An ingenue and an impasse: Tales of non-mentoring.

[PasoDancer]

Three months ago, J's coworker W asked him if we could donate our time and intelligence to her daughter's senior project. The project mandated that the student find something they've "always wanted to do", document it, and at the end of an alotted (allotted?) period of time, present a demonstration of it.

She chose ballroom dancing, and she chose us to mentor her.

For four months, then, we've heard nothing of it. I've asked him "So, has Fluffy said anything to you about doing this thing? Does she realize that you can't learn a routine in two hours, regardless of the camera tricks and outright lies Ballroom Bootcamp and DWTS bamboozle the ignorant with?"

Nothing. So, two nights ago, he gets this email. "Hi, Thanks for doing this for me. So can I get together with you guys tonight or tomorrow after eight? These days here and this date here isn't any good, but at the end of this week, my teacher wants two project hours completed. Yours truly, Fluffy."

The girl's pretty, tall, athletic, and makes good grades. But how do you tell someone that this won't really cut it? We have no idea what the expectations or goals of this whole thing is. I'm assuming she wants to learn the basic footwork and technique of a ballroom, latin, or social dance, document and report her trials, successes, and errors with writing and photography, and at the end, present a short dance to music, using J or a partner of her choice (who we'd have to train too), and a cute costume.

What worries me is that she's using our names on this project which really needs more preparation. "Oh, I'm going to learn from so and so"... What, then, will happen when she DOESN'T learn from us, and people think "Wow, they sure didn't get much across to her?" instead of "Geez, she didn't put much effort into this or take this very seriously, did she?" I don't want to look like a joke, I don't want to turn a dancer out that looks like a joke. "I'm thuper therial, Manbearpig is real!!" you know? We aren't pros- we're newbs, but we don't want to LOOK like dog-and-pony-show morons.

In four months, she COULD have actually learned some basics, gotten around to playing around with music, danced socially, and maybe even found a partner. She could have had a head-start.

So, I took her email address, and this is what I wrote to her, and I'm editing out some info I just don't want on the net that badly. Also, I would like to add that the syntax, grammar, spelling, and other aspects of the language in the letter are not concurrent with my normal speaking manner. I felt the need to soften or simplify it somewhat to connect with the person on the other end, without "endumbening" it:

Hi, there:

I'm C, J's partner, and we've been discussing what to do for your mentoring project to make it benefit you the best and make it easiest to learn and do well. There are pros and cons to finding and bringing a partner, as well as going "pro am" in a manner of speaking, and using J as a partner. If you bring a partner, you both get to learn a fun (and addictive) hobby, and might use it elsewhere. The con would be that someone with prior experience can lead you through things in case you forget something. Another would be most guys have hangups about ballroom dancing and wouldn't put as much into it maybe.

The pro to having someone kind of in the know already would be as mentioned, they can help you through stuff, they're there as needed and you don't have to put up with 'em any more than you want to, and stuff like that. The con is that when you want to go out dancing and you don't have a dance partner already, you'll have to hunt one down! For this project though, I'd recommend just having J. It'll keep it simple, and later on, we can worry about snagging a handsome man, binding and gagging him, abducting him, and forcing him to tango.

Did you have in mind what type of dance you would like to do? So far, we've had pretty good success with waltz and foxtrot, and we've been doing ok in cha-cha as well. Modern, non-cheesy music is usually pretty readily available for these dances too, so you won't be embarassed to death with some old stuff.

I gotta say, it's best to start this as soon as possible, because dancing isn't something that can just be picked up in a couple of hours (well, there are exceptions to every rule- but we sure aren't! Lol). He said you were in color guard I think, so that gives you a foot in the door as far as physical strength and endurance- that's an advantage we didn't have when we started, so the cha-cha wore us completely out. We first hated it, now we love it. The cha-cha is a fun kind of flirty dance where you can ham it up with some catchy moves, cute clothes, and fun music, whereas the waltz, foxtrot, tango, etc. are more serious dances.

In the first couple of hours though, I'm pretty sure we could get "the basic", an underarm turn, and maybe two other moves in, something for you to work on wherever, and I'd really really like for you to come see a dance sometime- they're fun to watch OR participate in, and besides that, I need to work on getting J un-shy, maybe you can help, Lol.

For working on all of this, ideally I'd suggest "ballroom shoes" (available at exoticsalsashoes.com , appledanceshoes.com , and of course the fine folks of e-bay) with at least a two-inch heel, NOT higher than two and a half though, because yes, you can totally bust your butt on those things, trust me I know! The reason I suggest ballroom-specific shoes though is because they have a SUEDE sole- it's soft, lightweight, flexible, and moves across the floor JUST right in a way that rubber or plain leather can't. Failing that, I'd suggest those capezio "ballet flats" you can get at some Wal-Marts, but most ballet studios have- little pink or black things, kind of fugly, but really comfortable.

