How do you justify $100+ private lessons? [Archive]

KevinL

12-18-2003, 09:50 AM

The program we sold was $115 per unit which consisted of 1 40 minute private lesson, 1 40 minute group lesson and 1 40 minute practice party.

Another post listed $127 per 45 minute lesson. That amounts to about $175/ hour (not counting the free group class and practice party) for each of those rates. Holy Cow!

I just checked the DanceVision.com website for one of their mastery camps, and you can book private lessons with world champions for $95/ 45 minutes (that's still $126/hour). I've read other posts saying that people can sometimes book lessons with champions for ~$60-75/hour.

In this area, attorneys charge $60-100/hour. So based on that comparison, it's a little hard to justify $175/hour for dance lessons! However, I assume attorneys charge more in other areas, so maybe that isn't the best comparison.

How do people justify what amounts to $175/hour? People pay it, so it must be acceptable, and therefore justifiable. It does seem like an awful lot of money, though.

=====

I'm all for people, especially dance teachers, earning a good livelihood through doing what they love. I also understand that the overhead of running a dance business can be expensive, but charging $175/hour seems expensive. I'm in a different situation than chain studios, I rent space in churches and halls, and travel to where the students are, so my overhead isn't really that high.

I officially charge $60/ 50 minute private lessons, although I usually go for most of the full hour. If people buy groups of 5 lessons, the price drops to $55/50 min. If they buy 10 lessons, the price drops to $50/ 50 min. That's a lot of money, though, so how do I justify it? As above, people pay it, so it must be acceptable. That's still not a good enough justification, though.

Here's my justification:

1) When I moved here I checked the rates of other local instructors and set my rates in the middle of what they charged (between $50-65/hour). This was, in part, an effort not to annoy other teachers. However, people often put more value on what they have to pay for. Sure, I could give away my "product", but would people put as much value, and therefor personal effort, into their lessons?

2) Although I don't teach full-time yet (and may never be able to given the population density of Vermont), if I were to teach full time I would need to charge $60/hour to maintain my present lifestyle. (After paying for space rental, insurance, and upkeep on my materials and continued dance training.) I would need to charge that amount since dance instruction is cyclical, and it is unlikely that I would be able to teach 40 hours/week consistently, if ever. Probably the best I can ever hope for consistently is ~30 hours per week given that most people can only take lessons after the normal work day is done.

Kevin

borikensalsero

12-18-2003, 10:23 AM

I truly believe that the public doesn't have the necessary knowledge to make the proper decision on whether a product, any product, is worth its price tag.

Example, Brand name pharmaceutical products cost almost double of the generic brand. Yet, they have the same ingredients, as well as the same potency. Clothing is made out of the same materials, yet people are willing to pay $80 for a Gucci fitted shirt, when you can go, for $10, and to the T, buy a replica of it.

The world has fallen into the trap that money equals quality. Yet, a $20,000 Honda car is by far a way better car than the $300,000 tag Ferrari and Lamborghini charge for theirs. Yet, people swear that Honda isn't the better car because of the price difference. Lets not go that far, Honda and Toyota are way better cars than Mercedes, BMW and VW put together. Yet the $$ sings speak better quality.

Yes, there is cheap stuff out there that is absolutely horrible. But again, this proves how savvy a consumer you are. If you buy it without being informed about it first, it is no-ones but your own fault that you made a poor choice.

It is one thing to pay for the material quality of a product. As music instruments, they tend for the most part be more expensive the better they are, for the only reason that most music companies won't settle for a lesser material which causes the instrument to sound cheap.

When it comes our first dance lessons, we don't know what is better, or even what we want, even less what your first instructor has to offer. On top of that what if there is only one place in town? Only by falling down, asking around can you eventually figure out if the $175/hour tag is worth it. In my opinion, it isn't, no matter how top notch the instructor is. The greatness of your instructor says nothing about how far you will go. It even says less of how good the teaching skills of the instructor are. Because I'm a top-notch dancer, doesn't mean I can pass on the information to you. Now is it worth to some? Yeap.

Yes, make a living, but when does morality come into play when we believe that a living is owning a Mercedes Benz, a big house, go on vacation 5 times a year, fine wines and gourmet meals in $50 a plate restaurants. I don't see the difference in stealing from someone because I know I won't get caught and abuse a fellow person because they can afford to pay the money I'm asking for my own personal material gains and ultimately a greedy ego.

pygmalion

12-18-2003, 10:29 AM

Oh man! I'm trying so hard to stay out of this conversation, but I can't! :lol:

The irony is that, at dance camps or dance competitions, you can buy a 50 minute private lesson with one of the world's top pros for $100 or less, although I'm sure some charge more. Yet, at the same time, I know people who are paying $150 an hour to take private lessons with people who've had six to eight weeks training, total. :shock:

Vince A

12-18-2003, 10:59 AM

Oh man! I'm trying so hard to stay out of this conversation, but I can't! :lol: :shock:

Come on Jenn . . . jump in with both feet!

Maybe this is a good time to start what we've talked about in "the other" forum????

DanceMentor

12-18-2003, 11:21 AM

borikensalsero

12-18-2003, 11:31 AM

I used to got to a studio where the "front end" instructors didn't have more than a year experience dancing between all 3 of them. Yet, a private was 75 with them and 115 with the main instructor, if he didn't know you. When the main instructor told me that he would have one of the start teaching me. I decided it was time to leave.

The funny part was when they had socials, the main instructor would get mad because all his male students spent time talking to me and telling him that they wanted to dance like me. Yet, he was a 100 times more skilled and still is more than me.

His following is for the most part, the people who are there to only dance a studio. They never leave the comforts of the home. All the dancing they do is at the studio. They are discouraged to dance socially, and pressed into buying $3000 packages to learn a bunch of dances they will never use sitting in front of the sofa. Yet, he laughs and says that he can make anyone do what he wants. We got to be close but I decided to stray when I really saw his main reason for dancing. $$$$$

Vince A

12-18-2003, 11:33 AM

And if they are going to bundle in group lessons and say that you are really only paying $30 per session, what is the quality of the group lessons?

In my experience, it's the new teachers who are being paid $10/hour and have been dancing for 6 months that are doing many of the groups.
Yep . . . and that's one of the varied reasons that I do not do group lessons . . . the last group lesson that I attended, was a judge, who taught what the judges "are looking for" as they judge a Waltz competition.

Did I learn anything? Absolutely not . . . my Waltz still sucks! But now, HE knows me by name now, and sometimes that's as good as doing a perfect chasse' . . . :wink: You get what you pay for!!!!!!

borikensalsero

12-18-2003, 11:46 AM

And if they are going to bundle in group lessons and say that you are really only paying $30 per session, what is the quality of the group lessons?

In my experience, it's the new teachers who are being paid $10/hour and have been dancing for 6 months that are doing many of the groups.

The studios I've been to in NY City (6) haven't had the newbies teach group lessons. There is just too much going on for them to handle it. Especially in a place where just about everyone is as skilled as the next guy. Usually the way better dancers, or seasoned instructors are in charge of group lessons.

If newbies do teach, they have the new commers to dancing take the group classes with the new instructors. Wow, the blind leading the blind. But where does a new instructor get his chance?

DanceMentor

12-18-2003, 11:52 AM

KevinL

12-18-2003, 12:53 PM

Example, Brand name pharmaceutical products cost almost double of the generic brand. Yet, they have the same ingredients, as well as the same potency.

Yes, but the difference between brand name pharmaceuticals and generic drugs are that the producers of the generic drugs don't have to spend the time, effort and money to discover a new drug and then prove that it is safe and effective.

When you buy pharmaceuticals you aren't paying the cost of making the drug. Even generic drug makers make a good profit, or they wouldn't be making the drugs! What you pay for when you buy name brand drugs is the cost of developing that drug. More importantly, since that development money has already been spent, you are paying for the development of the next miricle drug that will positively impact the world.

Pharmaceutical companies have to invest ten years and (about) $10 billion dollars before they get a product that is safe and effective. Then they only have 7 years (or however much time is left on the patent) to recover all of that cost, while still developing the next mircle drug.
Once the patent time is over, all the generic drug makers can start producing their product, including all of the formulations that they've proven work, without paying for it. Pure profit, with no risk.

Kevin

SwinginBoo

12-18-2003, 01:18 PM

borikensalsero

12-18-2003, 01:37 PM

You touches on something I wanted to say more about,
borikensalsero.

It is not uncommon for the private lessons of these very expensive programs to be taught by people with less than a year of experience.

I think it all gets back to this: The ownership is designing the program to get money first, and teach the students second.

