How on earth do leaders confuse the 1 and the 5?

[nycsalsero]

The title says it all. Some people, even relatively advanced dancers, will dance 123-567- as 567-123-!!! If this happens to me even for a second, I HAVE to fix it before continuing, I almost physically can't dance if it's wrong. I don't understand how anyone can confuse these things, after progressing beyond a basic level. And I pity the women that must dance with them....

On a related note, my pet peeve in salsa songs is when the music goes 123-123-567, that is, there is a little hiccup in the usual 4-4 time. Why on earth do bands play songs that do this?? You would have to MEMORIZE the song to avoid screwing up those parts. These bands must think they are so clever, making everyone screw up by doing that....

[salsero-in-apprenticeship]

You must be talking of me - I have no musical background at all and am very happy to hear the 1 and the 5. And as long as I stay on the first beat most followers dont care. These who do really care start by themselfes. The steps remain the same.

And let me tell you - dancing on 5 also is fun for me :-). Please do not discriminate the ON5 Dancers and dont be a "Countracist" ;-).

[sac76]

agree but isnt it nicer if we all Leaders dance on 123 instead of 567? guys any suggestions how to differentiate 123 and 567? Sometimes both are exactly same and its so bloody difficult to differentiate unless we watch the more advanced dancers dancing. Guys how to rectify this? any suggestions?

For 123 123-567 just step in place othe first 123 and break again.....this is time for u to do body groove...

[sweavo]

Heheh. The reasons they confuse the 1 and the 5 are many:

1) "music" per se goes on 4 beat bars rather than 8 beat phrases
2) Though the clave is 2 bars long, it does not indicate which is the 1 and which is the 5
3) Salsa is highly syncopated so accents (therefore the beats) are much harder to find than in pop or rock music
4) the basic conga pattern is 4 beats long
5) clever musicians sometimes arrange the music so that it's hard to tell 1 and 5
6) lazy bongoceros often go to the bongo bell a bar late, making the 5 sound like a 1.

As to the extra bar... with experience you can pick up when these are going to happen. If your intro is on a 3-2 clave you can usually bet that it will switch to 2-3 before the REAL dancing starts. Particularly jazzy arrangements will monkey about with the structure until you can't tell what side of the clave you should be on.

A couple of ways to deal with a reversal:

Two slow walks (which reverses your footwork and confuses your folower) followed by a mambo jazz (which shows her where the 1 (or the 6 if on 2) is).

Start a X body lead and hold her back for 4 counts in the middle of it.


If the music is changing clave a lot, I just dance through it and wait for it to settle.

@sac76: "stuff starts" near the one. If you sing the singers melody, the beat nearest where you started singing is probably the 1. Also a change of gear usually happens around the 1 rather than the 5.

[Joe]

They have drugs for that problem, you know. Ritalin, or something?

[ash88]

Unbelievable that they can possibly be mistaken! Those damn leaders!

And can you imagine, some of them even start on the TWO! The TWO!?

They should quit now and save the followers the embarrasment...

:roll:

[noobster]

The title says it all. Some people, even relatively advanced dancers, will dance 123-567- as 567-123-!!! If this happens to me even for a second, I HAVE to fix it before continuing, I almost physically can't dance if it's wrong. I don't understand how anyone can confuse these things, after progressing beyond a basic level. And I pity the women that must dance with them....
Oh, man. I hate that. It reallys screws up my dancing, too, because I get distracted and can't think about anything other than hoping he switches back to the 123. I also get this really crabby look on my face and the poor guy can't have any idea why. :(

[tangotime]

Here we go again steve !!-- how many more times do we need to explain that music is written in bars,. First 4 beats ascending --2nd four descending ." Pick up " bars do occur from time to time,as do syncop., but thats the whole point of writing music . you have to pay attention and start to interpret what the band is saying musically. The directional start for dance has for ever been controversial. Most chain schools back in the fifties , taught mambo, side left on one-- break back on 2,-- yet-- many of the more " advanced " street dancers, broke forward on 2-- and yet again, many latinos step side right on 4 and break forward on one. You can even see dominicans start mer. with their r. foot ., when traditionally, starting l. on 1.Having taught both salsa and mambo with all possible combos,it becomes a matter of personal choice . The purists ( tend to lean that way ) are more dogmatic about the approach. For all you beginners, just try and stay on the same beat you start with , as you progress, try different ideas.Lastly, just enjoy the music and the experience

[borikensalsero]

I'm in the other side of this thing, adhering to rules as if a must displays slavery. There isn't such a thing as right or wrong in dancing. The higher the skill the more it should be realized how the subtleties of "right and wrong" don't really mean a thing. They can be left behind to express even further of the self. To the music it makes absolutely no difference whether we step forward on the 1 or 5. If we judge that which we do by phantom ideas well learn nothing but follow and trap ourselves in a world of he said, she said, therefore I do.

I actually find it absolutely great when I see advance dancers recognize that they can step in any direction. It shows the have the ability and maturity to play with a song and still go through the exact same sequence of moves without ever loosing a beat. That’s mastery of craft. Ability to only see ahead is but bliding to that which is at the sides, back, top and bottom.

Saying that dancing forward on the 1 for a leader is wrong, equates to stating that Van Gogh couldn’t paint because his strokes didn't follow the same pattern as his contemporaries.

Rules aren’t given as chains for our thoughts, simply to catapult/kick start that which we do. Once we learn them, it should be expected that they will help free the mind. If we can’t free ourselves from the chains, we’ve but followed.

To me; I can't stand it when a dancer can only dance in one direction. That simply statess a beginner who’s been fed a couple of patterns, hence fooled to think they posses some skill. The greatest of skills is the use of the mind, obstacle free. Physical skill is but a social status that feeds a façade that doesn’t realize it’s yet to build a foundation.

[cornutt]

If the leader is coming from a swing background (to name one thing), most swing is done in 6-count patterns. Since the dance is constantly rotating through the front side and the back side, it doesn't matter which side you start on. So most swing dancers will start as soon as they hear a beat.

[tangotime]

B/s is so correct on this. That is why when I dance with "latinos " , it,s always fun to see which way they approach the dance. To me, thats half the enjoyment . The challenges that confront one , as you commence, particularly with new salseras, creates a certain excitement and anticipation about what is to come .Pretty much most of the better dancers dont seem to care what your choice of beat is, more how you interpret the moment .

[squirrel]

They have drugs for that problem, you know. Ritalin, or something?

LOL Nice as usual Joe...

[amo_dile_que_no]

I'm in the other side of this thing, adhering to rules as if a must displays slavery. There isn't such a thing as right or wrong in dancing. The higher the skill the more it should be realized how the subtleties of "right and wrong" don't really mean a thing. They can be left behind to express even further of the self. To the music it makes absolutely no difference whether we step forward on the 1 or 5. If we judge that which we do by phantom ideas well learn nothing but follow and trap ourselves in a world of he said, she said, therefore I do. ...

I actually find it absolutely great when I see advance dancers recognize that they can step in any direction. It shows the have the ability and maturity to play with a song and still go through the exact same sequence of moves without ever loosing a beat. That’s mastery of craft. Ability to only see ahead is but bliding to that which is at the sides, back, top and bottom.


To me; I can't stand it when a dancer can only dance in one direction. That simply statess a beginner who’s been fed a couple of patterns, hence fooled to think they posses some skill. The greatest of skills is the use of the mind, obstacle free. Physical skill is but a social status that feeds a façade that doesn’t realize it’s yet to build a foundation.

I was going to respond with something along this line (certainly not with Boriken's eloquence), but I've been salsa dancing for not quite 2 years now and didn't feel I had the expertise to back up my opinion. So, it is with great delight that I say I am in complete agreement with Boriken.

In almost anything in life, certainly creative activities, strict adherence to "rules" is often a hallmark of someone who is not comfortable in the craft. I don't claim to be a master by any means, but when I'm on the dance floor, I'm enjoying te music, my partner, our interaction. So if I end up not catching a break in the music and find myself breaking forward on the 5 it doesn't bother me, or any of my partners for that matter. People just need to enjoy the experience and not focus so much on what is right or wrong, authentic or not authentic, better or worse. Just dance. :)

Thanks, Boriken!

[Salcero]

On a related note, my pet peeve in salsa songs is when the music goes 123-123-567, that is, there is a little hiccup in the usual 4-4 time. Why on earth do bands play songs that do this?? You would have to MEMORIZE the song to avoid screwing up those parts. These bands must think they are so clever, making everyone screw up by doing that....

Maybe musicians have other motives when constructing a song, other than making that song palatable with people that dance ET On2? When I watch the musicians dance they seem to dance well to the music whether its the Cuban, V step or whatever they are doing. Then again, I don't usually see them dancing ET On2 to their own music so their frame of reference may be different.

When I'm in a zone, I can feel the shift and thus make the adjustment accordingly. If nothing else, it tends to make me more intune and spontaneous to the music as opposed to being robotic.

[Peaches]

I don't think it's such a simple thing to hear the 1 v the 5. I come from a pretty strong musical background--I can count and conduct beats 'til the cows come home. But when I started dancing it was definitely something very different to think of it in terms of 2 measures (8 beats), or a 6-count or 3-count pattern against 4 beat measures. And, likewise, it was interesting to think about there being a definitely 1 and a definite 5 in a 2-measure group.

It was not something I'd ever listened for, and the thought was new. I had no idea of how to distinguish a 1 from a 5, and I've got a pretty good ear. I could tell, when I was practicing (aka dancing in the kitchen) to music if something didn't feel right, but it took about a month before I connected the counting to 8 in classes with things feeling off.

I was lucky in that I figured it out quickly. I put a salsa cd in my car stereo, and made it a point to figure out what everyone was talking about. About a mile or so down the road--I drive fast--it was clear to me. I still can't tell you how I can tell the difference...or how I can count music...or how I can tell a 1 from a 3 from a 7...or how I can tell a bastard phrase...or how I can tell when the composer switches time signature to throw in an extra beat or two. I can't explain it...but I can hear it and i can feel it.

Maybe some guys just haven't figured it out yet, or are having a harder time feeling it.

[blueguitar322]

Yeah I come from a musical background (been playing for 18 years) and it's usually pretty clear to me where the 1 and 5 are...and which is which.

However, that 1-2-3 1-2-3 5-6-7 thing always gets me! I'm still learning how to anticipate in salsa music... There's a place in rock/pop (what I play on guitar/piano) where I can almost know exactly what's going to come before it happens, but I'm not anywhere near that in salsa yet.

All that said...I've had four different instructors teach me the basic step over the last month and a half. Each of them, at some point, have counted "5 6 7 8" on the 1-2-3-4...so I don't think I'll ever hold it against anyone else. It's not wrong - just a slightly different styling. Not as dramatic a difference as on1-vs-on2...subtle, but still there.

[tangotime]

try q.q. s.-- thats the speed to which you dance--1 beat for each q-2 for the slow ergo-- 1 bar .I always teach my groups on a qqs basis ,and never have a problem getting immediate results .Give it a try and see how you do .

[Kali Ma]

Maybe musicians have other motives when constructing a song, other than making that song palatable with people that dance ET On2?

Noooooo, say it isn't so!
Ahahahahahahahaha! :D

[devane]

The title says it all. Some people, even relatively advanced dancers, will dance 123-567- as 567-123-!!! If this happens to me even for a second, I HAVE to fix it before continuing, I almost physically can't dance if it's wrong. I don't understand how anyone can confuse these things, after progressing beyond a basic level. And I pity the women that must dance with them....

On a related note, my pet peeve in salsa songs is when the music goes 123-123-567, that is, there is a little hiccup in the usual 4-4 time. Why on earth do bands play songs that do this?? You would have to MEMORIZE the song to avoid screwing up those parts. These bands must think they are so clever, making everyone screw up by doing that....


Yeah, this is sometimes called dancing on the wrong side. The reason it happens is the person who leads isn't listening properly. It feels horrible because even though you can dance, at certain times vocals and instrument changes will tell you are out of sync. Also your subconscious (unless you're still counting) will tell you that you are on the wrong foot which is as good as being off the beat.

I feel that my feet are a instrument in the music, I'm not just dancing to a beat, I'm dancing with all of the musical intsruments so it is important to me to sync in at the right time.
The musicians in the band follow these rules so I'm going with them.

Where my feet are isn't important, you can do a basic or other steps in various ways but when they move is.

There are exceptions when you bend the rules like when you do a shine or a styling element which requires you to stay on the same foot etc.......but in the end you sync back on the 1 at the right time.

