and CBM was defined as:

The turning of the body against the standing foot, in the direction of the moving leg. Contra Body Movement is used to commence turns in the ballroom dances. Also known as: Contrary Body Movement, Contra Body Motion.

Does that mean that Max used the right term in the first place in his #1, since he was talking about the body? Or am I confused again?

[Another Elizabeth]

Those terms--CBM and CBMP--drive me crazy! I can never remember which is which. I know what they are, I can just never remember which name to give which, and I usually guess wrong.

It's actually easy to remember if you know what they stand for. CBM ("contra body motion") is a motion, and CBMP ("contra body motion position") is a position. So CBM describes a way of moving your body from one position to another, and CBMP describes a body position. CBM frequently (but definitely not always) results in attaining CBMP.

So Max did mean CBMP, since he was talking about holding the body in a particular fixed position. CBM is not fixed - there must be a change in the relative position of body and legs for CBM to be present.

[waltzgirl]

It's actually easy to remember if you know what they stand for. CBM ("contra body motion") is a motion, and CBMP ("contra body motion position") is a position. So CBM describes a way of moving your body from one position to another, and CBMP describes a body position. CBM frequently (but definitely not always) results in attaining CBMP.

So Max did mean CBMP, since he was talking about holding the body in a particular fixed position. CBM is not fixed - there must be a change in the relative position of body and legs for CBM to be present.


OK, now I am really confused. ballroomdancers.com defines CBMP as

The foot position achieved by placing the moving foot along the path of the standing foot, either in front or behind.


So they are making a clear distinction between CBM=body and CBMP=foot. Maybe people use the terms to mean different things?

[dancewriter]

For women and men I have found that keeping your weight as forward as possible is one of the easiest ways to pivot, especially when first starting out. This will automatically connect you to your partner more and the compactness is key in moving in one, smooth motion. And you cant do it half way, one of the best things my coach ever told me was to commit.

[Chris Stratton]

Actually, CBM/CBMP is a very messy subject. It starts off reasonably clear, but then there are all sorts of suprising twists.

CBMP is a position, that much is clear, and its a twisted position in which one could say that each foot is closest to the opposite side of the body.

One of the ways you could get into that position is to rotate your body in that direction, which would be the action we call CBM. The problem is, "CBMP" is almost never used to describe the immediate result of CBM, even in the common situation where using CBM achieves something that is essentially the same position.

Instead, "CBMP" tends to be used more as a reminder, we might say it's a simile: "a position like that which results from CBM". In this way, "CBMP" is primarily used to describe where your moving foot goes if you place it diagonally so it nears the opposite side of your body - you could even say it is a direction of movement - forward and slightly diagonal across the body.

Generally you get into CBMP because at some point in the past you turned your body such that it's not facing in your direction of travel, meaning that movement in the direction of travel will be slightly across you body. For example, you could CBM on step 1 of a feather and achieve something a bit like CBMP, but by custom we don't mention that - it's not necessary since we told you to do CBM. Then on the next step we call the position you are in a side lead, since it's carried over from the first step. On the third step, we keep moving in the same direction which brings the moving foot across our body - and since it's carried over from two steps previous, now it's appropriate to call it CBMP as a reminder.

Incidentally, that CBMP step went outside partner. In fact almost all CBMP steps do - if you commence a movement from a side lead position already headed towards the CBMP you will achieve, you are dancing an outside partner action (and if you commence it aiming towards "across in CBMP" you are dancing promenade)

But if CBM results in a position much like CBMP, why aren't those steps outside partner? The answer is that when you start the movement already aimed towards CBMP, your legs cross in front of theirs, wheras when you only rotate into the twisted position during the step, your legs cross behind theirs.

And you can actually do both - a natural turn with its first step outside partner is taken into CBMP because you were already moving in that direction, but it also has CBM because you are commencing a turn.

Alright, so what about the pivot? If you do the requested CBM you step into the pivot, and that results in the twisted position. If you then rotate on the arriving foot while keeping the twisted position, they can stretch the rules a bit and decide to remind you that your free foot is being held in CBMP. And for the spin turn, they will even tell you that next step is being placed into CBMP. But it won't go outside partner, because your free foot was held past your partner's standing one during the rotation - it has no chance to cross over in front of theirs to get outside partner.

In tango, you don't have to be in a side lead position before stepping into official CBMP. This is because tango doesn't have body flight to force you to move in a consistent direction from one downswing to the next upswing. Instead, you can pick an arbitrary new direction and move in it.

[Another Elizabeth]

Maybe people use the terms to mean different things?