Isn't it shoking... :shock: :shock:
I'm by no means business oriented, nor particularly care for money. So, it is hard for me to understand that all the love a person has for dancing when they create their own dance studio gets replaced with money hunger.

When does love die? Is it when the first client accepts to pay the 175? What ever happen to "for the love of". Please, please don't tell me that the next step is to behave like PRO sports players who fight over who should get paid $20 million, instead of $19.5 million. :(

KevinL

12-18-2003, 01:44 PM

I truly believe that the public doesn't have the necessary knowledge to make the proper decision on whether a product, any product, is worth its price tag.

If the public chooses to pay a price, they feel that it is worth the price tag. Therefore, for that person, they have made the proper decision.

Yes, make a living, but when does morality come into play when we believe that a living is owning a Mercedes Benz, a big house, go on vacation 5 times a year, fine wines and gourmet meals in $50 a plate restaurants.

Do you know dance teachers who can afford to do those things? None of the teachers I've known have been like that, although admittedly I've only known about 20 dance teachers in my life. Most of them had to work hard to make ends meet, and I doubt any of them ate regularly at $50/plate restaurants. They did tend to take time off, though. Although I think that had more to do with the physical and emotional demands of teaching dance and the need to recuperate rather than the financial means to not need to work

I don't see the difference in stealing from someone because I know I won't get caught and abuse a fellow person because they can afford to pay the money I'm asking for my own personal material gains and ultimately a greedy ego.

As I've mentioned, I don't think charging $175/hour for dance lessons (or anything else) is reasonable, but apparently enough other people (yes, probably uninformed people) think that rate is acceptable because those businesses stay in business.

I don't see how charging exorbitant fees correlates with stealing from someone. No-one is forced to pay high rates, the students choose to pay them. If the students weren't willing to pay those rates, they wouldn't. So another wedding couple would do the "clutch and sway" dance, so what? The point is that people will pay those rates because they put enough value on what they think they will be learning. Is it right? Is it valuable? IS it justifiable? We don't think so because we are better informed than the average person off the street.

borikensalsero

12-18-2003, 01:57 PM

Yes, but the difference between brand name pharmaceuticals and generic drugs are that the producers of the generic drugs don't have to spend the time, effort and money to discover a new drug and then prove that it is safe and effective.
Kevin

Wepa... My brother is rather involved into this whole topic.

There really isn't such a thing as a mircle drug. The beleif the world has is that they can do whatever they want with their bodies then take one pill and take care of what ever destruction they've done to the body.

The United States Gov't is trying to reduce their patent to 2 years because of 911. They finally saw that if something was to happen the greed of the money-making capitalists would keep the country from surviving. Why? Because they wouldn't have sufficient time to produce the large amounts needed to immunize everyone. Do we really think that Pharmaceutical companies need around 10 years to make profit out of a new drug? If that was the case would capitalist US allow, at any cost, for that 10 year number to be lowered to 2. If the case was that it took so long to make their money back, would they be profitable organizations?

Drug companies are the only companies who never went through a recession. Do we really think that they aren't making any money, despite the 10s of billions spent in research? Just like they only show the public the positive performances their drugs have, the same they do when they speak of money. No, they are safe, if is the case how come people keep dying because of side effects to drugs?

Why is it that the US hasn't allowed natural medicine to take root? While in the orient and europe is very well rooted? Money? It is not only way cheaper but way safer. It isn't about developing or helping anyone, it is about who the next Bill Gates is going to be. What is the funniest is that the US supposedly has the bestest of drugs yet everyone is sick. The more money we make the more we want, all of this just to say that there is a difference between the two but why do you have to pay to live?

salsarhythms

12-18-2003, 02:20 PM

This is a very interesting topic.

First off, this is the first time that I can say that I
completely disagree with DanceMentor and BorikenSalsero...

#1. Contrary to popular belief, the consumer is much smarter
today then ever before. With information so readily available
many people do inform themselves a lot more when it comes
to making a purchase.

To say that Honda and Mercedes are in the same class is way
off base. Sure, a car is a car, and both will take you from A
to B, but let's face it, Mercedes does not do well because of
how reliable it is, they do well because they sell to the prestige
that comes with owning one of their vehicles.

When someon buys a Mercedes, they buy it because of how
it makes them feel...not because of technology that most of
us don't even understand anyway.

That person has made an informed decision, and it's a decision
mostly based on emotion...which is all sales is anyway.

We buy on emotion...sure we'll use logic to justify it (safety,
traction control, ABS breaks...whatever) but we buy on
emotion.

A 99 cent Bic pen will write just as well as a $400.00 Mont Blanc
but the person that buys the Mont Blanc does for very different
reasons...status symbol, prestige, whatever...

It's no secret that I sell an information product and let me tell
you, there were many in the salsa dancing circle that were
pretty pissed off at me for doing so...

To them, I was comercializing something that is art...

I get no less than 3-7 emails PER DAY from people expressing
how much my product has helped them...helped them in terms
of their self-confidence, their enjoyment of the music, the way
their dance partners feel with them...

Those are things that you don't put a price on.

Of course, I feel that way because I can look you in the eye
and be 100% certain that what I am providing to you WILL
benefit you.

The business man that sells to you but is cheating you at some
level, will not be successful for a long time. Word travels fast
and believe me a business is built on RELATIONSHIPS, not
one time sales.

This is why Mercedes, Ferrari, and others are still in business,
because of the relationships they have formed with their
customer. Customers that end up being RAVING FANS of
their products.

Is $175.00 per hour too much?

Depends on you. On how much you want it.

Think about it.

In this year 2003, how much did you spend on entertainment,
going out to dinner, buying clothes...way up there in the]
thousands I'm sure.

Now, think about this:

How much money did you spend on educating your mind,
your soul, your spirit?

Much less...

Dance, just like any other art form, is about educating yourself
it's about giving yourself something that you can enjoy and
distract yourself from the day-to-day routine...

Yes, I would pay that if it meant that I can feel better about
myself, if it meant that I can go out and socialize, meet new
people, have a great time. It's a small price to pay when you
consider the sacrifice we must make in our everyday lives.

You can spend that much on a single night out at a club...

What did you get out of that one night out after spending
$100-$200?

Just a hangover?

No, you met new people, you distracted yourself, you had
fun, you were able to socialize, you were able to let go and
relax, take the edge off...whatever...

Sales is a funny thing, because most people have negative
feelings toward it...with good reason too, I mean there are
a lot of shady people.

However, sales is all about exchanging something (currency,
money) for something that, for you, is worth more than
the price.

So if as a salesperson you are delivering and OVER-delivering
on your promise than there is nothing wrong with it.

salsarhythms

12-18-2003, 02:25 PM

Just wanted to add something here:

DanceMentor mentioned that the ownership is thinking
about making money first and then thinking of the
students second...

I can say this, if this is a common practice, for whatever
business, that business will fail in the long run. It may
take a while depending on how deep their pockets are,
but eventually it will fail.

Word of mouth is powerful stuff, and eventually, if the consumer
is not being taken care of, they will go elsewhere.

pygmalion

12-18-2003, 02:46 PM

In my experience, it's the new teachers who are being paid $10/hour and have been dancing for 6 months that are doing many of the groups.

Yes, DM. I've seen this too. I wasn't exaggerating when I said people fresh out of the six-week training program are placed with students, who generally pay the HIGHEST rates, because they're buying a small number of lessons. So people are paying a normalized rate of $150 an hour for newbie teachers.

And they don't know better. Unfortunately, I don't think this is going to improve through greater consumer awareness, for several reasons. One is that studios that operate this way are very careful about financial information. When you go in to be "conferenced", you never leave the room with written figures unless you've signed a contract. They handle contracts the same way others handle salary information -- with utmost secrecy.

Also, studios are very insular. They provide a start to finish dance experience, and often actively discourage their students from having outside dance experiences.

And here's the clincher. They manipulate their students into forming emotional attachments with them. Once that happens, people do not leave, even when presented with evidence of the studios' bad behavior. When I left my last studio, I pulled a close friend aside and gave him the scoop -- who I was studying with, how much it cost, the fact that the quality was so much higher and the price lower. Know what he did? Stayed at the franchise studio that was overcharging him for shoddy instruction. And this is an intelligent guy who owns a couple businesses and is a shrewd businessman, formerly a salesman. So he KNEW what was up, but he chose to stay, for emotional reasons.

The people running these studios stay in business because they are REALLY GOOD at manipulating emotionally vulnerable people. And as long as there are lonely widows/divorcees out there, there will be studios to take advantage of them. :x :?

My two cents.

KevinL

12-18-2003, 02:48 PM

Wepa... My brother is rather involved into this whole topic.

Really? How is your brother involved in the brand/ generic discussion?

