Who hijacked the Two Step?

[G & B]

Having danced the two step for several for several years, more then ten and less then fifty, I noticed some of the women I dance with are not on the same step. I recently attended a dance lesson for the two step and realized they are no longer teaching people to do the two step, but are teaching them to walk to Country music! What is going on?

[b19wh33l5]

Which step do you use?

[G & B]

The country two step is, step left-right together left-step right-step, women on the opposite step.

[Vince A]

Was this beginner's class? I can understand the walking if it was such a class . . . as dancing in its most basic form is called "walking."

I have a video where they taught some beginners and newcomers the 2 Step, and told them to walk in groups of "fours." The video finally gets into the count at the end of the tape. The video also teaches basic turns in this walking fashion . . . I thought it was strange, but if I didn't know anything about the dance, I could remember 1, 2, 3, 4 just tad easier than Q, Q, S, S . . . maybe.

I've also seen a group class where they instructors were trying to teach "being smooth" in the 2 Step . . . and they had everyone walking instead of dancing to the music . . . maybe this is what you saw?

There is a lot to be said about a natural step and dancing . . .

[G & B]

They were beginning classes, but no mention was ever made of the correct step. I went on the web Saturday and noticed that a web site described the two step as a walk walk walk walk in a quick quick slow slow manner. I emailed this person to ask where this came from and his response was "Nobody dances Step,Together, Step, Step anymore. The "together" step is replaced with another forward walking step. So, the feet pass on all steps...no closing steps, no "together" steps. This change took place in the early 1990's." Of course, I responded with anyone that has been dancing for more then ten years, dances the two step with a step together step step.

After that I decided to go on the forum and ask if anyone else knows what happened.

[G & B]

Sorry Vince A, I missed your comment, "There is a lot to be said about a natural step and dancing . . ."

I agree with you 100% But, as Buddy did with the Night Club Two Step, if you choreograph a new dance, name your new child don't advertise it to be something it is not!

[Vince A]

Sorry Vince A, I missed your comment, "There is a lot to be said about a natural step and dancing . . ."

I agree with you 100% But, as Buddy did with the Night Club Two Step, if you choreograph a new dance, name your new child don't advertise it to be something it is not!
And I agree with you . . . I also think that you know what you're supposed to be doing. Yes?

[Steve Pastor]

Couple things on this topic.
In order to do quick steps in time to the music (especially if it's a fast one) that second "quick" step with the right foot has to be pretty small. I can see how "step together" can come out pretty much like quick quick.
The "slow" steps can be a bit longer, because you have more time to complete them.
I gues it comes down to what you emphasize.
As far as the walking part goes...
I know some people who don't even try to keep up with quick quick slow, slow when it's a fast two step. They just walk (No quicks). I know lots of people who try to do quick quick slow, slow, and ending up doing it as fast as they can, but not as fast as the music. I usually sit out those really fast two steps, because in my experience most women can't go that fast. I'm always pleasantly surprised when I find someone who can.
In learning Argentine Tango I've discovered that the way tango people dance to a "faster, more upbeat energetic type of tango" called milonga works really well for those fast two steps.
Milonga - the dance - is stepping on each beat. Step step step step. It sounds like it might be boring, but when you can turn anyway on any step, or go in any direction on any step, it gets pretty interesting.
Now, if only I could find someone to do it with.
Doing milonga to two step was the first thing I thought of when I read your post.

[Peaches]

In learning Argentine Tango I've discovered that the way tango people dance to a "faster, more upbeat energetic type of tango" called milonga works really well for those fast two steps.
Milonga - the dance - is stepping on each beat. Step step step step. It sounds like it might be boring, but when you can turn anyway on any step, or go in any direction on any step, it gets pretty interesting.
Now, if only I could find someone to do it with.
Doing milonga to two step was the first thing I thought of when I read your post.


Ooh, ooh! Me! Me! I wanna try milonga to a two-step! Me! Me!

[G & B]

Vince A, Yes!

Steve, the two step is a quick quick slow slow. The two step their teaching now is a walk walk walk walk (in a quick quick slow slow manner). The step together is way different then a complete walk step, which throws off the timing between a person doing the two step and someone walking.

The question goes back to who changed, and why, the two step from step together step step to walk walk walk walk?

[kayak]

Isn't there a similiar debate in Foxtrot over whether a basic should close with the QQ as side-close or if a continuity styling is better? Still, they are both a Foxtrot. There is a guy who has been doing 2-step for a very long time in my area. I asked him about the other basic and he explained that it used to be quite common, but the passing QQ was also common. It did not make a lot of difference because many of the turns at that time were in the line of dance (LOD). So the difference between a closing QQ and a continuity QQ with a small step is not important.

The way he described the change is that as country music modernized, the 2-step became a much more open dance. So now a ton of the turns are lead out of promonade. He was telling me that the toughest habit he has to work on is the older style promonade had the feet closing and rocking back so both the man and woman faced forward. As the cw dancers got more talented they noticed that the guy facing forward in promonade tended to pull the lady's shoulders slightly out of line and she ends up a little out of balance during her inside turns.

The continuity step style allowed the man to continue down the LOD and be slightly in front and turned toward the woman in a L shape. As they dance down the LOD, he dances sideways with a cross over step. This allows the lady to be better ballanced in her turns. The added benefit is that the continuity step allows for the number of Qs to be varied much easier. So the man can lead different combinations of QQQQSS QSSQSS etc much cleaner than closing the feet.

Finally, patterns like pretzl runs and lariates never have an opportunity for a closing QQ because the feet are either crossed to square up the hips at the beginning or split while the couple passes each other. So these moves require a passing QQ. Then end result seems to be that most dancers are not closing the QQ but allowing it to pass and the key focus is on holding the second S long enough to show a distinct difference in pattern footwork.

[G & B]

Yes, there are syncopations with most dances and couples competing need to work them out together or dancres need to learn them properly so when they lead their partner both will be on the same page.

But the porblem is someone has taken it upon themselves to change the step pattern of a dance that has been around for more then thirty years. The new step pattern, walk walk walk walk does not fit with the correct pattern, step together step step. There is a half of step difference, which puts a couple out of step.

What is the step patern for the fox trot and when was it changed, or has it been?

[Vince A]

Oh my . . .

[Steve Pastor]

Yes, Vince. Oh, my.

[Vince A]

Steve, just think . . . all of these years . . . wasted . . . . doing it wrong???

What am I going to tell my Pro???

. . . sorry . . . for going off the deep end with this . . .

[kayak]

But the porblem is someone has taken it upon themselves to change the step pattern of a dance that has been around for more then thirty years. The new step pattern, walk walk walk walk does not fit with the correct pattern, step together step step. There is a half of step difference, which puts a couple out of step.


