when will girls stop being mad at me?

[nycsalsero]

I've been dancing now for 8 months pretty intensely, and I think I'm pretty decent now. Some nice girls tell me I have a smooth lead, and I've taken many private lessons so I know I'm not doing anything horribly wrong.

But inevitably if I'm dancing with a girl she usually looks either disgusted or bored. Sometimes I have a very enjoyable dance with a girl who actually acts like she WANTS to dance with me, but that's maybe only a third of my dances.

I try to control my sweating by sitting out every other song under a fan, I don't smell... do I really have to become god's gift to salsa before these girls will act like they're not at a funeral when dancing with me?

[genEus]

I've been dancing now for 8 months pretty intensely, and I think I'm pretty decent now. Some nice girls tell me I have a smooth lead, and I've taken many private lessons so I know I'm not doing anything horribly wrong.

But inevitably if I'm dancing with a girl she usually looks either disgusted or bored. Sometimes I have a very enjoyable dance with a girl who actually acts like she WANTS to dance with me, but that's maybe only a third of my dances.

I try to control my sweating by sitting out every other song under a fan, I don't smell... do I really have to become god's gift to salsa before these girls will act like they're not at a funeral when dancing with me?

Have you ever tried asking one of those girls for honest feedback?

[PasoDancer]

Some girls are just bitches, no matter what you do for them. Those are the ones you ignore.

[nycsalsero]

Some girls are bitches, definitely. But for the most part these girls seem nice enough, they just don't have such a good time with me.

For many good reasons, I'm not going to ask these girls for feedback after a dance, especially if they act like they just want to get away from me.

What about the girls on this forum? What could cause you to be mad like that?

[Tony_Salvi]

But for the most part these girls seem nice enough, they just don't have such a good time with me.

For many good reasons, I'm not going to ask these girls for feedback after a dance, especially if they act like they just want to get away from me.



Well first of all, I don't understand why you couldn't just ask them like geneus suggested. Why wouldn't you want to know directly from the source? Even if they say that you're horrible, cast the ego aside,make the corrections if necessary, and then they'll enjoy dancing with you. If it's a personality issue then there's not much to be done. A lot less if you never talk to them about it.

Secondly, I think you might want to be a little bit more specific. Do they look like this ALL the time? Or during certain parts of the songs. Maybe there are some moves they don't like. How do they respond when you dance w/them? Are they very advanced? When they DO smile...who are they smiling with? All valid questions that could probably help. Hope it all goes well and you figure it out.

[KiwiMambo]

Boy its tough been a beginner. I remember those days. That's why I never say no to anyone because I remember what it was like. I think it's harder been a beginner lead since you have to remember all the turn patterns. It must be really hard been a beginner in NYC. I'm not helping much am I?

In general, girls are used to dancing with dancers that are better than them. Guys generally dance with people at their level, with the occasional dance with someone better than them - but not too often, because it hurts when your request gets shot down. You see this all the time - Nice girl wears a pretty outfit. Good lead doesn't know her but will still ask her to dance. I've never seen this - Nice man dresses up. Good follow doesn't know him but still asks him to dance.

Not fair, I know. But that's just the way it is. All I can say is it takes time and it does get better as you improve as a dancer.

[Josh]

nycsalsero, how long have you been dancing? how many private lessons have you had? what style do you dance?

[Shooshoo]

I think you ask them. At least one or two. Or even ask any of you male friends or instructor. Maybe there's something you do without noticing.
Some of the men I don't like to dance are:

- ones who seem to be reciting the salsa syllabus; doing one move after the other

- ones who do not try to make any connection; they seem so happy that they finally got the moves that they forget they're dancing with someone or they are checking if other people are watching and noticing their progress.

- the ones who don't consider my feedback if I tell them about a move I don't like to do and they still do it anyway

[Joe]

You could be very high school and ask one of the guys with whom those bitches do like dancing with to ask them for you, "Why don't you like dancing with nycsalsero?"