To wear, just wear something "athletic"- I'd suggest capri-length or regular-length pants and a T-shirt that breathes. Adidas makes really neat Capris that are kind of waffley but not fugly. Hair goes up in a ponytail, unless it's long- then put something heavy in the end so that when you spin, you can knock someone's head off *snicker*.

Sorry to kind of take up the reins and drop a whole novel on you, but J's too quiet and shy, and I'm scared he won't fill you in on all the important stuff- the whole "he's a guy" kind of thing.

My cell is xxxxxxxxx, and any time after he gets off work, we're either at our studio or F's, so just give a call sometime and we can hook up and get to work. I have to say I'm curious to see how this all comes out- it'll be so much fun to try our hand at playing teacher, and we want to make an easy-to-remember, fun, and all-around "good" routine for you to impress your teachers with!

If you can make it tomorrow (Tuesday) at 8:00 to F's, that would be really cool. It's a nice floor, not a lot of people there, and the people who *are* usually there are so old they won't remember whether or not you goof up- that's why we like it. Otherwise, we can go to our studio and go upstairs to the other practice room. Give J a call or me a call, whichever, and let us know what's up, though, so we can get started. I hope you get hooked on ballroom too! We love it, and have never had so much fun in our lives.

Hope to get in touch with you soon, I'm probably forgetting stuff that J will say "dummy, why didn't you tell her that?" about later, but oh, well! Lol
CH

Does this sound friendly and encouraging without being picky and insistent? Our area is rife with these "Don't yew holler at me!" rednecks who take anything from "Excuse me," when passing in a cramped aisle to "Your tag's sticking out" as "hollering at" someone. Any sort of advice, question, or something of this nature can be taken as insulting. Ugh, hillbillies. No, I'm not accusing this girl of being one, but I just know the demographic, and am taking precautionary measures.

Ideas? I guess this will be my "chronicles of" thread if this project ever indeed *does* come to fruition. I wish the girl luck- I think it's so neat that someone like her wants to do ballroom, and I'm trying not to serious it up too much and scare her off, but I'm also trying to gently tell her that "hey- you don't need to screw around on this if it's a grade and you can't just BS this stuff".

Help?

UPDATE: Holy cats! I just re-read the thing- she wants two hours done by TOMORROW!!!

Hey J!
I'm just giving you an update on the senior project thing. I have two
mentor hours due Wednesday, September 20. I know this is kind of short
notice, but I could do that today, or Monday after 6:30, or Tuesday
after 8. If not, I'm sure I could work something out with my teacher.
Also, I was wondering if i needed to find a partner to dance with or
not. Thank you again and I'll see you soon.
XZ

[fascination]

well, paso ...now that we know the real truth from cornutt and from the tone of this letter...okay nevermind...

anyhow, it sounds reasonable to me, but if she chooses to be unreasonable and annoyed I reckon she can find a different project to slap together at the last moment...as for how it will reflect on you folks, I rather doubt that it will...look, some of the most excellent teachers have dreadful students...good luck...sounds fine to me

[PasoDancer]

It's so easy to be shot down when you're "up", is all. Like last night's practice. That was a graze, not a dead hit- Wednesday, no telling....

I hope this works out. It sounds like fun. We get to play dress-up as "teachers", LOL.

[fascination]

yep, amazing what we let devastate us...BTDT...wear the shirt often

[cornutt]

So I was a high school student once. I remember starting a paper at about 11:00 PM the night before it was due. However, in those cases, I was the only one who suffered; I wasn't dragging someone else into my self-imposed nightmare.

So give her her two hours if it fits into your schedule. If she shows up when she's supposed to, fine. If she doesn't, it's not your problem. You made a more than reasonable offer. If she fails, well, it's a lesson that she needed to learn the hard way, because she obviously wasn't going to learn it any other way. I wouldn't worry about what kind of rep you get out of it. If the teacher has any experience at all, he/she will know what the score is. Your email to her was fine; I didn't see anything wrong with it.

Assuming she does show up, I suggest keeping things simple at this late date. First of all, teach her some Latin dance, not standard/smooth. The Latin is likely to be viewed as cooler by the kids. Plus, I don't know where the demonstration is going to take place, but if it's in the classroom, there likely won't be enough room to do standard. I suggest rumba -- the basic is easy to learn, and you can show her a few things like crossovers and cross-body leads that even beginning follows can usually follow easily. Keep it simple, so you can spend time talking about frame, posture, and movement.

And work with her about her costuming for the demonstration. I think it's important to put across the idea to the other students that being dressed for the occasion is important to dancing, and baggy jeans and an oversized T-shirt (or Daisy Duke shorts and a tube top with bra straps exposed) isn't how you do it. And, since I know how a lot of high-school girls are these days, you want to make sure she is covered appropriately for a classroom.

