Help with counting Hustle???

[ballroomboilergirl]

I feel like the biggest goober saying this, but I have the HARDEST time keeping time for Hustle! :( Everyone I know uses a different way to count (some say "&step12", some say "&123"), plus I just have a hard time applying it to the music...how do you all count Hustle, and what are some easy Hustle songs to try and practice with?

[Sagitta]

Well ballroomboilergirl Hustle is not the easiest danec to learn because of its syncopated timing. I took one hustle class several months ago and really struggled with it! I moved on to other things, but I do want to learn this. Hopefully someone who knows how to hustle will help us out soon. :)

[oldancer]

There has been a lot of discussion on this thorny subject, but basically Hustle is counted in two distinct ways. New York Hustle is '&,1,2,3' and Detroit (+ LA) Hustle is '1,2, &,3'. Barry Douglas is the main teacher of Detroit Hustle and has an excellent and extensive video instructional series. His web site also has an excellent explanation of his counting method, and its advantages. www.i-hustle.com/commentary.
Although New York style Hustlers will tell you its just a matter of where you start counting, this is not really true, because the '&3' stepping 'settles' your position and gives stability to both dancers - which is lacking in NY style and adds to the difficulty of learning this dance.
If you are being taught at a ballroom I don't know what exactly you are being taught. My suggestion would be to learn with a partner from videos. Much cheaper and it allows you to study steps over and over.
As for music, the simplest type to start with is any classic Disco number. Get a disco compilation CD and find something fairly slow to begin with.
Good luck! Hustle is a great 'upper body' dance (compare with WCS which is legs and foot-work) but the failure of the Hustle community to settle on a standardized counting is really holding the dance back!

[Vince A]

With the exception of a recent class, at every workshop, class, or private lesson . . . the count has been &1,2,3 . . . that is what I'd go with as I feel this is what the final word on "which Hustle count" will settle on.

I've also seen two style-looking Hustles, and I've seen Hustle slotted like WCS versus non-slotted Hustle.

I use the non-slotted, lots of arms (especially the follower), with a count of &1,2,3.

Music . . . any medium, straight-beat (no breaks) music: as mentioned above - disco music from the 70s is good, but make sure don't go too fast while you are learning.

[Sagitta]

Welcome to the forums oldancer!! :)

[oldancer]

That's interesting that you are from out west but have always done "&123". I know my partner and I are (literally) 'out of step' here in the east. Having tried both I strongly feel 12&3 is easier, especially for beginners - all dances should start ON the beat!, not jerk forward.
We dance slotted, having come from WCS. Its easier on a crowded floor, but when we have more room I certainly let the slot wander around.
I know Barry Douglas has a strong following, so I don't think the matter is realy settled.

[pygmalion]

Hi oldancer! Welcome to the forums. :D

[Vince A]

That's interesting that you are from out west but have always done "&123". I know my partner and I are (literally) 'out of step' here in the east. Having tried both I strongly feel 12&3 is easier, especially for beginners - all dances should start ON the beat!, not jerk forward.
We dance slotted, having come from WCS. Its easier on a crowded floor, but when we have more room I certainly let the slot wander around.
I know Barry Douglas has a strong following, so I don't think the matter is realy settled.
oldancer . . . welcome to the DF . . . and I certainly agree with you that the issue is not settled. I'm just seeing more and more Hustle being taught as &1,2,3. There are very strong reasons for beginning most dances on 1, but choreographically speaking, some dances shouldn't - but these are are my views and should be taken as only that.

Even WCS doesn't start on count 1 . . . but rather on &1 . . . my view again!

I start learning a new Hustle routine next month for competition, with a brand new Pro . . . it'll be interesting to see which count she teaches!!!

[SDsalsaguy]

Let me add my welcome as well oldancer. :D

As far as counts, every ballroom studio that I have seen teaching hustle -- be it on th east coast or the west coast -- uses the &1,2,3 timing.

[ballroomboilergirl]

Wow, I had no idea that Hustle timing was such a debated topic :shock: I guess I'm not the only one who struggles with it...the syncopation definitely makes Hustle hard to learn initially. However, oldancer, I found Barry Douglas' commentary on the "12&3" method of counting to be quite insightful and helpful...the Detroit/LA Hustle timing makes so much more sense to me than the NY Hustle timing of "&123". It seems much more logical to start out moving forward on the 1 rather than awkwardly pitching backward. However, as you mentioned, the only real problem is that you are "out of step" with the multitude of people who do NY Hustle. Eventually I will probably revert back to NY timing, but for now, while I'm learning Hustle, I think I will stick with the Detroit timing :) Thanks!