And yes, all songs are not made with dancers in mind. There are songs I hear which are too fast for mere humans to dance to or songs which break all musical structure and confuse the dancers.

[Josh]

However, that 1-2-3 1-2-3 5-6-7 thing always gets me! I'm still learning how to anticipate in salsa music...

All that said...I've had four different instructors teach me the basic step over the last month and a half. Each of them, at some point, have counted "5 6 7 8" on the 1-2-3-4...so I don't think I'll ever hold it against anyone else. It's not wrong - just a slightly different styling. Not as dramatic a difference as on1-vs-on2...subtle, but still there.

That "thing" :wink: is called a clave change... changes from a forward to reverse clave, or vice versa, and is done by the melodic portion of the band. Sometimes you can hear them coming, sometimes they are very unpredictible. Just depends on the song.

As for counting "123" on a "567" or vice versa, it can happen in class when in the middle of a demo or pattern, and instead of stopping the instructor just keeps going. Again, it's not wrong to dance on the 5, but technically the 1 is the 1, the 5 is the 5, and so on... so to count 5 for a 1 is incorrect. But, to dance on it.... eh, whatever. I can't do it because it's like listening to pig latin for me. 1-8 is a phrase, and if I'm dancing on the 5 I feel like I'm hearing a sentence being spoken backwards. Just doesn't jive with my body.

For some more info:
http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?t=3625

[devane]

Yeah I come from a musical background (been playing for 18 years) and it's usually pretty clear to me where the 1 and 5 are...and which is which.

However, that 1-2-3 1-2-3 5-6-7 thing always gets me! I'm still learning how to anticipate in salsa music... There's a place in rock/pop (what I play on guitar/piano) where I can almost know exactly what's going to come before it happens, but I'm not anywhere near that in salsa yet.

All that said...I've had four different instructors teach me the basic step over the last month and a half. Each of them, at some point, have counted "5 6 7 8" on the 1-2-3-4...so I don't think I'll ever hold it against anyone else. It's not wrong - just a slightly different styling. Not as dramatic a difference as on1-vs-on2...subtle, but still there.

The thing is there are a lot of different types of song you will hear at a salsa club label as salsa. You could have a Celia Cruz song or even a song from Buena Vista Social Club like "el cuarto de tula" label as the same type of music. Some songs have a clear clave, some don't.
Just immerse yourself in the music.

ps
As for your teachers having counted wrong. That would be just a verbal error on their part but "1,2,3..,567.." doesn't mean anything to them.They don't count when they're dancing.They could say "dah,"dah,"dah,..,dah,"dah,"dah,..". 1,2,3 just means to them the 1st half and 5,6,7 the 2nd half. It helps to count when learning the timing of certain moves.

Learn the move, concentrate on the feeling of the movement as a whole, then stop counting.

Actually when I dance with people who count I talk to them so they can't count:cool:

[Josh]

I still can't tell you how I can tell the difference...or how I can count music...or how I can tell a 1 from a 3 from a 7...or how I can tell a bastard phrase...or how I can tell when the composer switches time signature to throw in an extra beat or two. I can't explain it...but I can hear it and i can feel it.

Maybe some guys just haven't figured it out yet, or are having a harder time feeling it.

Yeah, some students were asking about that yesterday. Besides the "just hearing it" concept, which obviously doesn't work for lots of people (and, why would they ask if they could "just hear it"?), all I can try to help students with is to get them to listen for specific instruments. For example, during a conga solo or something, if you are listening only to the conga, you will get off beat. Because the conga is all over the place, tons of syncopations, you name it. But if you are listening for the clave, or the bass, or some other repetitive instrument which has its pattern established during that solo, then that keeps you on time.

What makes a beat the 1 or the 5 has to do with the unevenness in these instruments. For example, the bass in Ray Barretto's Acid hits on these beats (I think, this is hearing the song in my little ol' head):

1 3& 4 4& 6& 7 8

or, written in two measure form:

1 3& 4 4& | 2& 3 4

It's not symmetric between the two measures (1, 3&, 4, 4& on the first half of the phrase, 2&, 3, 4 on the second half).

[borikensalsero]

I feel that my feet are a instrument in the music, I'm not just dancing to a beat, I'm dancing with all of the musical intsruments so it is important to me to sync in at the right time.
The musicians in the band follow these rules so I'm going with them.

Where my feet are isn't important, you can do a basic or other steps in various ways but when they move is.

I don't see direction as indicative of "in-synch" with the music by any means. Though I do see as embeded idiology that forces us to choose right from wrong without the music caring.

For example, old school dancers only danced stepping forward on the 2 side of the clave. Whether the top layer (first beat) changed or not, they always stepped on that 2 side (leader with left foot), keeping that "release" of energy on the same side of the clave. They argued that changing directions to the one meant that the dancer was not listening to the foundation rather changes on the top, therefore being superficial listeners. It is easy to hear the top, but could they hear what drove to the top? to top it all then came all social interactions ( a man always makes the first move and it is forward, the strength of the music is for the man, the woman uses her soft, sensual, and sexy side with the "softer" side of the clave, rather than taking up the bruteness that best fits a guy, blah, blah, blah) as long as a dancer follows anything in the music, especially the foundation, they are alright.

All arguments make sense to the beholder, however, the mere fact that there are arguments tells us that there isn't such a thing as right or wrong. Stating that we must adhere to a given direction when doing something implies that all others who do not do likewise are simply wrong or not in-synch with the music. In synch means more than a dogmatic outlook of dance, which is actually the least of... I've seen people who can't dance a lick of Mambo yet are more in synch than 90% of the mambo dancers I've ever seen. How in the world can they be in synch if they aren't dancing to the one, even keeping a steady beat? Well, listen to the music, crafting a masterpiece is more than following, it is leading actions that express the song to more than its technicalities. If technique is all we hear, then we've missed the point of dancing.

We can't trap ourselves, for a dancer to become part of the music they must become more than arguable technical make up.

[devane]

I don't disagree because I love tweaking with steps or moves where they break the rules layed down on day 1. But salsa is a partner dance and there must be a minimum common agreed protocol to communicate what is right, wrong or okay. Everyone can't have their own unique interpretation for On1 or On2, where the conga , clave is in a bar............. there enough confusion already.
"follow the rhythm" means different thing to different people but to dance with another person you have to be on the same bandwidth.


ps
Just looked at your photo-gallery. I need the check out where you dance.
Madre Mia or what! Me voy......:raisebro:
What beat though:rolleyes:

[sweavo]

I don't see direction as indicative of "in-synch" with the music by any means. Though I do see as embeded idiology that forces us to choose right from wrong without the music caring.

For example, old school dancers only danced stepping forward on the 2 side of the clave.

Wow Boriken, do you have references for any of this stuff? I was already (by reading about the music and practising the timbales) coming to the idea that I'd like to step forward on the 2 side for exactly that reason... the 2 side is masculine and the 3 is feminine, and beat 2 of the 2 side is the most emphatic of all. Would be nice to quote some authors when I get pulled up on it by some follower or other :-)

[jschaab]

Ok, I mostly stick to ballroom, but just stuck my head in here :). Am I reading correctly that stepping forward on 2 is considered somehow wrong? THats basically how I was taught to dance ballroom mambo (start forward on 2, everything else essentially like salsa). Why would that be confusing musically?

But salsa is a partner dance and there must be a minimum common agreed protocol to communicate what is right, wrong or okay.

Again a ballroom perspective... but wouldn't what is "right" be what was led?

[devane]

Am I reading correctly that stepping forward on 2 is considered somehow wrong?



No, everyone is well aware of different styles/systems. The issue is when of of the 8 beat phrase the lead starts on beat 5 or 6 (for On2 folks) instead of beat 1 or 2 the way he would of been taught.






Again a ballroom perspective... but wouldn't what is "right" be what was led?
:rolleyes: That's funny, that's an obvious strength of learning a standardised dance like a ballroom dance.......having a "standard" of good foundations.

I see people lead on completely random beats unaware of the music at all. But the reason for this is they're not taught musicality (which is common) or just they don't have an ear for rhythm at all.

[borikensalsero]

Wow Boriken, do you have references for any of this stuff? I was already (by reading about the music and practising the timbales) coming to the idea that I'd like to step forward on the 2 side for exactly that reason... the 2 side is masculine and the 3 is feminine, and beat 2 of the 2 side is the most emphatic of all. Would be nice to quote some authors when I get pulled up on it by some follower or other :-)

I don't particualry care to dance on any beat or any direction. But, I was put up to a gun and asked to choose, I would choose to dance forward on the 2 side of the clave for the very reasons, you mentioned.


On a side note, if I say potato with an english vs an american accent, would you understand me or would the pronounciantion be diverse enough to change the meaning of the intented action? that's how I see on5 and on1, same language different accent.

Com'on down devane... It's hot down here in NY, or maybe up here...

[sweavo]

On a side note, if I say potato with an english vs an american accent, would you understand me or would the pronounciantion be diverse enough to change the meaning of the intented action? that's how I see on5 and on1, same language different accent.


Heheh. Puts me in mind of all the people in North America who looked at me like I'd crawled out of the swamp when I asked for "a glahss of waughter"...
You'll still get plenty of people who could get what you mean, but won't until you say it properly.

[borikensalsero]

Heheh. Puts me in mind of all the people in North America who looked at me like I'd crawled out of the swamp when I asked for "a glahss of waughter"...
You'll still get plenty of people who could get what you mean, but won't until you say it properly.

LOL.... LOL... it's the right way or the highway...

BTW... Forgot to answer that I don't have any reference for this. I talk a lot to people who used to dance back in the day, and they run the same stuff by me over and over... so much so that even I remember what they say. Sadly, their knowledge was never documented. All that is left is oral stories handed down to nosy fellows like me. It is difficult to the determine the resemblance to the truth of those stories, but when they all sing the same tune, then you begin to realize that there is something to their experiences...

Story, I just met a guy, husband of my ladylove’s cousin. We were sitting down listening to my ipod, when he began to spew at me the very stories of dancers, cheetah club, the corso, the Bronx, central park in the 70s... The relationship between fans, musicians and drugs, the loss of flavor in new dancers, their robotic manipulation of the music… It was great, he was basically reiterating the stories I’ve been told by others.

He was a non dancer though, so he was always watching the crazy folks dance. Yet, what I felt most is how he was able to differentiate the flavor of dancers back in the day, as opposed to today. He kept saying that back then there were no two people who looked alike, where as today, bang, no two people look different. That back at the cheetah clubs people seemed to follow the music as opposed to the moves. It was a fascinating evening to say the least. He knew all of the songs I played for him, he kept saying, “God, I haven’t heard that since the early 70s” Then, he’d ask for more stuff. We went through hundreds of songs. He even knew preciosa by Impacto Crea, who the heck has heard of that??

[salsaForfun]

Wow Boriken, do you have references for any of this stuff? I was already (by reading about the music and practising the timbales) coming to the idea that I'd like to step forward on the 2 side for exactly that reason... the 2 side is masculine and the 3 is feminine, and beat 2 of the 2 side is the most emphatic of all. Would be nice to quote some authors when I get pulled up on it by some follower or other :-)

those who dance Felipe Polanco clave steps would, as far as i know, always do forward step on the 2 side of the clave (for the leader). He mentions this also in his instructional DVD.

Nidya Ocasio said something like following in her DVD : if you don't get/hear the conga but recognize the clave, guy would step forward on the 2 side of the clave. Otherways in her teaching i think the leader goes back on 2.

I like going foward on the 2 side of the clave personally but not always do that because some ET style ladies would stamp you as not understanding the music or "dancing wrong" or even backlead you!

[squirrel]

The thing is there are a lot of different types of song you will hear at a salsa club label as salsa. You could have a Celia Cruz song or even a song from Buena Vista Social Club like "el cuarto de tula" label as the same type of music. Some songs have a clear clave, some don't.
Just immerse yourself in the music.

ps
As for your teachers having counted wrong. That would be just a verbal error on their part but "1,2,3..,567.." doesn't mean anything to them.They don't count when they're dancing.They could say "dah,"dah,"dah,..,dah,"dah,"dah,..". 1,2,3 just means to them the 1st half and 5,6,7 the 2nd half. It helps to count when learning the timing of certain moves.

Learn the move, concentrate on the feeling of the movement as a whole, then stop counting.