[genEus]

You could be very high school and ask one of the guys with whom those bitches do like dancing with to ask them for you, "Why don't you like dancing with nycsalsero?"

Good idea! Actually, guys should be more sympathetic to your situation. I can imagine if anyone asked me a similar question, since some girls do complain to me about other guys, I would tell those guys why they get such a reaction. Most of the problems have to do with the guys being horrible off-beat, arm-yanking dancers, so there's really nothing offensive in saying that.

Or, what you can do is go to Jimmy's on Sunday and dance with africana. I believe she'll tell you everything that's wrong with you, and then some. That could be an eye-opener. :mrgreen:

[Vin]

I'm going to go te other route . . . Some girls are just never going to be satisfied unless you are considered in a certain salsa "social class". Plus you are in NYC, where great dancers are everywhere, it makes it a tougher scene. 8 months . . . c'mon that's nothing.

I say concentrate on the girls that you enjoy dancing with. Every once in a while I used to peek my head up and dance with women that used to have that "bored" look when dancing with me, but now I really don't care about dancing with them.

Seriously, there are enough women in the salsa scene that for every girl that gives you that bored look there are 5 over on the other side of the room(often just as skilled just as attractive, moreso if you consider the smile) who will be thrilled to dance with you.

[alemana]

women are not "used to" dancing with someone better than them - that implies that there are more upper-level leaders then lower-level followers, and that's simply not the case, certainly not here in NYC. women *want to* dance up, like most men do, but it's not possible most of the time. the numbers just don't skew that way.

[yippee1999]

While no excuse for the women to act that way, a possible explanation is that the women you are asking to dance are more advanced than you and/or they are thrill-seekers of sorts.... looking for guys that will send them into multiple spins, or expose them to new moves/turn patterns that keep them on their toes so to speak. Do you find this occurring moreso at certain clubs/social dances?

[Shooshoo]

Seriously, there are enough women in the salsa scene that for every girl that gives you that bored look there are 5 over on the other side of the room(often just as skilled just as attractive, moreso if you consider the smile) who will be thrilled to dance with you.

That's true and so is the other way around. I remember when I was first learning I would always look forward to dance with my instructor or someone who is very advanced. Now my enjoyment is partly, of course on the level of the dancer, but a larger part is on the personality of the dancer and how nice the guy is and the connection we have. Beginners will always get better.

[aimerrouge]

...But inevitably if I'm dancing with a girl she usually looks either disgusted or bored. Sometimes I have a very enjoyable dance with a girl who actually acts like she WANTS to dance with me, but that's maybe only a third of my dances....

As a girl who used to be told she needs to smile more, I would offer:

Given that you don't seemed to have actually asked these girls if there is something you could be doing differently, your only making assumptions. Back when I didn't smile it was because I was concentrating intently on following. It never meant I wasn't enjoying the dance. If anything I was really worried my partner wasn't enjoying the dance.

Do you ever offer any pleasantries to these girls by saying things like "I like dancing with you" or "Smile, this is supposed be fun."

Finally, is the lack of smiling really about dancing? Are you looking for an indication that these girls would like to know you away from the dancefloor? ;)

[Vin]

Honestly in my experience this attitude has nothing to do with level of dancing. I have gotten this attitude from "beginners" as well as "advanced" dancers, as I have gotten the reverse from all ranges as well.

Yes, the guys, we are not immune to it, difference is, we can ask whomever we choose to dance with.

If you really want to minimize "the bored look" concentrate on being on beat and have a few turn patterns that you lead as close to perfect as you can.

[quixotedlm]

I've been dancing now for 8 months pretty intensely, and I think I'm pretty decent now. Some nice girls tell me I have a smooth lead, and I've taken many private lessons so I know I'm not doing anything horribly wrong.

Define 'intensely'. How often do you dance with someone better than yourself? And how 'many' private lessons?