[Vince A]

Just for you ballroomboilergirl . . .

3.1 On The Count In Hustle
Many nationally known teachers (Torres, Kiehm, Schwimmer, Montez,..), some who have been teaching Hustle since it evolved in the early 80's, prefer to count it as "&1 2 3" (quick-slow-slow-quick) Be careful with this, as at least two very reputable Hustle teachers of the &123 school verbalize this rhythm as quick-*quick*-slow-slow. The second quick (the '1') is taken twice as long as the first (the '&'). Why on earth they use the same word for two different timing concepts (first Q = Q, second Q = S) is unexplainable!
Here's another common incorrect way of teaching the rhythm: I have seen it counted out loud "one two and THREE", but a voice print would show the rhythm: 1 2 a 3 <- dance count
step step hopstep


(1/16 notes are written 1e&a2e&a3e&a4e&a...)

In an effort to accent the 3, the "and" yell is 1/4 beat from the 3 instead of the proper 1/2 beat, rushing the together-fwd without adequate time to make the steps smooth. Consequently, people typically "hop" on the "and three" and either rock or do not take a proper step on count 3. The whole 1/2 beat is needed to change the motion and start moving forward. (When done wrong, it looks funny. Since there is not time to change the body motion, people hop in the air so their feet can do the step forward, but their body does not move.)

Reasons for the &123 count: If we use the convention that 1-2 is where FORWARD motion starts, then it becomes immediately clear that:

in WCS, the woman starts forward on 1-2 (the double unit) and rests on 5&6 or 7&8 (the second triple unit),
in ECS, she starts forward on 1&2 (the first triple) and rests in place on 5-6 (the double unit).
The &123 school says that by the same logic, Hustle should be &123. One might be inclined to say that "1" is the first forward step, so the count should be 1 2 3&. The only problem is that this makes the man start on his right and the woman on her left, and this is just _too_ out of touch with the rest of social dancing. So we put the "&" at the start so the man can start on his left and the woman on her right. So then the &1 is where the forward motion starts. The end points of "&1 2 3 " have little velocity, but do have potential energy (the lean). The end points of "12&3" have near peak velocity (kinetic energy), but less potential energy (lean). Since the woman should be in motion between the "3" and the "1" of the "12&3 12&3" count, "3" is not a natural stopping point in *walk-though* mode (the only place where names and numbers are important - when actually dancing, all communication comes through the lead and follow; whether your partner counts base-2 in Swahili or learned Venusian names for dance figures, should matter not at all.). When *talking about* and demonstrating named patterns in Hustle, it's nice to have the patterns start and end near the natural points of non-movement. That means when standing and talking, you get to stand still between patterns at spots where you're supposed to be standing still. (OK, everybody hop up, but don't land yet, because I want to explain the foot position your supposed to use to start next figure :-) Both counts have problems with freezing between patterns, but it seems clearer for beginners to stop near a minimum velocity point. The beginning and ends of figures counted "&1 2 3" are much closer to natural stopping points (still not perfect, but closer.) Maria Torres, one of the founding members of Hustle USA, a national Hustle organization, says: Regarding count: "It's &1 2 3."

Reasons for the 12&3 count: The &123 school says that their count has historical precedence. However one poster writes: First, I have a bit of a problem with those who characterize the &123 count as 'traditional'. I learned Hustle ten years ago, in 1985, and I learned it with the 12&3 count, which was considered the 'traditional' count in my circles at that time.

It is useful to be able to demonstrate figures starting on count '1'. It is also true that the end points of "&1 2 3 " have little velocity, but do have potential energy (the lean). The end points of "12&3" have near peak velocity (kinetic energy), but less potential energy.

However, 13&3 is a better count and the break point is more appropriate for teaching beginners. It's easier to add the correct velocity at the beginning of a figure than it is to add the correct lean. This is consistent with the way figures are broken down in other dances, as well. Starting on the & in Hustle is like starting on the & in the middle of the coaster step in west coast swing. Instead, WCS figures are generally accepted to start on the second beat following, which matches the 12&3 timing. There's also a high potential energy foot closure in waltz, just like the '&' of Hustle. It comes at the end of the figure, on the 3, not at the beginning of the figure. Finally, there's the lady's quarter turn in quickstep (or the gent's chasse finish), which has the same dynamic exchange between kinetic and potential energy as the lady's Hustle basic. It's counted SQQS, corresponding to the 12&3 timing.