Actually when I dance with people who count I talk to them so they can't count:cool:

Sometimes it is confusing if you stop in the middle of the class to switch back to 123. Beginners don't understand what happened and get confused/frustrated/angry. So, even if I tend to hear veery well the 1, I will not change out of the blue in the middle of a class.

Maybe when students are more advanced (they have been dancing for more than 1 year - and they should have social danced as well on a regular basis) I will stop and start on1 again.

When I dance socially, I feel I am on the wrong "part" of the music if the steps are reversed. I guess it has to do with instruments and accents rather than with 123-567 as a beat. What I do when leaders dance on5 instead of 1 - I do a surprise move, like a slow turn extending on 8 beats instead of 4 (see Edie the Salsa Freak's Styling videos for more ideas - she calls it "stealing the move") to get the leader back on1. :) Most of them don't mind. And if the leader is a close friend, I tell him directly... ;)

[borikensalsero]

Nidya Ocasio said something like following in her DVD : if you don't get/hear the conga but recognize the clave, guy would step forward on the 2 side of the clave. Otherways in her teaching i think the leader goes back on 2.

She actually doesn't care how the leader steps as long as he is on time. Even in her class you'll notice how there is no reference to numbers. So she gives queues in the music that tell when to start. She can go forward on the 2 or not... The key is to let students know that in a "monotone" style of dance both sides are reversible.
However, if you asked her for ground rules, she'll teach leader forward on the two side of the clave, or the second beat of the music, which she would have taught how to find through a breakdown of the music. She is an old school dancer with all the “old school” dance credo. A male would never start back in the chase of a woman on the first beat... A woman would never chase a man whose first step is a rejection of her actions.

In a Latino culture the man is the figure of strength, power, daring. He is supposed to test the waters first not to leave the woman vulnerable had she taken the first step forward, be it a rejection, or an attack... A man gives the queue, a woman reacts by accepting or rejecting. It is socially unacceptable in a Latino culture to begin interaction by "rejecting" a woman with a first step backwards, so he must come on to her straight forward. Hence, why some instructors, using ET style, teach start forward on the 6, socially… even if they have no idea from where it comes.

We must think back to society generations ago. Women didn't take the first step in a relationship, they hinted, but never physically took that first step. Latinos, not as in a steady diet of rice and beans, but those who still think Latino, use that same belief. A woman always waits for the man to take the first step. Hence, you must ask her to dance. Must ask in a date, must ask her in marriage. The musts in Latino relationships are all started by the male. All of them are considered forward actions. It is basically saying, I am the man and I will take that first step so that you know that I am both interested in you, and there for you. I would never ask of you to come to me, I will come to you... When that first beat hits, the man acts, he invites, the dance begins...

While it is all belief, it is also rooted in cultural behaviour. The more we understand the culture, as biased as it might be, we can understand why, in that argument, it makes sense for the man to be the one who starts the forward motion. Culture over I think therefore it is.

[tangotime]

As you know mi amigo, many latinos ( a habit I picked up) start side r. and move a little side to side , feel the music before they commit ( dominicans do it constantly in merg. ) Just a gentle way of saying musically -- Hi-- wanna dance ?, it also gives one the opportunity to adjust hold , and reach a comfort level . ( but there again I.m old school and dont want to rush into anything ! )

[borikensalsero]

As you know mi amigo, many latinos ( a habit I picked up) start side r. and move a little side to side , feel the music before they commit ( dominicans do it constantly in merg. ) Just a gentle way of saying musically -- Hi-- wanna dance ?, it also gives one the opportunity to adjust hold , and reach a comfort level . ( but there again I.m old school and dont want to rush into anything ! )

Yeap, as long as it is not a "run away" step, it is a positive action...

you know what I always wondered... how, in a defined street dance such as Mambo, were these type of "rules" merged. I can understand why they are done, even where they come from, but is there more than a sub-conscious implication? Kind of like the musicologist looking at salsa who tries to find-out whether NY City musicans meant to change son as they did, or was it merely by accident. Hmmmm

[Ron Obvious]

My cuban teachers don't care about the 1 or the 5, they simply dance to the clave in such a manner that they always begin on the 3-side. If they are aware of the fact that the clave can have different directions (which I doubt), that is certainly nothing they tell theirs students. And I'm not talking about beginner classes, we have all danced several years.

[borikensalsero]

My cuban teachers don't care about the 1 or the 5, they simply dance to the clave in such a manner that they always begin on the 3-side. If they are aware of the fact that the clave can have different directions (which I doubt), that is certainly nothing they tell theirs students. And I'm not talking about beginner classes, we have all danced several years.

Ron,
Do you make the distinction of both sides of the clave? I ask because I only acknoweldge one clave. Although I understand what is meant by the 2-3, 3-2. I only think of it as one clave, which gains superficial meaning when the "conscious" layers are added.

The clave really has no direction, if we were to hear it at any point, without the music on top, we would not know what to lable it... then precieved differently based on "outside" stimuli...

Whether it is 3-2, or 2-3 doesn't matter, there is really only one, and why it can be danced in any which way... one clave, many interpretations...

[tangotime]

Great q. mi amigo-- will give you my take on it. If i go back and think about how the salseros of the day approached the floor ( as opposed to the "trained dancers " ), there were very distinct differences, even among the street dancers . Some broke fwd on 2, others did a little side to side . Makes me think that it could be cultural. As you know better than I, most latino homes are playing music all day ,and one can imagine mama at the sink moving side to side with the music ( even seen papas with their little girls on their feet, moving side to side ) maybe thats where it stems from.Know this-- every latino lady I have ever danced with, ever has had a problem commencing in that fashion ( not to mention the double time tap on the pre ceeding break ) It leads me to think that it is all very inherent ,when people dance as well as they do, by and large, without any formal training , you really have to take stock on their approach, I did and it has served me well in my teaching and dancing. As far as the transition from Cuban to P.R.style, one has to remember, that most of the music was written in 2/4 time back in the day when .That certainly affected the way some people began to change their ideas .

[SalsaTO]

Salsa music is on eights. Beat 1 is the strongest of those eight beats. Beat 5 is the second strongest of the eight beats.

Starting on five or changing from one to five isn't a problem for social dancing. However, if you are in a competition, the judges will deduct marks for 'falling off' the beat, or changing from one to five to one.

Dancers with really good timing will start on that one and stay there the entire night regardless of the little hiccups the musicians may throw into their songs.

Some dancers will not use the clave, but will use the timbales or other instruments that carry the rhythm to keep them 'on time'
or 'on beat.' Sometimes the keyboard carries the rhythm when the timbales are doing a solo. Listen to some of your favorite music and try to find what instrument is carrying the rhythm. It may change during the song.

The main thing is getting out there and dancing up a storm and having fun - regardless of the ones or the fives.

[sweavo]

Salsa music is on eights. Beat 1 is the strongest of those eight beats. Beat 5 is the second strongest of the eight beats.


Hmm, I think I know what you're saying here, but if you really listen to the rhythm section and the structure of the accents on most mambo music, most accents are on the 'and' of some beat, and the strongest beat of the 8 is 2 or 6. The bass is pretty much all on the 'and's. On other cuban rhythms you get strong 3-4 and 7-8 accents.

Cumbia based tunes give you a nice fat 1-3-5-7 though!

[Josh]

Salsa music is on eights. Beat 1 is the strongest of those eight beats. Beat 5 is the second strongest of the eight beats.

Just want to point out that the 1 may feel the strongest, but when compared with the 5, for example, the 1 need not actually have the most volume, or "punch," to still "be the 1."

When coming out of a break, it's often the 1 that's first played coming out of the silence, and here it is definitely the beat that hits us first. But in much of a song, there's nothing really stronger about the 1 that defines it as such. If the 1 were actually stronger, then fewer people would have a problem with timing, as they would be able to just pick the loudest beat. As I said earlier, it's really the unevenness of the instruments which weave the layers of a song that define a pattern for us, and our brains organize the music into a pattern.

For example, listen to this short clip (http://www.mysharefile.com/v/3176461/YayBoyClip.mp3.html) of "Yay Boy" by Africando. There's nothing strong, spectacular, or even interesting about the 1 beat. In fact, most of the vocals start on 8, as do the trumpets toward the end. I also hear the bass jumping around--I hear it sometimes on 2&, 3, others on 3&, 4, often on 8, and so forth, but in the whole clip I never hear it hit on 1. I hear the cowbell (or something cowbell-ish) on the odd counts, but the 1 is not stronger than the other odds. In fact, the only thing I hear that actually starts on the 1 is the piano, and even then sometimes it's just a continuation from a previous phrase. Take someone who's not great with timing, or who's never really tried it before, ask them to find the prominent beat, and I would bet that a large percentage would yell "one!" when the lead vocalist prominently sings "Yay!", which is on the 8.

So it's not the strength of the beat that determines a 1, or a 5, or any beat. Rather, it's the uneven phrasing of the instrument that causes our brains to differentiate. Thoughts?

[Ron Obvious]

Ok, so the clave itself is no different, but I still feel that music in which the 3-side of the clave aligns with the 1 feels different than when the 2-side does that.

To me it's analogous with the fact that the left side and the right side of the road are structurally the same, but still a traffic system in which we drive on the right side is different from one where we drive on the left side (changes the steering wheel configuration in cars for example) .

Ron,
Do you make the distinction of both sides of the clave? I ask because I only acknoweldge one clave. Although I understand what is meant by the 2-3, 3-2. I only think of it as one clave, which gains superficial meaning when the "conscious" layers are added.

The clave really has no direction, if we were to hear it at any point, without the music on top, we would not know what to lable it... then precieved differently based on "outside" stimuli...

Whether it is 3-2, or 2-3 doesn't matter, there is really only one, and why it can be danced in any which way... one clave, many interpretations...

[sweavo]

Ok, so the clave itself is no different, but I still feel that music in which the 3-side of the clave aligns with the 1 feels different than when the 2-side does that.


I agree. My favourite format for a song starts on a 3-2 clave for the singing bits, then goes to 2-3 for the dancing part. The 3-2 feels more folky and the 2-3 more aggressive.

You could say it's "all psychological" but hey, what's music listening if not subjective?

Extrapolating wildly on my dimly conceived notions of sexualization of drums and the yin & yang of it all, the 3-2 is the woman leading the conversation: in the musical question and answer the question is on the 3-side and the response is a firm 2-side. In that way, each 2-bar phrase resolves and the music is stable. On a 2-3, the question is an aggressive (masculine) challenge and the 3-side is the response, answering the challeng with a question. With the clave this way round there is never a final answer and the music drives forward...

[borikensalsero]

Ok, so the clave itself is no different, but I still feel that music in which the 3-side of the clave aligns with the 1 feels different than when the 2-side does that.

To me it's analogous with the fact that the left side and the right side of the road are structurally the same, but still a traffic system in which we drive on the right side is different from one where we drive on the left side (changes the steering wheel configuration in cars for example) .

Yes, indeed it feels different... just wondering about your thoughts on the clave, individualy. always wondered how other salseros viewed the clave on its own.

[SalsAlx]

guys any suggestions how to differentiate 123 and 567?This is probably the #1 question I get from my students when we discuss musicality and salsa timing.

I teach 3 ways to distinguish the 1 from the 5. The first two are less than ideal, but functional in many cases.

The first one is only useful if you recognize the clave pattern from the beginning of the song. Simply stay on that rhythm. I do believe that the PERCUSSION section in most salsa songs stays on it's 3-2/2-3 rhythm throught the entire song. Therefore if you pay close attention to the percussion instead of the melody, you won't have a problem. The problem with this is that you have to ignore the melody, and if you (even CAN ignore the melody) what fun is that? So if you listen to the melody IT will often change. BUT! When there is a clave-change I've found that it generally switches back within a few 8 counts. Have patience. That is if you are sure that it's the music and not some mistake that you have made in your footwork.

The second is what most people teach: listen to the breaks, the slaps, the emphasis, the singer. Quite often the most emphatic notes will be on the 8 or the 4 and sometimes on the 1. The singer will sometimes come in on the 1. But I really don't recommend this because it's really not always accurate. If the singer is singing with the clave, and it's a 2-3 clave, then he's coming in on the 2, not the 1. And the more creative the musicians, the less you can count on them coming in on the 1. So I don't encourage this method. There is a better way after all.

