Learning Spanish to learn salsa?

[pygmalion]

Just curious. Yesterday, while I was out on the web, I found a salsa web site with a link where you could learn to speak Spanish. That got me thinking about the connection between speaking Spanish and salsa dancing. Do you think Spanish-speaking people have an advantage when it comes to salsa? In clubs? In interpreting the music? In fitting in/understanding the cultural implications? Would learning Spanish as an adult help? Or is that overkill?

[Salsero_AT]

I often thought about learning spanish but never found the time to do it. But i want to. I hope to understand the lyrics better so i can better interpret them when dancing. I think it would be cool to dance and to be able to sing along with the song... :)
Actually i learned some words from learning the rueda-commandos but only a few of course.
I think it is not too difficult. Spanish is quite close to italian, because there is a strong influence of latin. And i learned italian and latin in school.

[borikensalsero]

I love this topic, mainly because latinos actually think that a person must be latino to feel soul deepening salsa. That isn’t the case, I am actually worn out of listening to latinos who tell me that if you aren’t latino you can’t feel salsa like a latino who grew up with it can. Ahhhh, shut up!!! If a non-latino can’t feel salsa like you can, how come when you dance it, it is more than obvious that behind that smile, there is nothing!!! Not to mention that Asians and Hatians are all over the salsa scene. How do you explain that? Because they can’t feel like you can? Your dancing tells me nothing but I took lessons. Your body tells me, yeah, I love this stuff, however my love doesn’t reach my soul, but my mind. Being latino doesn’t come with a predetermined right to feel/love salsa more than someone else.

What it does give you the right to is understand the lyrics and help you better interpret what you can do within the music, and even relate to what ever cultural implications it carries. But not by any means the depth at which you feel the music. It’s like watching a horror movie, there is something about to happen, there is a conversation going on, even if you don’t understand what is being said when the music starts, bang, your body starts reacting. The music has just intensified what you hear and see. Body reacts to feeling, the brain makes sense of it. If we have noticed, when we are into a dance truly deeply, words seem to be just part of the music. They disappear, all we hear are instruments shaking our bodies, giving us purpose and direction, and the lyrics are but a soothing melody to the ears, and when there is a pause in the music, if the singer isn’t singing passionately the feeling felt by the body isn’t carried over during the singing solo. Eyes open and body starts to feel physical again, and it slows down in interpretation. Yeap, I can’t take away the fact that when we use the brain and start thinking the lyrics are the icing on the cake, besides a great song can’t be great without the lyrics, but when you not only hear, but feel with your soul, the lyrics are just another instrument in the band. Pop salsa, tropical salsa, and some romantic salsa excluded.

Great songs are completed by their lyrics, yes, and a non-speaker can understand, but those very same songs are the ones that are passionate and when passion pours out of a song, any soul can totally relate to it. Not the brain but a soul. That you do it is another token. That is why passionate people even if they don’t care for what someone else is passionate about, can relate to every word they speak of their loved passion. Because passion doesn’t require understanding but feeling…

[salsarhythms]

Well, I must say that I've been guilty of this.

I was of the thought that unless you were latin and
spoke the language, there was no way you could feel
the music in the same way.

Of course, this is a very limited view to the world and
I was much younger.

Now I understand the universal appeal to salsa or any
other form of art.

I mean, when I'm listening to an opera (yes I do enjoy
opera) I don't really understand what they are talking
about, but I can feel everything that is being said.

I know what's happening because of what I'm feeling.

Besides, communication between people is based on
so much more than just verbal...in fact the verbal part
is a very small percentage of the overall communication
we share between us.

No, you do not have to know Spanish to learn and enjoy
salsa...does it help?

Well, I'm sure it does to better understand the lyrics and
the story, but to feel and dance to the music...I don't think
so.

[jenibelle]

Great question! I've always wondered how non-Spanish speakers "hear" the songs. Do the lyrics just sound like a "wall" of voices that don't mean anything? I guess when you're dancing, you're hearing the beat and focusing on dancing rather than the words.

It can't be the lyrics what brings about passion...I have many friends who don't speak a word of Spanish, and yet listen to salsa music all day.