Personally, I worked as a lab technician for Pfizer (now the worlds largest Pharmaceutical company), from 1995-2000. I'm still doing research, but now in an University setting.

There really isn't such a thing as a mircle drug. The beleif the world has is that they can do whatever they want with their bodies then take one pill and take care of what ever destruction they've done to the body.

That is quite true. Any drug can have a negative effect if taken improperly. Aspirin is great, but if you take too much it can make you sick.

The United States Gov't is trying to reduce their patent to 2 years because of 911. They finally saw that if something was to happen the greed of the money-making capitalists would keep the country from surviving. Why? Because they wouldn't have sufficient time to produce the large amounts needed to immunize everyone.

I don't understand this part of your response. Pharmaceuticals aren't used for immunizations.

Do we really think that Pharmaceutical companies need around 10 years to make profit out of a new drug? If that was the case would capitalist US allow, at any cost, for that 10 year number to be lowered to 2.

You are right, capatilist US will not allow the patent protection to be decreased to 2 years (I haven't heard anything about that prospect). What would most likely happen would be that all of those people who have money invested in pharamceutical companies would sell their shares, there would be no further money available, and research into new drug remedies would cease.

If the case was that it took so long to make their money back, would they be profitable organizations?

And yes, I know that it takes that long to "make their money back". However, as I pointed out, pharmaceutical companies don't try to make their money back. The money you pay for a drug today goes into the development of the next drug (minus the divdends paid to investors to ensure that individuals continue to support pharmaceutical research). And again, you are right, if pharmaceutical companies do not continue to be profitable then investors will not take the risk of investing 10 years and $10 billion to produce a product that might end up with no market and no way to recoup their losses.

Drug companies are the only companies who never went through a recession. Do we really think that they aren't making any money, despite the 10s of billions spent in research?

Again, yes the stockholders of the pharmaceutical companies do need to be paid profits for them to continue to support the research into new drugs.

Just like they only show the public the positive performances their drugs have, the same they do when they speak of money. No, they are safe, if is the case how come people keep dying because of side effects to drugs?

Let's see, why do people die due to side effects? Sometimes because other medical conditions are missed, sometimes because the patients don't follow the correct dosing schedules. Yes, sometimes because the drugs turn out to have unexpected side effects. Thalidomide was a great drug for eliminating nausea. It worked great, except that it caused birth defects when used by pregnant women. But it wasn't possible to find that out before the drug was on the market.

Why is it that the US hasn't allowed natural medicine to take root? While in the orient and europe is very well rooted? Money? It is not only way cheaper but way safer.

Way cheaper and way safer? Really? Do you have any data to show that natural medicine is safer? No, of course not, because the reseach hasn't been done. Why hasn't it been done? Because most of the time and cost in developing new pharamceuticals is proving that they are safe and effective. Most of the 10 years and $10 billion goes toward clinical trials to prove safety and efficacy, and no-one who supports natural medicine has the time and money to invest in those clinical trials. However pharmaceutical companies do have the time (and money) to take natural products and use them as a springboard to designing drugs that they can prove are effective, and that they are able to earn money selling.

It isn't about developing or helping anyone, it is about who the next Bill Gates is going to be. What is the funniest is that the US supposedly has the bestest of drugs yet everyone is sick. The more money we make the more we want, all of this just to say that there is a difference between the two but why do you have to pay to live?

Why do you have to pay to live? You don't. You can choose not to buy groceries, but then you starve to death. You can choose not to buy fuel for your home, but then you freeze to death. You can choose not to buy pharmaceuticals, but then you die when your body gives up, instead of artificially extending your lifespan. Personally, I'm going to buy groceries, and heat my house, and use the modern medical marvels for as long as I possibly can.

Kevin

borikensalsero

12-18-2003, 02:55 PM

If the public chooses to pay a price, they feel that it is worth the price tag. Therefore, for that person, they have made the proper decision.

Is a

Do you know dance teachers who can afford to do those things? None of the teachers I've known have been like that, although admittedly I've only known about 20 dance teachers in my life. Most of them had to work hard to make ends meet, and I doubt any of them ate regularly at $50/plate restaurants. They did tend to take time off, though. Although I think that had more to do with the physical and emotional demands of teaching dance and the need to recuperate rather than the financial means to not need to work

As I've mentioned, I don't think charging $175/hour for dance lessons (or anything else) is reasonable, but apparently enough other people (yes, probably uninformed people) think that rate is acceptable because those businesses stay in business.

I don't see how charging exorbitant fees correlates with stealing from someone. No-one is forced to pay high rates, the students choose to pay them. If the students weren't willing to pay those rates, they wouldn't. So another wedding couple would do the "clutch and sway" dance, so what? The point is that people will pay those rates because they put enough value on what they think they will be learning. Is it right? Is it valuable? IS it justifiable? We don't think so because we are better informed than the average person off the street.

Is a decision made with wrong information, or a lack of the proper decision? It might be a decision but the proper can only be to a relative term, hence, subject to enhancement. A decision can always be proper, but being wise is another token.

It isn’t that I know of, but why something is done. Yes, trying to survive is one thing, but to say that a well off studio with a good number of student charges that kind of fee, might have more to do with money than product.

Again, a decision made with a lack of understanding is by no means a wise decision. All it is, is a decision.

Stealing and charging too much? I say so because I don’t see a difference between overcharging the misinformed, and taking their money from their wallet without their consent. It is about frame of mind and not action. Who places value? The owner? That isn’t the fairest of places to seek a fair deal?

It all goes back to misinformation. If we think is wrong because we know better, why should the person that knows less pay more because they happen to not be better informed? Business stay in business because of that great little belief of I pay more so I’m getting a better something. They could also have some immaculate service, as well as the aura of CASTES…

jon

12-18-2003, 02:56 PM

Why is it that the US hasn't allowed natural medicine to take root? While in the orient and europe is very well rooted? Money? It is not only way cheaper but way safer. It isn't about developing or helping anyone, it is about who the next Bill Gates is going to be. What is the funniest is that the US supposedly has the bestest of drugs yet everyone is sick. The more money we make the more we want, all of this just to say that there is a difference between the two but why do you have to pay to live?

Whoa. Pharmecutical companies are not, in actual fact, making profits out of line with other industries, and US citizens are not, in actual fact, all (or even mostly) sick.

Why do you have pay to live? Because, ultimately, other people are using up part of their lives to allow you to live, and they'll stop doing it if they're not compensated. That's true whether it's drugs, medical care, food, water, shelter, or anything else.

If people really want to address the cost of health care in the US, I think it's a lot more relevant to talk about broader economic issues like liability and malpractice awards, Medicare forcing below-market prices that distort fees for the non-insured, and the fantastically high cost of keeping terminally ill patients alive for a few days or weeks longer than they would otherwise have.

As for the nominal thread topic, I'd rather pay a national champion and wonderful teacher like Debbie Ramsey $70/hour for WCS privates than pay some completely random off-the-street chain ballroom studio teacher $100+/hour. And fortunately, I get that choice. If other people make stupid choices, maybe they'll learn from it eventually.

pygmalion

12-18-2003, 02:57 PM

Do you know dance teachers who can afford to do those things? None of the teachers I've known have been like that, although admittedly I've only known about 20 dance teachers in my life. Most of them had to work hard to make ends meet, and I doubt any of them ate regularly at $50/plate restaurants. They did tend to take time off, though. Although I think that had more to do with the physical and emotional demands of teaching dance and the need to recuperate rather than the financial means to not need to work

Yes! Kevin. The teachers, and especially the newer teachers, are being taken advantage of , too. Some of the teachers I've know literally could not make a living teaching dance. Meanwhile their students were paying $100 to $150 an hour for instruction. What!?! It's ridiculous. The franchise system is set up to benefit the guys/gals in the management chain. Period. Everybody else, gets the short end of the stick.

True, running a studio IS expensive. But is it expensive enough to justify the exhorbitant rates people pay and the pittance the teachers are being paid? I don't think so.

salsarhythms

12-18-2003, 03:01 PM

Again, if the person is CHOOSING to stay and pay the
higher rates, it is because of a reason...

We buy on emotion, and always will.

We will justify with logic later on.

However, if that person has established a bond with a
particular instructor, then they will continue to be with
that instructor because of it.

The guy that cuts my hair charges more than a normal
barber shop...I go to him because I feel comfortable with
him...

NOT because of the lack of options, but because of my
comfort level with him.

salsarhythms

12-18-2003, 03:02 PM

I'm sorry, but what's wrong with a dance instructor
driving a Mercedes?

pygmalion

12-18-2003, 03:08 PM

Not a thing is wrong with a dance teacher having a mercedes, salsarhythms, not a thing. And that's what galls me so much. They work hard, put up with poor treatment from some students, etc. etc, and very few could afford any such thing. Doesn't seem right.