There are many of the top dance teachers in the country using the "&1 2 3" approach, but that still doesn't explain how one justifies turns ending on half beats. I have taught many different forms of dance for many years and I have yet to find one where a complete step pattern ends on a half beat, other than the "&1 2 3" approach to Hustle.

As Tom Mattox (who promotes the 12&3 count) says "we start the dance *on* the music, not before the music. what a novel concept!". It's weird that a pattern starts before the 1 beat.
A woman I danced with the other day said she had trouble with Hustle because starting on the left foot was so confusing. Huh? Well, using &123, the *1* is indeed on the wrong foot for her. I don't blame her for being confused.
A point I heard from a local teacher is that it is reassuring that Hustle start *1* *2*, just like west coast swing.
There are many of the top dance teachers in the country using the "&1 2 3" approach, but that still doesn't explain how one justifies turns ending on half beats. I have taught many different forms of dance for many years and I have yet to find one where a complete step pattern ends on a half beat, other than the "&1 2 3" approach to Hustle.

[oldancer]

Thanks for the welcome, everyone.
I certainly admire your courage, Vince - I wouldn't be willing to go to a Hustle workshop if I didn't know what counting system the instructor was using!
Can you please explain to me what you mean by WCS starting on &1?
I know, of course, that good followers in WCS have a 'hesitation' before moving forward on 1, but there is no step or weight shift involved that could be considered an &1. As for leaders, we all step back and to the side with our left foot on the count of 1, don't we?
For there to be a step to count there has to be an actual movement of the foot, or at least a weight change, so I don't understand what you mean.
As for choreography, we don't do any, so I can't comment on the need for an &1 step in that

[pygmalion]

Okay, so since we're all asking questions about hustle, WCS, etc, timing. Here's another question. What is the footwork for a hustle basic counted 12&3? &123 I understand, but I can't visualize the 12&3 footwork at all. :?

[oldancer]

Your question about the basic footwork is timely, since our moderator's extensive technical explanation seems to suggest (although I certainly don't follow it all), that counting 12&3 implies that the first step is with the right foot for leaders, i.e. it is the 'same step' as the '1' of &123. This is simply not true. In patterns, including the basic, the '&1' is equivalent to the '&3'.
So counting "12&3' the leader steps forward with his left foot on 1, back on his right on 2, back on his left on &, and settles into a balanced position, with the right foot pointing forward and the left foot still weighted. The follower does the same, but on opposite feet. A compression is created on 1, which 'powers' the rest of the move, ending with the couple in a slightly extended open position. Going into a sweetheart position the leader leaves out the &, and ends with his left foot pointing forward and his back (right) foot slightly weighted, and this in parallel foot position to the follower, who does regular stepping through her 180 degree turn. The leader may vary his stepping between 1,2,3 and 12&3 as needed by his position during various patterns.
Although in theory it ought to be possible for dancers of both patterns to dance together, in practice it doesn't work very well because &123 lacks the stability of the 3 position and instead has that jerky rush of the &1, which of course is why we feel the 12&3 stepping is so much easier to learn, more graceful and produces a more visually elegant dance.
Anyway, all I am left thinking is that if a method requires such a complex technical justification as that presented by the moderator, that complexity alone (just as it would in maths or science) says there is something wrong!
For myself, I have enjoyed this exchange, but I am getting back to the dance floor! I hope you all enjoy your dancing futures! Bye for now![/img]

[Vince A]

Thanks for the welcome, everyone.
I certainly admire your courage, Vince - I wouldn't be willing to go to a Hustle workshop if I didn't know what counting system the instructor was using!
Can you please explain to me what you mean by WCS starting on &1?
I know, of course, that good followers in WCS have a 'hesitation' before moving forward on 1, but there is no step or weight shift involved that could be considered an &1. As for leaders, we all step back and to the side with our left foot on the count of 1, don't we?
For there to be a step to count there has to be an actual movement of the foot, or at least a weight change, so I don't understand what you mean.
As for choreography, we don't do any, so I can't comment on the need for an &1 step in that
Ok. let me try yo explain what I'm talking about . . . and remember, this is what I do because it works for me:

I'm going to quote someone here, which will help get me started . . .

Damon's Laws of Following
A follow at rest tends to stay at rest and a follow in motion tends to stay in motion with the same speed and in the same direction unless acted upon by an unbalanced force.

