Homosexual Dancers [Archive]

DanceMentor

12-18-2003, 12:12 PM

This may be a controversial topic, but I think we can handle it in a reasonable manner.

How do you feel about gay dancers?
Are you comfortable dancing with the same sex if they are gay?
Do you think it is OK for gay couples to dance at public dances and even show affection for each other?

For me, some of my very first instruction was from a couple of different gay men, and I feel they gave me some excellent coaching, not to mention, they danced the woman's part very well! :D I'm still very good friends with one of these instructors to this day after over 10 years.

There were a couple of times when they "came on" to me, and I didn't really appreciate it. But once we set the boundaries, everything was fine.

I've also participated in some group classes that were exclusively gay (except me of course), and we all had a great time.

There was one thing that I thought was a little weird, but maybe you will think otherwise. There is a lady who is a cross dresser who comes to the public dances. She dresses like a man and then goes around asking all the ladies to dance. Usually the ladies don't even realize she is also a woman.

I find it a little funny the way straight guys (like me) always have to make it known that they are not gay (like me) before talking about accepting gay people. :lol:

foursquare

12-18-2003, 12:28 PM

Sagitta

12-18-2003, 12:38 PM

First, I've actually seen more women dancing with women, rather then men dancing with men, gay or not!! I have no issues with gay people dancing together in public.

As for dancing with a gay guy my main hesitation would be the "coming on" aspect. However, if a gay guy wants to dance with me and he asks me to be a follow I probably would jump at the chance without a second thought as I am always looking for such opportunities!! :)

Vince A

12-18-2003, 12:40 PM

This may be a controversial topic, but I think we can handle it in a reasonable manner.
It could be, but shouldn't be touchy!

How do you feel about gay dancers?
I don't give it a second thought . . .

Are you comfortable dancing with the same sex if they are gay?
I have danced with gay men (and women), and since I am secure in my own sexuality, I am just fine with it!

Do you think it is OK for gay couples to dance at public dances and even show affection for each other?
I don't have a problem with anyone showing affection for each other . . . unless it gets out of hand and they need to go get a hotel room . . . then I might suggest that to them . . . straight or gay!

For me, some of my very first instruction was from a couple of different gay men, and I feel they gave me some excellent coaching, not to mention, they danced the woman's part very well! :D I'm still very good friends with one of these instructors to this day after over 10 years.
Me too - re: the istruction with a gay man - and the subject of sex (gay or straight) never came up.

There were a couple of times when they "came on" to me, and I didn't really appreciate it. But once we set the boundaries, everything was fine.

I've also participated in some group classes that were exclusively gay (except me of course), and we all had a great time.
If you (we) don't make it an issue a gay man or woman won't either!

There was one thing that I thought was a little weird, but maybe you will think otherwise. There is a lady who is a cross dresser who comes to the public dances. She dresses like a man and then goes around asking all the ladies to dance. Usually the ladies don't even realize she is also a woman.
We saw a T/S last year at a dance, and she (he) was better looking than most of the women at the dance . . . I certainly looked more than once. Curiosity???? Let's hope so . . . :wink:

I find it a little funny the way straight guys (like me) always have to make it known that they are not gay (like me) before talking about accepting gay people. :lol:
And why is that???

foursquare

12-18-2003, 12:44 PM

Sagitta

12-18-2003, 12:56 PM

As for dancing with a gay guy my main hesitation would be the "coming on" aspect.

What about you chicks dancing with straight guys? Do you hesitate because of a possible "coming on" aspect? (I'm making a point here: no one would be dancing with anyone if everyone was worried that everyone else was not there to dance but to score.)

foursquare

Actually I've avoided a few "chicks" when I think that there is a one-way attraction!!! [I'm being sarcastic!!] It's all this thinking!! When I am out dancing I just dance. That's what I'm there for, and when I pick someone to dance I'm not thinking I'm attracted to a "chick" or perhaps she is attracted to me! If there aren't enough females I start eyeing the guys!! A few times I've asked and been rejected as people are not comfortable with their sexuality. :( I can't stand going to dance and not dancing!!

DanceMentor

12-18-2003, 01:05 PM

I find it a little funny the way straight guys (like me) always have to make it known that they are not gay (like me) before talking about accepting gay people. :lol:
And why is that???[/quote]

Well, if I try to defend my position, I may appear insecure. :lol:

Now as far as coming on to you... you've never done that to a chick who you were interested in? How else would you know if they're interested in you unless you came on a little? And you figure, if you're straight, you at least have a fighting chance at picking out the opposite sex. If you're gay, and the person you're interested in is not wearing a pin or a t-shirt or something that states what team they're playing for, then you have to test the waters, so to speak, because you're kind of working blind.

Excellent point. I never really thought about it that way.

SwinginBoo

12-18-2003, 01:15 PM

d nice

12-18-2003, 01:54 PM

I'm not sure I even notice anymore... I'm not sure I ever did. When I dance I dance, if the music says flirt I flirt, whether it is a strait guy, gay guy, gay woman, straight woman, and their own attractiveness doesn't come into play...

Unless they take it off the dance floor, then I tone it done with them next time.

I don't find an unattractive person coming on to me as being a problem, it is a compliment, regardless of whether or not they match my own sexual orientation. I thank them let them know I'm not really interested, and go on from there.

KevinL

12-18-2003, 02:07 PM

What an interesting topic. My personal feelings are: People are people. I wouldn't want to go to a dance and see a couple passionately making out and groping each other in the booth next to me; that goes straight or gay. Affection? Holding hands? A kiss after a dance? A kiss in the booth that just says "I love you." Sure, bring it on. If you feel affection and are in love, expressing that affection is normal and shouldn't be make a couple feel uncomfortable while expressing it.

foursquare has it going on, and I agree with all of it. I don't care if people are gay, straight, or ambiguous, I'll ask everyone to dance.

Part of my experience was that I started dancing (a lot, anyway) in the San Francisco Lindy scene, and all the good dancers there do both roles. Then I started my teacher training, and we had to learn both sides. More importantly, we could take all the group classes we wanted, as long as we balanced the class, so I got even more experience dancing both roles.

I've only had one uncomfortable experience with a gay male, and that was because he was drunk, and wasn't following proper etiquette. He wouldn't let me leave, and kept asking for dance after dance! Since then I've made sure never to do that with women, since I was once on the recieving end. (Actually, I had never asked someone to dance multiple times in a row beforehand, either.)

After I moved to Vermont I noticed that the women in the local Lindy scene would often dance with other women, but guys would almost never dance with other guys. So I started asking the guys to dance and it broke open the floodgates. A couple of different people have mentioned that they are glad I started dancing with guys because it's opened doors for lots of other people to do the same thing. It still hurts to be rejected, though, 8^(.

There is one young gay guy who dances with the local USABDA chapter, and I can always depend on him to dance with me. I was actually the first man he'd ever danced with in public! It's always a challange for me to practice following enough to be remotely competent, so it's good that he comes to those dances. There are also a couple of other guys that I dance with regularly, but they usually make me lead. One time I was dancing with one of them, and I heard a woman's voice from the background "Why are there two guys dancing?" Out of context I'm not certain what she meant, but I was disappointed that I heard it. Another time I was dancing with another male teacher, and he stopped halfway through the song, "We'd better stop before someone shoots us." That was disappointing to hear as well.