G&B, step together step step is still four weight transfers. So you should absolutely not end up a beat off. The gentleman who sometimes reverts to that basic can lead any woman and not miss a beat.

The same with foxtrot. Doing SSQQ as walk walk side close is the same number of weight transfers as walk walk walk walk.

I mentioned the other part because I suspect the answer is when a specific style starts consistently winning the competitions, it becomes the norm for social dancers. Vince probably sees the style differences as someone pushes the envelope every few years.

[Vince A]

What do ya' mean . . . "every few years?"

I push it everytime I compete and social dance . . .

I'm not knocking what you wrote, and I sorta do exactly what you said . . . it was just "such a mouthful" . . . I had to read it several times to get it through my thick skull! Are you a technical writer . . . I mean, do you do that for a living?

[Steve Pastor]

I should probably stay out of this at this point, but...
If the woman just walks, and all of her steps are slows, when the man does a quick quick, the couple is "off".
(In Argentine Tango this is an accepted practice, but unless the woman has learned that is is not a problem, she will often do a quick quick to get back on the "same" foot as the man.)
So if the woman does walk, walk, walk, and the man does step together walk, walk they will be on "different" feet, and the same feet with each repetition of the pattern - either walk, walk, walk taken as slows, or step together step step done as quick quick slow, slow.
I'm going to guess that this may not help at all, but I couldn't help myself.

PS If you ever come to Portland for one of the Tango festivals, Peaches,...

[Peaches]

My brother in law is close to Portland, so there's a distinct possibility. :-)

One question, and this may or may not be relevant...when you (all) say "step, together" is the "together" part an actual change of weight, or is it a tap step? If it's an actual weight change, then are you (all) just talking about the difference in passing the feet or not--aka, two walk steps vs. a closed change?

Either way, and take this with multiple HUGE grains of salt since I know next to nothing about 2-step, does it really matter so long as both leader and follower are doing QQSS? It seems that it'd be a small difference in the distance traveled (or not) on the second Q--which, if the woman is following, wouldn't really matter. Does it make a difference in terms of advanced patterns?

[kayak]

There is a dance hall that is focused on square dancing in my area. So the callers and instructors are all 70ish and they still teach the step together step step pattern. The step together is a full weight change. That is why it doesn't matter if the feet pass or just come together. The couple should still end up on opposit feet.

They are the only group teaching that way in my area and probably have been teaching the same way for 50 years. Everyone else passes the feet.

[Steve Pastor]

One thing I've learned is that it's possible to approach other dances the way Argentine Tango is supposed to be danced. There are no patterns if you lead well, and the follower follows your lead (or even doesn't).
BUT, if I am doing Two Step, I would REALLY like it if the woman does quick quick slow, slow no matter what else she does. No matter how many turns or pivots, or changes of direction we do, we always end up on the "same" foot: I step with my left, she steps with her right.
This way she doesn't have to look at my feet when we end some weird combination that feels right at the moment.
Of course the man has to keep doing the quick quick slow, slow, or be good enough to compensate somehow when the "pattern ends".
Every time I get someone to go with this program, they start being able to follow really complicated stuff that is, again, done as an improvisation.
This same guideline works for the other dances I do (except AT of course). Often my partners will get weirded out, but if they just stick with the basic pattern of steps, letting their feet take turns and doing quick quick slow, slow... it all works out.
Anyhow, I think most of us are on the same page here.

[Peaches]

In my 5-minute intro to 2-step a few private lessons ago, that's exactly how my teacher started off. Just keep doing QQSS, to start with, and you should be fine. And, it pretty much worked--I was able to follow simple turns and steps and whatnot--not prettily--but I didn't have a problem following it.

Incidentally, that's also how I learned Hustle. I was just told, whatever you do, or wherever I send you, just keep your feet going 1,2&3. It's worked for me so far.

[kayak]

What do ya' mean . . . "every few years?"

I push it everytime I compete and social dance . . .

I'm not knocking what you wrote, and I sorta do exactly what you said . . . it was just "such a mouthful" . . . I had to read it several times to get it through my thick skull! Are you a technical writer . . . I mean, do you do that for a living?

I was not trying to offend you. Just to defer to the competition experience you write about all the time.

Styles change over time as the pros and judges determine what makes cleaner looking patterns. The size of circle of a hand lead is a current example kind of rippling through the dance circles. The current trend is towards much bigger leads than just holding up an arm and hoping the lady turns under it.

[Vince A]

I was not trying to offend you. Just to defer to the competition experience you write about all the time.
Sorry kayak, you honestly did not offend me, nor did I take it that way. I just hope I didn't rub you raw??

Part of my job as moderator is to challenge others in an attempt to keep good conversations going. I thought that this was a very good thread, and it needed to be ironed out.

Also, never, ever take what I say as gospel . . . cause it isn't . . . and as far as competitions go, I'm just and Intermediate/Advanced dancer, and the 2 Step is my worst dance!

Besides . . . . . . . 99% of the time . . . I'm just not serious . . . I've learned never to take things serious . . . my heart and mind love me for it!

Styles change over time as the pros and judges determine what makes cleaner looking patterns. The size of circle of a hand lead is a current example kind of rippling through the dance circles. The current trend is towards much bigger leads than just holding up an arm and hoping the lady turns under it.
Yea, I mentioned "the size of the circle of a hand lead" a couple of weeks ago, and was eaten alive for it, so I dropped it . . . for now. But it is one of those "new things" that has recently surfaced!

[kayak]

BUT, if I am doing Two Step, I would REALLY like it if the woman does quick quick slow, slow no matter what else she does. No matter how many turns or pivots, or changes of direction we do, we always end up on the "same" foot: I step with my left, she steps with her right.
This way she doesn't have to look at my feet when we end some weird combination that feels right at the moment.
Of course the man has to keep doing the quick quick slow, slow, or be good enough to compensate somehow when the "pattern ends".


Why don't you do the same number of Qs and Ss that you are leading her to do?

[kayak]

Sorry kayak, you honestly did not offend me, nor did I take it that way. I just hope I didn't rub you raw??

Nope, I was just uncertain of your response :smile: The good news is I will be able to recognize you at dance events as the guy standing out on the floor rereading that post trying to figure out who is doing what?

Why were people up in arms over the bigger arm movement? It seems like it helps the lady's with faster and more balanced turns. We all know that 2-step puts a lot of fast thinking pressure on the guys and fast turning pressure on the women.

[Vince A]

I think that you were in on some of the conversations . . . in the Salsa Forum re: stopping a follows' spin.

I wasn't really eaten alive . . . just some comments back to me that didn't make sense. This what the Pros are teaching . . . just what we've been talking about!