[Chris Stratton]

I think the moral of the story is that if you care about something, beware of those who will trivialize it. She's treating it like a simple subject - because she doesn't know that it's as complicated - she wouldn't do that with something like learning to play the piano, because she has more of an idea about what that would involve.

As for what you can do now... teach her a little east coast swing... it's simple, it's small, it's not too hard to make it look interesting, and moderate silliness is no crime. Salsa might be another choice, but I'd suggest avoiding it specifically because of the chance of dancing in front of classmates who might already have some ideas about what that is supposed to be.

[tanya_the_dancer]

Well, I had shown 20 5th graders how to do chacha basic, cross-over and underarm turn in 45 minutes (and will be doing it again probably if/when the PE teacher at my son's school asks me). Some of them actually got something by the end of the lesson. So I figure one high-schooler should be able to get that much in a couple of hours.

[PasoDancer]

I'm in over my head. I'm going to see if she wants to learn huntseat equitation instead.

[Twilight_Elena]

First of all. Congrats about getting asked to help. I know it must feel very nice. :D
Secondly. It's quite obvious this girl thinks she can learn how to chacha like Karina in a few hours. Many people, like Chris said, think balroom dancing is a piece of cake. Try to teach her the basics, and if she seems dissapointed, annoyed or otherwise in a mood of "WHY am I not like Karina? It's YOUR fault!" then explain to her that you were totally available for 4 months and she didn't take advantage of that. Explain to her that getting to where YOU are takes years in itself, let alone learning how to do really cool things. If she starts her redneck routine... well. Then it's not your fault. It's not like you'd get a referral or any fame from a high schooler's project anyway.

T_E

[tangotime]

As most teachers of any yrs standing, they will have been approached in similar fashion on numerous occasions . 2 part answer-- 1--Ask her if she thinks , with one weeks piano lessons, could she play at carnegie hall ? -- 2-- I think by going ahead and attempting the project, you are setting a precedent . I am so tired of people who think they can walk into any dance institution and demand excellence for themselves in 5 minutes .Sometimes, a reality check is necessary- It may teach her that not all things in life come by clicking your fingers !!---- p.s. you should not have any guilt about refusal .

[Twilight_Elena]

@tangotime: :applause:
Another thing, Paso. Your e-mail sounds like so much fun! It's very good writing, very vibrant and overall delightful to read. :D If I were in this girl's shoes, I'd be killing to get some practice time with you peeps.

T_E

[Chris Stratton]

As most teachers of any yrs standing, they will have been approached in similar fashion on numerous occasions . 2 part answer-- 1--Ask her if she thinks , with one weeks piano lessons, could she play at carnegie hall ? -- 2-- I think by going ahead and attempting the project, you are setting a precedent . I am so tired of people who think they can walk into any dance institution and demand excellence for themselves in 5 minutes .Sometimes, a reality check is necessary- It may teach her that not all things in life come by clicking your fingers !!---- p.s. you should not have any guilt about refusal .

Well, there is the whole wedding couple business... a performance, on three hours of training ;-)

[fascination]

but hey, in that case it is adequate for their purposes...and they may be back later

[Peaches]

OK. I understand people's frustration with the "You can dance championship in 5 easy lessons" mentality, but come on here. That's not what this girl is looking for--we're talking more along the line of a wedding couple.

Sure, she should have gotten on it months ago. And I've got clean laundry sitting in baskets that's been there for 3 weeks now, while we've been dumping dirty laundry on the floor--everywhere. Some of us are procrastinators, or, as I prefer to think of it, very highly motivated by deadlines.

This is different b/c she's involving other people and inconveniencing them. But this time around, we're talking about 2 hours here--not a lifetime of commitment. I'd say, Paso, if you and J can meet with her for 2 hours, then do it. At that point, talk to her about what SHE wants/needs to accomplish (you might have to help revise her expectations--not downward, necessarily--but towards reality), and tell her that you really need at least a week's notice. Or try to set up regular meeting times.

I'm not advocating for lack of responsibility. But not all of us were responsible about time management at the age of--what?--16? 18? Some of us still aren't. And, for some of us, procrastination and doing things last-minute (have you ever skipped class to finish writing a paper for said class that was due at the end of the class-time? I have--many, many, multiple times.) is just how we operate. Of course, when there are others involved it adds another dimension, but still...

[skwiggy]

Some of us are procrastinators, or, as I prefer to think of it, very highly motivated by deadlines.


Brilliant. :)

[caityrosey]

I remember doing a few clueless things like this when I was her age...I very shame-facedly remember a liturgical dance number I planned to do for Christmas Eve...but had totally neglected to find a singer, just a pianist. At the last minute I found a choir member willing to help out.

Like many of you have been saying, she's a kid and doesn't really understand what this project really entails...and is used to pulling off projects at the last minute.