The last I've found to be the most successful. When I was just beginning and I asked teachers how to find the one they would tell me to just listen to the music. I'll hear it after a couple of months of listening. Pfft... Months?? Luckily I figured out an answer for MY students. Though it's still hard to hear at first, I'll tell you something you can try to listen for. Really what my teachers were saying was "there IS a subtle difference between the first bar and the second bar." That difference is what some call "call & response". Though typically call & response refers to one musician calling and another musician (or the audience) responding, it's useful in salsa to think of one bar calling, and the other bar responding. The first bar (1-2-3-4) calls, and the second bar (5-6-7-8) responds.

Since the 8 count is broken up into 2 individual bars, it's a lot like the 2 halves of a sentence. If you just say the first half of the sentence... "my dog spot" It feels unfinished. You might want to hear more about my dog spot. What about my dog spot? Then you hear the rest of the sentence, "likes to catch." Now you have a complete idea about my dog spot: My dog spot... likes to catch. Now if you just walked into the door and all you heard was "likes to catch," Then you might want to know WHO likes to catch. And if you pay attention maybe you will hear the speaker repeat it. In salsa, he (the music) WILL repeat it. OH! My dog spot likes to catch!

So converting this analogy to salsa, the melody of the first bar will feel unfinished until you hear the melody of the second bar. Think of the difference in punctuation. There is either a comma or a period. In other words, listen for a comma or a period. If you hear a comma, then the next beat will be the 5. If you hear a period, then the next beat will be the 1.

There's some more info on this on wikipedia.


Now, Ladies (and guys) who really hate dancing off time, let me give you some advice. Make a game out of it. Vocalize the count... not to show your fella that he's off, but as a challenge to yourself. (Guys you can do this too.) When I find that I'm off beat (I mean REALLY off, like not even on the 5, like I'm on the 3 or the 8 or worse!) I count the beat outloud and stay on the wrong beat. I'm sure some of the beginning girls I dance with hate this, but I'll count to the music and stay on the wrong beat. But by doing that I actually CHOOSE the wrong beat and PLAY with it! I OWN that beat now. If you're going to do this you have to keep the TEMPO!! Stay on the 3, or the 4, or the 5 or whatever! Explore the "wrongness" about that beat, and make it "right". You might find some interesting aspects of the music that you hadn't thought to explore before. It gives you the opportunity to really try something new and to stand out! If you have people watching, recognize that you are off-beat by ACCEPTING it and instead of changing it, PLAY WITH IT!!! They will appreciate it and 1) they probably won't even know that you are off-time or 2) they will SEE that you KNOW that you are off-time and that you are making delicious lemonade out of your lemons, or I guess really good salsa out of your squished tomatos. :D

Now if he's off tempo, then you have no choice but to ignore the music. All I can say GUYS is at LEAST STAY ON TEMPO! That way even if you're off, you can still play with the music.

Hope this helps.

[blueguitar322]

Good information SalsAlx...welcome!

[genEus]

As I was trained as a musician since I was pretty much able to read and write, I never had difficulties in finding any beat in the music, and definitely not in something as "simple" as 4/4 or 2/4 beat. So, it does always confound me how people just don't get it, and moreover, why do they keep dancing if they have no correlation of their steps with the actual beats...

I really don't remember what exactly I was taught in the myriad of music harmony, theory, solfege, dictation and rhythm classes but I think to hear the beat I do listen to the melody more than anything else. The harmonic progressions in salsa music are very simplistic, and like SalsAlx pointed out, an equivalent would be answer and response, or beginning of a sentence, and the end of a sentence.

A funny thing though, my teacher listens to the percussion or the bass to hear the beat, sometimes I think he really doesn't care if there's a melody in the song or not. And, sometimes he will lose the beat if the musicians do something funky in the middle of the song, either slow down or speed up, while I hear the melody and know that they're in the middle of their phrase (for example), someone's just taking a detour, and will get back on track in a few seconds. At the same time, if it's a descarga and at some point there's only a percussion line and a bass, he can totally stay on track with it, while I, at times, don't have a clue, until they get back to the melody. heh.

I have the hardest time coming up with ideas on how to "explain" how to hear the music. I never thought that it could be taught to someone casually, or just by listening to music, but one of my best friends, who says he was the guy who was so off beat, girls would refuse to dance with him in the beginning, said, that by listening to hours and hours of salsa, it "JUST CLICKED." In a year that i've been watching him dance I haven't seen the guy off beat even once! That was the most eye-opening experience for me. He can't really tell me how he hears it either, he says he "just does." heh. So, maybe that approach is worth something. Just listen to music and make yourself count, basically find the first beat and keep counting. A vast majority of music is based on the same patterns, so it may be easy to get into a habit of hearing the music and "hearing" the beats.

[delamusica]

Last night I had a really wonderful dance on 3. As long as my leader picks a beat and stays with it, I don't really care which one it is.

[SalsAlx]

A funny thing though, my teacher listens to the percussion or the bass to hear the beat, sometimes I think he really doesn't care if there's a melody in the song or not.
...
I never thought that it could be taught to someone casually, or just by listening to music, but one of my best friends, who says he was the guy who was so off beat, girls would refuse to dance with him in the beginning, said, that by listening to hours and hours of salsa, it "JUST CLICKED." In a year that i've been watching him dance I haven't seen the guy off beat even once!

Your teacher is quite right (as are you). The beat establishes the count. But the melody is useful for distinguishing the first bar from the second. Luckily for us salsa dancers the piano is both a percussive instrument as well as a melodic one. So if we only listen to the piano we can still stay on beat. The bass is similar. I've found myself focussing on the bass a lot more recently. I think that you've found that you can't rely on one or the other all the time.

I also have a good friend who has a HORRIBLE time finding the beat. He's tone deaf, but I just know that he'll get it one day if he focuses and tries hard enough. I think he ignores the pause at the 4 and the 8. He is fairly advanced in my class, (He's actually one of my assistants.) but it's embarrasing for him to be done with the turn-pattern 3 8-counts ahead of the class. The funny thing is the girls LOOVE dancing with him, even though he can't stay with the music. He is an EXTREMELY good lead, not only because he knows the proper amount of force and connection, he feels the girl and knows when it's appropriate to execute the moves. He doesn't use the music's rhythm as his metronome, he uses the girl's rhythm, which in one way makes him a better leader than guys who stay on beat with the music. For THEM to be able to lead well, the girl has to stay on beat as well. I try to do both, which of course is every leader's goal, right? I can't wait to see my friend get the beat. Once he accomplishes that, the sky's the limit for him.

[sweavo]

Hi SalsAlx

Both your posts seem to be about conveying the rhythm by explaining, and getting the rhythm by trying. Also you pooh-pooh that instructor's advice of "just listen you'll get it in a couple of months".

However, I think relaxed listening and enjoyment of the music is the #1 way to get timing and add expression to your dancing. It doesn't matter how scientifically you broke down the beat and how many strategies you have for finding the 1 vs the 5, if you're not enjoying the song, you're always going to be dancing against the music rather than because of it.

I'm certainly not saying that explaining and trying have no value. In fact I'm very interested in hearing others' views on this subject as it's something I have trouble explaining satisfactorily to others.

[tangotime]

A p.r. ? ( no doubt, very , very common in s. fla. )

[Josh]

However, I think relaxed listening and enjoyment of the music is the #1 way to get timing and add expression to your dancing. It doesn't matter how scientifically you broke down the beat and how many strategies you have for finding the 1 vs the 5, if you're not enjoying the song, you're always going to be dancing against the music rather than because of it.

I'm certainly not saying that explaining and trying have no value. In fact I'm very interested in hearing others' views on this subject as it's something I have trouble explaining satisfactorily to others.

I tend to agree sweavie. hehe. sweavie.

When faced with the question at hand, I tend to answer the same way. You can't just go into explaining phrasing, clave, brass instruments, bass, congas, and all that for someone who has had 3 or 4 group classes. Well, you could, but they'd be lost as most people are when you try to explain it to them. It's like trying to exaplain salsa steps... a visual of someone doing a pattern or even a basic will make infinitely more sense than a diagram, or an explanation.

Almost invariably (so I guess it's variably, but only slightly so), students who really are dancing on beat and to the rhythm, and visibly feeling it, are the ones who have salsa music and are listening to it (other than at a club or social--I mean in their cars, at home, etc), and are at least somewhat practicing the steps other than the one hour they're taking the class per week.

[SalsAlx]

Oh, I don't disagree with you at all sweavo and Josh, but there is a cerebral answer to the question the OP asked. Even after several months or YEARS of listening to salsa, many many students that I run into still can't distinguish the 1 from the 5. But within a month of listening to one of my musicality lectures, they are almost 100% of the time on the right beat. Even so, it does take a lot of practice and patience to learn the difference between the 1 and the 5. Listening to a lot of salsa is a requirement to really get it. You can't listen to an explanation and in 5 minutes start dancing on beat. The ear must be trained and the body has to be trained to stay on tempo. Music is art; therefore, to really get it, you've got to experience it. But a lot of students need/want to know what to listen for or how to go about training their ear to find the beat. I spent 3 months listening to salsa music before i even started to be able to find the 1! But if someone told me about the tumbao, I would have got it in a month. It took quite a bit longer before I could distinguish the 1 from the 5. Had someone explained call&response to me, I would have had it much much sooner. The cool thing with music is that it isn't only artistic. It's also mathematical. People are geared differently, so I think what makes for a good teacher is the ability to adapt to the student. This explanation, though fairly dry for many students, is an additional tool in your bag of tricks for the more mathematical/cerebral variety of student. And in my humble experience, very few people are able to distinguish the 1 from the 5 by MERELY listening to salsa. They NEED an explanation. Shoot! My co-teacher had been listening to salsa music for what? 5 years? She was practically a professional salsa dancer! But she would ALWAYS defer to me to start the count in class because she couldn't distinguish the 1 from the 5. Now that she has heard my lecture a few times she has zero problems finding the 1.

And naturally, you don't JUST explain to students. When teaching about the music of salsa, you HAVE to play examples. I was able to explain it to you all because I'm assuming that all of you have a few months or more of listening to salsa music under your belts. And most of you do know about the clave, mambo bell, etc.

Interesting discussion.

[devane]

What I do when leaders dance on5 instead of 1 - I do a surprise move, like a slow turn extending on 8 beats instead of 4 (see Edie the Salsa Freak's Styling videos for more ideas - she calls it "stealing the move") to get the leader back on1. :) Most of them don't mind. And if the leader is a close friend, I tell him directly..)

I think Edie stole this idea from Traditional Wing Chun Kung fu. The idea uses moves which violate all the basic principles of the system to correct a problem. They are considered "emergency techniques" are normally only taught to advanced students. The Kung fu council may go after her :D

My technique is the tell the girl to do 2 back-backs on the same leg. This fixs it without having to stop.
"Emergency techniques" is an interesting area, knowing how to hide your mistakes when things go wrong. Making a mistakes isn't a sin , not hiding it by stopping still is . I usually laugh when it happens anyway;)
I was dancing with this girl who was from a different style. It was only our 2nd time dancing together so we were figuring out a few things. At the end some people commented on how well we danced but we were thinking "a bit rocky but in a few more dances we should be cool". When a mistake happened it was hidden quickly. Just flow into something else.
What styling video was it? and where is it? (it's a very long video). I have the first one. I bought a pack of 5 or 6 on ebay for $40 a year or two ago.








Com'on down devane... It's hot down here in NY, or maybe up here...

Actually it would be "over here" as I'm way over here in Europe.
I would keep that place secret if I were you.:raisebro:


just wondering about your thoughts on the clave, individualy. always wondered how other salseros viewed the clave on its own.

That is true about it the clave by itself. It depends where it fits in with the other instruments or when you start listening which determines it's type 2/3 or 3/2.

[Sagitta]

Unbelievable that they can possibly be mistaken! Those damn leaders!

And can you imagine, some of them even start on the TWO! The TWO!?

They should quit now and save the followers the embarrasment...

:roll:

There is the 3 as well, too! Don't forget the 3!

[Sagitta]

And sometimes the music does change and the 1 becomes the 5. ;-)

[SalsAlx]

And sometimes the music does change and the 1 becomes the 5. ;-)
Doesn't the CLAVE remain 2-3 or 3-2 throughout the entirety of the song? The melody might change, but the true rhythm stays on the original clave. That's what I've been told by the salsagrooves experts anyway.

[sweavo]

Doesn't the CLAVE remain 2-3 or 3-2 throughout the entirety of the song? The melody might change, but the true rhythm stays on the original clave. That's what I've been told by the salsagrooves experts anyway.

No, the clave stays constant, but the music turns around it. When we say 3-2 or 2-3 clave we refer to how the clave relates to the other orchestration.