[kayak]

Oh yea, they didn't like my shoulder catch either. These seem pretty common to me. A simple open hand on the shoulder to change the direction of momentum. It seems like I know steps in 2-step, salsa, waltz, cha cha, nc2s, wcs, etc. that all use a shoulder catch at some point. I couldn't quite follow all of it. I go to salsa clubs and the guys are down below the girl's skirt and use knee catches to keep her in a continuous CBL.

[Vince A]

Oh yea, they didn't like my shoulder catch either. These seem pretty common to me. A simple open hand on the shoulder to change the direction of momentum. It seems like I know steps in 2-step, salsa, waltz, cha cha, nc2s, wcs, etc. that all use a shoulder catch at some point.
Yea, that's the thread . . . and I agree with you. I use the shoulder catch quite a bit, esp in 2 Step, although my Pro literally breaks my arm if I use it in WCS.

I couldn't quite follow all of it. I go to salsa clubs and the guys are down below the girl's skirt and use knee catches to keep her in a continuous CBL.
I couldn't follow it either . . . didn't know which response some of the answers were referrring to . . .

Besides shoulders (and the knees that you mentioned), I also use belly catches, which surprises many followers - it's a nice backup move! Of course there are hip and waist catches in almost every dance. My wife uses my sides, my waist, my hips, and my knees . . .

[Steve Pastor]

Kayak: The fact that the man continues to do the same thing was not stated explicitly. (I guess I thought that was obvious.) Not too long ago, I was dancing with a woman I considerer to be one of the best where I dance CW. We did some gawd awful amalgamation of moves, and when we were done, she looked down at my feet an exclaimed, "You're still on the beat!". "Well, yeah", I laughed.
But, that's just most of the time.
In Night Club Two Step one of my unusual moves is to not take the slow step to the side. I turn my torso, though, so it feels as if I've stepped. When we both take our next step, one of us (me) is stepping on the "wrong" foot. I usually move forward when I do this. As I mentioned before, this is perfectly acceptable in Argentine Tango, but it IS a learned skill (even in tango, women get confused when I do this). The women with more presence will not let this bother them and will continue with their steps. Others will realize that something is "wrong", and try to compensate. I usually end this after one slow, quick quick, having learned that it's usually best not to push my luck too far. (You end it my doing the same thing - skip a slow side step.)

PS I LOVED the kneel on one knee and stop the woman's turn with the hand behind the leg move. I may have to start using that one again.

[kayak]

Cool, sounds like we are on the same foot :) I have not used the fake step in nc2step, but do like it in cha cha.

Back on the original question, I think the trend towards all the leads maintaining momentum makes for much cleaner lines. So I can see why the step close got displaced. I am always intrigued by how different women like to cover very different amounts of travel around the floor.

[Peaches]

What's the purpose of using a fake step? Is it just to easily transition into (and out of) what would be called, in AT, the cross system? I just don't know enough to see the purpose of it, unless it's to set up for certain leads.

Also, what do you mean about women's prefernces in covering ground? Isn't that something set by the leader?

[jschaab]

What's the purpose of using a fake step?

The goal in my experience is to get on the same foot as the follow (or to return to normal).
Its necessary for instance if you lead your partner into shadow, and want to take a side step with her (otherwise you would go in opposite directions). alternatively you may want to actually take side steps in opposite directions while facing each other.

[Peaches]

Thanks for clarifying.

[kayak]

Also, what do you mean about women's prefernces in covering ground? Isn't that something set by the leader?

The idea my friends have been working with me on is that women even about the same height will have different strides and energy. So for example, the natural length of their chaine and pivot turns will be different. If the guy can get a sense of where her best ballance is and adjust his body position and lead to match her strengths, he can lengthen or shorten their dance styling to make a much sharper presentation.

[Peaches]

Ohhhhh...

[Steve Pastor]

"The size of circle of a hand lead is a current example kind of rippling through the dance circles. The current trend is towards much bigger leads than just holding up an arm and hoping the lady turns under it."
Just for purposes of discussion...
Is this one an incomplete off the hip sort of statment? Or, when people make up routines for competitions, do they really (not) lead turns so differently?
For instance, I would never expect to just hold up an arm and expect a turn. There would be a certain amount of pressure in the direction I wanted the turn to go, and it would go with the woman's next step, and (hopefully) take into account where her balance is.
I've seen people dance routines, even in big shows in Las Vegas, where it's obvious they are just doing choreagraphy rather than really dancing lead / follow. It really detracts from the dance for me.
So, here is yet another question. Is this something judges look for, or not?

PS Silly Question - Who hijacked the Who hijacked the two step thread?

[Vince A]

Not sure if the judges could actually "see" the actual connection in the turns or not, but I do know that judges can tell if it is L&F versus "a routine."

In fact, when I started working with my new Pro several months ago, I put her into multiple "Attitude" turns . . . there are other names for them!

She let me go through them, but when we critiqued the video . . . she started on the path of correcting my lead for turns/spins . . . elbows, up/down the ramp, which fingers, my fingersinto her fingers, how to hold my hand, large circles, small circles, etc . . .

I'm getting better and did them quite well (she says) in my last comp performance at the first of this month.

I think "we" hijacked the 2 Step thread . . . maybe???

[kayak]

... but we are still on the topic of how the same dance changes over time.

The size of the circle and how the leader brings his hand up is all lead/follow. I guess one school of thought is to use a fairly small circle as the lead and the guy's arm moves some but not tons. The other camp thinks the guy should make a much bigger circle. I think the idea is the larger lead creates more momentum and a crisper turn with better arm angles.

[Vince A]

I think the idea is the larger lead creates more momentum and a crisper turn with better arm angles.
Yea, I also use the larger circles, pulsing, but added the reduction to smaller circles after my Pro taught me how to do it . . . haven't got my wife to read my intentions yet though:confused:

[G & B]

Been too busy dancing to respond to the forum. Yes, there is weight transfer and a good lead will lead their partner around the floor. It goes back to it's not smooth!!!! If one person two steps and the other walks you will be a half a step off. I hate to repeat it, but I will, if you come up with a new dance, give your baby a name. Don't call it something it is not!

[kayak]

If someone is doing a totally different dance to the same music, you will know it without a doubt. For instance, chacha doesn't progress, has an obvious chachacha and has a totally different count. NC2Step slows it down even more and also doesn't progress. Plus, it also has a totally different count. If someone is doing one of those dances while others are 2-stepping, even a totally untrained person would say they were different dances.

I don't think there is enough difference in styling between your 2-step dances to be seperated. Four weight transfers in 6 beats progressing around the floor is very 2-step. Little differences like passing or closing the feet is styling. I doubt someone on the sidelines would even notice a difference in the two without some study. If you and your partner are ending up on different feet, then someone has to be missing a weight transfer.