No, it's consistent. You're just focusing on a different part of the definition. To quote ballroomdancers.com for both of them:
Contra body movement: The turning of the body against the standing foot, in the direction of the moving leg. Contra Body Movement is used to commence turns in the ballroom dances. Also known as: Contrary Body Movement, Contra Body Motion.
Contra body movement position: The foot position achieved by placing the moving foot along the path of the standing foot, either in front or behind.
(emphasis added)

So CBM is an action (turning the body) and CBMP is a position (of the feet, as they describe it). In fact, people usually describe CBMP as a position of the whole body (not just the feet), in my experience, but it's the body position created by doing what they say with the feet.

Stated another way, if you can see it in a still photo, it's CBMP. If you need a video to see it, it's CBM.

[Chris Stratton]

Stated another way, if you can see it in a still photo, it's CBMP. If you need a video to see it, it's CBM.

It's not that simple, as the CBMP-like result of CBM is not considered to be CBMP.

To tell the difference between what is elgible to be called CBMP vs the result of CBM, you may need either a video (to see how they go there) or to include a partner (as CBMP correlates with outside partner)

It would be simpler if the books were re-written to acknowledge a contrary position, and two methods of getting there - rotation and diagonal travel.

[madmaximus]

WaltzGirl
Listen to AnotherElizabeth--it really IS that simple.

Don't mind all that techno-gibberish blah blah blah--it makes us technicians feel all warm and fuzzy inside.
Besides, it'll only clog up your brain--I know it does mine.

In its most simplistic:

CBM is a movement:
eg: Step forward with your right foot(ON ITS OWN TRACK)--rotate your torso to the right as you do this.

CBMP is foremost a position that will involve CBM in attaining that position.
eg Step forward with your right foot and put it in front of the left--either rotating your body before or after the foot lands.
Voila! Instant CBMP.



m

[madmaximus]

Now, to get back on topic:


The biggest, most important, most valuable, secret to a good continuous Nat. Pivot turn is #xsa3 kjdfxjcvkl;

[how ruide! My cmpter jst crshe d...]





z

[Medira]

Now, to get back on topic:


The biggest, most important, most valuable, secret to a good continuous Nat. Pivot turn is #xsa3 kjdfxjcvkl;

[how ruide! My cmpter jst crshe d...]





z

Meanie head! :tongue:

[madmaximus]

Meanie head! :tongue:

:)


Sorry.
It's one of those blah days for me where levity seems profoundly abundant.




m

[Chris Stratton]

WaltzGirl
Listen to AnotherElizabeth--it really IS that simple.

Unfortunately, the simple version is wrong.

CBM is a movement:
eg: Step forward with your right foot(ON ITS OWN TRACK)--rotate your torso to the right as you do this.

Any rotation past neutral will overlap the tracks of your feet. If you simply walk down the street without much turnout, you are going to be at least partially overlapping tracks.

CBMP is foremost a position that will involve CBM in attaining that position.eg Step forward with your right foot and put it in front of the left--either rotating your body before or after the foot lands.
Voila! Instant CBMP.

No. Outside of tango and the "held in CBMP" oddity, CBMP is never created from rotation during the step in which it occurs. The term CBMP is used only when the position is achieved via linear travel in that direction, not when it is achieved via rotation.

This means that CBMP can only occur as a result of rotation on a previous step. So for example you do CBM on the first step, find yourself in a (same) side lead on the second, and finally you are in an opposite side lead - aka CBMP on the third (and outside partner as a result).

Here's an attempt at simplifying things:

1) CBM is a body rotation towards the moving foot

2) CBMP is an opposite side lead, but not all opposite side leads are officially considered to be CBMP, instead the term applies mostly to those carried over from a same side lead on the previous step.

EDIT: In fact there are no exceptions - CBM never results in official-usage-of-the-term CBMP during the same action. In tango, the CBMP is caused by the body position when the step is commenced. In a pivot, CBM during the step into the pivot creates a body position, but it is not termed CBMP of the foot that took the step. Instead, the term CBMP is only used during the second phase the step, to describe the position of the other foot (the one that will take the next step). I would not have defined the term with such a restriction, but then I didn't write the book.

[madmaximus]

Yep.

Right on queue.




m

[madmaximus]

CBMP is foremost a position...
No.


It isn't?




m

[Chris Stratton]

My paragraph was a reply to your paragraph, pointing out the flawed linkage you drew between CBM and CBMP. If you take just the first sentance of yours and the first word of mine, it makes no sense.

The term CBMP is used only when the fact of the position is somehow distinct from the ultimate rotational cause of it.

[Medira]

:)


Sorry.
It's one of those blah days for me where levity seems profoundly abundant.




m
No worries. I'ts all good. :) I'm extremely sleep-deprived, so I slip into pain-in-the-arse mode very easily...