And about the emotion thing, you're right. I pay my hairdresser more money, too, and tip her extremely well, even when she sometimes makes mistakes. Because I like her, and I've know her a long time, and oevrall she provides the best service I've had.

My problem with these studios is that the emotional attachment is artificial and one sided. It's a sales technique only. These people don't care about their students, but they put up a beautiful front, in order to create the feeling of undying loyalty that many students do develop. To me, that's a slimy way to operate.

salsarhythms

12-18-2003, 03:16 PM

Ok, on that I will agree with you 100% pygmalion.

There's just no excuse for that.

If the instructor is not providing any genuine value (Note that
I did not say Perceived Value, but rather REAL GENUINE VALUE)
then it's wrong, and ultimately they'll have to pay the price.

Personally, I get heated over this topic because to many these
things are viewed as negatives, but let's face it, good people
are good people with AND without money.

The question here is, what does this student find in the
"instructor" that is manipulating him/her? Is the instructor
really manipulating the situation? Or is it that the person
simply sees something in them that they are more drawn
to?

Sagitta

12-18-2003, 03:19 PM

Again, a decision made with a lack of understanding is by no means a wise decision. All it is, is a decision.

Stealing and charging too much? I say so because I don’t see a difference between overcharging the misinformed, and taking their money from their wallet without their consent. It is about frame of mind and not action. Who places value? The owner? That isn’t the fairest of places to seek a fair deal?

It all goes back to misinformation. If we think is wrong because we know better, why should the person that knows less pay more because they happen to not be better informed?

I couldn't agree more with this. It is a question of ethics and not the "pay as much as the market can bear" capitalistic philosophy.

salsarhythms

12-18-2003, 04:22 PM

Absolutely it's a question of ethics, like I said, if the
instructor is not providing REAL value, then he is
defrauding his/her students.

pygmalion

12-18-2003, 07:29 PM

Sagitta

12-18-2003, 09:19 PM

Ok, on that I will agree with you 100% pygmalion.
Personally, I get heated over this topic because to many these
things are viewed as negatives, but let's face it, good people
are good people with AND without money.

I agree!!! It's not what you have -- it's who you are!! :) In a materialistic society people often start getting confused due to the overwhelming importance placed on "things".

Hey. There are some teachers out there who charge lots for lessons and provide a quality service. I'm just pointing out (rather heatedly, sorry) that there are also a lot of teachers out there who provide little dance value and instead exploit relationships with their emotionally vulnerable students. It happens.

That sort of cheating makes me angry too :x and you probably seen more of it as you've been dancing longer then I have!! :( :)

pygmalion

12-19-2003, 06:53 AM

DM alluded to this before, but think it bears repeating. If you attend a studio that sells a combination of private, group classes and practice parties, do the math. Don't assume that buying more is cheaper, just because you get a discount.

Scenario: You take one 45-minute lesson a week, 2 group classes and one party. You pay, say, $100 for this package. A resultant cost of $70 for the private, and $10 each for the groups.

Or, you take two lessons a week, 2 group classes and one party. You get a 5% discount, and pay only $95 x 2 =$190. An effective rate of $80 each for the private lessons, and $10 each for the groups.

The effective cost may go up as you take more lessons, so beware. Note: I'm assuming a contract. It's unusual to buy lessons individually.

KevinL

12-19-2003, 07:48 AM

However, sales is all about exchanging something (currency, money) for something that, for you, is worth more than the price.

I wish I could write as well as salsarhythms. I tried to say the same thing in one of my posts but didn't even come close to saying it this well.

Is a dance lesson worth $175/ hour to me? No. But there are a lot of people who do feel that this price is worth it.

KevinL

12-19-2003, 07:54 AM

The people running these studios stay in business because they are REALLY GOOD at manipulating emotionally vulnerable people. And as long as there are lonely widows/divorcees out there, there will be studios to take advantage of them. :x :?

My two cents.

I don't suppose you could change that to "these questionable studios", could you? There have to be some dance studios out there who run there businesses well, and for the benefit of themselves, their teachers _and the students.

I really don't have much experience, I've only been involved with one dance studio and I thougt they were well-run, and considerate of the students.

DanceMentor

12-19-2003, 07:56 AM

I really don't have much experience, I've only been involved with one dance studio and I thougt they were well-run, and considerate of the students.

And were their prices astronomical?

KevinL

12-19-2003, 08:02 AM

True, running a studio IS expensive. But is it expensive enough to justify the exhorbitant rates people pay and the pittance the teachers are being paid? I don't think so.

Without any information I will agree as well. Is it possible to justify charging $175/hour and paying the person delivering the product (the teacher) $10-15/hour? I doubt it. But I would be willing to listen to anyone who could give me the financial information to justify those numbers. Any volunteers?

KevinL

12-19-2003, 08:13 AM

The effective cost may go up as you take more lessons, so beware. Note: I'm assuming a contract. It's unusual to buy lessons individually.

Hmm, again my experience is limited, but the only independant studio I've been involved with charged separately for group classes and private lessons. If you bought blocks of private lessons they were cheaper than buying them one at a time. 1 lesson was $60, 20 was $1000, with a couple of levels between.

I work the same way, I charge separately for group lessons and private lessons. In fact, I only sell one private lesson at first, and if the people are happy with that lesson then I put that price toward the cost of a package. That way the students aren't locked into something that they aren't certain about.

Not that the students would be locked in anyway, my private lesson agreement is probably not "enforceable" as a contract, and besides that would be the absolute best way to get horribly bad word of mouth. The one person who asked for a refund got it within a couple of days.

Kevin

Mich

12-19-2003, 09:09 AM

The justify question seems to have an emotional component to it that is tough to answer.

But I appreciate all the feedback provided here on average fees and the services they include. For me that's the beginning point of deciding whether I will invest/waste my money.

At the last studio, $120 for a private lesson, with at least 2-3 group lessons and practice party seemed high but not unreasonable in that the quality of instruction was high. The studio made every effort to quickly replace the teacher if they quit or got sick. And they were flexible if I wanted to try out some tango with another instructor for a few lessons.
So there was quality control and continuity of service.

I paid $500 for six private lessons with a visiting instructor this month.
If he was late, I felt cheated. The teaching was very good. But I had to start from scratch each time since he didn't remember all of the problem areas I needed to work on.

I thought $75 for a personal trainor at the gym was expensive but I could more easily rationalize it as an investment in my health.

The dollar and time investment in dance instruction would be much easier for me to swallow if other options for ballroom dance and practice were available. In other words, if the total time I dance each month were increased then the contract costs might seem more reasonable. But as a life long hobby, I can tolerate some of the higher costs a little better.

But there is an emotional component to investment in instruction. At what price point would I say Screw this! Your classes/techer/studio aren't worth the money. I probably wouldn't take what I saved on dancing and put it into an IRA or send a check to CARE.

KevinL

12-19-2003, 09:27 AM

I really don't have much experience, I've only been involved with one dance studio and I thougt they were well-run, and considerate of the students.

And were their prices astronomical?

No. $60/hour for a 50-minute private lesson, group classes were $40 for 4 weeks, or $80 for 8 weeks. Dances were $12 if you went for the 3 30-min lessons and the dance, or $10 just for the dance. (I think, I never actualy paid for the dances.)

Those prices seem reasonable to me.

Kevin

pygmalion

12-19-2003, 09:28 AM

Hmm. I also wonder about where I'd draw the line, Mich. Let me say this, though. If the quality of instruction is high, I will pay! I would pay my current coach twice what he charges, if he asked. Don't tell him. LOL. But seriously, in an hour lesson I take with him, I make serious progress, get some work on technique, and walk away with a specific list of things to work on. Quality instruction. And, in my mind, that would justify a $100+ price tag.

Adwiz

12-19-2003, 10:05 AM

One of the lessons I've learned a long time ago is that when a business treats people with fairness and respect, there is always a long-term benefit. This is also true of dance studios, though many don't seem to realize that.

About 10 years ago a studio opened in Vancouver that revolutionized the dance studio concept across Canada. It was the largest sprung dance floor in the country (still is), and the owner, who was a 13-time consecutive regional champion, really wanted to do it right. So he threw out the rule book and structured his studio to offer packages the way they should be designed. This included free party nights following group lessons for participants, with very low entry fees for anyone else who wanted to come to the party; low-priced memberships that gave discounts and half-price group lesson repeats; affordable group lessons with no "contract" and you had up to a year to use up your package; and very affordable private lessons with some of the best instructors in the country.