Like I mentioned before, I am sure the winners of big comps set the standard for how styling will go for a while. Probably all you have to do is win a bunch and we will all be talking about the old days when people passed their QQs :)

[danceallstyles]

I think there are different things happening here. First of all, no dance is danced universally the same everywhere you dance. Especially not any dance done commonly in a Night Club setting. When two-step was codified for teaching by organizations like the UCWDC, they decided that the most universal form of the basic was to pass the feet on the quicks. This is the way it is done most places now, and it is the way that all dance studios teach it. (I'm sure there is an exception somewhere, but all dance studios I know teach it that way). If you think about the various changes that have been made to dances when they were codified, this is the least of it. American Rumba, created by Arthur Murray, looks nothing remotely like the cuban dance called Rumba, which is traditionally a man's solo dance with a lot of african style movement in it. By the way, no one seems to be complaining that we no longer hold our partner's neck when we dance two-step.

[The Baby]

In order to do quick steps in time to the music (especially if it's a fast one) that second "quick" step with the right foot has to be pretty small. I can see how "step together" can come out pretty much like quick quick.
The "slow" steps can be a bit longer, because you have more time to complete them.
I gues it comes down to what you emphasize.


Hmmm, I asked my husband/teacher about your explanation and he responded with this...

If you step on the 1, the 2, the 3(holding 4), the 5(hold 6), then all steps have been taken at the speed, and therefore have no reason to not be the same size.

[Vince A]

. . . By the way, no one seems to be complaining that we no longer hold our partner's neck when we dance two-step.
We . . . . uh . . . don't do that anymore???

[chuck4788]

Just an observation from an amateur who enjoys dancing. I learned four different footwork styles for 2-step and know of a fifth. Four of these are progressive and use all of the traditional 2-step patterns.

The first style that I learned is that taught since the early-mid nineties, QQSS, done to 1-2-3-pause-5-pause count, and is a smooth dance like foxtrot or waltz. This is my favorite style and to me the most fun to dance. I like fast music for this style such as George Strait “Firemen”, Hal Ketchum “Past the Point of Rescue”, Sara Evans “Bucket of Suds”, Clint Black “Cadillac Jack Favor”, or Leann Rimes “Nothing Better to Do”. If you want to have some fun with this style try it with “Mambo No 5”.

The second is done to music without a good back beat and is the walk-walk-walk-walk style, one step on each beat of the music, I call it Single Step. If I haven't danced this style for long time I must use QQSS counting (but not the rhythm) when starting the first dance to help me time my leads. This foot work is a good way to start a beginner, it makes it easier to correct bad habits like bouncing and arm pumping. I used this to start my daughter dancing 2-step and the transition to QQSS was easy. I have a friend who uses this method on new dancers.

The third step style I learned is Triple Two and works well to slow music (to me), triple steps are done in place of the S-S. This style has a side to side swagger that gives it a different appearance than the smooth movements of QQSS 2-step.

The fourth style is not progressive and is probably a 2-Step in name only, it is called Arizona 2-step. Its foot work is Q-Q-S-tap-S-tap, the result is you follow every beat of the music. This is obviously a regional dance and works on a crowded dance floor to slow 2-step music. This style looks somewhat like a slow smooth ECS.

The last is the shuffle style of 2-step where the QQS is a triple step, this foot work causes a slow down in travel speed during the triple and a speed up during the Slow. I have a friend who still dances this way and the resulting changes in upper body velocity make it hard for followers who are used to passing their feet during the QQS.

[Steve Pastor]

chuck:
I don't disagree with anything you wrote, but here's a bit more info.
What you call Single Step, a bunch of us call One Step, and I find that most of what I learned in Argentine Tango Milonga will work (except dancing on "the wrong foot")

What you have been taught as Arizona 2-step is the same as was taught in Arthur Murray Studios as their version of Linsy Hop, or Swing, or some such. I've notes from the Murray books that came out from the 40s and 50s.

QQS as a progressive dance? Same count as NightClub and salsa. Where did you learn that one?

[QQS_Girl]

hey g&b. yes, the way that two step is taught now almost everywhere is all straight forward walks (for the leader) in a qqss timing. why is this? well, for one reason the competitive side of country dance has evolved two step to this structure. this is partly because we dance this dance as a "smooth" category dance, and the step together, step step doesn't make for a smooth, linear flow like all straight forward walks do. as for why everyone now in clubs is dancing the dance this way, i guess the influence from the competitive circuit is far reaching.

[chuck4788]

Quick response and I'm sorry about the QQS misunderstanding. I was referring to the slowing of fwd movement during the QQS portion of the basic QQSS, and how that made it hard for most followers.

Yeah I called it Single Step, DW calls it One Step.

I noticed in a prior post that you sometimes go to Bushwhackers in Tualitin, we've been there a few times (one of our sons lives in Tigard).

Thanks for the additional info on "Arizona" two step, that explains why most of the patterns look like ECS. Of course in the class we took the instructor said it was Arizona's own. Thank you.

[etp777]

FWIW, we were taught QQSS (or SSQQ? Can't remember) at our studio, AND had hold around the partner's neck at my studio.

[Steve Pastor]

Ha! That's funny. A few years ago I met a woman from Chicago who was out here in the Portland area. When I did the right hand over the shoulder thing (which is always how I dance two step ), she said "Oh, redneck style."

I'm glad this style is alive and sh*t kickin' somewhere like Chicago!

QQSS SSQQ It works out pretty much the same once you get going.

[Steve Pastor]

Chuck:
I love Bushwhackers.
Good mix of partner and line dances. Lots of people to dance with. Big dance floor. I hit the place Thursday and Saturday almost every week. Their web site used to have pictures, but the new owners dropped them with the new web site, otherwise I would post a link.
Maybe one day I'll post a few pictures so anyone visiting will be able to spot me and say "hi" if you come out here.

[etp777]

How're you supposed to hold your beer if you don't hold her like that? :)

And that is reason pro who was teaching that class gave for the hold.

[chuck4788]

Well Steve next time we're in town I'll shot you an e-mail. We were at Bushwahackers 3 or 4 times in Aug-Sep and try to stop by everytime we go thru Portland.

[justvinnie]

hey g&b. yes, the way that two step is taught now almost everywhere is all straight forward walks (for the leader) in a qqss timing. why is this? well, for one reason the competitive side of country dance has evolved two step to this structure. this is partly because we dance this dance as a "smooth" category dance, and the step together, step step doesn't make for a smooth, linear flow like all straight forward walks do. as for why everyone now in clubs is dancing the dance this way, i guess the influence from the competitive circuit is far reaching.

Why does everyone call two step "smooth". I was taught that it was a hybrid dance incorporating elements of smooth and rhythm. The first two steps, the quicks are for positioning the two parties, the first slow is smooth and travels, the second slow is a presentation or Latin hit.