What do I care if someone is straight, or gay? I'm not going home with any of them anyway, so why would I worry about dancing with guys? Lesbians are great because they often know how to lead, and nobody minds if we dance together, even if I am doing the follower part.

Kevin

jon

12-18-2003, 02:35 PM

On a related topic, I do feel some discomfort about a certain woman in the ballroom dance scene who (a) seems to be coming on to me a bit and (b) seems very likely to be transexual (female friends have independently noted this so it's not just my imagination). I wouldn't care about (b) were it not for (a), but I'm not so modern as to be completely comfortable with this scenario.

Not that it is really all that different from being pursued by someone with XX chromosomes whom I have absolutely no interest in, but the added ambiguity makes for a certain added discomfort level.

lindy jihad

12-18-2003, 03:08 PM

*gasp* what next? gay dancers with tattoos?! nooo

Do you think it is OK for gay couples to dance at public dances and even show affection for each other?
i dont think its ok for ANY couple to show affection in public.
it makes me want to vomit.

but really, why wouldnt it be ok if they danced at our public dances?

borikensalsero

12-18-2003, 03:16 PM

I've been around gay folks all my life so I don't really see any issue on it besides having to attempt to explain to the few phobes why I don't mind being hit on gay men, or flirt with them. I am sure of who I am as well as my sexuality.

Last night I saw two hetero males bust out in the best dance of the night at the club. The follower happend to do a way better Job than any of the girls in the place. I couldn't belive it.

But, hey, you wanna kiss, you wanna dance, go ahead, be as happy as you want to be...

salsarhythms

12-18-2003, 04:28 PM

Jon, I see where you're coming from...

So would you say you feel this way not because of
the fact that she may be T/G, but because of the
mystery surrounding it? Like you're being deceived?

jon

12-18-2003, 04:32 PM

So would you say you feel this way not because of the fact that she may be T/G, but because of the mystery surrounding it? Like you're being deceived?

That sounds about right.

salsarhythms

12-18-2003, 04:40 PM

Yeah to me that's completely different...

I mean, it's one thing to be tolerant, but it's a whole
different story when you feel that you are bein tricked
or deceived in any way...

I would feel uncomfortable in this situation as well...

NeoDevin

12-18-2003, 05:10 PM

I have lots of gay/bisexual friends, so it doesn't bother me at all. I go with my friends to gay bars/clubs sometimes, so I've seen it all. There are 4 guys in my dance class who can follow as well, and 2 of them are better than most of the girls at it. I've dance with them, though they're straight, noone is uncomfortable. Even at the clubs dancing I've danced with gay guys (I'm such a tease). So in answer to the questions, no I don't have a problem dancing with gay men, I'm used to being hit on, so that doesn't bother me, and shows of affection that you get at the clubs are way worse than any you might get at a dance, so those don't bother me either.

2leftfeet

12-18-2003, 05:23 PM

How do you feel about gay dancers?

Good question/topic. I feel they are all better dancers than us heterosexuals. I know that sounds like a joke, but to be perfectly honest, I do. Truthfully, I believe that dancing is sort of a "gay" thing. But I don't want to say that in a derrogatory manner. I really mean that it is a graceful thing, and I think women and gay men are more naturally graceful than heterosexual men. I'm probably just a victim of society and media, I don't know. But I just associate those really good dancers that you see supporting the stars like Britney Spears and Madonna as being gay. I am mainly talking about the solo dancers. Sorry, please don't bash me. It isn't my "fault". I think anything that you believe without knowing why or being able to justify it, you've simply learned from upbringing, or society, things like that- things out of your control.

Hell, I wish I were more graceful. I don't know how to dance, and sometimes I use the "I'm a guy" comment as a defense. Stupid, huh?

Are you comfortable dancing with the same sex if they are gay?
Do you think it is OK for gay couples to dance at public dances and even show affection for each other?

Maybe I am just a regular idiot guy, but I think it is okay for 2 gay men to dance with each other, even show affection in public. I have no problem with that. Nor with 2 women. And no, I don't get "turned on" when I see two girls dance with each other. I think it's cool that they "can do that", while I feel two hetero men doing that is just, I don't know, not right. Again, don't know why. Society says so.

For me, some of my very first instruction was from a couple of different gay men, and I feel they gave me some excellent coaching, not to mention, they danced the woman's part very well! :D I'm still very good friends with one of these instructors to this day after over 10 years.

There were a couple of times when they "came on" to me, and I didn't really appreciate it. But once we set the boundaries, everything was fine.

I studied in Bogota, Colombia of all places for a semester, and my host brother taught me this figure-8 move for some dance, MANY years ago. He was gay, but didn't come out until recently. I don't feel uncomfortable dancing with an instructor who is gay. That's his job. But I agree about setting the boundaries. However, this goes with guys and girls, too. I appreciate it when I go to talk to a girl, and she says she has a boyfriend. I can get the most out of the conversation that way. I don't continue to hit on her. I ask her advice-oriented questions, like where and how they met, things like that, to gain from the situation.

I've also participated in some group classes that were exclusively gay (except me of course), and we all had a great time.

There was one thing that I thought was a little weird, but maybe you will think otherwise. There is a lady who is a cross dresser who comes to the public dances. She dresses like a man and then goes around asking all the ladies to dance. Usually the ladies don't even realize she is also a woman.

Gay men seem to be appreciative of the fact that if you aren't gay, you aren't gay, so no bother trying. I rarely feel threatened by gay men. As far as the lady goes, that's false advertising. She should be as true to the ladies she asks to dance as she is to herself about her sexual orientation. That's just my opinion.

I find it a little funny the way straight guys (like me) always have to make it known that they are not gay (like me) before talking about accepting gay people. :lol:

I do to. I do the same thing. I think it is because gays are still in the minority. So you don't see them jumping up and yelling "First off, I'm gay!". I think there is still some societal taboo toward being gay, though it is going away. And for the same reason, heteros who aren't on the "wrong side" of this taboo, are LIKELY to let people know they are straight.

Interesting.

Have a good weekend!

pygmalion

12-18-2003, 07:55 PM

Just out of curiosity, what is your experience with gay versus straight dance studio staff?

Meaning, at my first dance studio, almost all the male dance teachers were gay. The management actually preferred to hire gay men, maybe because of the fraternization issue. :?: Until I moved on, I didn't realize that there are a lot of straight men who dance and/or teach ballroom dance.

Has anybody else seen something like that? A prefernce for gay males as teachers? Or was my studio just weird?

pygmalion

12-18-2003, 08:01 PM

Oh yeah, and I guess I should stay somewhere near on-topic. If my first dance teachers hadn't been gay, I doubt I would have continued dancing. The physical intimacy of dancing was a lot more comfortable for me, at least at first, knowing that my teacher was super, super gay. Then, I could feel comfortable.