The acceleration of a follow as produced by the net force of a lead is directly proportional to the magnitude of the net force, in the same direction as the net force, and inversely proportional to the mass of the lead.

For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

Back to me:
As a follower, their job is to follow. As a leader my job is that of a leader and to keep the follower moving.

It really doesn't matter what count you use . . . a single count . . . a rolling count, etc. You can even leave some counts out. It doesn't matter what count I use either.

However, we both need to be moving. The body need to do something on every beat. If your body is moving to the beat is, say, 1, 2, 3 & 4, 5 & 6, it's only "part" of the dance . . . again, you need to be doing something on each beat, and on the & . . . . . . there IS movement.

A lot of judges even score this way . . . it is the upbeat to the downbeat!

I just watched my wife do WCS, and she is doing something with her feet on the & before the 1 . . . and it makes the dance look even more exciting.

I also just danced with her, and my feet are doing something on the & before the 1, and the other &s as well.

I am not saying this is correct and that you are wrong. I am saying that this is what I do, having learned it from one of the best WCS female Pros this past summer . . . and my WCS dancing has really come alive. It is full of action all the time . . .

Sorry if I confused anyone!

[twodance]

The word hustle encompasses about 8-10 different dances. The two that have survived are the Merengue Hustle, counted as 1,2,3,4 where each step is one beat of music. The other Hustle is known as the Swing Hustle or N.Y. Hustle and is counted &1,2,3 where the first step is syncopated and the rest of the steps are taken one beat each. This last timing is what screws people up. The beat of music comes back around every 12 beats. Try counting the Hustle as &123,&456,&789,&10 11 12. Then the music fits the step count in 4/4 time.

[Vince A]

Hi twodance . . . I missed you when you joined last week . . . but Welcome to the Dance Forums . . . to you and your wife! It is really nice to have other instructors as members on the the site.

When I was struggling with Hustle and trying to learn it . . . . the &1 2 3 through &10 11 12 was the way that helped me the most. In fact, it is what finally put a "natural" Hustle count into my head - meaning I don't have to count anymore . . . it just comes natural with the music.

We certainly appreciate your expertise . . . thanks . . .

[michiganblkman]

Is there a youtube video that shows the differences between the two counts?

[pruthe]

Go to you tube and enter search term "hustle dance barry douglas" and you will get a few examples of 12&3 count. If you search for just "hustle dance", just about all the other examples are &123 counting.

[gary718]

In my area the studios always teach the &123 timing (quick, slow, slow, quick) with the lady starting with a right, left rock step, then stepping forward with their right foot. If you learn in a club or many of the independent teachers, it's taught with the 12&3 timing, starting with the lady stepping forward with the right foot and rocking right left on the &,3 (slow, quick, quick, slow). I dance at both types of venues and just count the way I think my partner is more comfortable. Since you're using only 3 beats of the 4 beat measures, you're always crossing measures and after the dance is started it doesn't matter anyway. I've taken lessons from instructors using both timings and they don't teach anything different beyond the start. I have heard some instructors and dancers call the quicks and slows incorrectly, but they do so for both timings, and the good dancers seem to dance it right anyway.

Gary

[Easy]

I don't do much hustle, but since you're only using 3 counts of of music per step to music that is actually structured to have 4 beats per measure....does it really matter what beat you start on? If you started &123, then the next pattern would be &412, then &341, then &234, eventually making it back to &123 again.

What I'm saying is that it doesn't matter what count you start on, but what matters is WHERE you start in the pattern and choose what part to ACCENT. Am I wrong here? I really don't think anyone's count to the music is different...only that they start in different places...some syncopate in the beginning of the step and some syncopate later, but musically it all is the same. I am speaking musical here...not where one settles or this or that.

[Easy]

Gawd I'm way out of my element here. I woulda thought &123 translated into quick quick slow slow. When I have time, I'll have to read back and follow this thread more closely :)

[wooh]

I don't do much hustle, but since you're only using 3 counts of of music per step to music that is actually structured to have 4 beats per measure....does it really matter what beat you start on? If you started &123, then the next pattern would be &412, then &341, then &234, eventually making it back to &123 again.

What I'm saying is that it doesn't matter what count you start on, but what matters is WHERE you start in the pattern and choose what part to ACCENT. Am I wrong here? I really don't think anyone's count to the music is different...only that they start in different places...some syncopate in the beginning of the step and some syncopate later, but musically it all is the same. I am speaking musical here...not where one settles or this or that.