[kayak]

I could be describing this incorrectly, but I think the "smooth" aspect comes from the even body flight. The step type leads from the upper body center and is in the rhythm style. So it is different from the true smooth dances like waltz. I was taught to have a distinct hold on both slows.

[justvinnie]

I could be describing this incorrectly, but I think the "smooth" aspect comes from the even body flight. The step type leads from the upper body center and is in the rhythm style. So it is different from the true smooth dances like waltz. I was taught to have a distinct hold on both slows.

Not sure I understand what you're saying.

[Steve Pastor]

The people who use the word "smooth" were most likely taught in a studio. This word pretty much is not used if you learn two step in the kind of place it came from, which would be country western dance bars and dance halls.
Most ballroom dances came from somewhere else, and were "standardized" by studios and people who judge competitions.
Although many people will never go there, two step unaffected by studios and competitions is danced many places in the US.

[kayak]

Not sure I understand what you're saying.
Welcome :)

Vince and QQS_Girl can probably help with a better explanation. The way I would describe it is the shoulders stay even as we move down the floor and do not have the bounce of a dance like polka. The direction of travel is straighter down the line of dance than Foxtrot. So it is kind of a smooth dance.

However, it also has the rhythm category of steps instead of smooth. With the rhythm dances, like ChaCha, the step is taken near the ball of the foot with our bodies moving before the step. The true smooth dances, like waltz, have heel leads and pivots that 2-step rarely or maybe even never uses.

The part about the SS is I learned it as quick hold, quick hold. It sounds a little different than your description?

[justvinnie]

Welcome :)

Vince and QQS_Girl can probably help with a better explanation. The way I would describe it is the shoulders stay even as we move down the floor and do not have the bounce of a dance like polka. The direction of travel is straighter down the line of dance than Foxtrot. So it is kind of a smooth dance.

However, it also has the rhythm category of steps instead of smooth. With the rhythm dances, like ChaCha, the step is taken near the ball of the foot with our bodies moving before the step. The true smooth dances, like waltz, have heel leads and pivots that 2-step rarely or maybe even never uses.

The part about the SS is I learned it as quick hold, quick hold. It sounds a little different than your description?

That sounds a lot like how I learned it.

I was taught that smooth and rhythm is simply distinguished by weight distribution. A smooth dance stays between the feet on the beat while rhythm is when complete weight transfer occurs on the stepping foot. Thus the center of gravity moves first in a smooth dance yielding a slow flowing look while the center of levity moves first in a rhythmic dance to yield a snappier and sharp look. The consequence of how your center of levity and gravity moves determines if it is a heel or toe lead.

Whether a dance has rise and fall, lilt, swing, sway, shaping or travels is independent of it being smooth or rhythm. Basically then, I was taught different dances merely differed in whether they use these basic elements as well as when they use it in combination with weight transfer to define the character of the dance. My instructor is very technical and explains all these things to me as well as what each dance uses.

Since two step uses both smooth and rhythmic technique, it is accordingly labeled a hybrid dance by her. Like I mentioned before, the first slow is smooth while the second is rhythmic. Now, you always want to step right on the beat and hold for the whole slow. Thus my instructor wants me to do the basic as such:

If you count "quick-quick-slow-and-slow-and..." with even timing for every word, I would take a step on the first "slow" but keep my weight between my feet and transfer it to the stepping foot over the entire "slow-and". For the second slow my weight is completely on the stepping foot on "slow" while hitting a line or presentation. I maintain this line for the duration of "and" and only step out to quickly hit the "quick-quick" again.

There is no rise and fall, lit, swing, or sway in two step. My instructor calls it the motionless dance for that reason, but makes up for it the constant spinning. According to her, it is insane to do all that other stuff while traveling AND spinning.

I hope that makes sense. If it doesn't, don't mind me, I've only been doing this for a little over a year.

vinnie

[chuck4788]

I like justvinnie's description.

As far as "QQSS forever" as taught in beginning classes intermediate 2-Step also has rythym changes such as QQQQ or QQSQQS. My partner likes to do double spins on QQQQ and when I lead those turns for others they often do the turns as QQSS so I have a 50% chance of ending up on the wrong foot! But it is still fun.

Hey Steve, we will be coming thru Portland in early April, so I'll send you an email so we can meet at Bushwhackers.

[kayak]

Ya know, I had that same problem. Then someone taught me to accelerate my lead at the end of the first chaine' going into the second. That way, the lady really only has the option of doing QQQQ. It seems to work pretty well for me now.

[Steve Pastor]

Chances are VERY good that if you are there on a Thursday or Saturday, I'll be there. (I think those are the best nights.) I could even be talked into going out there another night to meet someone from out of town.

[Steve Pastor]

OK guys. Women ALWAYS end up on the wrong foot, or don;t know if they are doing a quick or a slow, when they do that stuff. It annoys the heck out of me.
One of the guys even told one of the women "you always do two turns when a guy leads a turn at Bushwhackers".
So, chuck, do YOU end up on the wrong foot, or does she?
And what about you kayak? Any wrong foot problems?

I always tell my partners to stay with qqs s and we can do ANY number of turns, spins, windows, just about anything and not get messed up.

Are you guys staying with qqs s?

???

[kayak]

I think if we as a couple are getting our feet mismatched, it is usually the guy whose lead ends up off. I was taught there are certain turns that can be done on QQ rhythms and other turns that can be done on S rhythms. With each beat, I control whether the lady is doing a S or a Q by my lead.

So taking just two different type of turns. Chaine's are done on the QQ and Pivot turns on on the S.

If our goal was three traveling spins out of promenade, it is tough to stick with QQSS and make it workout. The lady would have to do chaine', pivot, pivot, chaine', SS. So the guy's arm lead has to be fast loop, slow half loop, slow half loop, fast loop. Plus, pivot turns require a momentum change. So our three traveling spins would have a hickup right in the middle as we change from chaine' to pivot and back.

I think a better plan is to lead the three traveling spins as QQ QQ QQ SS. That way, we are just leading three chaine's. That makes our lead more manageable. We just have three fast loops. To make sure she doesn't revert to a S after each loop, we accellerate the last third of the loop. That way, there is no option of doing a S. Our job as leaders is to just mark the time with our footwork and make sure we don't also revert to a S as our brains are trying to think that fast.

[Steve Pastor]

Yikes! Had to look that one up!
http://www.ehow.com/how_2249187_perform-chaine-turn-dance-move.html

I try to match the lead with the step: a fast one if she will be turing on a quick, a slower one if she will be turning on the slow.
If I get that dear in the headlights look, I will sometimes do the turn or turns myself just to show that I'm not asking them to do anything that can't be done.
I have, though, what to some women is a nasty habit of not leading what they think I'm going to lead.
I note that with your QQ QQ QQ S S
LR LR LR L R
if I do QQ S S QQ S not altering my steps
LR L R LR L
we are indeed on opposite feet.
I kinda feel like if she took an extra step to do an extra spin that wasn't led, and ended up on the wrong foot, she should fix it. And, if my hand is up and acring to lead a turn, she can easily do that extra spin if she wants to.