Now, I couldn't care less either way. But then, I strongly preferred a gay teacher.

salsachinita

12-18-2003, 08:32 PM

I think gay guys are great fun to hang with, dancing or otherwise!

Having studied fashion design in college, most of the students/lecturers were gay (so it was kinda dry for us hetero girls in the dating department :roll: :lol: ).

I went to a gay salsa bar in L.A. ('99) by mistake. But had a blast dancing with them anyway :D ! the guys feel SO sorry for me they kept buying me drinks & one even bought me a flower :shock: :D ! (now I don't think ANYONE had bought me a flower at a club before, straight or not!)

These days I'm starting to see hetero guys dancing together (girls have always danced together, coz there are always more girls :roll: ). They look great but I really couldn't stop feeling that the girls miss out even more this way :? , since good leads are so hard to come by!

Spitfire

12-18-2003, 10:09 PM

I believe that a large number of dance instructors who are men are gay and I have no problem with that. I always see them teaching and dancing with women and not other men.

borikensalsero

12-19-2003, 09:33 AM

Good question/topic. I feel they are all better dancers than us heterosexuals. I know that sounds like a joke, but to be perfectly honest, I do. Truthfully, I believe that dancing is sort of a "gay" thing. But I don't want to say that in a derrogatory manner. I really mean that it is a graceful thing, and I think women and gay men are more naturally graceful than heterosexual men. I'm probably just a victim of society and media, I don't know. But I just associate those really good dancers that you see supporting the stars like Britney Spears and Madonna as being gay. I am mainly talking about the solo dancers. Sorry, please don't bash me. It isn't my "fault". I think anything that you believe without knowing why or being able to justify it, you've simply learned from upbringing, or society, things like that- things out of your control.

Interesting point, one which has more cultural implication than that of fact. To make a story short, American/European societies didn't really embrace male dancing. However, Latin America for the most part because of its roots, has always embraced dancing for both males are females. You are as likely to see an outstanding male dancer as you are a gay dancer. Males shake it like girls can without a hint of sexual awkardness.

In all, the thought of I'm a male I'm not supposed to dance was culturaly built.

Sagitta

12-19-2003, 10:52 AM

I believe that a large number of dance instructors who are men are gay and I have no problem with that. I always see them teaching and dancing with women and not other men.

What if you saw the gay men instructors teaching and dancing with men? Would that change things?

Interesting point, one which has more cultural implication than that of fact. To make a story short, American/European societies didn't really embrace male dancing. However, Latin America for the most part because of its roots, has always embraced dancing for both males are females. You are as likely to see an outstanding male dancer as you are a gay dancer. Males shake it like girls can without a hint of sexual awkardness.

In all, the thought of I'm a male I'm not supposed to dance was culturaly built.

This idea of different cultural norms is very true. In Tanzania, East Africa, you are equally likely to see both males and females shaking it, irrespective of sexual orientation.

pygmalion

12-19-2003, 11:40 AM

Oh yeah, and a couple more notes on the issue of homosexual dancers, before I have to go finish xmas shopping. :shock: (note to self: panic!)

One, at least one of the major dance bulletin boards/forums out there has a forum just by and for gay and lesbian dancers, and it's extremely well trafficked. Also, there are a couplegay swing dance websites that I've found. Interestingly, the topics discussed aren't generally about sexuality. They discuss issues about dance, same as DF.

Gayness? Non-issue in the context of dance, if you ask me.

Vince A

12-19-2003, 12:02 PM

However a non-issue it may seem, I bet it is a issue as far as most dance venues/federations, etc., are concerned.

I wonder if I wanted to compete in Pro-Am with a male . . . think I'd be allowed? I don't think so. Yet, I've seen 2 women compete in "just Dances" and I've seen a woman who stood in the male line of a Jack and Jill.

I don't know the answers . . . just asking!!!

d nice

12-19-2003, 04:15 PM

With a few notable exceptions, most competitions in the Swing World (both Lindy and West Coast) will only allow a couple of one man leading and one femal following dance in their normal divisions.

Some will allow it in Cabaret, or special "bookend" divisions, but in a classic, showcase, strictly/just dance or jack and jill... not a chance.

While there is no explicit statement against homosexuality, the implications are clear, two people of the same sex are not considered a legitimate dance team and should not be allowed to compete together.

Spitfire

12-19-2003, 04:58 PM

What if you saw the gay men instructors teaching and dancing with men? Would that change things?

Not at all, I only mention that since I don't see it done.

pygmalion

12-19-2003, 05:03 PM

With a few notable exceptions, most competitions in the Swing World (both Lindy and West Coast) will only allow a couple of one man leading and one femal following dance in their normal divisions.

Wow! The things you learn in DF. It never occurred to me there'd be any such problem, although I guess it should have. I've done many a partner dance performance with my female teachers. Since they were leading, they just dressed in a tux or suit, I in a dress. Hmm.

Sagitta

12-19-2003, 06:58 PM

With a few notable exceptions, most competitions in the Swing World (both Lindy and West Coast) will only allow a couple of one man leading and one femal following dance in their normal divisions.

Wow! The things you learn in DF. It never occurred to me there'd be any such problem, although I guess it should have. I've done many a partner dance performance with my female teachers. Since they were leading, they just dressed in a tux or suit, I in a dress. Hmm.

One woman wears a tux and another a dress, and that's acceptable. Interesting... Perhaps, if the male leader man dresses in a tux and the male follow in a dress that would be accepted? :)

SDsalsaguy

12-19-2003, 08:12 PM

Both the NDCA and USABDA (the two governing bodies of ballroom comps here in the U.S.) have rules stipulating that a competitive couple consists of one male and one female.

suek

12-20-2003, 03:15 AM

Okay I've started to reply twice, and stopped myself. My own homophobia surfaces...is it safe? Can I trust these folks? Myself? And since I've been in the closet big time (for the most part) in my dance world, this has felt risky.

Big breath...Here goes some of my thoughts on this topic, in no particular order:

--I was identifying lesbian when I started dancing. I began dancing in women's dance classes and social dances. My addiction/dedication/need to learn soon outgrew the limited offerings in same-sex dance. Jumped into the bigger world of dance classes and social dancing in the more traditional settings. And since I had decided to learn to follow (I was originally going to lead) I found myself dancing with guys, since the women who lead and lead well are few and far between. (You can be sure I am always on the lookout for those women and absolutely love to dance with them--duh!)
--Homophobia is all over the place. Some of my lesbian friends said (with a horrified look on their faces) "you're dancing with men! are they straight? How could you?" To which I've replied, "I don't ask them who they're f***ing; I just ask them to dance. And if they dance well, I ask them again." Sadly, some women look like they feel betrayed. Give me a break.
--And then there's the casual, unthinking homophobia in the mixed dance world. Lots of jokes about if one's gay. Keep in mind I'm a swing dancer, and in Sacramento anyway, the demographic of the lindy hop scene is very young...early twenties on average. So I'm aware that there's a lot of maturing that is yet to happen with these kids (most of whom I adore). An example: There's an old lindy hop song Lavender Coffin. I've heard the DJ make unbelievably homophobic jokes when he has spun this song.
--Here's one more interesting (at least to me) thing: dancing has made me realize that whatever label I use to describe my sexual orientation, there's a sensuality and passion available to me in dance that comes from the connection, the music and the energy moving back and forth and through me and my partner, whether that partner is male or female. Since I'm not dating anyone, and since my passion is sublimated through my dance at this point, it's moot whether I'm lesbian or bi. What I know I am, however, is sensual and passionate and very very lucky that dance is my art form. And that I get to play in this arena nearly every day.
--I think it sucks that same-sex couples can't compete in trad swing competitions. Get a clue, folks. Dance is dance. Let's encourage everyone.