[Peaches]

Brilliant. :)

I can't take credit for it. I can't remember where I first ran across it, but it's not a Peaches Original.

[Chris Stratton]

This is different b/c she's involving other people and inconveniencing them. But this time around, we're talking about 2 hours here--not a lifetime of commitment. I'd say, Paso, if you and J can meet with her for 2 hours, then do it. At that point, talk to her about what SHE wants/needs to accomplish (you might have to help revise her expectations--not downward, necessarily--but towards reality)

If it were a simple assignment that would make sense - though it's drastically undervaluing ballroom. but that wasn't the assignment:

The project mandated that the student find something they've "always wanted to do", document it, and at the end of an alotted (allotted?) period of time, present a demonstration of it.

That is not a two hour project.

[Peaches]

I remember doing a few clueless things like this when I was her age...I very shame-facedly remember a liturgical dance number I planned to do for Christmas Eve...but had totally neglected to find a singer, just a pianist. At the last minute I found a choir member willing to help out.

Like many of you have been saying, she's a kid and doesn't really understand what this project really entails...and is used to pulling off projects at the last minute.

OTOH, maybe she DOES really understand what the project entails--and we, as more serious dancers/people who dance, are making mountains of molehills. I know I had plenty of projects that could very easily be fudged with a few hours of actual work and some cleverness. Or, maybe it's just nowhere as involved as it's been made to sound. This is the daughter of one of J's co-workers, yeah? Parents, IME, can often blow things out of proportion when it comes to school crap.

[skwiggy]

This situation vaguely reminds me of one that I'm in right now. Slight hijack warning...

A very good friend of my boyfriend's and his fiance asked me to teach them how to dance for their first song as a wedding gift. I don't really have the time or interest, frankly, and would rather go and buy something off of their registry. But to be nice, I said OK. They asked almost a year ago, and I kind of figured they would just forget about it. A lot of people ask me to teach them, and then never mention it again.

Well, turns out, many months after I reluctantly agreed, she told my sister that this was the gift I was giving them for the wedding. So I figure, it's my fault, I agreed, so I'll make good on it.

Needless to say, scheduling a free evening is VERY tough for me. And I know they have no concept that they need more than an hour or two to prepare. So I warned them a couple of months ago that they had better get started or they would run out of time. I had to call them to schedule, and they excitedly picked a day.

Well, the first time I had to cancel because I was very sick, so that's just bad circumstance.

But last night, aaaaaaaah! I rearranged my schedule to make sure I had time to teach them. They asked if we could all 4 go out to dinner beforehand, so I agreed.

I called her 2 hours before I was supposed to teach them and left a message. I received a message back saying that they weren't sure if they were up to it, and they would call me in a little while. Running out of time for dinner, my boyfriend and I went out to dinner without them. Then the guy calls my boyfriends saying his fiance told him to call about "dinner or something". We told them we were already at dinner, because they waited so long that there wasn't time to all go out together. My boyfriend said that he was supposed to call about dancing, not about dinner, so the guy says that he has to check with fiance and call us back.

About 2 hours later, an hour+ after I was scheduled to go over there and teach them, the guy calls my boyfriend to see if he wants to come over and "hang out".

I was FURIOUS. It's just so disrespectful of me and my time. I don't even want to give them the dance lessons, but I feel obligated. I don't want to start a fight, because this guy and my boyfriend are good friends. But they're quickly running out of time. The wedding is November 5th. They haven't had a single lesson. They haven't picked a song, although I have insisted that they need to. I'm concerned that if we schedule again, the will just blow me off again because they're not "up for it that night".

How can I approach them and let them know that my time is valuable, that I'm just as happy (or happier) to buy them a traditional gift if the they don't want this one, but if they do want it, we need to start immediately and they can't cancel at the last minute!

[Peaches]

If it were a simple assignment that would make sense - though it's drastically undervaluing ballroom. but that wasn't the assignment:



That is not a two hour project.

Of course it's not 2 hours--read the original post. This is an interim deadline, by which time she has to have demonstrated 2 hours of time.

Mayhaps, as a serious competitor, others are overvaluing ballroom. I know, I know, it's practically sacrilege to say that thing on this forum, and I fully expect to be verbally stoned for that comment. But not everyone takes it so seriously. There's a whole worlds of people who are happy with a few basics and underarm turns, and for the project--which we don't know much about--that may be fine.

[Peaches]

Ooooh, Skwiggy, that would tick me off beyond belief. I don't have any answers for you, but you've got my sympathy and vicarious ticked-off-edness.

[Chris Stratton]

How can I approach them and let them know that my time is valuable, that I'm just as happy (or happier) to buy them a traditional gift if the they don't want this one, but if they do want it, we need to start immediately and they can't cancel at the last minute!