The result? Not only has his studio been incredibly successful (he has taught over 4,000 people and now has about a dozen world-class instructors), but the concept has been adopted by a number of other studios. His view is that if you treat people with respect, they will make smart decisions and they do. He never pushes private lessons in his group lessons as I've seen teachers in other places do -- never even mentions them. The products he sells, such as shoes and videos, are very reasonably priced.

Too bad more studios don't get it that this works just like any other business. Same principles.

borikensalsero

12-19-2003, 10:47 AM

Trying to touch on all if I can remember without doing a million posts... except one long one… Sorry to get so off topic…

SalsaRhythms I have nothing against well made and worth product costing what it should cost. Not to sound like butt kisser but your product is worth every penny you ask of it. Can't say the same of others hence why I say the things I've said. What is wrong with a dance instructor driving a benz? Did he fool his knowledgeless students into buying $175 classes? The is driving isn’t really dependant on, how he got to drive it. There is a difference between what an Ego wants and emotions. The Ego is responsible for the I want, I want, I want, more, more, more, more, a Ferrari. But, hey, that is why there are social “castes”. The ego wants to feel superior by material means.

KevinL My brother does independent research about the FDA, Pharmaceutical companies, aside from being a rather self accomplish person on holistic medicine, his own college professors (practicing doctors, both holistic medicine and non) and doctors who he joking challenges when they open their mouth about man made medicines, are baffled when he runs through lists of what FDA doesn’t want the public to know, what the pharmaceutical companies hide, side effects, and then tops it with natural remedies of which there is 1000s of, not only patients, but research done over 1000s of years in the eastern hemisphere of which the US Gov’t says, “There is no proof that it works, or of the research”. Go figure, the US thinks because they hide it or don’t know about it, no one can know about it either. Now, after thousands of years of use by the Chinese, the FDA is saying, hold on a second, we don’t know how acupuncture works but it seems to do what they claim. We might have to invest some dough in it, not to mention that they want to send any doctor who wants, to a 100-hour course on it.

Again, no one wants to crumble a multibillion-dollar business. How would you as a big pharmaceutical company be willing to try to seek a little plant which after boiling it in water cures headaches? They know it exits, but they rather tell the public it doesn’t work. The same plant which headache pills are made from. You can buy the seed for about .02 cents each, or 2 bucks a pound and a free headache remedy. Or you can go to the store and pay 6 bucks 15 pills. Hmm, that wouldn’t be a good business practice for the pharmaceutical companies would it? That is your reason why the FDA, the Gov’t and the Pharmaceutical companies aren’t willing to invest any money into natural medicine. It isn’t because there is no research, or no proof; it is because they will loose money.

BTW. A close someone does research with AIDS patients who have gone from taking medications to taking natural products reducing their costs by $1000s a year. Yet, his insurance company rather pay the thousands a year than around $1,200 a year it costs to keep him alive, and side effect free. How happy do you think the FDA will be, when they find out what is going on? He even has a person who was dying both of symptoms and side effects caused by the billion dollar research safe medicines. He has him walking around to where his viral load is undetectable. His doctors keep telling him, this is impossible, you should be dying; you should be in your deathbed. Hmmm To which the guys laughs every time he goes to the doctor and see all of them looking like a deer caught in head lighs.

Question…. If that much money is being spent on the safeness of durgs, how come drugs keep coming off the shelves because of unknown side effects which include death? Their research seems to be lacking to me to have spend all those billions of dollars. Remember that we are in a capitalist world, a capitalist thinker will never take 10 cents when he can get 100 bucks for it. Hence, the no proof, no so called data that is there but the US claims it isn’t. Did you know that there is anit-freeze as well as degreaser in shampoo, soap, and toothpaste, when they can use the oil of a fish found in the north atlantic which has 0 side effects to the body? But hey, it costs too much for the return companies will get…

On classes…
If you feel that you are getting your money’s worth, then go ahead and feel free to pay as much as you would like.
[/b]

pygmalion

12-19-2003, 11:12 AM

Hey. There are some teachers out there who charge lots for lessons and provide a quality service. I'm just pointing out (rather heatedly, sorry) that there are also a lot of teachers out there who provide little dance value and instead exploit relationships with their emotionally vulnerable students. It happens.

I don't suppose you could change that to "these questionable studios", could you? There have to be some dance studios out there who run there businesses well, and for the benefit of themselves, their teachers _and the students.

I do try to add disclaimers, Kevin. There are both good and bad studios out there. I guess my mission, if I have one, is to get the word out so that people reading this thread won't have to figure it out the hard way for themselves, as I did. There's a lot of sliminess that goes on. A lot of good dance instruction, too. The hard part is that people with no dance experience can't always tell the difference.

KevinL

12-19-2003, 12:24 PM

I do try to add disclaimers, Kevin. There are both good and bad studios out there. I guess my mission, if I have one, is to get the word out so that people reading this thread won't have to figure it out the hard way for themselves, as I did. There's a lot of sliminess that goes on. A lot of good dance instruction, too. The hard part is that people with no dance experience can't always tell the difference.

I know that you add disclaimers to most of your posts, I've been most impressed. That particular post didn't include such a disclaimer, though, so I called you on it. No offense intended, ok?

Kevin

salsarhythms

12-19-2003, 02:06 PM

OK, a couple of things:

Boriken, thanks for the compliments, I really and truly
mean that...

KevinL, thanks for the compliment... :D I just try to convey
what I'm thinking and I'm glad you were able to understand
my point...

Adwiz mentioned something that I firmly believe. A business is
about relationships. The director of the school that he spoke of
really "got" that and so he's enjoying a lot more than just monetary
compensation.

I truly believe also that businesses that decide to model themselves
like the ones that are "shady" will ultimately come to an end.

It just doesn't fail, no matter how big they are or how well-
connected they may be.

When a business treats their clients and customers with the
utmost respect, that business will thrive...and big time. Perhaps
not so much so in monetary terms (look at me, I'm no millionaire!! :D )
but in other ways as well...

The way I do business is by using the Golden Rule...do onto others
as you'd like done onto you...

That's it, I don't have this huge business plan, or marketing plan, or
volumes of rules and regulations...I just go by the Golden Rule. If you
want information, I give it to you, if you want more of this and less of
that, I do that too, you need advice...I'm here for you. If, and only
if, after all of that you still want to take out your credit card and
make a purchase, I want it to be because of the relationship that I have
established, not because of some trick.

And even after all is said and done, and
you feel that you don't like what I have provided you with and want
your money back...go ahead and ask, I'll give it right back.

Why?

Because that's how I would want to be treated, so I do it for everyone
that I come in contact with.

For this reason I've been so vocal in this thread because I know that
there are many good, good, people out there that are really providing
an excellent service to their students. Of course, the bad apple
always spoils it for everyone, but hopefully this thread will reach
enough people so that they can understand the difference.

Sagitta

12-19-2003, 02:33 PM

I completely agree. Hopefully discussions like these will convince those with the "bad" experiences that the "rotten apples" are in minority; and warn those without much experience, as Pygmailion wishes, of how to avoid predatory dance teachers/studios!

borikensalsero

12-19-2003, 02:50 PM

SALSARHYTHMS
I must admit that I was very impressed at how well you conduct your business. Not only do you show you care, but you prove it with your actions by doing all you can to satisfy the customer. That alone, at least to me, is priceless. Keep the attitude as you have and soon we'll be reading about you on Forbes 500 list. And you'll be driving around in style :car: 8)

salsarhythms

12-19-2003, 05:11 PM

LOL from your mouth to God's ears... :D

pygmalion

12-19-2003, 05:11 PM

pygmalion

12-19-2003, 05:16 PM

I truly believe also that businesses that decide to model themselves
like the ones that are "shady" will ultimately come to an end.

It just doesn't fail, no matter how big they are or how well-
connected they may be.

When a business treats their clients and customers with the
utmost respect, that business will thrive...and big time. Perhaps
not so much so in monetary terms (look at me, I'm no millionaire!! :D )
but in other ways as well...

The way I do business is by using the Golden Rule...do onto others
as you'd like done onto you...

:notworth:

You know what I find ironic? The old studio, where I experienced deceptive, manipulative and high-pressure tactics, constantly struggles to attract and retain students/customers. And the studio management is convinced that you have to operate that way to succeed in business. (Edit: I should add, however, that they're unlikely to go out of business anytime soon. They've been in the business for decades, and are very good at what they do. And they're nice and personable people, if you can ignore the business practices.)

My new studio, where I've only experienced understated good quality and clean ethics, attracts students by word of mouth, and retains students without any pressure or excessive advertising.

Hmm.

salsarhythms

12-19-2003, 05:22 PM

The thing is that the cost of recruting "new" customers/clients
is extremely high for any business.