Jeni

[Sagitta]

Great question! I've always wondered how non-Spanish speakers "hear" the songs.

Jeni

I'm a non-Spanish speaker. It's like listening to people talking/singing in a language that you don't understand. The way a person says something sometimes can mean as much as what they say. So it isn't like a wall of voices that don't mean anything. I can get the gist of what is happening -- sad, happy, flirting, joyful, angry, despair...

[salsachinita]

Yep, Jeni. That's me 8) !

Ok, I do understand/speak a little.......just enough to get myself in trouble I think :P (but not good enough to get myself OUT of trouble)!

* :oops: you'd think I spent most of my life with Spanish speaking people, I should've know more, huh? :oops: *

But my dancing speaks for itself. Everywhere I go dancing, I got very suprised Latinos :shock: who want to know where I come from :wink: !

It's obvious I didn't resemble the 'studio-taught' variety (and that's not to say I'm a better dancer than they are! I know for a fact that my techniques have a lot of room to improve :oops: ), all over the dance floor.

Now I really believe I should put in some effort and learn Spanish properly. It will come in handy for a lot of the projects I wanna do (eg. I was touring with a show group from Cuba last year. Had I known Spanish better, I'd have learnt sooooo much more :roll: )!

Just another 'out-of-comfort-zone' factor I will have to deal with.........

[brujo]

Great topic, Jen.

Salsa is dance music. Party music. The lyrics don't matter. Do the Japanese grooving to 'the roof is on fire' lose anything when they don't speak English?

If you need help picking a theme for the song, I give you Brujo's handy list of 99.5% of salsa themes

a.) I love you baby. I hate you baby. You're a player. I'm in love and don't know what to do.
b.) This is a shoutout to Puerto Rico / Colombia / Cuba.
c.) Everybody get down and shake your thang.

Nobody in the salsa world sings about intimate experiences anymore. Boriken might be right about the cultural implications, but how deep does a salsero really ever go in his lyrics nowdays?

Use your imagination. No shirt, no Spanish, no problem.

[borikensalsero]

Imma get a bit off topic to clarity what Brujo mentioned. If you turn the radio on to a comercial salsa station you will definitelly, close to 100% of the time, guess what the song is about with Brujo's sugestions.

However, Classic salsa is rarely about love, shoutouts, or shake that thing baby.

Classic salsa was born in the "Ghetto" of Spanish Harlem by people who felt lost, oppressed, cornerd, but spirited. So, classic salsa took on those characteristics, hence songs speaking of the livestyle in the ghetto during the late and early 70s took root. Classic salsa spoke of its people, the gov't, food, life issues, and so on. Songs that were about love were mainly left for boleros and son montunos. Hence, why a classic salsaero refuses to say that todays salsa, or salsa romantic is true salsa.

The first love salsa ablum came out (1982) by Louie Ramirez (If I remember his name corectly, NOTE to self, look his name up again :oops: ). It marked the first time that Salsa turned romantic. The album is believed to have been made as a goof to show the Latin community that any type of music could be done as a salsa. Louie took famous mexican ranchera tunes and turned them into salsa. Well, what was the result? It was salsa's best selling ablum ever at the time. Salsa finally reached the ladies who were aching to have their feelings heard as well as non salseros. Everyone seemed to have bought the album. That album marks the beginning of the end for salsa classica/salsa dura and the birth of commercial salsa. Everyone jumped in the money making wagon and forgot about their souls, and ultimately what we all hear at most "salsa" and latin clubs in the world today, as well as the radio stations.

[Dancegal]

I thought I posted on this thread yesterday, but I guess it didn't come through.....

I am latin and speak Spanish and believe you don't need to be latino and/or speak Spanish to "feel" the music. Tne music alone, no lyrics, is captivating enough for anyone to "feel".

Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

[Vince A]

Most of Marc Anthony's CDs have songs in Spanish and English. As beautiful as the songs are is in Spanish, I do't believe that anything is lost in the translation to English, nor is the feel of the song . . .

Trivia . . . related topic . . . the number one selling song in Russia . . . ???
An 'in English' version of Born In The USA . . . I wonder if the Russians dance any less wildly than their American counterparts because the song is in English??? I don't think so.