I'm of the opion that for many people there is a minimum price they have to pay before they will take something seriously - doesn't matter the quality of free help, if it's free it's not woth much.

Were it not so pricey, I'd suggest making your wedding gift a typical 3 hour block of lessons at a studio - not because it would be better training, but because they might actually show up and get the job done - and more importantly you wouldn't have to worry about how. But then again, I see a lot of teachers sitting around waiting for their wedding couples to show up... and if it's your money not theirs, they still might not.

[skwiggy]

It's a great suggestion, if it weren't so pricey. Thanks. :-/

[tanya_the_dancer]

Of course it's not 2 hours--read the original post. This is an interim deadline, by which time she has to have demonstrated 2 hours of time.

Mayhaps, as a serious competitor, others are overvaluing ballroom. I know, I know, it's practically sacrilege to say that thing on this forum, and I fully expect to be verbally stoned for that comment. But not everyone takes it so seriously. There's a whole worlds of people who are happy with a few basics and underarm turns, and for the project--which we don't know much about--that may be fine.

You know, I think I agree with you. I think what sometimes happens is that when we, as adults, are asked to help out with a school project, we sometimes take it as seriously as we would a project assigned to us at work, or a project we took upon ourselves voluntarily (i.e. in our collective case, when we became passionate about ballroom dancing). And the person we are supposed to be helping does not take this project as seriously as we do - he or she just wants to turn it in, get a reasonable grade and move on to the next thing, and this really can tick the helper off - when you care more about the project than the person you're supposed to be helping.

[cornutt]

skwiggy: I hear you, but give it one more try before you throw in the towel. Look at it this way: A lot of stuff that wedding couples get on their registry goes straight into the attic, never to be seen again until several years later when they hold their first yard sale. :rolleyes: You have an opportunity to give them a gift that is very personal and that they will always remember.

Having said that: There needs to be a way to impress on them that by agreeing to teach them, you are cutting into your own practice time. A suggestion: Try the dinner thing again, but have them meet you at the studio first on one of your practice nights. Let them watch you practice for a while, so they can see how serious it is and how hard you have to work at it. (I've seen you practice, and I know how hard you work at it!) Then go out to dinner, and then do their session. During dinner, I'm sure they will be thinking about what they just saw. It might make them have more of an appreciation for the effort that goes into it. And maybe it will intimidate them just a bit, which wouldn't be a bad thing at this point.

[skwiggy]

Another great suggestion, thanks cornutt! Now if only there were enough hours in the day to practice, go out to dinner, and teach them all in one evening. :( Sometimes I barely squeeze in dinner on a practice night...

[Peaches]

Sick (slick) leave? Couldn't your back problems flare up or something?

[skwiggy]

Ah yes, sick leave from work. Something I would have LOVED to have taken last week when I was actually sick. But I'm under the gun with about 6 proposals right now. End of the government fiscal year and all. Ah, the life of a government contractor. I have the leave coming to me, plus tons of comp time for all the evenings and weekends I've been working lately, but won't have time to take it until probably mid October at best. This is another reason why time is at a premium for me. I'm working much longer hours than usual.

I know, I know, that makes one wonder how I have time to post on DF. Let's just chalk it up to multitasking...

[skwiggy]

By the way, I hate being one of those people who asks for help and then meets all attempts to help with a "yes, but...". I'm actually considering Chris' idea of buying them lessons as a combined engagement/wedding gift from both me and my boyfriend. It's a pricey gift, but will save a huge headache. I'm going to discuss it with my boyfriend tonight...

If that doesn't work, then maybe I just need to have a conversation with them that impresses upon them the things that cornutt was suggesting that I demonstrate with visual aids. I just have to work on my diplomacy...

I think this does all add up to the same problem encountered by the OP. Non-dancers have no clue what is involved in learning to dance even something simple for a one time event. And in general, a lot of people have no consideration for the value of someone's time, which should be even more highly valued when one is giving a gift or doing a favor. People just take advantage, and may not even know they're doing it. So the problem is, how do you convey all of this to them while remaining diplomatic at the same time?

And the same problem exists in that they told everyone I was teaching them for their wedding. So just the the OP, my name is on this. If they look like cr**, the finger gets pointed at me.

[Ithink]

I'm not sure what is meant by a "block of lessons". I would buy them group lessons for wedding couples at your local studio. Clearly they're not interested in privates because then they'd actually take you up on your generosity and show up at a scheduled time. You are doing *them* a favor not vice versa. What they need is flexibility and with group lessons they have that. Group lessons are also not as pricey as privates and while the instruction at the particular session I am thinking about (at CCB) is not that great, it better to send them there than you having to deal with this crap...

