Trying too hard

[SDsalsaguy]

I was out at some local salsa clubs this past weekend and I noticed a couple of different people “trying too hard” at the expense of actual dancing. Here’s what I saw from a number of people…

Guys…so busy showing off or “styling” (an unmitigated misnomer if you ask me) that they weren’t even looking at their partners, or dancing super fast/syncopated patterns not in sync with the tempo of the music; dancing beyond what they can lead smoothly, tugging & yanking on their partners to force “fancy” patterns.

Gals…so busy trying to style/look sexy/add sabor that they are missing leads.

Given that salsa is a social dance, shouldn’t leading/following be the priority and come first, with all the other stuff only being added on to whatever measure it does not interfere with leading/following?

[Anonymous]

Hello sdsalsaguy. I understand what you are saying, but really what is trying to hard? Becuase soomeone trys a move that is not perfected yet so their lead looks a little sloppy? So what, that is what social dancing is all about...practicing. Some people are more then happy to just be able to stay a beat and lead a few moves, but there are those who want to take thier danceing to a more advanced level and there is nothing wrong with that either. No, people should not be doing tricks and flips while social dancing.(flips should not be part of dancing at all). Some spend 2/3 of the song doing footwork and 1/3 partnering, but that is their style. While some spend the entire song doing move after move after move. There is not anything wrong with that either. People are different and will of course enjoy different aspects of salsa. We all LOVE dancing and that is what it is all about.
My heart beats clave!!

[SDsalsaguy]

Hey Monstruo, thanks for the comment...especially from someone who's heart beats clave; always a welcome addition! I think you're absolutely right about trying and improving. What I meant was not that there was a problem with such lapses but, rather, when the priority had been shifted away from leading/following.

If your style is footwork based, go for it! I just don't get it when more of the footwork is done not facing your partner then facing your partner! Shine routines can be fantastic, but on a social dance floor, isn't the whole point of partner dancing to dance with a partner?

[peachexploration]

....Given that salsa is a social dance, shouldn’t leading/following be the priority and come first, with all the other stuff only being added on to whatever measure it does not interfere with leading/following?

SD, I'm wondering if this is a problem (sometimes, depending on where you live) that starts when the student first enters a dance school? I've been to a few schools and in my experience, not once did I hear anything about the "essentials" of the salsa. Immediately, you are thrown into patterns and turns or not even the musicality aspect of it. I'm wondering students are more prone to focus on tricks as opposed to dancing because of the initial influence of the instructor/dance class? Any others?

[tj]

Given that salsa is a social dance, shouldn’t leading/following be the priority and come first, with all the other stuff only being added on to whatever measure it does not interfere with leading/following?

I agree.

A significant amount of dancers enjoy being the center of attention and therefore, (with the ones you mention) flash is what appeals to them. And thus, they don't pay attention to the dance connection.

This applies to both men and women.

[danceguy]

I think experimenting is part of any dance...the only way we can improve and master our techniques is by trying them out on the social dance floor. That being said, there has to be a point of balance to this. Depending on the lady, I may try one move I don't know very well during the dance...and see how it goes, but I never use the lady as a practice dummy...I'm there to dance WITH her...and if that just means doing the basic and a few simple turns, then that's all I'll do.

I've observed several other newer Salseros at the places I frequent and most of them are doing lots of fancy moves that I don't do...but they have no sense of timing, their techniques are poorly executed and in my opinion, they really need to work on their basics. I'm the exact opposite, my basics and timing are pretty good (and still have much room for improvement), but I don't have a huge array of fancy moves.

It all depends on the connection with your partner, the music, the energy of the club. One of my best dances ever was with a young lady who told me she wanted to work on her spins...so I threw in everything including the kitchen sink into our dance...and perhaps we didn't look all that great, but man was it a lot of fun and we were both having a great time. On one hand it showed me where I needed to improve my lead on faster techniques, but it also gave me some confidence to let my wild side out a bit more. :P

I always pay close attention to my partner, and if she isn't comfortable with a move for whatever reason, then I don't do it. These days I'm really working on making better eye contact and having a good connection with my partner...I'm not much for shines or solos, and I really enjoy the partner aspect of partner dancing. ;)

SG

[volleybgrl]

Peach, I agree with you on the fact that classes often focus on turn patterns, tricks and footwork when everyone should really be focusing on how they feel during the song. The best practice any instructor ever gave me was to just play a song and freestyle the whole thing. I think it's then and only then when you're able to step out of the structure of patterns and develop your own personal style.

I must confess that I do end up missing a few leads because I am enjoying the music so much (for example: dropping on 1 when he is trying to do a snap), but I don't think that it's terribly wrong...although completely ignoring your partner and dancing solo is. I miss the lead, I laugh about it, he laughs about it, and we carry on. It adds a little more fun. A mistake here and there ends up relaxing me and reminds me that we are social dancing for personal enjoyment and not training to be the world champions of salsa.