Listen to the intro to Tito Puente's Cuando Te Vea. The clave kicks off on 2-3 and the band plays a 16 bar intro. Then there is a single bar phrase before the next section. On that single bar the 2- half of the 2-3 clave happens, so the next bar is on 3... so now we are on the 3-2 clave.

In other words, with clave on the left and call/response on the right:
...
2 ... call
3 ... response
2 ... call
3 ... response
2 ... call
3 ... response
2 ... call
3 ... response
2 ... BRIDGE
3 ... call
2 ... response
3 ... call
2 ... response
3 ... call
2 ... response
...


So it's true that (a) the clave never varies and (b) the "clave direction" of the music has changed.

Damn. I bet there's no actual clave instrument played on that track.

[Brendan]

No, the clave stays constant, but the music turns around it.


...most of the time.
http://www.timba.com/fans/clave_debates.asp
About half way down is a section on clave license. I think it's only done by Cuban musicians though and they're usually a law unto themselves.

Brendan

[Ron Obvious]

...most of the time.
http://www.timba.com/fans/clave_debates.asp
About half way down is a section on clave license. I think it's only done by Cuban musicians though and they're usually a law unto themselves.

Brendan

Yeah, you can't make such precise laws to music. What if I started a band, where we change the clave direction itself. Then there would exist a piece of music where this happens, and such a statement that "the clave does never change" would be untrue.

Of course it could then be argued that this wouldn't constitute real salsa, but hey, that's already the case with much music today.

But basically, every band deals with this issue as they wish, and call their music whatever they wish...

[sweavo]

...most of the time.
http://www.timba.com/fans/clave_debates.asp
About half way down is a section on clave license. I think it's only done by Cuban musicians though and they're usually a law unto themselves.

Brendan

True as that may be, it's a bit distracting for SalsAlx who was saying "doesn't the clave stay 2-3 or 3-2 all the way through?" the point I was trying to make is that the clave continues, but the 2-3-ness or the 3-2-ness depends on the surrounding phrasing. According to the stuff I've read and all the (son-based) music I've listened to, actually reversing the clave (e.g. going 3-2-2-3 or 2-3-3-2) is rare. I don't recall hearing it ever, though I've picked up a couple of passages where percussionists have got the clave crossed.

/edit: fascinating read, that! Thanks for posting

[SalsAlx]

If I understand you right, since the 2-3-ness or the 3-2-ness depends on the surrounding phrasing, the clave (in effect) could appear to change when the surrounding phrasing changes since we generally don't LISTEN to the clave as our metronome (unless necessary). We generally listen to the melody or the other instruments, so if THOSE instruments add a bar,the clave might appear to change. If this happens...

2 ... call
3 ... response
2 ... BRIDGE
3 ... call
2 ... response

The entire phrasing shifts by one bar. But the clave remains. To those of us who listen to the melody or what-not the rigidity of the clave has actually made the CLAVE appear to have shifted, not the other way 'round. Even though the rest of the music is what shifted. Which means, during that "response-call" period... the clave would sound like 3-2 instead of 2-3 (or vice-versa).

Those LOUSY creative musicians are screwing it up for us rigid clave dancers!!! :P

Heh. Anyway. Could be confusing, but it makes a sort of sense. Cheese, if the clave playing fella would just loosen up a bit and go with the flow, right? LOL

Ah, but this is yet another reason to love the ever-increasingly intricate music style we so adore.

[Josh]

If I understand you right, since the 2-3-ness or the 3-2-ness depends on the surrounding phrasing, the clave (in effect) could appear to change when the surrounding phrasing changes

Yup. There is no "3/2" or "2/3", or "forward" or "reverse," except the melody which makes it such.

[Catarina]

This has been so educational! I feel so much smarter about listening to music after reading this thread!

[sweavo]

the clave (in effect) could appear to change when the surrounding phrasing changes since we generally don't LISTEN to the clave as our metronome (unless necessary). We generally listen to the melody or the other instruments, so if THOSE instruments add a bar,the clave might appear to change. If this happens...

2 ... call
3 ... response
2 ... BRIDGE
3 ... call
2 ... response

The entire phrasing shifts by one bar. But the clave remains. To those of us who listen to the melody or what-not the rigidity of the clave has actually made the CLAVE appear to have shifted, not the other way 'round. Even though the rest of the music is what shifted. Which means, during that "response-call" period... the clave would sound like 3-2 instead of 2-3 (or vice-versa).



You have it exactly on the button, SalsAlx. In Brendan's link, this is what the author calls "New York Style" clave change. Until reading that article I had thought it an almost sacred rule about clave, but it seems Cubans are not so uptight about it as New Yorkers, and "Clave License" (where it really does change) is also possible. The citation for that is Rebeca Mauleon, who is a San Franciscan, very friendly with Changuito of Los Van Van, who plays by his own rules anyway...

As a gringo, I would not dare arrange a piece where the clave actually changed because the enraged voices claiming I did not know what I was doing would easily drown out the 3 people saying "actually, that's completely fine in Cuba!"

[Lita_rulez]

[...]

If we judge that which we do by phantom ideas well learn nothing but follow and trap ourselves in a world of he said, she said, therefore I do.

[...]

That’s mastery of craft. Ability to only see ahead is but bliding to that which is at the sides, back, top and bottom.

[...]

Rules aren’t given as chains for our thoughts, simply to catapult/kick start that which we do. Once we learn them, it should be expected that they will help free the mind. If we can’t free ourselves from the chains, we’ve but followed.

[...]

The greatest of skills is the use of the mind, obstacle free. Physical skill is but a social status that feeds a façade that doesn’t realize it’s yet to build a foundation.



And you must realize what is really important :

Mode =Matrix= ON

There is no Spoon

Mode =Matrix= Off

[HF]

Part of the problem is:

- The clave does not show the difference even if many people say so.
- The tumbao most times does not show the difference even many people say so.
- The beginning of the phrase is not reliable.

The only thing that is dead on is the harmonic structure of the piece. We are lucky here since the harmony in salsa is following relatively simple lines, so you can easily tell where you are once you can spot the harmonic center.

But the salsa teachers are rare that have a clue on what harmony is, and I never noticed an attempt to explain this to non-musicians. But I think that most people that can easily spot the 1 unconciously listen to the harmony without knowing a name for it.

The second best is to get a feeling about the question-answer or call-response structure.


Hannes

[Ron Obvious]

You have it exactly on the button, SalsAlx. In Brendan's link, this is what the author calls "New York Style" clave change. Until reading that article I had thought it an almost sacred rule about clave, but it seems Cubans are not so uptight about it as New Yorkers, and "Clave License" (where it really does change) is also possible. The citation for that is Rebeca Mauleon, who is a San Franciscan, very friendly with Changuito of Los Van Van, who plays by his own rules anyway...

As a gringo, I would not dare arrange a piece where the clave actually changed because the enraged voices claiming I did not know what I was doing would easily drown out the 3 people saying "actually, that's completely fine in Cuba!"

The other part of the problem is that we're dealing with music. You can't make such rules that stipulate that "clave never changes", or something similar, because music is made by musicians, and they do whatever they wish.

Certainly, it wouldn't be difficult to compose a piece of music where the clave goes 3-2-2-3 (what the above mentioned author calls Clave Licence change). Because of this possibility, one cannot say that the clave itself never changes, because it may.

[sweavo]

The other part of the problem is that we're dealing with music. You can't make such rules that stipulate that "clave never changes", or something similar, because music is made by musicians, and they do whatever they wish.

When playing percussion in an ensemble you need rules, and this is a pretty good one. I don't think I own a single track where the "clave license" style change happens. I'll have to listen to my more cuban tracks and listen out for it. I have the impression it only really happened after songo and into cuban pop, rather than in what we would recognize as son based.

[kayak]

I have been watching this thread for a while. Interesting stuff. However, I am confused on why it matters?

a) I learned most of my salsa breaking forward on 1.
b) Then I took a shorter class with a different instructor that taught breaking forward on 2.
c) Now, a different instructor is teaching small step back with left foot on 1 then break back on 2.

So aren't b and c automatically opposit of each other? Couple b is breaking forward on 2 and couple c is breaking back on 2. Yet, within my ability to judge good dancing, both couples appear to be very good.

[tangotime]

The l. foot back followed by r. foot ( a/ m--step side l and back right ) Is the way that mambo was introduced to beginners in the chain schools and called the mambo box. Most teachers, however, would break forward on the " 2 ". with no prep step, when going out to clubs . Many p.r. start side r and break forward left.--- and the list goes on !

This directional starting , is all tied in with the " call and response " theory . Bottom line-- do what makes you comfortable, the majority of " dancers ", cant find a beat in a bucket .

[kayak]

But isn't the whole theme of this thread that it makes a big difference whether you break forward or backward on measure one?

[devane]

But isn't the whole theme of this thread that it makes a big difference whether you break forward or backward on measure one?
Nah, it was nothing to do with different styles, ways of doing a basic.

It was about when someone dances 4 beats out of sync, starting in the middle of a bar instead on the beginning.
The title says it all. Some people, even relatively advanced dancers, will dance 123-567- as 567-123-!!!


If you have learned to start on the 1 it will feel a bit weird cos' when you hear the start of a bar you will be on the wrong foot and can feel uncomfortable as being out of time completely.
Also changes in the song may throw you off too as it will change on the 1 but you're 4 beats out.
This is somethings referred to "dancing on the wrong side".
This has nothing to do with On2, Power 2 etc....they can dance 4 beats out of sync too!:cool:

[devane]

Bottom line-- do what makes you comfortable, the majority of " dancers ", cant find a beat in a bucket .

I spend a lot of time watching others dancers. Watching for things to "borrow" in terms of styling. There is this one guy from Brazil who is considered one of the best dancers. I noticed that whatever beat he dances on it's completely random, or should I say the music is ignored completely.

Anyway I asked a few of the girls about this and some said he danced well but some said it feels horrible dancing with him because he keeps changing what beat to dance on. I have still stolen a few styling elements from him.


I have asked this question to the girls before and they say they just follow whatever speed the guy is doing. Some are completely unaware that the music dictates this, both guys and girls, both beginners and eh....advanced.
But it's rarely taught anyway so what can you expect.
We are taught On1 but if I watched 20 couples dancing I'd expect 1 or maybe 2 couples doing that.

I don't mean to dictate but dancing on time (whatever your style On1, On2) isn't a advanced concept, it's a basic concept.
There are plenty of discussions about this on this forum but I never hear a thing about such things in a salsa school.


Why are students allowed to advance without fundamentals.

[Peaches]

There is this one guy from Brazil who is considered one of the best dancers. I noticed that whatever beat he dances on it's completely random, or should I say the music is ignored completely.


I was asking my AT teacher, recently become my standard teacher, about counting in AT one time and I got a very interesting answer which your post reminded me of.

My teacher is Brazilian, and started off as a samba dancer. He was saying that there's often a cultural element at work with South American dancers, in that the focus for them is to focus on the lyrics and melody, as opposed to the beat. This, understandably, can create a lot of lyricism in their dancing, but can also interfere when you're dealing with more beat-oriented music.

He was saying that a lot of South American ballroom (or salsa, etc.) dancers will often look slightly "off" because to them it's a matter of counting and steps/patterns, without a lot of connection to the beat. Because, to them, the beat has always been way secondary to the melody in terms of importance. So, they don't fully "get" the connection of the steps to the beat.

Interesting, I though. Disclaimer here: I have no idea how true this is. I don't mean this as a commentary on South American dancers. I'm just passing along what was said to me by a native South American.

[alemana]

money, of course.

[noobster]

He was saying that a lot of South American ballroom (or salsa, etc.) dancers will often look slightly "off" because to them it's a matter of counting and steps/patterns, without a lot of connection to the beat. Because, to them, the beat has always been way secondary to the melody in terms of importance. So, they don't fully "get" the connection of the steps to the beat.Interesting. I have noticed that I tend to get off-beat when I listen too much to the lyrics. And I think it is true that the 'count' in the melody does not adhere completely to the beat-count. The percussion count is totally regular, whereas the count that I get from the melody line seems to weave in and out, with slight syncopation, though still staying close to the percussion.

I've seen a bunch of threads about lyrics on this site, and it didn't seem like for most people they were very integral to their enjoyment of the song. I've always been a very verbally oriented individual though, and lyrics (if they are in a language I understand) are a crucial part of the song for me. They can make it or break it (bad lyrics can really kill a catchy beat; conversely, great ones will make forgettable music wonderful).