[kayak]

Yikes! Had to look that one up!

Yea, chaine's are kind of a 2-step staple turn. The one difference is their description is ballet oriented. So they suggest releve', but we usually have to do it in plei' instead. Lowering instead or rising allows the lady to stay balanced doing the fast 2-step turns. Rising gives the floating look in smooth dances like waltz, but also works better at the slower dance speeds.

...I note that with your QQ QQ QQ S S
LR LR LR L R
if I do QQ S S QQ S not altering my steps
LR L R LR L
we are indeed on opposite feet.
I kinda feel like if she took an extra step to do an extra spin that wasn't led, and ended up on the wrong foot, she should fix it. And, if my hand is up and acring to lead a turn, she can easily do that extra spin if she wants to.

The trick here is if I lead QQ QQ, I myself have to step QQ QQ. I have to make sure I don't revert to QQ S or we end up with opposit feet.

There isn't enough time in a 160 bpm dance to have the lady guessing if I want her to do an extra spin. My lead should dictate that we are still turning or that we are going back to promenade/frame.

Yea, sometimes one of us makes a mistake and we end up opposit feet. It doesn't really matter which of us made the mistake. As the leader, I figure it is my job to lead us out of the mess. So by leading with my center and stepping right through her, her natural choice is to rematch my footwork. To help make it clear which foot she should step back on, I sometime dance that side forward a couple inches.

Thus, if I move towards her with my whole center, step with my left foot, and present my left shoulder forward just a little, the lady has three hints that I want her to step back with her right foot. Then, we are matched back up :)

[Steve Pastor]

Someone told me recently that I am a man of the people, and when I read, regarding the waltz, "The vigorous peasant dancer, following an instinctive knowledge of the weight of fall, untilizes his surplus energy to press all his strength into the proper beat of the measure, thus intensifying his personal enjoyment in dancing", I can relate. Quote from "The Birth of the Waltz". Nettl, Paul. in Dance Index vol 5, no. 9. 1946 New York: Dance Index-Ballet Caravan, Inc. page 211.

I'm glad you have a way of fixing this. Actually, I find that women are the most confused when I am in a "side by side", "shoulder hold", "cape", or varsouviana position. We do that a lot here in Portland, unlike in Texas, and maybe where you are. I have noticed that they straighten themselves out faster if I put them in front of me and and I'm walking right at them.
I could be more accomodating to the women who don't get it on their own, just like I could not dance in time to the music if it's too fast or too slow for them.
You know, there are lots of those guys around, and they are often looking for partners. And they dance a lot more than me some nights.
I'll tuck your method in my back pocket, but....

[kayak]

No worries, just give it a shot sometime. We dance in sweetheart and cape lots. If I match all the steps I am asking the lady to dance, we almost always end up on the right foot together.

The nice thing about dancing all the promenade side by side patterns is us guys can always apply a little "advanced men's footwork" to seamlessly fix mistakes. It doesn't matter which partner missed. Just hesitate one step and the two of us are matched back up.

[Lrn2dnc]

I want to make sure I understand where you are coming from kayak, may I ask a few questions?

What do you consider basic timing? Using numbers, as I believe you've already explained it with rhythm.

[kayak]

I want to make sure I understand where you are coming from kayak, may I ask a few questions?

What do you consider basic timing? Using numbers, as I believe you've already explained it with rhythm.

Hi Lrn2dnc, I am not quite sure I am following your questions since the basic rhythm of QQSS creates a rolling count? If we started dancing on the first beat of a measure, I would count the basic pattern as 1,2,3 5 7,8,1 3 5,6,7 1 etc. I used a space as a hold. Is that kind of what you were asking?

If I was leading the three turns example, I would both dance and lead it 1,2,3,4,5,6,7 1. A chaine' take two beats.

[Lrn2dnc]

Hi Lrn2dnc, I am not quite sure I am following your questions since the basic rhythm of QQSS creates a rolling count? If we started dancing on the first beat of a measure, I would count the basic pattern as 1,2,3 5 7,8,1 3 5,6,7 1 etc. I used a space as a hold. Is that kind of what you were asking?
No you answered exactly what I was asking. And then some :)
So that hold, is a non weight change?
To clarify those first 4 steps:
You would be stepping on the 1, stepping on the 2, stepping on the 3, holding for the count of 4, stepping on the 5, holding for the count of 6?

[kayak]

Yep exactly! The S takes two beats, but the step on to it is on the first beat and then there is the hold.

[Lrn2dnc]

Yep exactly! The S takes two beats, but the step on to it is on the first beat and then there is the hold.

So all the steps arrive at the same speed, but two of them depart later?
If I counted using Quick's for descriptive speed purposes, I could say it as Q,Q,QHold,QHold?

[kayak]

Yea, the step and hold style of slow seems to work better than trying to make it a slow step.

[Wolfgang]

Here's what I learned:
The Foxtrot (walk-walk-side-close/slow-slow-quick-quick) is the forerunner of the Two-Step.
There's two basic types of Two-Step, Progressive and 'Texas'.
Progressive is just walks ahead (quick-quick-slow-slow), Texas, being danced to (even) slower music, has a side-together pattern for the slows, making you kind of 'sway'.

Now, how exactly this translates will depend greatly on the type of environment the OP is referring to.
If you're talking about what I call the 'real world' - like a night club or other 'uncontrolled' environment, all bets are off and how well the lady/follow does will depend a great deal on how 'determined' (ahem...) your lead is.

[Steve Pastor]

Hi, Wolfgang.
Here's some stuff I found in various books...

As with other country/western dances, there are different versions of two step. Even the same dance may go by different names depending on the area of the U.S., and even in the particular dance hall. There may be no one "correct" way to do a particular dance.
The Official Guide to Country Dance Steps. by Tony Leisner. 1980. Quality Books, Inc. page 64. ISBN 0-89009-331-8

The Texas Two Step includes three steps: a quick step, a quick step, and then a slow step.
Dance Across Texas By Betty Casey 1985 University of Texas Press page 111. ISBN:029271551X

The lead steps forward on his left foot, lifting his right heel for the first step, which is the first quick step. Although three steps are taken the dancer only progresses two steps.
Dance Across Texas By Betty Casey 1985 University of Texas Press pages 16, 67 ISBN:029271551X

Many sites, however, define the dance as having four steps, quick quick slow, slow.[http://www.janbrett.com/piggybacks/step.htm]

Then of course there are the triple twos.