The same applies here . . .

[salsachinita]

If you turn the radio on to a comercial salsa station you will definitelly, close to 100% of the time, guess what the song is about with Brujo's sugestions..

At least you guys get to hear salsa of ANY KIND on the radio stations :shock: ! (somethings that us salsa addicts down here would kill for)

There is only ONE radio station that plays salsa (and other 'latin') music, for two hours every Fri morning (there's also a Latin Jazz one). Some Spanish radio stations might a a program or two but one has to understand Spanish to listen for the broadcasting time :oops: !

Classic salsa was born in the "Ghetto" of Spanish Harlem by people who felt lost, oppressed, cornerd, but spirited. So, classic salsa took on those characteristics, hence songs speaking of the livestyle in the ghetto during the late and early 70s took root. Classic salsa spoke of its people, the gov't, food, life issues, and so on.

This is precisely why I felt the need to understand the lyrics......It will give me a more in-depth understanding of the people/culture.

[pygmalion]

There's gotta be a streaming audio salsa station out there. Does anybody know of one salsachinita can listen to over the computer?

[salsachinita]

There's gotta be a streaming audio salsa station out there. Does anybody know of one salsachinita can listen to over the computer?

Thanks for the thought, Jenn :D !

But my computer is too slow to play anything in full :cry: ......I get fragmented tracks (as for video cilps, you can forget about them!) :x !

I guess when I up grade to cable (if & when finance allows), it will happen :wink: !

[pygmalion]

Bummer. It's amazing how quickly new technology gets old. :cry: My computers are a little elderly, too. :cry:

[brujo]

There's gotta be a streaming audio salsa station out there. Does anybody know of one salsachinita can listen to over the computer?

Yeah, check these puppies out

www.batanga.com
www.salsastream.com
www.timba.com

[pygmalion]

Yes! Thanks. Now I can listen to salsa ALL DAY LONG! :lol: :D

[brujo]

The first love salsa ablum came out (1982) by Louie Ramirez (If I remember his name corectly, NOTE to self, look his name up again :oops: ). It marked the first time that Salsa turned romantic. The album is believed to have been made as a goof to show the Latin community that any type of music could be done as a salsa. Louie took famous mexican ranchera tunes and turned them into salsa. Well, what was the result? It was salsa's best selling ablum ever at the time. Salsa finally reached the ladies who were aching to have their feelings heard as well as non salseros. Everyone seemed to have bought the album. That album marks the beginning of the end for salsa classica/salsa dura and the birth of commercial salsa. Everyone jumped in the money making wagon and forgot about their souls, and ultimately what we all hear at most "salsa" and latin clubs in the world today, as well as the radio stations.

I have to disagree wth this one. It seems to easy to blame the downfall of salsa on that one salsa romantica album. There have always been salsa love songs. The ones that come to mind is Hector Lavoe's Ausencias ( 1972? ) and Joe Cuba's Mujer Divina ( 1966? ). There were definitively other factors in the decay of salsa clasica, such as:

a) The rising popularity of Hip Hop as a replacement of the Barrio's social conscience, something that might still be true today ( Orishas, Control Machete, Molotov ).
b) A backlash against Fania ( they sold out ) + unoriginal albums
c) Juan Luis Guerra and the rise of Merengue.
d) MTV. ~> all the sudden, pretty boy singers replaced the seasoned club veterans in the charts.

[borikensalsero]

I have to disagree wth this one. It seems to easy to blame the downfall of salsa on that one salsa romantica album. There have always been salsa love songs. The ones that come to mind is Hector Lavoe's Ausencias ( 1972? ) and Joe Cuba's Mujer Divina ( 1966? ). There were definitively other factors in the decay of salsa clasica, such as:

a) The rising popularity of Hip Hop as a replacement of the Barrio's social conscience, something that might still be true today ( Orishas, Control Machete, Molotov ).
b) A backlash against Fania ( they sold out ) + unoriginal albums
c) Juan Luis Guerra and the rise of Merengue.
d) MTV. ~> all the sudden, pretty boy singers replaced the seasoned club veterans in the charts.