That's enough for now. Can't wait to hear your thoughts, my dears.

Blessings,

Sue

SDsalsaguy

12-20-2003, 04:12 AM

Thanks for sharing Sue!!! And here's a big :kissme: for you too!!!

I think you bring up a really great point in that you (in the general sense) don't need to be attracted to your partner of the moment to be able to tap into the sensual/flirtatious elements of dancing – absolutely regardless of orientation, etc.. Just speaking from my own experience, I can be flirtatious with a woman I am dancing with even if I am not attracted to her. Why wouldn't this be exactly the same dynamic for someone dancing with a partner not of their sexual preference be it on individual grounds vs. sex grounds?

I'm also reminded of several world class Latin ballroom dancers who, when asked about their orientation relative to their dancing, still speak about the sensuality of partnering. This suggests to me that one of the problems many people seem to be having – at least conceptually speaking – is in conflating sensuality and sexuality. I think one of the really valuable things your post does Sue is to point out that in fact, if not in common usage, these are entirely distinct elements to identity and personal interaction.

Many :together: (it was the closest to hugs I could come up with) Sue!

—Jonathan

pygmalion

12-20-2003, 11:53 AM

Hugs and kisses to you, sue.

I'm really tempted to give a long, long dissertation about my political views on this topic, where I started and how I got where I am, but I'll spare you all. Suffice it to say that I think homophobia is a scary, dangerous, and sometimes evil thing.

That said, back to the topic. Or close, anyway. For me, dancing has never had sexual overtones. I've never had a dance partner who was also a romantic partner, at least not yet. But virtually every time I dance, there's sensuality involved. And that's true regardless of the gender of my partner. The sensuality in my dancing is about my tapping into myself, not necessarily about attraction to my dance partner.

pygmalion

01-22-2004, 12:52 PM

Here's an interesting article about the Ballroom Project, two same sex ballroom partners in London working to raise awareness and acceptance of gay partner dancing. What do you think about this? Unnecessary? Offensive? Ineffective? Good? Bad?

dancing-times.co.uk/dancetoday200401-3.html

tsb

01-22-2004, 02:27 PM

Now as far as coming on to you... you've never done that to a chick who you were interested in? How else would you know if they're interested in you unless you came on a little

people seem to have dropped the part where these people made advances while in the role of an instructor. i personally find this behavior to be very unprofessional, regardless of sexual preference. as a matter of fact, one of my contracts with a local studio expressly prohbits fraterization with clients. (BTW, it's not arthur murray but one of the owners did work at arthur murray for a while)

i don't know if i've danced with a gay partner because it's never come up. i've been at dances where there have been a shortage of women and i've offered to follow. some guys were ok with it, some weren't.

i'm curious as to whether there's any specific dance in mind. for some reason i'm imagining primarily salsa.

Sagitta

01-22-2004, 03:27 PM

i'm curious as to whether there's any specific dance in mind. for some reason i'm imagining primarily salsa.

I wonder why? I guess we DF salseros/salseras are a pretty vocal group. I've seen two really good straight guys dancing salsa together.

I actually danced with a lesbian at the zydeco dance I went to a little while back. I realized that when we first started out and she assumed the leader's frame. (A missed opportunity as I don't mind learning the follows part.) Then she immediately changed to a follow frame. Even when I said I didn't mind learning the other part? :?

pygmalion

01-22-2004, 05:37 PM

people seem to have dropped the part where these people made advances while in the role of an instructor. i personally find this behavior to be very unprofessional, regardless of sexual preference. as a matter of fact, one of my contracts with a local studio expressly prohbits fraterization with clients. (BTW, it's not arthur murray but one of the owners did work at arthur murray for a while)

Amen to this. I've been on the receiving end of advances by a couple different teachers, both straight men, and I find it to be objectionable -- even unethical. That has nothing to do with sexual preference. Both sexual opportunists and people with ethics/discretion exist in gay and straight communities.

tsb

01-22-2004, 06:45 PM

i'm curious as to whether there's any specific dance in mind. for some reason i'm imagining primarily salsa.

I wonder why? I guess we DF salseros/salseras are a pretty vocal group. I've seen two really good straight guys dancing salsa together.

not to say that there aren't a lot of them in LA, but the only openly gay dance event / venue i'm aware of is saturday nights at rudolpho's in silverlake (aka the "swish" alps - hey a gay friend told me the nickname) and it happens to be a salsa venue - and straight on mondays and wednesdays.

an ex-dance teacher of mine used to do shows and a lot of the other guys were gay and were pretty outrageous in how they hit on him, offering him oral sex and speculating on the size and shape of his... anatomy. i would have been pretty uncomfortable with that personally.

I actually danced with a lesbian at the zydeco dance I went to a little while back. I realized that when we first started out and she assumed the leader's frame. (A missed opportunity as I don't mind learning the follows part.) Then she immediately changed to a follow frame. Even when I said I didn't mind learning the other part? :?

i now recall an incident in a class where a female insisted on switching and dancing the leader's part. i remember thinking 'why would she want to try leading since she hasn't mastered following yet?' it wasn't until months later that i found out that she was a lesbian - but i noticed that all the followers in class found reasons to avoid her during the class rotations. the only thing i found objectionable was that the class was gender balanced until she switched and consequently created two extra leaders in the class.

based on my experiences, when a woman is leading another woman, my natural assumption is that she's either a teacher with a student or has spent a lot of time in venues where men were in short supply; one of my best dance buddies is a better leader than a lot of men i know but she's not an instructor nor does she prefer women.

Sagitta

01-22-2004, 08:53 PM

Actually this place, Commonground, is one of those "LGBT"? places. It's the same place that has salsa on Tuesday nights, and it seems fairly straight on those nights. Quite often ladies will take other ladies to dance, but it's clear that they are teaching a friend who has no clue!!

Swing Kitten

01-23-2004, 12:55 AM

the only thing i found objectionable was that the class was gender balanced until she switched and consequently created two extra leaders in the class.

Well if she enrolled on the class to learn how to lead then she should get her money's worth don'tcha think? I would imagine that many leads would be annoyed if they signed up for a class and then only had the opportunity to follow to keep things balanced.

It is very nice when there isn't a waiting spot in the rotation -- very very nice-- but I'm guessing she did what she came to do.

tsb

01-23-2004, 01:15 AM

Swing Kitten

01-23-2004, 01:23 AM

:shrug:

you're not wrong

tsb

01-23-2004, 03:26 AM

:shrug:

you're not wrong

i dunno, i was just thinking it might have been clearer had i stated that up front.