[madmaximus]

My paragraph was a reply to your paragraph, pointing out the flawed

linkage you drew between CBM and CBMP. If you take just the first sentance of yours and the first word

of mine, it makes no sense.



And it feels disingenuous, doesn't it?

I know it makes no sense--I did it on purpose.
To make a point.

In my early days of dancing, I used to make blanket judgments on technique.
I often contradicted others, saying this or that is wrong or a mistake.
Not realizing that it was outside the scope of my knowledge, or understanding.
Or that simply, there were other ways of doing things that were outside of my notion of technique.
And, I thought I understood technique.

It also made me sound petty, autocratic, and stupid.
And just plain arrogant.
Arrogant, arrogant, arrogant.


Then SLAM.
Every one of my mentors--each one a world-level dancer taught me the singular lesson of my dancing life:
There is NO right or wrong in dance--just choices, and how you make those choices work.

All my mentors understood that living ONLY within the confines of the strictures of convention--of what I thought was technically correct or incorrect--was anathema to the soul and passion of a real dancer.
They taught me to allow for other's perspectives--because they too have their say.
I wasn't egotistic enough to contradict their lessons then, so I won't do it know.


We all know full well that it is difficult enough to describe the mechanics of dance in person.
It is even more supremely difficult to do in text.

I laud your taste for accuracy and your contribution to technical information here.
But sometimes a messy description is all that is required--or within the ability of the poster for reasons of time, knowledge, understanding, or verbal skill.

And sometimes we should just let it be.





m

[Chris Stratton]

There is NO right or wrong in dance--just choices, and how you make those choices work.

Perhaps. But "CBMP" and "CBM" are not dance, they are formalized language for describing dance. And in that there is most definitely proper and improper usage of the terminology.

In the case of "CBMP" the term may only be used when the fact of being in the position is seperated from any rotation that might have originally contributed to being there. This is pretty important, because if you get it wrong you will not make the intended connections between actual dancing and written descriptions of it - ie, you won't be in positions the description is requesting, and you will be dancing actions it is not requesting - in other words, you will be dancing differently than the instructions you might have thought you were following.

In person it doesn't really matter what you say as long as you get the dancing right... but in writing, or if what you say makes it into your student's notebooks... then it matters if you misuse terms.

It's okay to think of CBM resulting in CBMP, but it's not okay to say it, because it conflicts with the formal usage of the term - you won't find that linkage in written figure descriptions.

[PasoDancer]

http://videobomb.com/thumbnails/67a8be9b552b3ff812af90190c615a45.gif

[gracie]

Well, I know a FEW points for the ladies-- clean heel leads into them and during them, stay in position, not letting your body cross the midline of the man (easier said than done), stay down, head in closed position. And, I've been told by several good Pros that I do them pretty well-- HA!!:raisebro: :p :raisebro:

[waltzgirl]

In my early days of dancing, I used to make blanket judgments on technique.
I often contradicted others, saying this or that is wrong or a mistake.
Not realizing that it was outside the scope of my knowledge, or understanding.
Or that simply, there were other ways of doing things that were outside of my notion of technique.
And, I thought I understood technique.
. . .
Every one of my mentors--each one a world-level dancer taught me the singular lesson of my dancing life:
There is NO right or wrong in dance--just choices, and how you make those choices work.
. . .
We all know full well that it is difficult enough to describe the mechanics of dance in person.
It is even more supremely difficult to do in text.
. . .
I laud your taste for accuracy and your contribution to technical information here.
But sometimes a messy description is all that is required--or within the ability of the poster for reasons of time, knowledge, understanding, or verbal skill.


And sometimes we should just let it be.

m


Thanks, max! You are always the voice of sanity in these discussions. We all need to remember that "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing."

I do enjoy discussions of technique and usually learn something, up til the point that language fails us and it becomes about semantics rather than dancing. No one's fault, just evidence of the fact that language is sometimes a very clumsy tool for communicating.

I do get from everyone's contributions what distinction CBM and CBMP is trying to make. But I still think the terms themselves are pretty inefficient.

I think that I'll just go back to doing what I know how to do and stop worrying about what to call it!

[Dancebug]

I bump this thread with a question.

Are there any technique differences in continuous pivot turns between tango and waltz/FT?

[tangotime]

So, your" world " class dancers think there is no right or wrong ?-- then ask them this, and tell them it came from a coach-- " would you have the ladies head turned outwards on a fallaway position ? " ( as in f/away. d.r spin combo ) Of course there are certain things in all dances that are fairly well cast in stone, more at basic levels than advanced, and . as Scrivener said-- " there is no such thing as perfect techn. ". but-- there is always a caveat to bold statements , and the inexperienced needs to be very wary, before they change proven concepts, for no good reason .