8 months is not a long time, but long enough that you could be pretty good. We always go through phases of feeling crappy because we know we suck, then feeling good because we've become better, and then feeling crappy all over again because we were wrong about thinking that we are good, and the cycle repeats over and over again. You might be in that zone of obliviousness where you find nothing wrong in yourself but some of your followers feel the mistakes you make, and you are on the verge of a breakthrough realization that it is you and not them :)

Have you trying changing your private instructor a bit? Sometimes, having the same instructor is detrimental at the beginning, because you get used to one way of dancing.

[africana]

tsk tsk genEus, tryin to stay out of this :p

"mad at me" sounds serious, like he did something bad...hard to tell. Although looking mad is a useful tool in itself hee!

[yippee1999]

Quixotedlm... you totally hit on something that I never verbalized before. I too can feel great about my dancing, then "dejected" when I see a video of myself and find things to criticize about myself, then better when I made it through a difficult class pretty successfully, then bad again when I seem to be messing-up one after another with the more advanced guys that I dance with... And so it goes!

[nycsalsero]

Thanks for all the interesting feedback. To answer Josh and quixotedlm's question, I took about 20 privates on 1, the when I moved to new york 6 months ago I started taking numerous group classes and about 20 more privates on 2. I go out dancing 6 times a week.


It's almost always girls better than me that give me this attitude. One thing I notice is that while I am doing "standard" moves, with only moderate musicality (i.e. not doing moves when the music is quiet, lol) the really good dancers do variations on these moves that almost seem to make fun of the standard moves...

[quixotedlm]

Thanks for all the interesting feedback. To answer Josh and quixotedlm's question, I took about 20 privates on 1, the when I moved to new york 6 months ago I started taking numerous group classes and about 20 more privates on 2. I go out dancing 6 times a week.


It's almost always girls better than me that give me this attitude. One thing I notice is that while I am doing "standard" moves, with only moderate musicality (i.e. not doing moves when the music is quiet, lol) the really good dancers do variations on these moves that almost seem to make fun of the standard moves...

ok, i think you answered your own question :)

you haven't done enough in either on1 or on2, and since the though processes that go behind each are not entirely interchangable, i think you are being too hard on yourself by looking at the cumulative number of lessons you've taken, even though only your on2 learning really counts. It is also possible that you have some bad habits from on1 classes (i.e., habits that don't work well in the on2 world, but are just fine in on1).

The whole 'thinking on your feet' thing and having a diverse repertorie of moves takes time to build. You are in the classic 'frustration' stage of every new leader. Suck it up and have a good attitude. The fact that you have self realization of this is proof that you will be over it in a few weeks.

The really good followers are always going to look at you funny for a few years. One way to get over it is to build social networks. Instead of taking lessons in one studio, sign up for lessons in different studios at the same time. You will meet several classmates in differnet studios and they will all become a part of your network of salsa-friends - who will always be nice to you because they 'know' you. You will occasionally meet really good followers in these classes too. Or you can turn that logic around and become a pseudo stalker - find out where the good followers take classes, and sign up for those. It works either way :)

[MacMoto]

But inevitably if I'm dancing with a girl she usually looks either disgusted or bored. Sometimes I have a very enjoyable dance with a girl who actually acts like she WANTS to dance with me, but that's maybe only a third of my dances.
You've already received some good advice, but one other point that's occurred to me...

What do *you* look like when you are dancing?

As others have said you always get girls who look bored dancing with beginners, but dances with some beginners are more boring than others. There are beginners who never give you eye contact, watching his feet, watching whatever it is on the floor to his side, watching behind me... beginners who look all serious, or terrified, or even totally blank, who never smiles...

Then you get beginners who are always looking at you with a smile, responding to you with an even bigger smile when you add a bit of styling, obviously enjoying the music and the dance. These guys may have a very limited set of moves, but you do feel their sense of fun and enjoyment, and it makes a big difference to the whole experience.