MapleLeaf Salsero

01-23-2004, 07:34 AM

Hi everyone!

I’d just like to share my view on this.

Even though I’m straight, I’ve danced on several occasions with guys. I wasn’t uncomfortable with it because I knew that neither they nor I are gay. I must be honest though, if I found myself dancing with a guy I knew was gay, I’d feel very uncomfortable… I’d worry that he’d try to come on to me. I would however have no problem dancing with a lesbian.

Regarding dancing with people of the same sex, I have nothing against it. I’ve done it a number of times and enjoyed it. Once I started dancing with a guy and it was really fun. He told me, “I want to follow, I want to play the girl”. During the dance, he started to play with the situation, doing the flashing eyelid thing, wiggling his waist, putting his arm in the air, lots of lady styling moves, etc. After a while a big circle formed around us and everyone was watching and laughing. It cracked me up to see the masculine type acting like a girl. Half way through the song I found it was becoming hard to lead because I was laughing so much. It was one of the most interesting and fun dances I’ve ever had.

Another time during a Rueda class, there were two guys without a partner - my friend and I. My friend told me “since there aren’t enough women lets practise dancing with each other”. This time I was the follow. It was a great experience, I learnt a lot from his lead. I realized that my lead was lacking a number of important things. I was doing certain things wrong!! It was then that I realized why all the girls loved his lead. It was assertive but very gentle. The way he placed his hands made the following very easy and comfortable.

These are two reasons why I think everyone should switch roles once in a while. It can be a great learning experience as well as fun. I also believe that all salsa instructors should know both roles very well in order to understand the complexity and specifics of both worlds. This will definitely improve their teaching methods.

Regards,

dragon3085

01-23-2004, 07:59 AM

I worry about who I am dancing with- Other are on their own for partner selection. So long as it doens't try to eat me you can bring your pet tiger and dance with for all care. :D Gay couples have the same human rights as everybody else and I am pretty sure that covers dancing too.

twnkltoz

02-29-2004, 03:45 PM

This is an oldish topic, but I'm new so that gives me license to dredge it up again!

I'll go along with what everyone seems to be saying...I don't care what your preference is. I have friends who are gay. Yes, I make jokes, but they tend to be the same kind of jokes that they make about themselves or that I would make about myself. I'm a joker. Sometimes I'm funny, sometimes I'm not.

Sue, I've danced with you before. In fact, you've taken classes from me. Haven't seen you in a long time! I hope you weren't driven away...just found greener pastures?

pygmalion

02-29-2004, 03:59 PM

You know, twnkltoz, one of the nicest things about new members is watching them discover oldish topics and bring new perspectives to the table. Thanks for adding your view to this one! :D

elisedance

01-19-2008, 05:30 AM

tangotime

01-19-2008, 06:15 AM

I did a search for the true/false thread and all sorts of interesting stuff came up that could be updated. Reading through this (I did not do the whole thing) I was impressed with the high level of honesty and also tollerance.

I could not help but wonder if attitudes have changed. How do people feel now? Would you dance with a person of the same sex? Do you object to same sex couples on the dance floor? I do suggest, however, that you read the first post here by DM before answering.

have employed many gay teachers-- some of the best I ever had, and remained good friends with them thruout the yrs .

elisedance

01-19-2008, 06:22 AM

Hi TT: were they able/encoraged/tollerated to dance with each other in your studio?

tangotime

01-19-2008, 06:56 AM

Hi TT: were they able/encoraged/tollerated to dance with each other in your studio?

I had, at one time, in one school, 3 , and they would play around for fun and the students didnt mind at all . This was in the beginning of the 80s .

elisedance

01-19-2008, 08:02 AM

See, thats the impressino I have - that attitudes have actually hardened in many places. That may be the case here in Canada too where, of course, it is legal for gays to marry. I am astonished that there has not been a law case here yet to permit gays to enter the same competition - I mean, how can it be illegal to discriminate in marriage but OK to exclude from ballrom dancing competitions?

fascination

01-19-2008, 08:45 AM

This may be a controversial topic, but I think we can handle it in a reasonable manner.

How do you feel about gay dancers?
Are you comfortable dancing with the same sex if they are gay?
Do you think it is OK for gay couples to dance at public dances and even show affection for each other?how do I feel about them???? uh, same as I feel about people in general...fine if I like them, avoid them if I don't...
and the answer is yes to the second and third questions

There were a couple of times when they "came on" to me, and I didn't really appreciate it. But once we set the boundaries, everything was fine.when anyone comes on to me, given my marital status, I turn them down.... if they aren't creepy (of either gender) I thank them politely and inform them that I am married

There was one thing that I thought was a little weird, but maybe you will think otherwise. There is a lady who is a cross dresser who comes to the public dances. She dresses like a man and then goes around asking all the ladies to dance. Usually the ladies don't even realize she is also a woman.lol, there are all sorts of things in ballroom that aren't exactly as they seem...this one is no different for me...a good lead is a good lead

I find it a little funny the way straight guys (like me) always have to make it known that they are not gay (like me) before talking about accepting gay people. :lol:given the negative connotation that most boys are socialized into regarding anything feminine and the perception that gay men are more effeminate, one can certainly understand such a battle with homophobia...

danceronice

01-19-2008, 09:46 AM

Would I dance with a person of the same sex? If they were a teacher and/or a very good lead. Socially, only if it came up in a mixer because we were short on leads. I wouldn't be comfortable with it.

cornutt

01-19-2008, 11:06 AM

IWould you dance with a person of the same sex?

I've done it. No big deal. It's not my favorite thing, to be honest. Not that I have any moral objection, but dancing with another man just doesn't feel the same. But I've done it. A few years ago, I took a lindy class in Houston where there were two male follows, and I danced with one of them. It was a different experience.

Do you object to same sex couples on the dance floor?

My attitude towards it is the same as my attitude towards most other matters having to do with homosexuals: whatever. I really don't care one way or the other. I don't condemm it, nor do I consider it anything special.

samina

01-19-2008, 11:34 AM

How do I feel... Would I dance with... All just no big deal.

I think doing a chica-chica samba would be hot. And I'm hetero.

What do I care if someone same-sex comes on to me...big whoop. It's all good.

etp777

01-19-2008, 11:38 AM

I dance with male pros during lessons (though often takes a few group classes before I'll be comfortable doing this with new pro).

Won't dance with a male during social dancing generally. But one of most amusing moments at FA nationals in july last year was when two of our male pros (both decidedly straight), did a rumba together. Would have been even more fun if they switched lead/follow halfway through. But they're better dancers and more charismatic than me. They can pull it off, while I couldn't. :)

do I care if gay couples dance together? Not at all.

elisedance

01-19-2008, 11:47 AM

etp777

01-19-2008, 11:54 AM

I'm still new (at least relative to this post), and all of you keep saying I'm a kid. And yet again today at work was told I didn't look older than 18. Yes, I know I'll be happy about this later, but when I get comments like that, or our commanding officer asking if my mom knew I was here and if I was even old enough to be in theatre :P it gets old sometimes. :)

Peaches

01-19-2008, 01:23 PM

I am sooo proud of you guys!! At least from the people who've posted up to now it seems as if little has changed. OTH, most of you were here the first time round :rolleyes:

Lets hear from newbies and youngsters: how do you feel?Define "newbie" and "youngster," lol.