The downfall of salsa in the salsa community is directly related to the start of salsa romantic as well as, afterwards, the downfall of fania, and the emergance of merengue in the 80s. However, when salsa classica is spoken of despite all the variables which brought its life to a halt, is marked by the emergance of salsa romantica and its high success which still has today despite merengue, hiphop, and MTV. Example, Marc Anthony.

Ausencia by Hector Lavoe isn't a salsa. It is a son montuno.
Joe Cuba's Mujer Divina is a boogaloo.

It is very easy to confuse similar sounds and throw them in the mix with salsa. Which is what most salseros do. Because Hector sang it, or it was from the 70s it doesn’t make it a Salsa song. When buying a pre 69 CD with salsa what is meant is that the album is compilation of music genres such as Boogaloo, guaguanco, guajira, son, son montuno, Rumba, Bomba, Pachanga, Charanga, etc. They don’t refer to what is known as the salsa genre which means all those styles incorporated into it’s songs. Not one and the same.

The hip hop rise was incorporated into boogaloos in the early 60s. Fania didn’t sell out until it started getting into funk music and not treating their artists correctly towards the early 80s. The impact of Juan Luis Guerra was pretty much non-existent to salsa dura. The impact of merengue was in the 80s when NY City became the center of attention for Domincans and salsa romantica was it. Soon, the easier to dance and catchy beat of merengue took over. But that didn’t happen until the early 80s. Hence, why Ruben Blades is known to have extended salsa classica’s life until around 1985. Again, MTV didn’t have an impact on Classic salsa during the 70s. MTV didn’t come out until the early 80s. 1981 if I remember correctly. Which all coincides with the 1982 Romantic CD by Louie. The world was turning, as you mentioned pretty, but always remember that salsa classica was knocked out by salsa romantica. The rest where jabs in the entire bout. Indeed there was salsa classica’s with love themes, however they by no means sound to what we have today. Despite their theme they are still considered salsa dura because of their hard beat, and not as popular to make during the Ghetto beat of the young music known as salsa, and why Son Montunos, boogaloos, and boleros all pretty much sound close to sloooooow salsa but aren’t.

The reason why it was brought down by salsa romantica is because everyone jumped in the band-wagon. All salsa classica artist began selling out to their beat and began recording Romantica. All of them, not one was left who didn't.

[Soñador]

For those of you searching for online salsa music here I got some links where you can listen to salsa on your computer as if it was a radio! Only thing you need is a pretty fast internet connection!

http://www.radiosalsa.net/
http://www.radiohc.cu/audiorhc.html

[SDsalsaguy]

On the thread topic of learning Spanish for salsa, does anyone else sing along to half the songs they're dancing too but have no idea what the heck they're singing/saying as they do it? :lol:

[Sagitta]

I don't have that much of a memory for these things, but I hum a lot, when in the mood. :? Also for a few songs I do sing snatches/fragments.

[borikensalsero]

I'm guilty of that... SD :D :D
It isn't until someone points out that I'm making no sense that I notice I have no idea what the song says.

[SDsalsaguy]

I guess that this dynamic really gets at the fact that one can get totally caught up in and swept along by the music/song without speaking Spanish! :D

Although it may also explain why I get so many strange looks when I come of the floor and look blankly at those who start yammering at me in Spanish! :lol:

[brujo]

Ausencia by Hector Lavoe isn't a salsa. It is a son montuno.
Joe Cuba's Mujer Divina is a boogaloo.



I see your point. And I don't exactly disagree with it. But don't you think this is just an argument over semantics? Salsa was devised as a blanket term, whether guaganco, son, rumba. To most people, it's still salsa.

Maybe your definition of salsa clasica is different than mine. So, what makes a salsa clasica song a salsa clasica?

[salsachinita]

On the thread topic of learning Spanish for salsa, does anyone else sing along to half the songs they're dancing too but have no idea what the heck they're singing/saying as they do it? :lol:

:D Yep, I do this!!

Although it may also explain why I get so many strange looks when I come of the floor and look blankly at those who start yammering at me in Spanish! :

Get these ALL the time :roll: ......no matter where I go in the world! so I really DO need to learn Spanish!