Succesfull business rely much more on repeat customers and
word of mouth.

When a business has to constantly spend money on aquiring
new business it's always in a catch up mode.

Eventually, you are so consumed by recruting new clients that
other important areas of the business will suffer.

pygmalion

12-20-2003, 07:18 PM

One more thing I should say, in all fairness, is that there have been several franchise and non-franchise studios in town which operated in the slimy mode described above, and the vast majority of them are now defunct. It's hard to stay in business, when you treat your customers badly.

twodance

12-25-2003, 05:12 PM

Haven't any of you l@@ked at your contracts ? The private lessons are written on one line with a $ amount after it. The groups and parties are written on a seperate line with a total # after it and 'n/c' is written after that. This stands for 'No Charge'. The students don't pay for groups and parties, they are thrown in at 'no charge'. This prevents a student from asking for a refund for unused groups and parties. Dividing the cost of lessons over the total # of units dosen't really exist.

SDsalsaguy

12-25-2003, 05:23 PM

Technically speaking this may be the case twodance but, as a practical matter, it does seem like a reasonable way to assess the overall cost/benefit analysis. I'm not saying that I think this is the best way to do things by any means, but, in and of itself, why not use this as a tool for such assessments.

pygmalion

12-25-2003, 05:25 PM

I guess the contracts/sales approaches are diferent at different studios. Meaning, yes, I've looked at my contracts and read all the fine print. Bottom line: $85 to $95 per 45 minute lesson, with privileges to attend unlimited groups classes and parties.

One of the problems I have with this is that the value of group classes was severely limited. They were usually taught by less experienced teachers, and technique and higher level patterns were deliberately withheld. I'm pretty sneaky. I look mild-mannered and I keep my mouth shut, so my former teacher spilled his guts in terms of how that studio worked. When I asked him about group-lesson-only students, he told me that they get what they deserve. They should stop being so cheap and buy some private lessons if they want to learn how to dance. :evil: What a bad guy. I guess my long-winded point is that, when trying to sell you lessons, some studios make a big deal out of the value of group lessons and parties. Just make sure you're really getting that value. *Shrug* What is your view? Is your studio different? I bet it is. :? 8)

DanceMentor

12-25-2003, 05:28 PM

Contracts are fine when they are short in duration or have an easy way to opt out (such as "I just want to stop taking lessons").

A studio should have to earn the loyalty of the student on a continuing basis. If the student is not happy with the studio, they should be able to leave with no questions asked.

Maybe if the student is making payments on a monthly basis, it might be justified to require the student to give thirty days notice.

pygmalion

12-25-2003, 05:35 PM

I believe I said this in another thread, so please pardon the redundancy. My former studio strongly encouraged the purchase of large dance programs -- 50 to 100 lessons at a time, and depreciated them rapidly. So if you chose to leave the studio for any reason, you were out of luck within a few days of signing the contract.

KevinL

12-26-2003, 07:42 AM

When I asked him about group-lesson-only students, he told me that they get what they deserve. They should stop being so cheap and buy some private lessons if they want to learn how to dance. What a bad guy.

I agree that that person is a bad guy. Most people are not interested or cannot afford private lessons, so sticking them with poor quality instruction in group classes is a good way to discourage them. How about giving quality private lessons and getting the new people excited enough about dancing that they do want to take private lessons?

I believe I said this in another thread, so please pardon the redundancy. My former studio strongly encouraged the purchase of large dance programs -- 50 to 100 lessons at a time, and depreciated them rapidly. So if you chose to leave the studio for any reason, you were out of luck within a few days of signing the contract.

OK, so I'm not a studio, but I do teach classes and private lessons. I make it a point, though, not to sell a block the first time. Try one lesson or group class first, then decide if you want to take advantage of volume discounts.

I guess I was lucky that my first (only) ballroom experience was so positive, the instruction was great, the teachers well trained, and compared to national averages everything was cheap!

Kevin

pygmalion

12-26-2003, 07:46 AM

I knew I'd forgotten to post something in this thread. Disclaimer: this is how ONE studio operates. Others likely differ.

My former studio actually had a formula which factored in private and group lessons and parties, so when they quoted you a price, those things were included. The things you learn by having nosey, gossipy friends. When approached to buy lessons once, salesman friend questioned the high cost and finally the studio management showed him the equation they were using. And of course he told me! :twisted: :lol:

SDsalsaguy

12-26-2003, 12:18 PM

I guess I was lucky that my first (only) ballroom experience was so positive, the instruction was great, the teachers well trained, and compared to national averages everything was cheap!

Metronome really does things right Kevin, both under Dianne and then under Bram when she sold it to him. I wish I lived closer! :?

tsb

01-02-2004, 09:07 AM

pygmalion

01-02-2004, 09:12 AM

Hmm. I'm trying to tie the pharmaceutical thing back to dance lessons, and it's a slight stretch, but I think I've got it! 8)

The R&D cost looks to me a lot like studio overhead -- the cost of insurance, teacher training, utilities, etc. Somehow, these things must be paid. They're paid by students.

I guess the question, for both pharmaceutical companies and dance studios, is whether that overhead charge is reasonable and fair or exhorbitant.

Why, for example, can you buy brand name drugs from Canada at a fraction of the price you pay in the U.S.? Both have similar research costs. Similarly, why can you buy dance lessons from an independent studio for a fraction of what you pay at a franchise? Do they not have similar overhead costs? If not, are they so different as to justify the prices people pay?

SDsalsaguy

01-02-2004, 09:15 AM

And, to add to Jenn's points, if we really are using R&D as a model, what new dances and/or dance techniques are we getting out of such a system...

If anything we are subsidizing our teachers own instruction, nothing more really.

DancingMommy

01-03-2004, 02:17 PM

I used to sell programs that were very expensive, and I didn't like it at all. As a matter of fact, I got my bosses fired, took over the management of the studio, and lowered the prices. In some cases, I even gave some of the existing students additional private lesson credits.

The program we sold was $115 per unit which consisted of 1 40 minute private lesson, 1 40 minute group lesson and 1 40 minute practice party. Every time we sold a program, I got the feeling the managers were really "laying it on thick". Part of the formula was to find some emotional instability in the students life, show a deep concern, and make a promise to help them (implied) through dancing.

Are there some cases where such a rate is justified?

ICK! I remember those days well......... Blech. BTW - you know we were more pricey than the local AMI.... By about $10... How'd *that* happen?

The studio I worked for down here was charging $85 for the same deal. At that point I thought it was cheap... turned out it was just the difference in cost of living... :(

Genesius Redux

04-10-2004, 09:40 PM

Another very informative thread to revive! Do you have any idea how many people wish that a forum like this one existed before they started dancing?

pygmalion

04-10-2004, 09:46 PM

I know I wish I had seen such thread. Hence my, uh..., forthrightness. LOL. :oops: :lol: 8)

Blondie

04-10-2004, 10:06 PM

pygmalion

04-11-2004, 05:24 PM

And the unsuspecting students are paying top dollar. Hmm. :roll: :x

Genesius Redux

04-11-2004, 05:42 PM

And most of the money going to management--with $10-$15 left to pay the salary for your instructor. Dang straight.

Here's what you do--some weasel schmuck pitches a $6K package at you, if you can invest that kind of dough in dancing, go straight to an independent studio, or an independent instructor, tell them you've got $500 per month to blow on dancing and see what kind of a deal they can get you for your money. What do you bet you can get 10 private lessons a month for a year, and with an experienced instructor, too?

johnnywalker

04-11-2004, 06:24 PM

Reading through this thread brought back some good and some bad memories. The good memories were the people I met and am still friends with today. The bad memory is the cost of having attended the studio in which I met these wonderful students. I too was paying a large sum (approx $85.00 AUD) for a lesson lasting only 45 minutes duration; of which 5 minutes was goingthrough the lesson plan, 5 minutes, approx, having my instructor assist another instructor to demonstrate a step for another student and a further 5 minutes going through the lesson plan at the end. I only persisted, as did many other students, due to the great people there and the social atmosphere. Only some of the instructors had 'reasonable' credentials; That is, they had other dance experience unlike some who were put on a three month training course within the school. Mind you, they were probably only a few lessons ahead of their students. Also, the owner of this franchised school would not speak to me after he found out I did not wish to continue tuition. I decided then that he was superficial and would not ever entertain the thought of returning. Ultimately, we found other schools and styles. I now attend a school where the instructors have international competition experience. Not only that, they, more importantly, are able to teach (good dancers don't necessarily make good teachers) and I pay a lesser amount to have an hour private lesson.