[Ultima]

You've already received some good advice, but one other point that's occurred to me...

What do *you* look like when you are dancing?

As others have said you always get girls who look bored dancing with beginners, but dances with some beginners are more boring than others. There are beginners who never give you eye contact, watching his feet, watching whatever it is on the floor to his side, watching behind me... beginners who look all serious, or terrified, or even totally blank, who never smiles...

Then you get beginners who are always looking at you with a smile, responding to you with an even bigger smile when you add a bit of styling, obviously enjoying the music and the dance. These guys may have a very limited set of moves, but you do feel their sense of fun and enjoyment, and it makes a big difference to the whole experience.

I have to agree with you here ..

Cause I am a begginer and I hardly have a problem when it comes to dancing with the girls that follow.. cause I am always having fun no matter what even if I look stupid or make a mistake , the main thing for me is having fun , and making the girl smile , or laugh even..

I tell you something a lot of the times I get asked to dance from a lot of the more advanced Women!! perhaps maybe cause I am just a really fun loving guy? dunno!!? but I think MacMoto has a good point none the less!!

[yola]

yep! could do the trick. I know i really like to dance with this guy, who is a intermediate dancer, doesn't dance very musically, just repeats the patterns he is taught (badly sometimes)... but he always smiles, gives a small appreciative sort of giggle (with admiring eyes) when i do some styling... etc.
he's really funny/nice to dance with. he makes me feel good about myself.
okey, i wouldn't dance with him the whole evening, but i absolutely wouldn't say 'no' to a second or third dance either.

[tangotime]

Is it possible that you are dancing with a lot of latinos ?-- if so, remember, many have been listening and dancing to the music since they were babies ( ever go into a latinos house ?, not all , but many only have that type of music playing ) point, their " ear " , is more accustomed to the poly rhythms ,; the practical side is very good, like most students, you are expecting too much too soon. Re- calibrate your thinking to at least a yr. when you will start to go on " auto pilot " , I have students with me who have been taking for a yr, and are just beginning to " get it " . Also, club conditions and class work , are 2 different animals . hang in there, you,ll make it .

[raindreamer]

Practice, practice, practice is the key

[Sagitta]

Thanks for all the interesting feedback. To answer Josh and quixotedlm's question, I took about 20 privates on 1, the when I moved to new york 6 months ago I started taking numerous group classes and about 20 more privates on 2. I go out dancing 6 times a week.


It's almost always girls better than me that give me this attitude. One thing I notice is that while I am doing "standard" moves, with only moderate musicality (i.e. not doing moves when the music is quiet, lol) the really good dancers do variations on these moves that almost seem to make fun of the standard moves...

Make fun of them? Or make you feel that the moves you are doing are not what the girls want, or not what you want to do? I see people doing fancy moves many times. I don't care! I repeat... I DON'T CARE! I do what the music suggests to me and what I hope is appropriate for the person I am dancing with (meaning never over her level!). If, as Vin says, they get bored...they are other fish in the ocean to catch and fry. Or, I'll sit out. In terms of moves...plenty of videos out there to get ideas from ...

And in terms of dancing...I've discovered being connected results in a better dance than the moves per se. Music is playful...play with the follower...music is in your face...be more in your face in terms of connection. Not moves, but connection.



If a person disses me however, and then asks me to dance another time I do my very best to give them a workout such that they remain silent forever! (Not talking of honest feedback, but someone who repeatedly critizes almost every second move you do etc.)

Having said that I am trying to expand my horizons, playing around with different ways of dancing etc...as a way to see how different the music feels.