[cornutt]

By the way, I hate being one of those people who asks for help and then meets all attempts to help with a "yes, but...". I'm actually considering Chris' idea of buying them lessons as a combined engagement/wedding gift from both me and my boyfriend. It's a pricey gift, but will save a huge headache. I'm going to discuss it with my boyfriend tonight...


Can you find a studio in the area that offers a "wedding couple special"? Our studio does that; it's like two hours of basic instruction and a couple of beginner groups. For the price, you don't get the most experienced instructors, but for a wedding dance they aren't going to be doing much other than basics anyway.


And the same problem exists in that they told everyone I was teaching them for their wedding. So just the the OP, my name is on this. If they look like cr**, the finger gets pointed at me.

I wouldn't worry about that. At a wedding reception, the last thing on anybody's mind is critiquing the newlyweds' dancing; everyone is just happy that they dance at all. (Of course, this may depend on what time the bar opens... ;) If you want to see some crappy dancing, hang around until about 10:00 PM... :D )

[skwiggy]

My boyfriend is encouraging me to give them one last try to schedule before bailing. I will try to do so with a firm indication that if they want to do this, they need to schedule and stick with it. So I'll give them one last chance, but with the "out" that if they're too busy planning their wedding, I totally understand and we can just forget it and I'll get them a traditional gift.

Diplomacy sux.

At the last 2 weddings I went to where I taught the bride and groom as a favor (my sis and some good friends), everyone turned to me during the dance, and after the dance, and asked if I taught them, and commented on how great they looked. So they were paying attention, and everyone did want to know if I was responsible. ;)

If they do end up looking like cr** and my name is on it, maybe I'll just hit the bar myself and then I won't care how cr***y they look. :)

[Ithink]

First of all, noone at that wedding is going to know that they're looking like cr*p. If they do anything resembling dancing, people will be impressed. Second of all, even if they forget ALL of their steps and revert back to prom sway, people will be so busy taking pictures, crying or whatnot to not really care how their dancesteps look. While the guests will indeed be paying attention, it's not the kind of attention you're afraid of...

[PasoDancer]

I've purposely kept this in my mind "as simple as possible", but the teacher wants "a showin'" of something by the end, in December. We're just going to hope to cram in New Yorkers, spot or underarm turns, fifth breaks, and some little fru-fru something like a grapevine crossbody into a turn and new yorkers. Maybe a half-moon. Everyone's scared of the half-moon here.

Or, she can take my old fat Ickis in a circle at a walk and trot. HE won't be so congenial.

[Peaches]

If you go the choreography route (as opposed to the learn to follow anything route) that seems workable. Keep in mind, non-dancers are easily impressed.

Seems to me that trotting Ickis would be a difficult demo for a high school classroom, lol.

What's a half-moon? (I know it's an AT term, and I know what that is, but in ballroom?)

[PasoDancer]

It's that thing where you change hands, the lady cha-chas to the right, turns, and then they're in shadow position kind of. Not the best description, but Chris or someone could say it better.

[tanya_the_dancer]

I've purposely kept this in my mind "as simple as possible", but the teacher wants "a showin'" of something by the end, in December. We're just going to hope to cram in New Yorkers, spot or underarm turns, fifth breaks, and some little fru-fru something like a grapevine crossbody into a turn and new yorkers. Maybe a half-moon. Everyone's scared of the half-moon here.

Or, she can take my old fat Ickis in a circle at a walk and trot. HE won't be so congenial.

Can you tell me one thing - what course is this project for? Just wondering, as a parent of a future high-school student.

[cornutt]

What's a half-moon? (I know it's an AT term, and I know what that is, but in ballroom?)

Basically it's a crossover/New Yorker done with a cross-hand hold. In the DVIDA syllabus, you get into it by leading a cross-body and switching hands as you do it. Then, the lead leads a crossover using his right hand, comes out of it with a cross-body, another right-hand crossover, etc. There are several ways to exit it; I like to lead a reverse turn, switch hands at the end of it, lead one more crossover, and finish with an underarm turn.

I've also been taught a variant called "cha-cha circles" in which each of the cross-handed crossovers is preceded by a reverse turn and followed by a natural turn leading into the next cross-body. It's great for making followers dizzy. :D

[Twilight_Elena]

Skwiggy. Wow, annoying people! Call them and tell them that if they still want you to choreograph for them, then they must get their act together. State clearly that you have a busy schedhule and mention a deadline of the "in the following 4 days we must get together for practice" variety. Try to sound serious and stress that you're a working girl and you really don't have time to goof around.

T_E

[PasoDancer]

I have no idea. She didn't think it necessary to concern us with the details- eek.

This is crazy, and it's shaping up to be a bad day, too. Our former teacher wants to come back and take up our lessons again, but how do we tell the other teacher to clear off? There's considerably more drama in this than I can really relate, and it's driving me crazy. If we can't reach something, I'm going to quit taking lessons here, and just go once a week, crazy gas prices or not, to DanceWorld, or up to All that Dance in Lexington. This is ridiculous, and I don't pay the equivalent of a car payment each month to fall into a damn soap opera.