The worst thing I can do for my dancing is sing along. It's terrible because my worst dances end up being to my favorite, favorite songs, the ones I can't help belting out.

[kayak]

This is somethings referred to "dancing on the wrong side". This has nothing to do with On2, Power 2 etc....they can dance 4 beats out of sync too!:cool:

Thanks, I will experiement a bit and see if I can sense it messing me up? I am a lot better at chacha than salsa. So, if I start hold-break forward 2-3 or start left-break back 2-3, I end up exactly 4 beats opposit of the other right? I start both ways and decide usually by how crowded the dance floor is. If I have lots of space, I might as well use the space and tend to start with a side basic and lead more paseo type steps. If it is really crowded, I condense things and do lots more slot/cbl kinds of steps. I think I still have about the same amount of fun either way.

At a dance last weekend, the DJ loved Santana and played the same song twice times during the evening. Maybe I should try it one way each and see what I do different?

[Catarina]

We are taught On1 but if I watched 20 couples dancing I'd expect 1 or maybe 2 couples doing that.

I don't mean to dictate but dancing on time (whatever your style On1, On2) isn't a advanced concept, it's a basic concept.
There are plenty of discussions about this on this forum but I never hear a thing about such things in a salsa school.


Why are students allowed to advance without fundamentals.

The place I take lessons from started out pretty soundly teaching about starting "correctly" on the 1 in the music--learning to hear the 1, and stepping in the appropriate place---forward, back, or in place depending on which style you're dancing. in talking with a guy I know on Saturday, he poined out a dancer we both know and how the guy she was dancing with was dancing 5-6-7, 1-2-3, and that you could see on her face the question of whether he heard the shift in the music/clave change...he pointed out that where we take lessons teaches clearly about hearing that in the music, but as devane mentioned, not everyone teaches this, so it's unpredictable whether the person you are dancing with will adjust or even start the dance correctly.

as a follow who hears the 1, it bugs me, and I am left wondering if the lead hears it or not, particularly when the count changes...I probably get that same question face at that point in the dance, but I still keep dancing and remember, quick, quick, slow, rather than 123, 567 since I do tend to step out of spins or combinations in time with the music, not with the lead when we're dancing on the wrong side of the music (i like that phrase!)

having just written that, devane, was your post more about keeping tempo that stepping correctly on the count in the music?

[Josh]

I don't mean to dictate but dancing on time (whatever your style On1, On2) isn't a advanced concept, it's a basic concept.
There are plenty of discussions about this on this forum but I never hear a thing about such things in a salsa school.

Why are students allowed to advance without fundamentals.

You're exactly right devane, it's a basic concept. Unfortunately far too many people after dancing only a short period of time consider themselves anything but beginners... :(

As to schools teaching it.. I heavily emphasize this when I teach classes. Again, the problem is that it's really difficult to teach timing and dancing on time. How do you do it? There's the music with counting in the background, which seems to help... but take away the counting and add a 'real' song, and some get just as lost. There's explaining instruments, but this technical approach confuses most who are still very very wet behind the ears. So many wind up not able to hear the music well...

And this is the answer to your question about why students are allowed to advance without good timing. Despite a teacher's best efforts, many will still not be able to dance on time. So do you hold back half the class because they can't dance on time? Is there something about repeating a level that will cause them to automatically "get it" the second or third time around? Even drilling timing in a class over and over and over will get frustrating to those who don't get it still, and boring to those who already get it. It should be a fundamental that's emphasized, but unfortunately it's lacking. And you must realize that just like styling or body movement comes with time for most, so does timing for some (while others get it immediately). So holding someone back from learning may only serve to frustrate them, causing them to stop, whereas they would have learned given more time. As I have said before, if anyone discovers the silver bullet of teaching timing, I would pay good money to know the secret...

[squirrel]

@devane:

Technique is good and should be taught from the very first lesson. And then maybe 1/4 of the people dancing now would still be interested to do it. :)

When teaching for social dancing purposes, one should consider what the ultimate goal of the students is: to learn how to move a bit and meet others or become world's champions?

Musicality is important (to me it is the most important thing) but people want to move their bodies and be able to lead 1-2 moves, w/o caring too much about the beat or the technique.

I tried teaching simple musical terms and have them identify some instruments. They were bored! :( I tried to explain about the 1 and the 5 and... not too much interest! :(

Same happened when I taught basic techniques (and not in an absolute beginner class - in a class whose students had been dancing for over 6 months already and were fairly good).

[borikensalsero]

The place I take lessons from started out pretty soundly teaching about starting "correctly" on the 1 in the music--learning to hear the 1, and stepping in the appropriate place---forward, back, or in place depending on which style you're dancing. in talking with a guy I know on Saturday, he poined out a dancer we both know and how the guy she was dancing with was dancing 5-6-7, 1-2-3, and that you could see on her face the question of whether he heard the shift in the music/clave change...he pointed out that where we take lessons teaches clearly about hearing that in the music, but as devane mentioned, not everyone teaches this, so it's unpredictable whether the person you are dancing with will adjust or even start the dance correctly.

as a follow who hears the 1, it bugs me, and I am left wondering if the lead hears it or not, particularly when the count changes...I probably get that same question face at that point in the dance, but I still keep dancing and remember, quick, quick, slow, rather than 123, 567 since I do tend to step out of spins or combinations in time with the music, not with the lead when we're dancing on the wrong side of the music (i like that phrase!)

having just written that, devane, was your post more about keeping tempo that stepping correctly on the count in the music?


Don't let yourself get caught up in the right and wrong. To the music it doesn't matter a lick what side we choose to dance. To fun itself it should never matter what in the wrold and when you are doing it, doing so only limits what yourself.

while you hear a top layer change, the clave hasn't changed. To a person dancing directional on the 2 side of the clave, you are the one not listening to the music, you have made a change when the foundation never has. What gives? Not the music, but us, all dancers should be able to do as they please either fowards or backwards, especially in a "monotone" style dance...

[Catarina]

Don't let yourself get caught up in the right and wrong. To the music it doesn't matter a lick what side we choose to dance. To fun itself it should never matter what in the wrold and when you are doing it, doing so only limits what yourself.

while you hear a top layer change, the clave hasn't changed. To a person dancing directional on the 2 side of the clave, you are the one not listening to the music, you have made a change when the foundation never has. What gives? Not the music, but us, all dancers should be able to do as they please either fowards or backwards, especially in a "monotone" style dance...


After reading the other threads about how the "clave change" is superficial--the melody (or whichever musical term was used--i don't know it) rearranges around the clave which doesn't change, I completely agree with what you're saying boriken, and I am aspiring to get to that point when I dance. however, i'm still in month seven of dancing--no prior dancing background unless you count a year or two of ballet as a five year old. so for me, and maybe other relative newbies to dancing/musicality, etc, i need to keep in mind the structure of the music when I'm dancing otherwise i'd end up standing there confused a lot of the time. also, i know that the place i take lessons from teaches the basics fairly technically, and then builds from there. i wouldn't say rigidly, but still, more of a common foundation for the dance that once you've got that and a feel for the music, you can flow with it however you please. ...it's like having a good grasp of a language before you start writing poetry.
so isn't there something to be said for respecting the basic step's relationship to the music? do other partner dances have this kind of discussion about "correct" placement of feet/dancing on the wrong side?

[tangotime]

Very good q.-- Actually, a lot of the same rules apply. As one climbs up the proverbial ladder, it is expected of you ( the leader ) to interpret the musicality of the piece and to dance rhythmically to the music . It is, however , far more technical than you can imagine, and takes yrs of study to reach prof. levels -- or even amat.
All movements are broken down to the nth degree .The major difference in the salsa world and the b/room world, is the number of dances involved ( well over thirty )

[devane]

I was asking my AT teacher, recently become my standard teacher, about counting in AT one time and I got a very interesting answer which your post reminded me of.

My teacher is Brazilian, and started off as a samba dancer. He was saying that there's often a cultural element at work with South American dancers, in that the focus for them is to focus on the lyrics and melody, as opposed to the beat. This, understandably, can create a lot of lyricism in their dancing, but can also interfere when you're dealing with more beat-oriented music.

He was saying that a lot of South American ballroom (or salsa, etc.) dancers will often look slightly "off" because to them it's a matter of counting and steps/patterns, without a lot of connection to the beat. Because, to them, the beat has always been way secondary to the melody in terms of importance. So, they don't fully "get" the connection of the steps to the beat.

Interesting, I though. Disclaimer here: I have no idea how true this is. I don't mean this as a commentary on South American dancers. I'm just passing along what was said to me by a native South American.

Interesting story......but can you see how people dancing different ways can cause problems. What if both partners are following the lyrics/melody but both coming up with different interpretations?
Fine for solo dancing but a partner dance needs some common ground or it's not a partner dance.

ps
AT doesn't follow a beat so you have to learn to interpret melodies (you need to learn the songs). It's way harder than Salsa and that's why I liked it cos' it was really challenging.
I was learning AT from a guy from Buenos Aires. He teaches from the botttom up. Meaning Musicality, exercises for posture and leading..........loads of things before you learn a pattern. No diluting of Tango standards here. Lots of sore shoulders and I was mentally drained for a while.;)


Thanks, I will experiement a bit and see if I can sense it messing me up? I am a lot better at chacha than salsa. So, if I start hold-break forward 2-3 or start left-break back 2-3, I end up exactly 4 beats opposit of the other right? I start both ways and decide usually by how crowded the dance floor is. If I have lots of space, I might as well use the space and tend to start with a side basic and lead more paseo type steps. If it is really crowded, I condense things and do lots more slot/cbl kinds of steps. I think I still have about the same amount of fun either way.

At a dance last weekend, the DJ loved Santana and played the same song twice times during the evening. Maybe I should try it one way each and see what I do different?

You dance On2? I'm On1 but it shouldn't make a difference.
As you know the speed of the bar dictates the speed of which you dance.
I don't constantly listen attentively to the music to know if I'm on time. I will listen to a bar or 2 at the beginning. From time to time I will hear something in the music change like the chorus starting. If I'm on my left foot (1) , I'm ok. It's like a acknowledgement, I'm starting at the beginning of a bar when the musicians are also doing the same.

If you're dancing half a bar out of sync you won't hear things when expected and you may feel uncomfortable. It can feel as bad as not dancing on time at all and when it happens to me, I'm likely to make a mistake as I'm on the wrong foot. It justs feels wrong.

Just listen to changes in the music and take notice what foot you're on.

Another point.....
If you're a girl you'll probably more versatile anyway because a lot of girls have danced both as the guy and girl. Starting a bar on either foot makes no difference.


not everyone teaches this, so it's unpredictable whether the person you are dancing with will adjust or even start the dance correctly.

Yeah you could get kicked in your shins if you don't anticipate when to start.
Luckily I'm the guy so I don't have that problem.I have found that some girls just follow whatever the guy is doing and don't know a thing about On1/On2.


devane, was your post more about keeping tempo that stepping correctly on the count in the music?
Dancing half a bar out feels the same as being off time.





Josh
Major props for teaching musically in your classes. People have different aptitudes to music (look at American Idol).
Some people will get it after a simple explanation even with the fact that the music may be new to them. Some will never get it. Some see salsa class solely as a social outlet and will perceive any technical advice as irrelevent and boring.
But for the ones who want to learn the art,the information is there.
And yes there are worst things a dancer could have in an advanced class. I've had girls who bunny hop their basics and fall all over the place but want to do complex sequences! (and are let in the class)
Even ones who don't realise they have half a bar to do 2 spins (5,6,7..). I will ask "should we do 1 spin instead?" She will say "no" and go at her own speed finishing whenever.
I would rather do a simplied version well that might actually be added to the dance floor than a poorly executed wobbly piece of crap.
Not understanding the basics of timing is the reason why they always go for the fancier option.Maybe it's not their fault if they haven't been made aware of it.




I tried teaching simple musical terms and have them identify some instruments. They were bored! :( I tried to explain about the 1 and the 5 and... not too much interest! :(



:(
As you said. "Social dancing". Don't expect too many people to care.
The fact that you teach it is important. They can't blame you if someone says "this guy doesn't dance with the rhythm"
I would add if learning about the Clave. Anyone I've shown how the do the clave rhythm can do it easily. Doing it for a whole song is hard . You have to go into a trance. But that's actively doing the rhythm as opposed to standing in a class listening and then say "I get it, yeah, yeah....show us a new sequence now".