[jenibelle]

Salsachinita:

YES YES YES!

Learn Spanish! A lot of friends of mine say they've been meaning to do it for ages. And they'll "get around to it." BUT THE SOONER THE BETTER!
Yay you can do it!

Jeni :) :) :)

[vey]

I do not know Spanish but can pick up a few words and I'm constantly asking my partners /friends to translate here and there :) But I think I do it out of natural curiousity for languages rather from real need to understand in order to dance and it can be a great and funny conversation starter with a new person.

I have it in my plans to take Spanish language classes as well, but for now I 've got a dictionary to look up words I'm curious about and which also comes in handy sometimes when I'm reading some posts :lol:

[borikensalsero]

Ausencia by Hector Lavoe isn't a salsa. It is a son montuno.
Joe Cuba's Mujer Divina is a boogaloo.



I see your point. And I don't exactly disagree with it. But don't you think this is just an argument over semantics? Salsa was devised as a blanket term, whether guaganco, son, rumba. To most people, it's still salsa.

Maybe your definition of salsa clasica is different than mine. So, what makes a salsa clasica song a salsa clasica?

I used to have the same confusion with the meanings when I first started learning about salsa and the chaotic mess of labels. A salsa song is that song which incorporates all different genres within it. The salsa term as in pre 1969 is an umbrella term used to mean different genres of music as you have mentioned, which included merengue, bomba, cumbia, reggae, son montuno, son, guaguanco, pretty much anything with Caribbean origins, regardless of Cuban origin. That is where the mix up happens in the debate of salsa from pre 1968 and salsa from 1969 to around 1982.

Anything belonging from before and up to around 1968 belongs to the umbrella term Salsa, which means a bunch of music genres; they can either be compiled into a CD, played at a club, studio, or radio. However anything after 1969, which clearly isn’t it’s own genre, examples are, son, son montuno, guaguanco, guaracha, guajira, merengue, etc, and incorporate, all or some, of those genre into its own music and follows a salsa musical pattern, belongs to the genre of Salsa. Salsa broke off into its own branch, where as a salsa song can contain any of the other genres within its tunes, the others only contain its own genre style songs.

Classic salsa genre music is anything from the late 60s to the early 80s. "Classic salsa" under the umbrella term of Salsa is different music genres from 68 and earlier, although you can throw newer songs into the pile, by this time salsa was already a genre and other music labeled under their genre. Another term is Salsa dura, which was given birth by NY Style salsa where the hard sounds and crazy going nuts, fast stuff (not necessarily) was found, however not limited to NY. There is also the term descarga, or the music genre thought off as Descarga. Which is an entire song as a jam session of just about any genre, usually dating pre 1969, but very popular with the alegre all starts in the 70s. Salsa Classica is also thought of as Salsa Dura. Then we had Rican salsa, Columbian Salsa, and Cuban Salsa. If a person is a savvy Salsero he can pretty much tell apart what classic salsa belongs to what country by how it sounds. So, while we can say that ausencia belongs to the umbrella term salsa, in reference to it belonging to the period where Caribbean music was referred to as salsa, we cannot confuse its genre of Son Montuno with the genre of salsa. It would be erroneous and misleading. It is impossible to confuse a salsa with a son montuno after we have gotten he necessary knowledge. However, we would be more inline if we mistakenly called it a cha-cha.

Is summary, most don't know the distinction between all the types of music, therefore will generally make the mistake of saying that a song is a salsa, when in reality it isn't, and would, to a savvy salsero sound like he can't tell the difference between types of music. The dance to those genres aren't even the same. All the categorization of the song as a salsa means is that it belongs to a period in time where Salsa meant music from the caribbean and not its own genre. They aren't the same thing, if you ever get a chance to speak to any top salsero musician jokingly call their song another genre and they'll instantly correct you as to where it really belongs. Otherwise, all music in cuba, and the caribbean would be called Salsa but they aren't.