The two-step is a step found in many folk dances (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folk_dance), and in various other dances. It seems to take its name from the 19th century dance related to the Polka (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polka).
A two-step consists of two steps in approximately the same direction onto the same foot, separated by a closing step with the other foot.
No source

So, from foxtrot or not? I'm thinking no one knows for sure.

[kayak]

Hi Wolfgang,
I actually have never watched anyone that closes on the slows. I do see the older closing quicks style from time to time. Still, most have converted to the forward walks.

As Lrn2dnc helped emphasis recently, the big challenge is making the slow slow obvious by dancing it as a quick hold quick hold. Foxtrot has an interesting difference in that the quicks also have rise that distinguish those steps from the slows.

[dragon3085]

You all my find this article interesting if you have not already read it. The link I am posting starts on page 5 because that is where most of the meat of this thread is disussed but the whole article makes for interesting reading on texas dance history.

http://www.ssqq.com/stories/westernswing5.htm

Enjoy,
Patrick

[JingleBoots]

Hi G&B. I am beginning to think that the actual "two step" is taught in various steps; depending on the part of the country you live in. My two step is and always will be the Quick-Quick, Slow..Slow method. But the only thing is that the first two steps are actually "walking" and the last are more of a longer, sliding step. Last week I attended a dance where one man was absolutely "gliding" across the floor; using the (triple) step....his head stayed at the same level ALL NIGHT. He was a good, strong lead and the both of them were sensational to watch. The triple is my favorite dance and my dance partner moved away. We have NO Country Western clubs here to dance, so I just thought I'd join this forum to possibly meet new dancers and see if anyone is from my home area....West Monroe, LA. Dancing is a passion of mine, and I love CW dancing the best...but next is the East Coast Swing. I hope to learn a lot from just reading these forums, and so far I have. Happy Dancing ! Jingleboots

[Steve Pastor]

It sort of drove me crazy to read and hear all of the conflicting stuff about "Two Step", so I looked at a bunch of books, etc, and this is what I found - in part.

As with other country/western dances, there are different versions of two step. Even the same dance may go by different names depending on the area of the U.S., and even in the particular dance hall. There may be no one "correct" way to do a particular dance.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Country-western_two-step#cite_note-0)
The Two Step can be danced over a fairly wide range of tempos, such as 130 bpm to over 200 bpm. Accomplished dancers can dance to tempos above 185 bpm.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Country-western_two-step#cite_note-1)
The United Country Western Dance Counsel (UCWDC) rules list the Two-step at 182-198 BPM for competition music, while the Country Western Dance International (CWDI) rules lists the Two-step at 160-192 BPM for competition music.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Country-western_two-step#cite_note-2)
The Texas Two Step includes three steps: a quick step, a quick step, and then a slow step.[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Country-western_two-step#cite_note-3) The lead steps forward on his left foot, lifting his right heel for the first step, which is the first quick step. It can be danced to music with either a 2/4 or 4/4 time signature. The best effect is created when dancers achieve a smooth gliding motion in time to the music.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Country-western_two-step#cite_note-4) Although three steps are taken the dancer only progresses two steps.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Country-western_two-step#cite_note-5)
Many sites, however, define the dance as having four steps, quick quick slow, slow.[3] (http://www.janbrett.com/piggybacks/step.htm) And the pattern of the steps are often referred to as "Step-together, walk, walk."
Another "two step" done almost exclusively in Arizona is also known as Rhythm Two-step, and is almost stationary. The rhythm is Step forward, Touch, Step backward, Touch, Walk Walk. Its music is in tempo between Triple Two-step and Texas Two-step.[4] (http://www.eijkhout.net/rad/dance_specific/twostep.html)

Double two-step is also referred to as "shuffle". Fort Worth shuffle has the same pattern as double two-step, except that the first triple-step begins with the right foot.[5] (http://www.eijkhout.net/rad/dance_specific/countrywestern5.html)

A form of Two Step unrelated to the current Two Step created a radical change in dance style at the end of the nineteenth century. It was often performed to the American music of John Philip Sousa's "The Washington Post" march.[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Country-western_two-step#cite_note-10) [12 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Country-western_two-step#cite_note-11)


(If you know where this came from, take a look at the history page.)

[kayak]

Hi JingleBoots,

Glad you can join us. I am not in the California area, but always have fun dancing. I guess my view from traveling around is the technique is pretty standardized right now. Just like with other dances, times change and 2-step has changed as well. So I can kind of pick out the time frame dancers first learned by their basic technique.

[Ron AKA]

Kayak put me onto this old thread, and it is an interesting read as we are currently taking two step lessons. I suspect the OP is right and the two step has been hijacked some where along the way. Our instructor claims to teach the "new way", but he also claims to have been teaching it for 30 years. So when the hijack occurred is debatable.

His new way is a Q, Q, S, S, with all passing steps. More accurately in music beats a 1, 2, 3, 5 count. His reasoning is that the two quicks are better suited to the first two beats in a bar. But obviously you need 6 beats to complete the basic, and you are starting the second basic in the middle of the next bar, so... I challenged him on it, and he says it works out when you consider a complete verse of music. I guess he is correct if verses work out to have total beats divisible by both 4 and 6. 24, 36, 48 total beats would work. I don't know enough about country music to say that is the case. On passing the feet, he recommends 12" steps on the quicks and 24" on the slows.

On the passing steps, he says a two step should have smooth steps with no bouncing or dipping, and using closing steps makes the dance jerky. He teaches a standard ballroom hold rather than an over the shoulder hold, saying it gives the leader more control.

In short he calls the old way the Uncle Jed style (Jed Clampett??). I suspect the Jed style is still being taught in some areas. I did find one video on You Tube that showed a Slow, Slow, Quick, Close basic step, but he was using the ballroom hold, so not a pure Uncle Jed. Google the following if you want to see it.

You Tube Country/Western 2-Step Dance Lesson Mans Basic Steps

In a related video with the same instructor there is a video on dance position showing the ballroom hold. He also advocates the slightly offset position rather than toe to toe. Again offset is considered "Uncle Jed" by our instructor, and he calls it a doggy walk. On this one I have to agree with Uncle Jed. Offset lets you dance closer together, which makes the turns easier, and also the leader can see over the shoulder and avoid collisions. While I end up in the penalty box if I offset during lessons, I think I will switch to it after the lessons are over. It makes more sense to me.

In total I make that about 3 marks for the new way to 1 for Uncle Jed.

[Steve Pastor]

If you are interested, start listening to the percussion in CW songs.
Here's a brand new song that I think would be good to two step to.
http://www.cmt.com/videos/justin-moore/700160/bait-a-hook.jhtml

Mostly the drummer is playing a simple 1 2, but I hear an emphasis on every other beat.
one TWO one TWO

It would be really easy to dance
quickquickSLOW quickquickSLOW.