Don't let yourself get caught up in the right and wrong. To the music it doesn't matter a lick what side we choose to dance. To fun itself it should never matter what in the wrold and when you are doing it, doing so only limits what yourself.


You need to follow/understand the convention of your style before you experiment with other things. You can break the rules when doing the basics ( I do), shines etc........but what if your way interferes with your partner.
It feels horrible for me to dance half a bar out. If I learnt to dance On5 maybe my partner On1 will feel the same problems I felt before. I don't see the point of learning to dance on every beat if the person I'm dancing with is accustomed to dancing On1.

I gonna learn this On2 sometime but that's all for me I'm afraid.

[devane]

Very good q.-- Actually, a lot of the same rules apply. As one climbs up the proverbial ladder, it is expected of you ( the leader ) to interpret the musicality of the piece and to dance rhythmically to the music . It is, however , far more technical than you can imagine, and takes yrs of study to reach prof. levels -- or even amat.
All movements are broken down to the nth degree .The major difference in the salsa world and the b/room world, is the number of dances involved ( well over thirty )

30 different dances. You would need to be the dance equivalent of a Shaolin Monk.:cool:
I heard of "Salsa University" but a dance temple?
Nunca se sabe ;)

[noobster]

Interesting story......but can you see how people dancing different ways can cause problems. What if both partners are following the lyrics/melody but both coming up with different interpretations?That is why we have a leader and a follower. The follower may interpret however she likes, but only insofar as she doesn't interfere with the lead.

It feels horrible for me to dance half a bar out.I felt like this as well until recently. See my post on the first page of this thread, about a month ago. But after reading the opinions of borikensalsero and some others, I thought, well, why does it feel bad to dance half a bar out? I'm still stepping on all the same beats, it's just a mirror reversal (left foot instead of right, moving back instead of forward). Actually a woman dancing half a bar out is just dancing the guy's footwork. The choice of which measure to step forward on is completely arbitrary (not like actually dancing off time, as in paying no attention to the beat or melody at all).

So I tossed the mindset. I decided, well, if the guy is half a bar out, that is fine and I am just going to follow. It's been very freeing and allowed me to have more fun instead of having this little irritation in the back of my mind. As well as that I can concentrate on more important things than which foot I happen to be on.

Yes, this is a partner dance. That means both partners should contribute to making the dance as good as it can be. Not that one of them should be grumpy and allow arbitrary rules to interfere with his or her enjoyment of the dance.

Anyway, I can see how this would be harder for guys. But they are the ones who control the timing, so if they care about dancing on-measure they will; and if they don't know the 1 from the 5, it won't bother them as long as the girl is willing to follow.

[tangotime]

Then I guess I am-- i personally teach 31 ( many many teachers who do same ) Simply-- -- 10 in Intern div,-- 13 in amer.standard plus sundry others like balboa, peabody, latin hustle etc etc. Not uncommon with ballroom teachers of long standing

[Peaches]

Interesting story......but can you see how people dancing different ways can cause problems. What if both partners are following the lyrics/melody but both coming up with different interpretations?
Fine for solo dancing but a partner dance needs some common ground or it's not a partner dance.
Um, no. The leader leads, and has (arguably) the majority of the responsibility for musical interpretation. The follower is free to interpret the music and melody, but only within the framework established by the leader. I know primarily about AT (where the boundaries of the framework can be pushed by experienced follows), but I'd imagine the same to be true of other partner dances. Leading is still leading, and following is still following.

Also, he'd said that South American trained dancers will often end up responding in similar ways to the same melody, even though they're each interpreting on their own. Interesting, and again, I'm not trying to make blanket ethnic statements.


ps
AT doesn't follow a beat so you have to learn to interpret melodies (you need to learn the songs). It's way harder than Salsa and that's why I liked it cos' it was really challenging.
I was learning AT from a guy from Buenos Aires. He teaches from the botttom up. Meaning Musicality, exercises for posture and leading..........loads of things before you learn a pattern. No diluting of Tango standards here. Lots of sore shoulders and I was mentally drained for a while.;)
I'm well aware of AT. It is, by far, my favorite dance and the one I'm probably the most comfortable with.

Whether or not it follows a beat can be debated. Straight tango doesn't really, but it's not always the melody that gets followed (rhythmic elements can be followed as well). However, vals and milonga are much more beat-oriented. And, I'd argue that you don't necessarily need to learn the songs, but instead need to learn how to listen to the music. Even without knowing a particular song, you can often get a pretty good idea of where it's headed if you know what to listen for.

Not sure why your shoulders were sore, that just doesn't make sense to me. Feet, of course; back, possibly. But shoulders?

[kayak]

Very good q.-- Actually, a lot of the same rules apply. As one climbs up the proverbial ladder, it is expected of you ( the leader ) to interpret the musicality of the piece and to dance rhythmically to the music . It is, however , far more technical than you can imagine, and takes yrs of study to reach prof. levels -- or even amat.
All movements are broken down to the nth degree .The major difference in the salsa world and the b/room world, is the number of dances involved ( well over thirty )

I figured the same rules would apply and my ear for other types of music is better. That is what got me thinking about chacha. I never had the time or reason to study music in the past. So I am proof that the "You can not teach rythm" thread is bunk. Now, I can listen to music and hear some of the different elements. Add in a reasonable base of fun things to lead and I have a whole new world to explore :)

[kayak]

You dance On2? I'm On1 but it shouldn't make a difference.

If you're dancing half a bar out of sync you won't hear things when expected and you may feel uncomfortable. It can feel as bad as not dancing on time at all and when it happens to me, I'm likely to make a mistake as I'm on the wrong foot. It justs feels wrong.

I gonna learn this On2 sometime but that's all for me I'm afraid.

Actually, I'm much better starting on the one. I just couldn't think of a way to describe starting with a back basic. I had an immediate example of two different "correct" teaching styles in the On2 and Chacha that put the couple 4 beats apart depending upon if they start breaking forward or backward.

Breaking forward on 2 or 6 seems like it should be identical musical/dance differences to breaking forward on 1 or 5? At this point, I don't think that my leading is advanced enough that I lead anything different regardless of which count I break forward on. However, I have lots of space for learning.

[borikensalsero]

You need to follow/understand the convention of your style before you experiment with other things. You can break the rules when doing the basics ( I do), shines etc........but what if your way interferes with your partner.
It feels horrible for me to dance half a bar out. If I learnt to dance On5 maybe my partner On1 will feel the same problems I felt before. I don't see the point of learning to dance on every beat if the person I'm dancing with is accustomed to dancing On1.

I gonna learn this On2 sometime but that's all for me I'm afraid.

Yes and no, This really isn't a technical, rather a philosophical issue. What, why and how it feels wrong is not because of technique, but because of how we think we should dance. If we shift our philosophical outlook, then someone else’s style will never matter. We are no longer concern about ingrained ideas, rather communicating to the best of our abilities. Of course, if I want to force my ideas upon someone who believes different there will be problems, but convention isn't what I'm after, rather communication. This is the prevalent issue with dancers, they want to force everyone to dance likewise, causing a mess of the dance. As a dancer I should only adhere to convention when convention is shared by both individuals.

I tend to equal this dancing thing to love. If someone was to tell me that they can't fall in love with someone because of language difference, then I'd tell them they've never been in love.

Dancing is about communication, adhering to convention as a must creates difficulties, it is not technique that causes it, but how we choose to apply that technique. Finding a way to communicate is what matters on the social floor, whether she dances cuban and I NY Style. It is our responsibility to communicate and create a meaningful dance. It is not forcing her style on me and mine on her. That is not a technical problem, but a personal inability to adjust to outside stimuli. Basically, philosophy... Just like loving someone who doesn't speak your language, you sure as heck will find a way to let the person know your love and devotion without words... But if you just want to talk to her and make her understand you by the mere words, then you’ll have the bumps you speak of in convention. Even if there are bumps, what ultimately matters is to communicate, that can only be done by tossing convention to the side when a must and adjusting. That’s the technique we are after, learning to adjust to one another, not force one another adjust to us. If you want to fall in love with someone of the same language, then by all means do that, then practice convention at that time because the situation calls for it.

[devane]

I haven't got time to agree, disagree or agree to disagree at the moment. I'm running out the door. I'll get back to you.

ps
Salia con una Española (de Galicia). Me dijo "en mi cama hablamos Castellano o Gallego". Apende rápido.:cool:
I know people can translate this. It just works better in Spanish.

[borikensalsero]

so isn't there something to be said for respecting the basic step's relationship to the music? do other partner dances have this kind of discussion about "correct" placement of feet/dancing on the wrong side?


Different issues are at work...

the music itself doesn't care how nor where your are stepping. what matters at this point is why you are dancing. It really all depends on our reasons for doing so. Then and only then can meaning be created for this question. To me, I could particularly careless where, when and why I step, though I understand that a mambo community has its rules, so I obey the very basics of them, unless it is a fundamental philosophical difference.

How you want to dance and the rules you want to place are all up to you. Want to change on the 1, then by all means do so.

To me, the 2 side of the clave still feels like the 2 side of the clave no matter how many times the top layers change. Body positioning has absolutely nothing to do with how I feel the clave. It feels exaclty the same to me whether I step forward to the 2 side as it does to step backwards on it.
A palindrome is a palindrome no matter body possition when reading it. That's how I view the basic in relation to the clave. There is a 2 side and a 3 side, no matter if I'm standing on my head, the 2 side will always feel like the two side and the 3 side will feel like the 3 side to any part of my basic. All the arguments of phrases, begining, end, "clave change", etc, are all details that don't particualrly have anything to do with how much I enjoy a song and dance.

[dosvueltas]

I can't really say how to differentiate between the 1 and 5, but somehow, you just know it. And the fact that you know that transition has occurred is what perhaps makes it irritating. For people who couldn't tell the difference, they'd probably continue blissfully, and hopefully still on time, although 1 has switched to 5.

Surely though, sometimes it must be obvious? What about that salsa romantica song No Me Ames? It's so obvious it's jarring and uncomfortable.

But what takes the cake must surely be one horrible cut I've heard of Celia's La Vida Es Un Carnaval. There is a point in the song where the count goes 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 1, 2...! Anyone hear knows that horrible version I mean?

[Josh]

I can't really say how to differentiate between the 1 and 5, but somehow, you just know it. And the fact that you know that transition has occurred is what perhaps makes it irritating. For people who couldn't tell the difference, they'd probably continue blissfully, and hopefully still on time, although 1 has switched to 5.

And therein lies the challenge of teaching the difference. But it's already been posted technically what makes the difference. It's so nice when you just hear it though... then you just dance, and you don't have to think about timing, just like you don't think about breathing..

[fallenangel]

Sum it up, just get your timing right.
Especialy the leaders, when they want to lead complex moves make sure your timing is correct.
A slight hesitate or late on the lead the lady will go off, although she can cover it up, that gives u something to think about after the dance.

[pianoman]

The last I've found to be the most successful. When I was just beginning and I asked teachers how to find the one they would tell me to just listen to the music. I'll hear it after a couple of months of listening. Pfft... Months?? Luckily I figured out an answer for MY students. Though it's still hard to hear at first, I'll tell you something you can try to listen for. Really what my teachers were saying was "there IS a subtle difference between the first bar and the second bar." That difference is what some call "call & response". Though typically call & response refers to one musician calling and another musician (or the audience) responding, it's useful in salsa to think of one bar calling, and the other bar responding. The first bar (1-2-3-4) calls, and the second bar (5-6-7-8) responds.

Since the 8 count is broken up into 2 individual bars, it's a lot like the 2 halves of a sentence. If you just say the first half of the sentence... "my dog spot" It feels unfinished. You might want to hear more about my dog spot. What about my dog spot? Then you hear the rest of the sentence, "likes to catch." Now you have a complete idea about my dog spot: My dog spot... likes to catch. Now if you just walked into the door and all you heard was "likes to catch," Then you might want to know WHO likes to catch. And if you pay attention maybe you will hear the speaker repeat it. In salsa, he (the music) WILL repeat it. OH! My dog spot likes to catch!

So converting this analogy to salsa, the melody of the first bar will feel unfinished until you hear the melody of the second bar. Think of the difference in punctuation. There is either a comma or a period. In other words, listen for a comma or a period. If you hear a comma, then the next beat will be the 5. If you hear a period, then the next beat will be the 1.

There's some more info on this on wikipedia.




YES!! You've got it! I came out of lurking just to say thanks for articulating what I've been trying to explain for ages. As a musician it just comes to me but you've finally explained the basis of my intuition. Thanks!