[Jack]

That is why I spend so much time on timing and its paying off, Im hearing and dancing to the beat now pretty good now.
Having fun with what combinations I know " not many" but enough for now and I dont drink when I dance either, but love the ladies my gosh!

[squirrel]

Wow, SD, you're so right! I always see people dancing to impress, doing shines and fancy moves they don't even master very well, just to make the audience watch them! It happens to me to interfere with leading at times (i.e. do some fancy stuff and be late on what he intended me to do) but I try to focus on partner dancing more... sometimes at the expense of footwork!

[Stuart]

A few observations on this subject. As a newcomer to Salsa ( about 3 months) I finally braved a salsa club, ones eyes were immediately drawn to what can only be described as the flash dancers and , while initially very impressive and athletic I as a beginner was absoloutely mystified. The dancing seemed to bare no resemblance at all to what I was doing in class although im sure it was. My evening was saved when I saw a couple dancing quitely together the connection between them was electric and lo and behold 50 to 60 % of the moves they were doing I had done in class or were at least recognisable as variations of them.

So in short the athletic salsa is fine but getting that connection even if your moves are straightforward seems to be the object of the dance ( well at least for me).

[Sabor]

first i'd like to point out that i luv difference in peoples style and dance, looks..etc.. but i agree with SD in that whatever it is thats done its really not worth much if connection is not palpable and felt..

they will eventually get passed that stage.. I think/hope.. as they 'age' and get more experience and mature in their soul and feeling it will all come down to connection.. again, its just a matter of time .. but generally this will happen to most.. just takes some a bit more time depending on their talent, experience and circumstances.. and its nice to watch them come around :)

[squirrel]

Sabor, you just dotted the I's and crossed the T's 8)

[SDsalsaguy]

LOL... yeah, even if he didn't capitalize them! :lol:

[squirrel]

:) THAT IS SO CORRECT!

SEE, I DID CAPITALIZE THEM!

[SDsalsaguy]

Only the Is and Ts silly! :wink:

[Sabor]

have i?.. well, i was aiming to dot the T's and cross the I's actually .. shhhhh dont tell anyone :bandit:

[squirrel]

NAH, I WON'T TELL... BUT TO KEEP ME QUIET YOU'LL HAVE TO BRIBE ME

[Sabor]

bribe u :!: .. now how can an absolute angel like me do something like that?! LOL

[squirrel]

actually, it's easy... the first time is more difficult, then it becomes natural ;).

so, what have you thought to give me as a bribe?!

[Sabor]

aren't u the one who should tell me what u want.. or are u giving my first choice depending on my capabilities :lol:

[squirrel]

One night, just for me... of SALSA DANCE!

[Sabor]

:D i can only wish carinita :D

[squirrel]

Just come to Romania then :)

[cocodrilo]

I think experimenting is part of any dance...the only way we can improve and master our techniques is by trying them out on the social dance floor. That being said, there has to be a point of balance to this. Depending on the lady, I may try one move I don't know very well during the dance...and see how it goes, but I never use the lady as a practice dummy...I'm there to dance WITH her...and if that just means doing the basic and a few simple turns, then that's all I'll do.

I've observed several other newer Salseros at the places I frequent and most of them are doing lots of fancy moves that I don't do...but they have no sense of timing, their techniques are poorly executed and in my opinion, they really need to work on their basics. I'm the exact opposite, my basics and timing are pretty good (and still have much room for improvement), but I don't have a huge array of fancy moves.


It all depends on the connection with your partner, the music, the energy of the club. One of my best dances ever was with a young lady who told me she wanted to work on her spins...so I threw in everything including the kitchen sink into our dance...and perhaps we didn't look all that great, but man was it a lot of fun and we were both having a great time. On one hand it showed me where I needed to improve my lead on faster techniques, but it also gave me some confidence to let my wild side out a bit more. :P

I always pay close attention to my partner, and if she isn't comfortable with a move for whatever reason, then I don't do it. These days I'm really working on making better eye contact and having a good connection with my partner...I'm not much for shines or solos, and I really enjoy the partner aspect of partner dancing. ;)

SG


I'd have to agree with SG. How can you know what to expect when dancing with someone for the first time? If someone tries something that I am not familiar with & I miss it, I only hope I'll get it next time round. Sure, it may look a bit sloppy on the dance floor, but isn't that how progress is made, by learning from one's mistakes? To go out there and dance "perfectly" every time, well, where's the challenge? :shock:

[salsachinita]

I think the whole point is PRIORITIZING. What should be the most important factor here.....? Good connection/Enjoyable dance vs. Trying challenging moves/ :shock: dances, what would you prefer?