Sure, you could do quickquick Slow Slow, but I think quickquick SLOW fits the music more closely.

You'll often hear a night club two step type rhythm in some songs.
Hey, everyone learns qq s s now a days. Why mess with it?

If some gal answered my "red neck hold" with her thumb through my belt loop, I'd think, Cool !
When you've been doing this as long as I have, and, and are a bit of a non conformist, you look for ways to entertain yourself, or you look for other things to do.

Yeah, 30 years would be early 80s, just about the time the people who learned after "Urban Cowboy" from teachers who just learned "country western" began to outnumber the kickers out there.


PS I like the song and the video. Seems like lots of the newer country stuff has more of a hip hop attitude than a country attitude, unlike this one.

[kayak]

Most CW is 32 beat phrasing. I would just suggest that actually taking a 24 inch step is pretty big if you start thinking in about dancing to 160+ bpm music.

You might check with lrn2dnc and ican2step for questions about 2-step.

[rbazsz]

Another "two step" done almost exclusively in Arizona is also known as Rhythm Two-step, and is almost stationary. The rhythm is Step forward, Touch, Step backward, Touch, Walk Walk. Its music is in tempo between Triple Two-step and Texas Two-step.[4] (http://www.eijkhout.net/rad/dance_specific/twostep.html)


This is not correct. In Arizona we do what we call "Arizona 2-step". It can be progressive or stationary. It's a six count dance. The footwork is Step Forward, Step Forward click the feet, Step Backward, click the feet. By making the backward step smaller than the two steps forward the dance becomes progressive.

The step can also go sideways instead of forward.

A lot of the arm moves are borrowed from Texas 2-step. In Arizona most people call T2S "Progressive 2-Step". I have yet to find a solid reason why it's called that but the most plausible reason is that Arizona dancers prefer to differentiate themselves from anything from Texas.

Go to this youtube for an excellent tutorial on the basic footwork for AZ 2-step. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2T8YIqrmh_I)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2T8YIqrmh_I

[Ron AKA]

Most CW is 32 beat phrasing. I would just suggest that actually taking a 24 inch step is pretty big if you start thinking in about dancing to 160+ bpm music.

You might check with lrn2dnc and ican2step for questions about 2-step.

At 32 beats to a phrase then only the odd numbered phrases would start with the quick quick. Seems to me that being in sync with the music is not a valid reason for starting with quicks or slows. It ends up being 6 of one and half a dozen of the other.

I think our instructor is a bit distance challenged, but to be fair I think the distances were just to get us started at 130 beats or so. I think a common beginning mistake especially for the follower is to take steps that are too short. He does advocate taking shorter steps for the leader to give room for turns, and both for faster music.

Do you have links for lrn2dnc and ican2step? I didn't come up with much using Google.

[kayak]

Those two are Dance Forum members that are accomplished at 2-step.

I wouldn't stress over starting with slows or quicks. I would do as your instructor teaches or as your local community dances. As with many dances, the six count is just the basic. Before long you get to mix in 8, 10 or more count patterns.

The same goes with Steve's cowboy hold. He learned that style and it works for him. It might have been popular way back. However, you might as well learn how it is being danced now. We just watched "Pure Country" and a majority of the dance fillers in the movie are already using the ballroom hold with only a couple cowboy holds all the way back in 1992. Yea, everything will probably change again in years to come. Then, we get the choice of continuing with how we first learned or modernizing.

[Zhena]

Go to this youtube for an excellent tutorial on the basic footwork for AZ 2-step. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2T8YIqrmh_I)


A Hungarian dancer would summarize the basic foot pattern as "one double csardas left, one single csardas right".

I wonder if there's any connection?



In Hungarian dance, the step is done two ways: with both partners moving the same direction (i.e., the woman starts with her right foot) or moving around a common center (i.e., the woman also starts with her left foot).

[Steve Pastor]

From a 2007 post

The fourth style is not progressive and is probably a 2-Step in name only, it is called Arizona 2-step. Its foot work is Q-Q-S-tap-S-tap, the result is you follow every beat of the music.

The video has 1 2 3 touch 5 touch.

rb sez
Step Forward, Step Forward click the feet, Step Backward, click the feet.

referenced material is
Step forward, Touch, Step backward, Touch, Walk Walk.
which equals
Walk Walk. Step forward, Touch, Step backward, Touch
which equals 1 2 3 touch, 5 touch

Looks to me like all of these are prety much the same.

Doing all steps and touchs as "quicks" or "slows" makes would take 6 "counts", usually 1/4 notes.

[dragon3085]

Just 2 quick notes on what I have observed here in Texas.

1. The so called "cowboy" hold tends to be used by folks who seem to be self-taught. Also I see it more when the when the man is taller than the follower. I call a red-neck hold. Also probably 90 percent of the dancers you meet socially at a country club, will pick up starting on the quick quick, vs many of the girls are unprepared to start on a slow unless they have had some ballroom training.

2. Regarding the offset partner positioning vs, being directly in front of your partner, for me this comes down to practicality. The offset partner position makes more sense because you can actually see around your partner to where you are going. I am of average height or just below , and most girls are about my height or only slightly shorter, if they stand in front of me directly I cannot see down line of dance. Now if you your head taller then you follower this is probably not a problem for you, but that offset positioning also has other advantages.



Those two are Dance Forum members that are accomplished at 2-step.

I wouldn't stress over starting with slows or quicks. I would do as your instructor teaches or as your local community dances. As with many dances, the six count is just the basic. Before long you get to mix in 8, 10 or more count patterns.

The same goes with Steve's cowboy hold. He learned that style and it works for him. It might have been popular way back. However, you might as well learn how it is being danced now. We just watched "Pure Country" and a majority of the dance fillers in the movie are already using the ballroom hold with only a couple cowboy holds all the way back in 1992. Yea, everything will probably change again in years to come. Then, we get the choice of continuing with how we first learned or modernizing.

[chuck4788]

In reading a lot of post on this forum I often think that we are describing the same thing in many different ways.

I'm relatively new to CW dancing having started in the mid nineties, about the time UCWDC began strongly influencing the dance. I learned QQSS (1-2-3-5 count), ballroom frame, passing feet, etc. Just recently UCWDC changed Triple 2S from shuffle triples to passing triples, all to smooth out the dance and I suspect to make it smoother like P2S.

I learned in the PNW but here in Phoenix AZ AZ 2S is alive and well, but so is P2S with many UCWDC World Champions providing instructions. Intermediate P2S also has various rythym patterns such as QQSQQS or QQQQQQ for multiple spins.

AZ 2S is nice on a small crowded dance floor to slow music but IMO it doesn't have the energy level of P2S at 160-200bpm.