I've found that a slightly easier application that works most of the time is that over the 4-5 the singer is usually in the middle of his phrase and over 8-1 (s)he's resting. I know it's not *always* the case but 95% of songs played at a social salsa scene will be one where that has 8 beat lyrical phrases starting on 1 and ending on 8

[salsamarty]

There is definately a difference between the 1 and the 5. It takes practice and close listening to the music but once you get it it's almost impossible not to find it easily.

By far the most popular style for the leader to dance on 1 is to step forward with the left foot on 1. I'm currently taking a class to learn patterns on both 1 and 2. The teacher is however teaches on 1 both by going forward on either 1 or 5. On 2 you start back on your right foot and then break on the 2 with your left foot . . . unless you are doing classic mambo and you start forward with your left foot on 2. The point is that salsa styles are pretty fluid but it is very important to know, find, and follow the beat.

Following the clave can be tricky because there is both forward and reverse clave and they can switch in the middle of a song. The clave percussion isn't always present. However, the downbeat on 1 is always there loud and clear.

[GTO Bruin]

On 2 you start back on your right foot and then break on the 2 with your left foot . . . unless you are doing classic mambo and you start forward with your left foot on 2.

On2 (ET2) as a leader, you start back on your left, then break backward on the 2 with your right. Some folks On2 (not ET2) will start forward on right then break forward on the 2.

Sometimes I wonder if the latter would be easier for someone who is used to dancing On1 to transition to On2 since one would be breaking in the same direction of the salsa measure, just a beat behind. Then again, it would change the left-right-left on 1,2,3 to right-left-right. I can see the trade-off.

[englezul]

On2 (ET2) as a leader, you start back on your left, then break backward on the 2 with your right. Some folks On2 (not ET2) will start forward on right then break forward on the 2.

Sometimes I wonder if the latter would be easier for someone who is used to dancing On1 to transition to On2 since one would be breaking in the same direction of the salsa measure, just a beat behind. Then again, it would change the left-right-left on 1,2,3 to right-left-right. I can see the trade-off.

I thought in ET2 the leader starts forward with the right foot on 5. Meh, technicallities.

[GTO Bruin]

I thought in ET2 the leader starts forward with the right foot on 5. Meh, technicallities.

Yes, during the dance, the leader is stepping forward on 5 with the right, then further forward to break on 6 with the left. For the next measure, he is back on 1 with the left, then further back on 2 with the right.

I was just trying to contast with salsamarty's post.

[marie]

Ok, I may have a very basic question here. Why shouldn't a follower be able to follow even if the dude is dancing the 1 step on the 5 beat?

I have mostly danced other dances, so I am by no means a salsa expert. I do know that I don't only dance with the music - I dance with my leader. That's to say, I am going to follow what my leader leads. If he starts on 1, I'll start on 1...if he starts on 2, I'll start on 2, if he starts on 5, I'll start on 5. Usually I can feel exactly where my leader wants me to be regardless of the time. You can bet that I'm still not going to let the leader make me look bad, but then again I am responsible for making myself look good. Actually, I think this is part of the art of following because while I say that I try to always follow whatever he leads, I also stay in control of myself. If I had a goal, it would be to make any dance look or feel good. That means that I hope someday I can have a dance with a struggling leader and still make the dance look beautiful. I can't imagine this is possible without being flexible enough to enjoy a dance even if it feels a little off with the time.

In the Westie world we sometimes hear this questions: Ladies - when do you start? Most answer "one" but the actual answer is "when he leads you." I have actually had guys ask me if I dance on the 1 or the 2 and I answer with the same thing "I dance when you lead me." I don't know if this is a reasonable answer, but I don't feel like I have problems in this area.

[tangotime]

Well stated !!-- and the reality is, most cannot tell the difference , nor do they seem to care .

[salsaForfun]

I have actually had guys ask me if I dance on the 1 or the 2 and I answer with the same thing "I dance when you lead me." I don't know if this is a reasonable answer, but I don't feel like I have problems in this area.


With exactly this answer i came across three kinds of ladies: they can can dance on both beats, thy don't know what it is about, or they want to give it a try on 1 or on 2. So this answer didn't help much. And further i noticed that some ladies don't like this question you know. That why i rarely ask this question any more. I would most of time start on 2 and see. You would make life easier with more precise answer with answer like "i prefer on 1 (or on 2)", "i can dance both", "i want to give it a try on 2 (or on 1)".

[englezul]

Ok, I may have a very basic question here. Why shouldn't a follower be able to follow even if the dude is dancing the 1 step on the 5 beat?

I have mostly danced other dances, so I am by no means a salsa expert. I do know that I don't only dance with the music - I dance with my leader. That's to say, I am going to follow what my leader leads. If he starts on 1, I'll start on 1...if he starts on 2, I'll start on 2, if he starts on 5, I'll start on 5. Usually I can feel exactly where my leader wants me to be regardless of the time. You can bet that I'm still not going to let the leader make me look bad, but then again I am responsible for making myself look good. Actually, I think this is part of the art of following because while I say that I try to always follow whatever he leads, I also stay in control of myself. If I had a goal, it would be to make any dance look or feel good. That means that I hope someday I can have a dance with a struggling leader and still make the dance look beautiful. I can't imagine this is possible without being flexible enough to enjoy a dance even if it feels a little off with the time.

In the Westie world we sometimes hear this questions: Ladies - when do you start? Most answer "one" but the actual answer is "when he leads you." I have actually had guys ask me if I dance on the 1 or the 2 and I answer with the same thing "I dance when you lead me." I don't know if this is a reasonable answer, but I don't feel like I have problems in this area.


That's wishful thinking. Should a follower be able to follow whenever? The IDEAL follower yes. But any follower? No. In reality even a very advanced and experienced on1 follower cannot follow on2 in a competent fashion because the whole feeling of it changes and the body has to be accustomed to it. Without practice, on1 muscle memory will kick in and have its way. So will they be able to follow for a while? Maybe, but when it gets more challenging it will stop to make sense.

[marie]

I'm sure you are right about that. I am just saying that this dance is a partnership and I think the follower will contribute to a more pleasant dance if she is able to work with the timing being off once in awhile. My philosophy is that there are no judges out their social dancing except the couple's own sense of enjoying the song. Therefore, I want to be able to make those "off" dances (we all have 'em) work as well as possible.

To me, the most skilled leaders are the ones who know their technique, feel the music, etc. but above all the most important skill in social dancing is making the follower feel and look good so that the dance looks good as a whole. I imagine this is not an easy thing to do. shouldn't the follower return the favor? At a personal level, it helps me to enjoy those "off" dances if I am thinking to myself - How am I going to enjoy this? How am I going to make this feel beautiful? Can I make him feel like this was a fun dance even if we aren't clicking?

[GTO Bruin]

With exactly this answer i came across three kinds of ladies: they can can dance on both beats, thy don't know what it is about, or they want to give it a try on 1 or on 2. So this answer didn't help much. And further i noticed that some ladies don't like this question you know. That why i rarely ask this question any more. I would most of time start on 2 and see. You would make life easier with more precise answer with answer like "i prefer on 1 (or on 2)", "i can dance both", "i want to give it a try on 2 (or on 1)".

But there's a difference dancing On2 and dancing on 2 (ie. starting on 2 but same footwork.)

[kayak]

Marie, your description makes sense to me. I have fun dancing with ladies when there isn't even any music and they follow great. So how would we even know if we were on the 1?

I like learning. So I can find the 1/5 or 2/6 pretty well. I just have not figured out why my dance is any less fun breaking forward or backward yet? It will probably hit me one of these days :)

[LatinDancer006]

Ok, I may have a very basic question here. Why shouldn't a follower be able to follow even if the dude is dancing the 1 step on the 5 beat?

I think the issue goes beyond the basic elements of leading and following. It's a matter of musicality, phrasing, and expression. I haven't been dancing long, so I'ven't acquired this pet-peeve. So, it's kinda hard to explain. I'll defer to the more experienced for that. However, dancing on the second beat, 3rd or 4th is not as easy as ... (i don't know)...switching from Sprite to Sierra mist.:confused: Because you associate certain step with certain beat. You should read the thread about dancing to the clave and dancing on2 vs. on1.

[Catarina]

I think the issue goes beyond the basic elements of leading and following. It's a matter of musicality, phrasing, and expression. I haven't been dancing long, so I'ven't acquired this pet-peeve. So, it's kinda hard to explain. I'll defer to the more experienced for that. However, dancing on the second beat, 3rd or 4th is not as easy as ... (i don't know)...switching from Sprite to Sierra mist.:confused: Because you associate certain step with certain beat. You should read the thread about dancing to the clave and dancing on2 vs. on1.

I think I understand what you're saying, LatinDancer. If we're not dancing either on1 or on2 (can do both), but on another beat in the lead's head that I'm confused about, I have a tendency to step out of turns or spins either on the 1 or the 6, respectively, mostly because it is automatic for me to want to "correct" myself back to where i think i should be in the music. so yeah- maybe someday i'll get to where i can dance to whichever beat, but til then, i sure hope the leads that could intentionally dance on the other beats respect that I can't without the dance deteriorating, and go back to breaking on 1 or 2...

[englezul]

Marie, your description makes sense to me. I have fun dancing with ladies when there isn't even any music and they follow great. So how would we even know if we were on the 1?

I like learning. So I can find the 1/5 or 2/6 pretty well. I just have not figured out why my dance is any less fun breaking forward or backward yet? It will probably hit me one of these days :)

LoL. Of course they follow great when there's no music, it's easier because you set the pace and that pace doesn't conflict with anything. When music is on, she hears the rhythm and if you're off with the rhythm she senses, she thinks "what tha hell...I don't understand what this guy is listening to". And if she doesn't understands it she falls back to her default timing, on1 or on2 hoping that you will get it.

[kayak]

... but if I set a pace different from the music, my basic would start on 1 then 3 then 2 then 4 and be the definition of being off beat. I thought the question was what if the leader is on beat but exactly 4 beats off and breaking forward on the second measure?

Still, shouldn't the lady follow the guys center regardless? If he doesn't give her a pleasing dance, she can always say no next time.

[borikensalsero]

... but if I set a pace different from the music, my basic would start on 1 then 3 then 2 then 4 and be the definition of being off beat. I thought the question was what if the leader is on beat but exactly 4 beats off and breaking forward on the second measure?

Still, shouldn't the lady follow the guys center regardless? If he doesn't give her a pleasing dance, she can always say no next time.

You'd think they would... but, many many many followers and leaders alike can not, to save their life, dance outside that which they've been taught. There isn't any difference of what so ever, yet they can't manage to dance...

[witchphd]

...on beat but exactly 4 beats off and breaking forward on the second measure?


And that is why I still don't understand what the fuss is about in this thread. You can't establish a right or wrong side until you specify what style you are dancing. Breaking forward on the second measure is wrong for someone dancing on1, but if on2, breaking forward for the second measure all of a sudden becomes OK?

[GTO Bruin]

And that is why I still don't understand what the fuss is about in this thread. You can't establish a right or wrong side until you specify what style you are dancing. Breaking forward on the second measure is wrong for someone dancing on1, but if on2, breaking forward for the second measure all of a sudden becomes OK?

I agree. It's a matter of convention.

[salsamarty]

Marie's comment is usually correct if the leader and follower have a connection. The problem is that a lot dancers don't know how to maintain that pressure and frame so that the leader can transmit the dance timing and lead the patterns. Once the connection is broken then a beginning dance will probably revert to what they are familiar with.

[marie]

Marie's comment is usually correct if the leader and follower have a connection. The problem is that a lot dancers don't know how to maintain that pressure and frame so that the leader can transmit the dance timing and lead the patterns. Once the connection is broken then a beginning dance will probably revert to what they are familiar with.

I hear you on that one Marty. As much as I was saying it is good for the follower to help make it work by following, I think you are right that we would tend to return to the familiarity of the timing that we know. So ideally the guy and the girl would both be on time and lead/following at the same time.
I actually had a hard time "getting" the pause part in the middle and I actually finally got it through the lead follow connection. Somehow my teacher made it so that I could ONLY dance on time within his lead. Since my following skills are much better than my actual salsa dancing skills, I learned the salsa rhythm through the connection. So I see how if a couple didn't have connection and the timing was wacky then we are talking about an unpleasant dance.

[MapleLeaf Salsero]

It really isn't important if you step on1 or on5. As long as you and your partner are dancing with each other and having fun, that the important thing.