My answer to all of it is a big, general Whatever.

Do I care if they dance together? No, why should I. Do I care if they ask me to dance? No, why should I...a leader is a leader is a leader, and so long as they're not unpleasant for other reasons it beats sitting. Coming on to me? Well, I'm married, so that changes things a bit. But no different than if a straight guy came on to me. Showing affection? After a certain point there's a degree of "go get a room," but that has nothing to do with the genders of the people involved.

Who cares? There are bigger issues in life than gay people dancing together.

QQS_Girl

01-19-2008, 01:24 PM

hey all. love the topic, and i've had a great time reading through everyone's posts.

i actually teach a group class for a local glbt dance club(where there are also a few hetero dancers), and also coach their dance team. i've found that this is a typical group class: some people are good, some are.....not so much. =) the class and team are made up of primarily gay men, but i do have a lesbian couple in the class. i've never felt awkward dancing w/either of them, leading or following. as to "worrying" about one of them hitting on me, this has never happened. if it ever did, i would treat it just like i would if a straight male hit on me. if i am interested, i let them know, if i am not, i let them know. simple. in fact, the hardest thing about teaching the class for me is remembering to not use "him" and "her" when describing the leader and follower!

the question of dancing with someone of the same sex when i am out social dancing is simple. if someone asks me to dance, i will. we are all out there to have fun and dance, and someone's sexual orientation has no bearing on their ability to do that. i love to lead, so i will also ask other women to dance. (i am pretty young (21) and i think that for some reason it is more acceptable for young ppl to dance w/the same sex for some reason...especially girls. just a thought to throw out there.) and if a man wants to practice leading, i would jump at the chance to lead him. the question was asked what you think of a same sex couple out dancing socially. who cares? if who someone is dancing with concerns you, then you're sitting around too much. go ask someone to dance and get out on the floor! i'm sure you'll forget all about it.

sorry about the book! =)
-gretchen

samina

01-19-2008, 01:25 PM

Who cares? There are bigger issues in life than gay people dancing together.

exactly. like, whether or not a guy shaves his pits.:cool:

Peaches

01-19-2008, 01:29 PM

exactly. like, whether or not a guy shaves his pits.:cool:You know, I don't even care about that. I guess I kind of like it when I see it, but I'm more interested in what other areas he shaves.

I was thinking, there are more important issues in life...like what am I going to wear to go AT dancing this evening?

I will put this out there and admit that I have not always been so comfortable. It wasn't until my second year of college, when my roommate at the time was bi, that I became comfortable with not-straight people. I have to give her credit...she took pretty much everything in stride and we spent a lot of time talking. She's been my absolute best friend for the last 10 years.

LucyDiamond

01-19-2008, 01:30 PM

exactly. like, whether or not a guy shaves his pits.:cool:
ditto - :uplaugh:

etp777

01-19-2008, 01:36 PM

You know, I don't even care about that. I guess I kind of like it when I see it, but I'm more interested in what other areas he shaves.

:mrgreen::twisted: We're SO going to get this thread locked. :mrgreen:

samina

01-19-2008, 01:47 PM

no, still in safe zone... heh

i could stay to push it to the fringes but... gotta get my but movin'.

Terpsichorean Clod

01-20-2008, 12:08 AM

I could not help but wonder if attitudes have changed. How do people feel now? Would you dance with a person of the same sex?
BTDT - dancing int'l standard in contact with heterosexual men, heterosexual women, homosexual men, homosexual women.
Do you object to same sex couples on the dance floor? I do suggest, however, that you read the first post here by DM before answering.
No.

reb

01-20-2008, 01:41 AM

We just read on another thread about Bill Maher baiting Bruno on tv . . .

I dance with male pros during lessons

My answer to all of it is a big, general Whatever.

Who cares? There are bigger issues in life than gay people dancing together.

exactly

ditto - :uplaugh:

Tritto

Pacion

01-21-2008, 12:19 PM

You know, I don't even care about that. I guess I kind of like it when I see it, but I'm more interested in what other areas he shaves.

:lol: Actually, whether he waxes or not is more of interest to me! :lol:

(It may be a generalisation, but men are notoriously nervous about waxing :lol:)

elisedance

01-21-2008, 12:32 PM

[QUOTE=Pacion;515705
(It may be a generalisation, but men are notoriously nervous about waxing :lol:)[/QUOTE]

That may be cause they associate it with waning... :o

Stagekat

01-21-2008, 01:00 PM

I am pleased that my opinion must chime in with the majority here... and say that I'm just happy people are dancing, gender is of no consiquense to me in determining whether I enjoy dancing with someone or not. Unfortunately I'm not skilled enough to lead yet or I'd be running around dancing with everybody myself!

elisedance

01-21-2008, 01:17 PM

In our area only once have I been asked to dance by another woman - she was more than a foot shorter but since it was latin this was not a real issue and I must say she led beautifully. After a class I did once suggested trying to lead a woman who is an advanced (open) dancer and I thought would be open minded. Her expression could best be described as 'deer in the headlights' shock and I won't repeat her reply. People are very conservative here - or at least at the studios I go to (there are more open minded ones I'm sure). So, even if one learned to lead I don't know where one would excersize the skill - maybe one could find a guy that wants to learn to follow!

Stagekat

01-21-2008, 02:17 PM

At the studio I frequent most the gal instructors will ask the female students to dance if there is an overabundance of female students present at a social... and they are all fair to good leads, (the majority are overwhelmingly shorter than myself so I know where you're coming from EE)... if I could lead I know the students at that studio could handle my asking... and I know a lot of the male pros would totally ham it up if I asked them!

elisedance

01-21-2008, 02:26 PM

Or you could come to Toronto and shock the very foundations of ballroom :)

Stagekat

01-21-2008, 02:39 PM

ooo.. sign me up... I'm all about shaking foundations!

elisedance

01-21-2008, 03:07 PM

ooo.. sign me up... I'm all about shaking foundations!

Hmm, now that could be easily misread by Some of Our Readers :roll:

DancePoet

01-21-2008, 03:41 PM

I did a search for the true/false thread and all sorts of interesting stuff came up that could be updated. Reading through this (I did not do the whole thing) I was impressed with the high level of honesty and also tollerance.

I could not help but wonder if attitudes have changed. How do people feel now? Would you dance with a person of the same sex? Do you object to same sex couples on the dance floor? I do suggest, however, that you read the first post here by DM before answering.
I have danced with male instructors as part of a lesson, but I ask ladies to dance at social dances. Never been asked by a guy, and would likely turn it down. Same sex couples are ok on the social dance floor to me, but I have rarely seen this.