Sagitta

04-11-2004, 08:22 PM

Too bad you suffered JW!! Great to here that you are in a good situation now. I've been fairly lucky so far, and with df here to keep me on the straight and narrow I'm a happy camper! :D

Spoeaking of world class instructors Bill Borgida is offering another series of swing (Jitterbug / lindy) classes in Ithaca!! See what you are missing ND?!! I think soemthing like 50 dollars for a 4 week class of 1 hour sessions once a week. Actually three different classes. Eminently reasonable.

Adwiz

04-11-2004, 09:10 PM

I've never run a dance studio, or even helped market one, but I have spent more than 25 years turning all kinds of businesses into success stories, sometimes spectacular ones. And one of the things I've learned is that when a business treats people fairly and values them as human beings they respond. Of course, it's not always that simple. Great businesses sometimes fail because of bad systems, or bad marketing, or because of external conditions that change (like 9/11 for example), but in general that rule always applies.

I think it also applies to dance studios and I've seen it at work in my city. Studios that charge fair prices and provide services that relate directly to what their customers want rather than trying to force them into pre-conceived patterns of behavior are invariably more successful than the manipulative system-based franchise studios.

Two of my studios have excellent pricing structures that have made them very successful. Inexpensive beginner programs with an unlimited option to repeat them for half price, and half-price coupons that even give existing customers credits when they are redeemed are hugely successful at getting people in the door. Both studios offer private lessons in ranges from US$40/hour all the way up to US$75/45-minutes, depending on the experience level and reputation of the instructor. One even offers first-time customers a chance to take three privates in a package deal for just US$75 total, a wonderful way to get them to discover the power of private lessons. Group lessons are not tied into "proprietary" programs but are a la carte for each level with the opportunity to take them anytime within a year. Practice fees at both studios are a mere $1 per day for members, or $2 per day for non-members. Memberships are available for a small fee that give you discounts on lessons and merchandise like shoes.

These marketing approaches have proven to be transferrable to any business, and they work equally well in the dance studio world. I believe the high-pressure, high-fee forced system approach to dancing has hurt the entire industry and it is time studios adapt to changes in the real world. With increasing ability to call the shots and customize their purchases, customers want ever more control over the cost structure of anything they buy. When dance studios recognize that, they blossom.

twodance

04-11-2004, 09:34 PM

dTas

04-12-2004, 12:59 PM

wow there's just so much to say on this topic (as you can tell by all the posts)

the best advice i can give is... shop around!!

do not sign-up with the first studio you come to. get all your prices on a per private hour basis. group classes are cheap and offered all over the place. there are always places to dance (other studios, bars, parties)... but the private lessons are where you get the best information.

i still don't know how people can justify 100+ for a regular private lesson to just learn more patterns as beginning lessons often do.

there should be a dance consultation, just like college, to help new students best learn. but of course studios would consult students to BUY BUY BUY!

i think beginning students should take group classes for a while to learn a few patterns and then take occasional privates to help with those patterns. then after 10+ group classes (and 20+ practice) privates would be most usefull.

i pay $100+ for coaching every 6 months and practice 4-5 hrs a week. as well as teach (independant). practice makes perfect! but not just mindless practice... you have to think while you're practicing. UNDERSTAND YOUR DANCING!

Sagitta

04-12-2004, 10:47 PM

Very true dTas!! I've been guilty of just practicing rather then thinking about my dancing, understanding my dancing. :oops: I'm improving though. :)

Kitty

04-14-2004, 01:16 PM

Yes, but the difference between brand name pharmaceuticals and generic drugs are that the producers of the generic drugs don't have to spend the time, effort and money to discover a new drug and then prove that it is safe and effective.
Kevin

There really isn't such a thing as a mircle drug. The beleif the world has is that they can do whatever they want with their bodies then take one pill and take care of what ever destruction they've done to the body.

Do we really think that Pharmaceutical companies need around 10 years to make profit out of a new drug? If that was the case would capitalist US allow, at any cost, for that 10 year number to be lowered to 2. If the case was that it took so long to make their money back, would they be profitable organizations?

Drug companies are the only companies who never went through a recession. Do we really think that they aren't making any money, despite the 10s of billions spent in research? Just like they only show the public the positive performances their drugs have, the same they do when they speak of money. No, they are safe, if is the case how come people keep dying because of side effects to drugs?

Go design your own drug and then speak! :x You think it is easy? Hundreds of substances get tested and only one or two will have an effect on the disease, then you test them on toxicity - very few substances pass, then trials that have 4 phases, each lasts for over a year and has to include thousands of patients. To pass, a drug has to be proven to be better than an already existing analog, so don't worry they are selling only the best available to you. As to side effects - they are often unpredictable, or, as with most cancer drugs and antibiotics, the risk to die from cancer or infection is much higher than the risk of side effects.

Seriously, you won't understand until you know limitations of pharmaceuticals: you can't just put anything i a body that will eliminate the disease, because it will most probably kill you too... And all that clinical trials are so long and expensive that hundreds of small biotech companies go bankrupt each year, not finishing the trials that they spent 5 years on.

As for natural substances - all pharmaceuticals are natural substances. Tiny pieces of DNA that are supposed to bind to pieces of RNA and DNA in cancer cells and stop them from propagating also kill your skin, hair and epithelial lining since all those cells constantly propagate also. Antibiotics are natural substances used by some organisms to fight off bacteria. They do distinguish between bacterial and animal cells, however, many processes targeted in bacteria are the same processes in humans so they would inevitably have some side effects.

What you reffered to as "Natural substance" is probably and unprocessed leaves and dried flowers and stuff. Those are not considered pharmaceuticals in the US and therefore don't have to go through clinical trials -> therefore have a lot of side effects, but little effect on disease. They often cause bad allergies. Consider: adding some DNA or hormones to your blood (you organism doesn't get upset since this stuff is normal for blood) , or make you eat pollen and other things of questionable effect, that have't even been tested?

My advice to everyone: avoid stuff that says "dietary supplement" ("natural drugs") - this stuff hasn't been tested for side effects, doesn't have to have proven effect, and there are no standards that regulate its purity. Bad side effects from such things have been reported in past few years.

Neil

04-14-2004, 07:31 PM

I see people are very quick to judge expensive studios harshly. Obviously, the students find that the services they receive are worth the cost, otherwise they wouldn't keep returning. Some people are willing to pay a lot more money for good service. That "service" might mean getting friendly phone calls every day, get well card when sick, flowers for Mother's Day, candy on Valentine's Day, etc.

The real sleazy operations are the ones that use high pressure sales tactics to push weak people into buying long-term contracts they don't want, then failing to service them properly. I don't think that strategy works in the long run. I'm not sure, but I think it's illegal in Florida now to sell long term contracts for dance classes.

Are there really huge profits to be made by hiring teachers for $10-15/hour and charging $175 for the classes? If there were, then plenty of people would go into that business and make a killing. The extra competition would drive down prices. The thing is that I've seen people run studios and it really isn't that easy. Running the studio well enough to make a good living takes the kind of hard work and skills that would make the manager successful in almost any other business too.

This is basic economics. Some studios concentrate on volume, others on service. They are both legitimate to me. That's why one studio will charge less than another.

Kevin said, "...In this area, attorneys charge $60-100/hour..." Where is that? Here in Miami, a good bookkeeper, personal trainer, massage therapist, or mechanic charges that much. Accountants charge $100-300/hour. Lawyers charge way more.

The bottom line is that if you think $175 is too much for a lesson, don't pay it. Shop around. On the other hand, don't assume that all expensive studios are a rip-off, they just might be selling something you aren't interested in buying. It's like the difference between a $5 hamburger and a $20 hamburger isn't so much the food, it's the service.

pygmalion

04-14-2004, 07:45 PM

I can agree with most of what you're saying here, if I can add a small qualifying statement about the definition of quality or the definition of service.

To me, a dance studio is not serving its purpose if the teachers are sweet, kind, send me birthday cards, and can't teach me how to dance excellently.

I think you're right. There are a lot of people out there who hold the opposite view. To them, fun, friendliness, and a social outlet are worth the $100 to $150 a lesson they pay.

To each his own.

Like you, the problems I have are with high pressure tactics and with deceptive sales practices.

Neil

04-14-2004, 08:14 PM

...I think you're right. There are a lot of people out there who hold the opposite view. To them, fun, friendliness, and a social outlet are worth the $100 to $150 a lesson they pay....

Yes, maybe you would see their side if you were 60 years old, wealthy, married to a workaholic, mother to kids who never call anymore, and were too shy to meet new friends. Attractive, young, women are used to getting plenty of attention and it seems ridiculous to them to pay for it. I wish it were the same for everybody, but it isn't. Sad, but true. I'm just glad that we live in a country free enough that people have options.