[Sagitta]

hmmm...I know quite a few girls who relaxed and as followers were able to do quite a lot in one night. It depends on how good this girl is, really. I've in fact got a person come in with sandals, tell me she has never danced, followed amazingly, and gone away knowing left and right turns, multiple turns, bachata, salsa, merengue, cha cha cha... CBLs, NYorkers, sweet hearts...

[waltzgirl]

I'm of the opion that for many people there is a minimum price they have to pay before they will take something seriously - doesn't matter the quality of free help, if it's free it's not woth much.

Were it not so pricey, I'd suggest making your wedding gift a typical 3 hour block of lessons at a studio - not because it would be better training, but because they might actually show up and get the job done - and more importantly you wouldn't have to worry about how. But then again, I see a lot of teachers sitting around waiting for their wedding couples to show up... and if it's your money not theirs, they still might not.

Maybe you could buy them an intro package. That would at least get them started. Even if you had to help them after that, they would have gotten the idea that's it's something they need to spend some time on.

Edit: oops, posted before reading the whole thread! Sorry for the redundancy!

[PasoDancer]

hmmm...I know quite a few girls who relaxed and as followers were able to do quite a lot in one night. It depends on how good this girl is, really. I've in fact got a person come in with sandals, tell me she has never danced, followed amazingly, and gone away knowing left and right turns, multiple turns, bachata, salsa, merengue, cha cha cha... CBLs, NYorkers, sweet hearts...

Yes, but I'm jumping to the conclusion that you have previous experience teaching people to dance. We've been told NOT to teach anyone, because we'll just do it wrong anyway, Lol.

[PasoDancer]

Well, we're officially being strung along. Whatever happens, happens. If she completes her project looking bad, it's no skin off our noses. This just in from an IM conversation with my partner, who's at work:

Me: No word from Fluffy?

J @ Work says:
Fluffy's Mom said she thought Fluffy would have not opened it, since she was expecting it to be from me... nevermind the fact (and I told her this) the subject said "mentoring: ballroom"
J @ Work says:
i let Fluffy's Mom read the copy you sent me, and she's going to have Fluffy check her mail

I says:
So she emails you... and then doesn't think to CHECK her own email.
J @ Work says:
i think her head's up her @$$

I says:
What did Fluffy's Mom say about the email?
J @ Work says:
she said it was good and informative

I says: and a complete waste of time...

Summary- she chooses email as preferred communication medium, and then neglects it.

[Chris Stratton]

Summary- she chooses email as preferred communication medium, and then neglects it.

Well that's the thing about email - it's a great communication medium, and also a great non-communication medium for when you want to avoid dealing with something.

[fascination]

Well, we're officially being strung along. Whatever happens, happens. If she completes her project looking bad, it's no skin off our noses. This just in from an IM conversation with my partner, who's at work:

Me: No word from Fluffy?

J @ Work says:
Fluffy's Mom said she thought Fluffy would have not opened it, since she was expecting it to be from me... nevermind the fact (and I told her this) the subject said "mentoring: ballroom"
J @ Work says:
i let Fluffy's Mom read the copy you sent me, and she's going to have Fluffy check her mail

I says:
So she emails you... and then doesn't think to CHECK her own email.
J @ Work says:
i think her head's up her @$$

I says:
What did Fluffy's Mom say about the email?
J @ Work says:
she said it was good and informative

I says: and a complete waste of time...

Summary- she chooses email as preferred communication medium, and then neglects it.
man, that would be it for me paso...she'd be toast

[PasoDancer]

NOW she emails back with her schedule. HOPEFULLY this was just an awkward start. Looks like Sundays and Thursdays, and that works out really well for us. I just hope we can work this out. I had an official meltdown during lesson, and need ANYTHING with minimal caloric intake to make me feel better right now.

[Larinda McRaven]

New Yorkers, spot or underarm turns, fifth breaks, and some little fru-fru something like a grapevine crossbody into a turn and new yorkers. Maybe a half-moon.

Far too much if you ask me. Give her rumba box with an underarm turn and 5th position break. Also a foxtrot basic and promenade underarm turn. Keep each dance simple, one smooth and one rhythm. Give her the fundemental differences in why you step on a ball vs heel for the two styles. Tell her to stay to the left for smooth or facing for rhythm. That is all she really needs to know. Easily taught in one hour actually.

As for the presentation she could even just show videos and describe to the audience/class/teacher what they are seeing. You could help her to write a "voice-over" to go with the video to make sure she gets the details right. Show a costume and talk about the construction, maybe some shoes, a tailsuit if you can find one for her.