Well, fortunately for us it is not black & white here.....we don't have to choose one or the other. As dancers we are fully capable of personalising the correct combination of both elements for the partner, for the song.

Of course, no two dances are exactly the same. So it is up to us to pay attention & become sensitive/perceptive to each dance. Of course, moods of the individauls come into play a main part as well. Sometimes we feel like being challenged, other times we just wanna dance.

So a quick sum-up: it is not a negative thing to 'try hard', but NOT at the expense of losing good connection/enjoyment. We are there to have fun remember....?

[cocodrilo]

Well said, Salsachinita! :D

[Sabor]

We are there to have fun remember....?

sometimes one forgets.. but! soon as i'd just catch a glimpse of u .. i'll undoubtedly 'remeber' .. shivers :wink:

[dragon3085]

You know I found my best dances, (and in Karate fight for that matter) have come when I just relax and flow with the music. Just enter my nice little sazen state and lead what my body wants to lead and make google faces at my partner to make her laugh and really not 'try' to be anything. And those are the time I get some recognition from the crowd and the complements. If anyone has gone to my website and saw the clip of my routine I did you'll notice how stiff I get when I am trying to remember a specific sequence. :-)

[borikensalsero]

You know I found my best dances, (and in Karate fight for that matter) have come when I just relax and flow with the music. Just enter my nice little sazen state and lead what my body wants to lead and make google faces at my partner to make her laugh and really not 'try' to be anything. And those are the time I get some recognition from the crowd and the complements. If anyone has gone to my website and saw the clip of my routine I did you'll notice how stiff I get when I am trying to remember a specific sequence. :-)

quick Q, did you mean zazen? Or did you really mean sa-zen, as in Salsa Zen meditation. Hmmmm, I like that. I really like it... A salsa state of meditation. hmmm :D

[peachexploration]

..... If anyone has gone to my website and saw the clip of my routine I did you'll notice how stiff I get when I am trying to remember a specific sequence. :-)

Great routine dragon3085! Love the side by side walks. Very nice. :D

[dragon3085]

Thanks peach, A guy from sweden, first name Ibi, last name- something with a heck of a lot of letters in it. Showed up that one. He called it Fred and Ginger. As far as zazen goes, I think we should call it Salsen- The dancing of salsa without the dancing of Salsa. :-)

[borikensalsero]

Thanks peach, A guy from sweden, first name Ibi, last name- something with a heck of a lot of letters in it. Showed up that one. He called it Fred and Ginger. As far as zazen goes, I think we should call it Salsen- The dancing of salsa without the dancing of Salsa. :-)
Salsen, yeah, that is it, I'll have to start using that one. :D You are a genius. :D

[Ray]

i only use Dips, flips or Crazy moves on demonstrations
not in public.. not even dips.. sometimes i see ppl .. doing for example dips becasue they get exited.. and suddenly drops her.. or hit her against another couple.. well after the dip.. the girl her mood.. went.. ehmm.. bad .. hehe...


so.. they learn from it.. i hope ;)

Regards,
Ray

[Sabor]

i prefer dipping them in chocolate syrup :ladiesma:

[danceguy]

You are such a coquetador Sabor...but caramel is good too. ;)

SG

[SDsalsaguy]

Can't leave out buttrescotch! Mmmm, yum!

[borikensalsero]

This isn't fair, I don't like chocolate, caramel, nor butterscotch!!! How about we keep it with honey :D

[danceguy]

Que? You don't like chocolate Boriken? I guess that leaves more for the rest of us to eat! :roll: :D ;)

Honey is good...hmm...but how about some whipped cream with a few strawberries? :banana: :P

SG

[borikensalsero]

Just the strawberries... Don't like whipped cream either. :D

[danceguy]

Yikes Boriken, what do you eat when you have a sweet tooth?!?!? :shock: :?: :?:

Hmm, how about ice cream? :P

[borikensalsero]

Yikes Boriken, what do you eat when you have a sweet tooth?!?!? :shock: :?: :?:

Hmm, how about ice cream? :P

That's the problem, I don't have a sweet tooth. I don't eat candy, chocolate, muffins, donuts, ice cream, I don't eat any kind of sweets. I don't really like them. My mom always tells me that as a child I never cared to eat even candy. Now, I'm glad, I'm getting older than the lbs aren't being as friendly as they once were.

[peachexploration]

i prefer dipping them in chocolate syrup :ladiesma:

Sabor, see what you started. :lol: :doh: :D

[danceguy]

That's a good thing Boriken...there's no price to be put on good health. Please tell me that you at least have platanos maduros now and then! :? :D

SG

[salsachinita]

:roll: WARNING: This thread is officially hijacked by foodies (who are interested to do more with their ingredients :wink: )

*what's with all the hijacks lately......? :lol: :lol: :lol: *

[salsachinita]

While we are at it, anyone tried strawberries dipped in sweetened condensed milk (the can ones they used for making dulce de leche 8) ).......? This combination is the perfect cure for a number of condition (worthy of a lactose-intolerant one like myself to take a risk for!)....... I won't go into details :wink: .......