[Soñador]

Well, personnally I don't really see why someone should learn spanish to dance salsa. I mean I'm speaking spanish but most people here I know who are dancing salsa, don't speak spanish and some of them are much, much better than me... I dunno maybe understanding the song may help some people to dance but as long as I know, my dancing steps and manners don't really depend on what is said in the song but on the rhythm and other such things...

[Porfirio Landeros]

Si quieres comprender lo que escribo, es necessario saber espanol, o tener un diccionario.

Pero, si quieres aprender salsa, yo pienso que no necesitas hablar espanol.

Pero, quien soy yo? Solamente un bailarin de salon.

8)

[SDsalsaguy]

:? :?:

[vey]

Si quieres comprender lo que escribo, es necessario saber espanol, o tener un diccionario.

Pero, si quieres aprender salsa, yo pienso que no necesitas hablar espanol.

Pero, quien soy yo? Solamente un bailarin de salon.

8)

Eso es verdad :)

Dear Porfirio Landeros, Have mercy for those of us who have to use dictionaries :lol:

[Soñador]

Si quieres comprender lo que escribo, es necessario saber espanol, o tener un diccionario.

Pero, si quieres aprender salsa, yo pienso que no necesitas hablar espanol.

Pero, quien soy yo? Solamente un bailarin de salon.

8)

Estoy de acuerdo! :wink:

[brujo]

Si quieres comprender lo que escribo, es necessario saber espanol, o tener un diccionario.

Pero, si quieres aprender salsa, yo pienso que no necesitas hablar espanol.

Pero, quien soy yo? Solamente un bailarin de salon.

8)

But the question is, did what you just said have enough substance for me to want to learn spanish?

[DanceMentor]

Si quieres comprender lo que escribo, es necessario saber espanol, o tener un diccionario.

Pero, si quieres aprender salsa, yo pienso que no necesitas hablar espanol.

Pero, quien soy yo? Solamente un bailarin de salon.

8)

Here is my personal translation without a dictionary:

If you want to understand what I write, it in necessary to know Spanish, or to have a dictionary. But, if you know how to learn salsa, I think it is not necessary to speak Spanish.

I've had 3 years of Spanish in school, but I'm terrible at speaking Spanish. I can read and translate pretty well though.

[salsachinita]

Yep, DM, that was what I've gathered without a dictionary :o !

I can read & understand a fair bit (while not too confident when people make me listen or speak), but my grammar isn't really there, so I can miss quite a bit of information.

Time to learn Spanish...... 8)

[Soñador]

Yea if you want to and can do it, learn spanish!! It's a great language!!! It's my forth and ain't difficult at all!!! Me gusta espanol!!! :D

[DanceMentor]

A quick tip for typing the ñ character in Español:
Hold down the "Alt" key. Then type 0241.

[SDsalsaguy]

Hey, that's cool! Do you know the code for Å? Do you have a list for all of these you could e-mail me?

[Soñador]

ñ WOW it works!!! :shock: LOl Thanks! I used to copy it and paste it from Word every time I wanted to write it... but then I got fed up by it and started typing simply n...

[SDsalsaguy]

See here (http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=1805) for one more option by new DF member mrsalsoul! :D

[mrsalsoul]

http://www.live365.com/stations/mrsalsoul?play

...Click the link above (or copy it into your browser) to listen!

[brujo]

1 word. AFRICANDO.

[looyenyeo]

"Learning Spanish to learn Salsa."

To answer this, I think you'd have to decide what you want to know of salsa.

If you want to think of it as a dance, and to dance it well, then I don't think it necessary.

If you want to experience the humor in social commentary of "la maleta", cheeky double entendres in "cuarto de tula"; the pain of slavery in "rebellion", and still remain primarily in the realm of music, then you would need some command of the language.

If salsa, for you, becomes a window onto cultural identity, national identity, gender relations, enthomusicology, religion, human subjugation, and transnationalisation, then you would have to have a decent comprehension and be prepared to do more.

And if you want to know it well enough to teach, DJ, play, or write it, then it would be up to you to decide how good you want to be.

(not very good with subjective posts)
Loo

[pygmalion]

Not good with subjective posts? Why do you think not?

I think you made some good points -- how much Spanish you know depends on what your goals are. Good advice. :)