She is not trying to win any competitons, just present a project. I think we judge the general public too harshly in their expectations just because ours are high. But the average person wanting lessons thinks they can learn on two hours because they don't need or want to know anymore than what they will easily learn in two hours, regardless of what we know they could learn in 4 months, 1 year, or 5 years.

Now if she is cancelling on you and wasting your time that is a different issue, one I would take up with her parents! But just because she doesn't want to learn dance as much as you want her to... well that is almost every student/teacher relationship. You just learned what it is like to be a teacher.

[Larinda McRaven]

At the last 2 weddings I went to where I taught the bride and groom as a favor (my sis and some good friends), everyone turned to me during the dance, and after the dance, and asked if I taught them, and commented on how great they looked. So they were paying attention, and everyone did want to know if I was responsible. ;)

I'd say that is because no one expects a wedding couple to look fabulous. !And! no one really cares when they don't. But a couple that actually succeeds in pulling off some nice dancing is always going to garner praise. But certailny no one says "uugh they were just dreadful, that wasn't even real dancing!" (except maybe ballroom people watching a layman dance...)

Congrats though, on teaching them well enough to make heads turn! Hard to do for wedding couples with limited time.

[PasoDancer]

Actually went through those learning pains back when I was giving riding lessons. I've just learned now what it's like to have someone THINK they know what they want, Lol.

The good thing is that humans are more easily reprimandable than animals.

[waltzgirl]

Just keep in mind -- to her, this is HOMEWORK! By definition, to be avoided and put off as long as possible ;) .

[fascination]

The good thing is that humans are more easily reprimandable than animals.
only some of them...LOL;)

[fascination]

She is not trying to win any competitons, just present a project. I think we judge the general public too harshly in their expectations just because ours are high. But the average person wanting lessons thinks they can learn on two hours because they don't need or want to know anymore than what they will easily learn in two hours, regardless of what we know they could learn in 4 months, 1 year, or 5 years.

But just because she doesn't want to learn dance as much as you want her to... well that is almost every student/teacher relationship. You just learned what it is like to be a teacher.

I think this is very, very true...we may tend to look at those wedding dances now with a certain amount of cynicism, but really they are quite innocent and lovely... and aside from the very rehearsed nature of them, which is what bugs me, the skill level is irrelevant and invisible to most everyone who's going to be there...and likewise, with this endeavor...

this is what is amusing me (incidentally) about all of the complaints from people who know "jack-diddle " about dancing regarding why there are no top notch clebrities on DWTS...I just want to scream.."because you dummies, it's really really hard and not everyone wants to put themselves through it".

[skwiggy]

Quick update on my saga. I took the high road and didn't give the wedding couple a hard time for standing me up. I sent an email explaining that if they wanted to do this, they would have to commit to a certain number of lessons. I gave them my limited availability and basically told them it would have to be then or not at all. They weren't available for a couple of my few available days, so they agreed that there won't be time to make this work. Yaaaaaaaay! Time is at such a premium for me right now, I couldn't be more thrilled to have this fall through. What a precious gift I just received... 4 evenings back.

Thanks for all of the great suggestions. I'm so glad I won't be needing any of them this time. ;)

You can bet the next time someone asks me for something like this, I'll be quick to recommend a great pro to them.

Off to buy something easy off their registry. :car:

[tangotime]

Simple description-- think cross body lead , lead with right to right hand hold, turning to mans right into crossover break after 3 steps of back break-- used in salsa, cha, bolero etc. Difficult to create a real visual on this, but you may recognise it if you see it performed somewhere .

[tanya_the_dancer]

Quick update on my saga. I took the high road and didn't give the wedding couple a hard time for standing me up. I sent an email explaining that if they wanted to do this, they would have to commit to a certain number of lessons. I gave them my limited availability and basically told them it would have to be then or not at all. They weren't available for a couple of my few available days, so they agreed that there won't be time to make this work. Yaaaaaaaay! Time is at such a premium for me right now, I couldn't be more thrilled to have this fall through. What a precious gift I just received... 4 evenings back.

Thanks for all of the great suggestions. I'm so glad I won't be needing any of them this time. ;)

You can bet the next time someone asks me for something like this, I'll be quick to recommend a great pro to them.

Off to buy something easy off their registry. :car:

Good for you!

[Twilight_Elena]

I wonder if Paso's "student" has contacted them.

T_E

[PasoDancer]

Looks like she's coming to a tea dance this Sunday, and we'll practice afterward.

[PasoDancer]

Wow, Jinx- I'd just posted and hadn't seen TE's yet, Lol!

[Twilight_Elena]

Wow, Jinx- I'd just posted and hadn't seen TE's yet, Lol!

I think I should major in Divination and Arcane Magic.

T_E

[Terpsichorean Clod]

I think I should major in Divination and Arcane Magic.

T_E
Mmmmm...I like dancing with psychic followers!! :D