Oh, for Boriken or anyone who don't have a sweet tooth, we got savoury dips (we call them dips here anyway in Oz), which are usually cream cheese based. Are they known as dips internationally :? ?

[danceguy]

This thread was about trying too hard, and you my dear, are trying too hard to get things back on topic! 8) :wink:

And I do believe Sabor came up with the delicious idea of dipping Salseras in chocolate...now how can you go wrong with that?!?!? :P :D :lol:

SG

[salsachinita]

delicious idea of dipping Salseras in chocolate...now how can you go wrong with that?!?!? :P :D :lol:

:roll: Ummmmmm.......depending on what you have in mind. There is a time & place for everything :wink: !

*Mental Picture: Salseras running around aimlessly in a crowded club bumping into everything because they've been dipped in chocolate & can't see....!*

*drip......drip......*

:P

[MacMoto]

While we are at it, anyone tried strawberries dipped in sweetened condensed milk (the can ones they used for making dulce de leche 8) ).......?
Yes, used to be my favourite -- bring back childhood memories.

This combination is the perfect cure for a number of condition (worthy of a lactose-intolerant one like myself to take a risk for!)....... I won't go into details :wink: .......
For curative properties, I tend to go for strawberries + chocolate ice cream + whipped cream (no problem with dairies here)... can't get decent strawberries at this time of year though. :( I so need a treat right now. Hope I'll get to go out for some salsa dancing tonight at least.

[salsachinita]

:( I so need a treat right now. Hope I'll get to go out for some salsa dancing tonight at least.

:!: Of course, SALSA is one of the most potent cure-all known to humankind. Few experiences can top the 'post-salsa-bliss' state :wink: .

8) I am sure we all agree :P !

*PS: my "Salsa Stalker T-shirt was a hit at the clubs last night :D *

[cocodrilo]

While we are at it, anyone tried strawberries dipped in sweetened condensed milk (the can ones they used for making dulce de leche 8) ).......? This combination is the perfect cure for a number of condition (worthy of a lactose-intolerant one like myself to take a risk for!)....... I won't go into details :wink: .......

Oh, for Boriken or anyone who don't have a sweet tooth, we got savoury dips (we call them dips here anyway in Oz), which are usually cream cheese based. Are they known as dips internationally :? ?

Yeah, the Japanese LOVE drizzling condensed milk over their strawberries. I used to eat it on bread as a kid. Now it tastes like condensed SUGAR to me... :?
In the US, we say "dip". There's cream-cheese dip, bean dip, guacamole and a whole slew of others!

[tj]

In the US, we say "dip". There's cream-cheese dip, bean dip, guacamole and a whole slew of others!

For the longest time, I didn't like guacamole - until I finally had the real thing! Wow, what a difference! Now I'm hooked on the stuff!

Gotta be careful of the garlic though! :roll: :wink:

[peachexploration]

A few observations on this subject. As a newcomer to Salsa ( about 3 months) I finally braved a salsa club, ones eyes were immediately drawn to what can only be described as the flash dancers and , while initially very impressive and athletic I as a beginner was absoloutely mystified. The dancing seemed to bare no resemblance at all to what I was doing in class although im sure it was. My evening was saved when I saw a couple dancing quitely together the connection between them was electric and lo and behold 50 to 60 % of the moves they were doing I had done in class or were at least recognisable as variations of them.

So in short the athletic salsa is fine but getting that connection even if your moves are straightforward seems to be the object of the dance ( well at least for me).

Yeah Stuart, flash can get old pretty quick. In Boriken's signature line there's this statement: "Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication". That statement says it all.

[Sagitta]

All this talk of food and sweetened condesnsed milk brings back the memories. Used to put it on bread too, cocodrilo, as a youth. had it plain, plus used it to make toffee. Must make it one of these days.

[Sabor]

You are such a coquetador Sabor...but caramel is good too. ;)

SG

who me!? ..what about u? .. it has been said that "when a man points a finger at somebody he must remember that the other four are point back at him" :twisted: :wink: LOL..

naaa.. all the guys here are angels, if in mucho bien desquise :mrgreen: .. ladies... trust us... pleeeeeeeez! :lol: .. we promise to dip u toes first! :ladiesma:

[danceguy]

Indeed my friend, you are right! I was voted biggest DF flirt last year...so yes...many fingers are pointing my way! 8) :oops: :wink:

Dipping toes first? How about an entire body dip? :twisted: :P :shock: :D

SG