Stagekat

01-21-2008, 03:57 PM

Hmm, now that could be easily misread by Some of Our Readers :roll:

LOL!!! You are the double entenre police for sure!

elisedance

01-21-2008, 04:20 PM

:) :)

yippee1999

01-23-2008, 02:56 PM

I just came across this thread and had to tell my story...

First off, I (hetero) have no problem with gay folks at the dances. I generally go to the (mainly salsa) socials, and sometimes the salsa clubs, and it's rare to see any same sex couples dancing, although I think I did see a male couple once or twice at a social. As to F/F couples, while I have seen women dancing together, my sense is that in the instances I've seen, they were just friends or maybe a female instructor that knew how to lead, dancing with a female follower, and not a couple per se.

Anyway, one time I was at a salsa social that I have gone to many times, and where I have never seen any obviously gay folk. A woman came over to me and asked if I wanted to dance. I was a bit taken aback, as it would have been one thing if I knew her, and in addition, I had never seen her before at any of the dances. Anyway, I usually don't turn someone down unless I had a previous bad experience with them. I inferred this woman obviously knew how to lead and was just looking for a presumed follower like myself to dance with. I nodded "yes" and then she said "you know how to dance right?" and I'm like "yeah" (and thinking "what an odd question to ask...do I LOOK like a total newbie??")

Anyway, as we begin to dance, I get a better look at her and I'm like "oy vey...she's not just a woman that knows how to lead...I think she's a lesbian!" But it wasn't so much the fact that she was a lesbian that made me uncomfortable, but how she also came across. She was somewhat large, and had ample breasts. Whenever we were in closed position, I could feel her (large) left breast smooshed up against me, and honestly.... it felt very awkward for me. I was also a bit self-conscious as to what other people might be thinking..if they were wondering if I had any idea she was a lesbian...if maybe I'm into women, etc. I think another factor was that salsa in and of itself can be a sexual/flirtatious dance, and I don't feel comfortable being this way with an obvious lesbian. In addition, she was a bit rough with me during turn patterns. She also "corrected" me a few times. And I know this might sound rather "sexist" of me but....it's one thing for a man to correct me (which I don't like during social dancing), but I'll be damned if another woman is going to give me an uninvited correction! :-) Hypocritical and sexist of me, I know. But that was honestly what I was thinking!

Anyway, I couldn't wait for the dance to end. I haven't run into her again, and just hope I am never put in that compromising position again. I just really didn't enjoy the dance.

lcdancesport

01-23-2008, 03:06 PM

I really don't care who dances with who at socials. I've practiced a number of times with another female teacher and it's been nice b/c if a guy isn't around we can practice reverse roles to get the lead parts down.

I've also danced with another female at a social before and she did give me a bit of a funny look. I didn't see the big deal b/c I'd rather be on the floor than sitting on a chair watching everyone! Her and I did a hustle and that was that, I think she had fun, sorry if I wasn't a guy. :p

samina

01-23-2008, 03:06 PM

sounds like a common case of having been man-handled... gender being irrelevant. never a pleasant experience.
(hang on, i take that back... there are certainly those that seek the experience out... i am certainly not included in that group.)

lcdancesport

01-23-2008, 03:09 PM

sounds like a common case of having been man-handled... gender being irrelevant. never a pleasant experience.

Agreed. I remember one gentleman and his wife were good social dancers except the poor woman was being tossed around the floor and he became the center of the dance... I realized this after I had a dance with him. I value my arms thank you very much!

samina

01-23-2008, 03:14 PM

my closest female friend is gay and have spent time with her circle of friends on numerous accounts. it's been interesting noting the flexibility of gender roles amongst the group. gender is truly far more complex than "check M or F"...

Tori

01-23-2008, 05:41 PM

I don't care much who dances with who.
Dancing is dancing. Regardless of gender.
My Dad on the other hand is a little bit less open minded.

elisedance

01-24-2008, 04:15 AM

It really is a generation thing I think Tori - perhaps the tendency of the younger ones of hanging out in large groups, rather than pairing off immediately into boy-girl as quickly as possible, has allowed them to get to know each other and the lovely richness of human variety. Or to put it in one word, tollerance.

Joe

01-24-2008, 07:02 AM

In addition, she was a bit rough with me during turn patterns. She also "corrected" me a few times. And I know this might sound rather "sexist" of me but....it's one thing for a man to correct me (which I don't like during social dancing), but I'll be damned if another woman is going to give me an uninvited correction! :-) Hypocritical and sexist of me, I know. But that was honestly what I was thinking!
Rudeness is rudeness, irrespective of gender or sexual orientation.

fascination

01-24-2008, 09:27 AM

agree

anp73ga31

01-24-2008, 09:37 AM

There are so many extra women in our area, that no one really thinks twice about women dancing with women. My friends and I will dance hustle or swing or merengue together just for the fun of it. I have one girl friend who likes to lead chacha. Now that I'm thinking of it, though, it seems like we do tend to stick more to the latin/rhythm dances or non-ballroom dances (dont know how else to catagorize hustle, etc). With the exception of my girl friend who likes to lead VW, that is. And for laughs, her husband and one of the local studio owners (also a male) will sometimes break into a VW just to prove they can do as well as we can (now THEY used to get some weird looks until people got used to it! lol!) Anyway, we are all just straight people wanting to get out there and dance in any way we can. I can only really think of one lady in our area who is quite obviously a lesbian...she only dances lead and since we have tons of extra women she always has lots of partners. I have no problem dancing the smooth dances with her, though it felt kind of odd at first until my girl friends and I figured out it was because she wore sleeveless shirts and we werent used to holding onto bare arms, much less a womans arms. She's a good lead, though, and I like to dance with her. If I had my choice, however, I would dance with a man. Dont have much use for them outside of dance, but it just feels better and more natural to dance with men. And I will admit that sometimes I worry if people think I too am lesbian, especially if the woman I mentioned sits with me and dances mostly with me during the entire social. I've noticed that then the men tend NOT to ask me to dance, which is not good. Not that lots of them clamor to ask me to dance anyway....

fascination

01-24-2008, 09:41 AM

Peaches

01-24-2008, 10:23 AM

ya know, speaking only for myself...i guess I really wouldn't care if folks thought I was GLB or T....I mean none of those things imply an innappropriate acting out anymore than being hetero does......mehDitto, although it may be that I'm inured to it.

Pre-DH, I know a fair number of people assumed I was gay, and were somewhat surprised when I took up with a guy. Since-DH, some people assume I'm bi, although it seems to happen with much less frequency, prolly just b/c I'm married.

*shrug* Whatever.

samina

01-24-2008, 10:29 AM

yep. people love intrigue, anyway... heh

etp777

01-24-2008, 10:59 AM

Heh, lots of people assume I'm gay because I dance. Fact I like a decent glass of wine and can dress halfway decently doesn't help either.

fascination

01-24-2008, 11:42 AM

lol...prolly the absence of pink in your wardrobe P...lol...ducks...anyhow...I like my sensible shoes and wide watchbands

Gssh

01-24-2008, 03:18 PM

What i find interesting is that what is being discussed here is not really "homosexual dancers", but "dancers who dance the role that is traditionally reserved for the other gender". I know at least one woman who is lesbian and who dances exclusivly as a follower, and i have danced with straight men who were dancing as followers - i sometimes dance as a follower, and i am not gay either. And there is at least one couple at the dances that i frequent who both dance both roles, so you can see a straight woman leading a straight man. Actually, now that i think about it, all of the female leaders i know are straight, and just prefer/enjoy leading.