[Sabor]

there are so many dance related, personality related and self-expression related issues that could cause a reaction or another.. it all goes into the 'package of u'.. for one word to sum all of it up it all comes down to 'chemistry' .. everything is a chemical reaction so to speak.. now, if more than 50% of the ladies (making it a majority) u dance with act like they wana run away from u .. then you're chemistry seems noticeably off.. for either a major reason or a few different reasons that add up..

i have no idea what it could be since i never observed u dance.. so, find someone or a friend or two that u trust has good taste and is a good observer and let him/her give u feedback.. and then observe yourself and compare notes..

[raindreamer]

Even if a girl rejects you, keep trying until you find one who appreciates you. Girls are confusing. One can hate you for what you do, while another will absolutely adore you for doing the exact same thing. Find the later girls, and charm them with your salsa....

[nycsalsero]

Thanks guys. Now I do think it really is just certain girls, the "thrill seekers" looking to be pretzeled...

I also think it might be that I am becoming bored with my OWN moves! It's hard for me to add new moves to my repertoire because I always screw it up about 200 times leading it socially before I get it right. But I find that once things get boring for me I just HAVE to play around and find new things to do during the dance.

By the way, I go to a salsa event in NYC almost every night and I see the same really good dancers every night. I almost feel bad for "using them" to get better, to get as good as the other leaders. :)

Like tonight at Link, it seemed like EVERYONE was a much better leader than me. A very motivating environment! I'm so glad to be learning salsa in Manhattan.... :D

[raindreamer]

Remember though that the word "better" is a relative term, and it is dependent on what you are trying to achieve. Merely trying to be like everyone else, or like a few "good" dancers you see somewhere might not be a good idea. It's like how in high school, lots of people wanted to be like the "cool kids." Well, who defines what is cool. I think it's better to just be yourself. Develop your own style of salsa, something that is unique, and which is all about you.

[dgcasey]

Some girls are bitches, definitely. But for the most part these girls seem nice enough, they just don't have such a good time with me.

Well, question me this. Do they like dancing with all the other guys or with just a select couple of guys? Maybe they don't like dancing with anyone but the guy that brung them, but they won't turn you down when you ask. Maybe they just don't like dancing, but they came because their other girlfriends wanted to come.

Now the tough question, are you somebody that they would want to dance with? Yes, you may be good at the steps and yes, you may have some cool moves down. But, are you a showman when you dance? Are you flashy and wild when on the dance floor? Some ladies won't go for that and some will get into it completely. Just because a woman is at the club doesn't necessarily mean she wants to be the center of attention of the floor and if you're drawing that attention, they may not be too thrilled with it.

I'm a pretty quiet guy, even on the dance floor, so rhythm and Latin just don't interest me, but Standard is where I like to shine. And there are women that love to dance with me when Standard is called for and others that know not to even ask me if it's not standard or smooth.

[azzey]

Like tonight at Link, it seemed like EVERYONE was a much better leader than me. A very motivating environment! I'm so glad to be learning salsa in Manhattan.... :D

You said that you find it hard to learn new moves while out social dancing. Have you considered approaching a guy you see and like his style, just telling him "hey, I like your style, where did you learn?" and then ask him to show you something if he seems friendly.

Most advanced dancers will be appreciative that you like their style and would be happy to share something for a few minutes as long as you don't hog their dance time.

This way you may get some valuable tips, feedback on your dancing and variations of moves you already know.

If you do this once a night each time you go out with different guys you will not only gain valuable information, but also find out how/who most of the guys you like learned from and may even find answers to that elusive question of why those girls don't like dancing with you.

[noobster]

Thanks guys. Now I do think it really is just certain girls, the "thrill seekers" looking to be pretzeled...
Do you think part of it might be the 'nyc attitude?' I've noticed lots of followers - and leaders - who look pretty blase most of the time, regardless of whom they're dancing with. Maybe it's a put-on, or maybe - as aimeerouge suggested - they're just concentrating on following.

Or it could be that the more advanced followers really are bored by dancing with someone at your level. Don't take it personally. Just ask someone else. As a beginner salser@ in nyc, it pays to develop a thick skin. :(