This is what I've always thought. Starting on &123 will eventually get you to a 12&3 in the music. I can dance along counting &123 or 12&3 and it's all the same to me.

[nucat78]

We dance 4-count, so it's just 1-2-3-4 or back-replace-walk-walk if you prefer, which makes it pretty easy. I don't think I've ever seen 3-count danced around here, but I could be wrong.

[pruthe]

I think for a beginner it's probably easier to learn the 12&3 count since you are not starting out on a syncopation. It's not easy to get lady to start step back on this syncopation in &123 count. On the other hand, I think &123 count is more in use at hustle comps and in areas of US where hustle is still hot (ie. NY, NJ area).

[Casey]

Saturday Night Fever was on tv last night; John Travolta is fantastic and seeing the hustle as a club dance was really fun. They also do the electric slide in the movie. What a trip!

[Peaches]

I think for a beginner it's probably easier to learn the 12&3 count since you are not starting out on a syncopation. It's not easy to get lady to start step back on this syncopation in &123 count. On the other hand, I think &123 count is more in use at hustle comps and in areas of US where hustle is still hot (ie. NY, NJ area).I agree. It's just easier, when you're starting, to start on the downbeat and be done with it.

I find that after I first start (or after I get off-track, which happens with multiple spins/turns for me) is about the only time I care about the count of the music. After that, it's all pretty much the same to me.

As for 12&3 v. &123...don't much care. I can dance just as well to either one. (Or 4-count, if the music is insanely fast.)

[samina]

I don't do much hustle, but since you're only using 3 counts of of music per step to music that is actually structured to have 4 beats per measure....does it really matter what beat you start on? If you started &123, then the next pattern would be &412, then &341, then &234, eventually making it back to &123 again.

What I'm saying is that it doesn't matter what count you start on, but what matters is WHERE you start in the pattern and choose what part to ACCENT. Am I wrong here? I really don't think anyone's count to the music is different...only that they start in different places...some syncopate in the beginning of the step and some syncopate later, but musically it all is the same. I am speaking musical here...not where one settles or this or that.
I find starting on &1 all the time helpful to immediately launch into the feel of the rhythm. That's how my very able hustle friend starts me off all the time.

[samina]

We dance 4-count, so it's just 1-2-3-4 or back-replace-walk-walk if you prefer, which makes it pretty easy. I don't think I've ever seen 3-count danced around here, but I could be wrong.
It.Is.So.Fun...like flying. :)

[Easy]

We dance 4-count, so it's just 1-2-3-4 or back-replace-walk-walk if you prefer, which makes it pretty easy. I don't think I've ever seen 3-count danced around here, but I could be wrong.

I think 4 count is used mostly when the music gets too fast to do an enjoyable hustle. The opposite would hold true for 3 count. I think 3 count looks more hustly with the variations of speed in the steps. I do think that 4 count is the easiest style to teach, and it still looks great.

Guys tend to even do 3 count even when the music is extremely fast. It's comfortable for them, because they are doing the lazy man's hustle...point here, tap there, stand here....and sling the woman this way and that way while the whites of their partner's eyes are showing lol

If you can remember the old toy planes that were motorized and held onto with string...the boy/girl would hold the string while the plane did all the work flying around them. I'm THAT boy when someone wants me to dance faster than I care to in a hustle, swing, or cha cha. I resort to the lazy man's style :)

[etp777]

We dance 4-count, so it's just 1-2-3-4 or back-replace-walk-walk if you prefer, which makes it pretty easy. I don't think I've ever seen 3-count danced around here, but I could be wrong.


We teach 3 count!! Well, my pro does at least, not sure about any other pros at that studio.

Parents studio teaches "push-pull", which is basically 4 count. I only vaguely know it, but of course they always play a bunch of music for it when i'm visiting there.

[Maryontheweb]

In what way are HUSTLE and DISCOFOX different ?

Do they have the same count?

[nucat78]

"push-pull" would describe our 4-count.

[synchronicity]

In what way are HUSTLE and DISCOFOX different ?

Do they have the same count?

All the Discofox I've seen when I was dancing in Germany and Switzerland was counted either "1,2,3" (if you did 'point' or 'tap' instead of a rock step) or "1,2,&3" (if you did the rock step).

I never danced Discofox with anyone who did "&1,2,3" (which we're calling "NY Hustle").

You could watch the Youtube Discofox videos to confirm, but honestly, I can only stand to watch them on 'mute' -- Modern Talking and other Euro-disco music gives me a headache.