So, for the people objecting to "homosexual dancers"- what would be worse:
A gay man leading a gay woman or
A straight woman leading a straight man?

Gssh

Peaches

01-24-2008, 03:23 PM

Have people actually objected to "homosexual" dancers? Somehow, that's not what I got from reading the thread...at least, not recently.

Gssh

01-24-2008, 03:28 PM

Have people actually objected to "homosexual" dancers? Somehow, that's not what I got from reading the thread...at least, not recently.

Nah, nobody has - i just thought it interesting that "sexual orientation" and "conforming to gender roles" is being discussed as the
same thing, and i wanted to contrast these ideas.

A better phrasing would have been:
"So, hypothetically, for people who object to "homosexual dancers" - what would be more objectionable: "

Gssh

elisedance

01-24-2008, 03:31 PM

I think I've read it all and the objections have not been to homosexual per se but to unwanted attention - and that has been appreciated as not a gay/lesbian issue but a human one. Its interesting, however, that not a single person has stated that they are G or L (or anything else). I find it near impossible that that can be true and suspect that in itself that indicates at least a percieved potential stigma in the ballroom circles.

So, to be provocative, if someone said they were G/L/T do you think that would make it harder for them to find teachers or partners of the opposite physical sex (I add that simply because the ballroom community currently does discriminate against same sex couples).

yippee1999

01-24-2008, 04:04 PM

Elise: I could be wrong, but I would suspect that not only would it not be harder, but that it might be easier for the L/G/T to find a dance partner of the opposite sex, because then both parties know that they don't have to worry about the whole "sex" thing hanging in the air between them. I would love to be able to find a gay guy to dance with cuz then I could "totally" relax. :--) Course, some might say that sexual tension adds to the chemistry between two otherwise platonic dancers...

elisedance

01-24-2008, 05:44 PM

What a great point of view! Would this affect the judging do you think? I would like to think not - there might be an argument against same-sex couples in ballroom (though personally I think it is weak) but doing the same for opposite (physical) sex couples would be unabashed discrimination.

yippee1999

01-24-2008, 06:10 PM

kayak

01-26-2008, 04:09 PM

Yeah, I think it's ridiculous that in this day and age that dance competitions, or "pairs skating" for that matter...that it can't just include couples period, whomever that couple might consist of. But I think unfortunately there could always be judges with a bias, so yeah, it could affect people's scores...

Silton and Morrison are a same sex showcase swing "couple". The end result is a very different presentation and dance from a male-female couple even if they are doing the same moves. Figuring out how to balance a guys strength from a ladies grace should give most judges a headache.

meow

01-26-2008, 05:53 PM

Here in Ozland, we have many male gay dancers who are partnered with females in both latin and ballroom sections. In many cases their sexual orientation is obvious amd no-one thinks anything of it. It doesn't affect the markings at all. I don't know of any gay females though - I'm sure there are some but perhaps they keep that to themselves more than men.
As for 'gay comps' though, most people, gay and straight, aren't interested. I don't know why; perhaps that is too far out of the 'ballroom competition proper?'

Cashmere

01-27-2008, 08:55 AM

Hi, I'd like to jump in here, I'm a little confused too.

Why would it matter if a straight woman dances with a gay male or vice versa?

I'm straight, married and my teacher/partner/pro is a gay man. I'm very happy with this. I think it's great. I can be myself, my hubby doesn't have to be jealous for all the time we spend together alone (private lessons) and I don't have to worry about anything other than dancing.

I think it should not matter, the only thing that should matter is the dance

danceronice

01-27-2008, 11:14 AM

Re why skating doesn't allow similar pairs--beside tradition and looks, you'd have to completely rework all the elements and values, because unless you went for disturbing butch/femme looks (waify boy/muscle man stereotype partners) simialar pairs couldn't perform the same elements. The throw jumps MIGHT work, but you're not going to pull off, say, a split triple twist with two partners the same general size. Two women--chances are neither's going to have the upper-body strength for overhead lifts. Most MEN don't. So allowing similar pairs in elegible comps would require a total revamp of the competition. At this point, with quad throws and the kind of twists the Chinese are doing, that would be technical regression and it's not the way the sport's headed.

Joe

01-27-2008, 12:32 PM

Two women--chances are neither's going to have the upper-body strength for overhead lifts. Most MEN don't.
And odds are the men who can lift a woman don't have the strength to lift a man. ;)

elisedance

01-28-2008, 07:44 AM

Thats all very well - but its only talking odds. Say you had a strong male and a light male partner what then? Should they be allowed to compete?

Its particularly interesting in Canada because with equal rights I suspect that if a same sex couple challenged the rules they would collapse out of the fear (almost certain I would guess) that the law suit would be lost. Its just odd that it has not happened till now.

By the way, gay/straight (M/F) dance partnershps have been common for many years and many were only superficially hidden - I guess it was more a 'don't ask don't tell' policy. Now, as mentioned, it can be quite in the open - but still male/female.

Cashmere

01-28-2008, 08:59 AM

By the way, gay/straight (M/F) dance partnershps have been common for many years and many were only superficially hidden - I guess it was more a 'don't ask don't tell' policy. Now, as mentioned, it can be quite in the open - but still male/female.

Wow, I'm totally surprised at hearing this. I would never have guessed that it would matter to anyone if a person was straight or gay. I'm not arguing the point, I hope you know that, I'm just totally surprised if they were m/f partner why it would even come up or need to come up or whatever. This is really something I never gave any thought to at all. ;)

elisedance

01-28-2008, 09:12 AM

I think the consensus it that it should not matter and in general it does not matter. However, the observation that we have yet to have an openly gay person contribute to the discussion seems to indicate that there may yet be some stigma there.

anp73ga31

01-28-2008, 09:16 AM

ya know, speaking only for myself...i guess I really wouldn't care if folks thought I was GLB or T....I mean none of those things imply an innappropriate acting out anymore than being hetero does......meh

well I wouldnt care so much if it didnt result in the men not asking me to dance. who wants to go to a dance and just sit there? or to just dance with one woman the entire night because everyone assumes you prefer to dance with her? i love gay men and have no problem with gay women, but when it comes to ballroom I prefer to dance mostly with men and just occasionally with women.

OT to fascination: just was able to start lessons two weeks ago with local instructor that came highly recommended by you, and he is indeed wonderful. has just the right mix of humor and seriousness and technique and the best thing is, he can totally come at things from the woman's perspective, which makes it sooo much easier to understand. My goal is to be doing bronze standard with him at the Atlanta Open. (crossing fingers)

Back OT: I love (and prefer) dancing with gay men...you never have to worry about them hitting on you and you KNOW they are there just to dance. :)