By the way, sometimes men are in a similar situation, but their solution is to go to a strip club where they get attention from attractive women. That's why they are happy to pay $20 for a shot of cheap vodka.

Sagitta

04-14-2004, 08:20 PM

...I think you're right. There are a lot of people out there who hold the opposite view. To them, fun, friendliness, and a social outlet are worth the $100 to $150 a lesson they pay....

By the way, sometimes men are in a similar situation, but their solution is to go to a strip club where they get attention from attractive women. That's why they are happy to pay $20 for a shot of cheap vodka.

Perhaps that's why we have dancing? N'est pas? :wink: :)

Larinda McRaven

04-14-2004, 09:47 PM

Oui.

And Neil...I totally agree with you. I see LOTS of different teachers and studios every week all around the country. And I have come to the conclusion that "There is a market for everybody" or as someone said to me today "A butt for every seat" Whatever a teacher has to offer, someone will buy it and think that it a great deal and be happy. Who are we to judge what the teacher thinks their time/attention/information is worth, or what some other student is will to pay for something that makes them happy.

What I say next I completely and whole-heartedly believe. I try to instill this understanding in every young teacher that I meet, that ends up asking me for guidance and help finding their place in this industry.
"What do you really think your job is?" I ask them.
1 Some say "I am a dancer!" I know that that person is in for a hard time. They probably were NOT hired by the studio to dance, even if they are great dancers.
2 Some of the say "I am a dance teacher" Close, but no cigar. They are not getting paid to teach great lessons. At the end of the week their paycheck is not dependant on how much they taught their students or what the students have learned, there is no test that says "your students learned this much information, therefore we will pay you this much money."
3 No one ever answers my question with saying "I am a sales agent" or "I am here to make my students happy" but ultimately that is what they get paid for...did the student feel they got their moneys worth and are they willing to pay to come back? When the answer is yes, then the owner can pay the teacher for the hours taught and sold.

Therefore you have to understand what your student is there for. If the student is totally there to learn about dancing then the teacher better be able to provide that service. But these students are far and few between. MOST students really are there for other things, excercise, social interaction, impress someone, escape... And if a teacher can provide these things, then the lesson is worth whatever the student is willing to pay to get what they want. Regardless of how good a teacher can actually teach dancing.

Some people make a great living giving students whatever they want, usually fun. Some teachers, usually the more advanced seasoned ones, can make a living weeding out the "fun students" and focusing on the more "dance oriented students". But either way, if someone gets what they want, then the price is no objection.

I have a cheap car. I could go out and buy a 30k car if I really wanted. That is not too much for a car salesman to ask. But I really don't want heated leather seats, that does not appeal to me, I would rather spend that money on something else, but my next door neighbor LOVES her expensive car and thinks she got a great deal on it. We both "bought a car" but we have different preferences, different priorites. We both "bought a car", but I payed for a mode of transportation, she payed for prestige. And we both got exactly what we wanted.

Larinda McRaven

04-14-2004, 11:18 PM

Two more thoughts as I went back to reread the whole thread.

I think it all gets back to this: The ownership is designing the program to get money first, and teach the students second.

Money is what keeps the studio doors open and the lights on. It has to come first.

And who is manipulating and taking advantage of who (or whom? I don't know the difference) Do you really think a teacher really wants to spend the day getting toes stepped on by a bumbeling student, or really wants to hold up heavy students all day who complain nonstop about their arthritis and and their work problems, all with bad breath. But in the end the teacher is working for a paycheck. It is work, afterall. I was at a competition with a student recently. At lunch right at our table he got into a fight on his cellphone with an employee back home. Pretty much ruined everyones lunch. He turned to me as we were walking out and said "Sorry Larinda, I didn't mean to ruin your vacation." He doesn't get it that this is my job, I am not on vacation, I am working. Just because I have a great job that I enjoy and is lots of fun doesn't make it less of an occupation for me. And I don't deserve to be paid less just because everyone else thinks my job is all daisy and roses.

Teachers often jump through hoops to make students happy. I have a student that manipulates me endlessly. I ask him to join in an activity and he says no. Then he sulks because he missed out on some fun. Next time I invite him to join an activity I know the outcome will be bad unless I literally beg him to join. And he milks it every time. I know he wants to join in, but he loves the merry-go-round of chaos he creates as I try to keep him happy. So the emotional maniplation can be a two-way street.

etchuck

04-14-2004, 11:29 PM

I have a student that manipulates me endlessly. I ask him to join in an activity and he says no. Then he sulks because he missed out on some fun. Next time I invite him to join an activity I know the outcome will be bad unless I literally beg him to join. And he milks it every time. I know he wants to join in, but he loves the merry-go-round of chaos he creates as I try to keep him happy. So the emotional maniplation can be a two-way street.

Interesting...

Of course I am not an expert in this situation, but this is just my own opinion that I'm venting.

While I'm visiting friends today in the DC area, I am reminded of what one person told me in that she really believes that people should take more responsibility and property of their own choices. If he sulks because he missed out on a fun activity, it's his choice and decision. Yes, as a teacher you want him to do what you instruct, but if he doesn't want to practice his steps, it's not your job to hold his hand as he cries on your shoulder on wanting to relearn the steps. After a while, if you feel you're being emotionally manipulated, you have the decision to find a way to change the rules of that game or quit (in my opinion).

Larinda McRaven

04-14-2004, 11:47 PM

After a while, if you feel you're being emotionally manipulated, you have the decision to find a way to change the rules of that game or quit (in my opinion).

well understood, etchuck. And the same can be said to the students that complain that they are overcharged or manipulated. If you are unhappy you have the opportunity to leave. Ultimately I am not really complaining. Simply making a point that clients often call the shots.

In reality this student is a wonderful student, has been with me for a really long time. He knows I enjoy him as a student and am proud to compete with him. He also knows I will jump when he calls because he has paid me a lot over the years and I want to keep him as a student. We have, over the years, grown rather comfortable in our "duel of wills" we both know the game and play it because in the end we both get what we want. It did take me a long time to come to this realization though.

Neil

04-15-2004, 12:05 AM

It's been ten years since I stopped spending a lot of time at the ballroom studios, but I remember those high maintenance students. That's kind of what I meant when I talked about service. Some students require a lot of personal attention. They will count how many dances each lady gets at the party and then complain for hours if somebody got one more dance. They find something to complain about every day and it's probably because they're lonely and that's the only way they know how to connect with people. They don't need the greatest dancer for a teacher, just somebody who is willing to spend lots of time with them. They'll pay $150/hour for the lesson, but they wont pay $50/hour for the lesson plus another $50/hour for all the attention they want between lessons.

SDsalsaguy

04-15-2004, 01:02 AM

Great posts Larinda (especially this one (http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?p=41993#41993))!

virginiadancegirl

04-15-2004, 10:25 AM

As I begin to venture into this world...I can certainly see some very prominent points. Larinda...I value many of your views and thank you for expressing them so that your humble understudies can learn ever so much! At this point, I have come to realize that there are some teachers who attract students based on their charisma and not their talent or ability. There is nothing you can do to awaken those students to the fact. Let them spend their money how they see fit.......

Sorry...had to throw in my 2 cents somewhere!!

pygmalion

04-15-2004, 11:20 AM

But in the end the teacher is working for a paycheck. It is work, afterall. I was at a competition with a student recently. At lunch right at our table he got into a fight on his cellphone with an employee back home. Pretty much ruined everyones lunch. He turned to me as we were walking out and said "Sorry Larinda, I didn't mean to ruin your vacation." He doesn't get it that this is my job, I am not on vacation, I am working. Just because I have a great job that I enjoy and is lots of fun doesn't make it less of an occupation for me. And I don't deserve to be paid less just because everyone else thinks my job is all daisy and roses.

Teachers often jump through hoops to make students happy. I have a student that manipulates me endlessly. I ask him to join in an activity and he says no. Then he sulks because he missed out on some fun. Next time I invite him to join an activity I know the outcome will be bad unless I literally beg him to join. And he milks it every time. I know he wants to join in, but he loves the merry-go-round of chaos he creates as I try to keep him happy. So the emotional maniplation can be a two-way street.

Yes! Obviously I'm not a dance teacher. But, at the franchise studio I formerly attended, I was the most beloved student. For a couple reasons. Number one is that I was spending $15 - $20K a year there. That engenders a lot of good feelings. LOL. But the other reason is that, as a student, I tried to treat my teachers with respect and supportiveness. They are people, and dancing with students is their JOB! Sometimes, teachers have bad days. Arguments with their SO's. Tests to take at school, or presentations to make at their day job. On and on.

Yet many dance students are so self-centered as to think that teaching dance is always fun for the teacher. It can be fun sometimes, even often. But it's always work.