shoes for beginners (sorry for another shoe thread...)

[Anna]

I hate to bring up another thread about shoes, but:

We're going on a shopping trip to NYC with some of the team beginners who already want shoes, and I think most of them will be buying only one pair. I had basically no guidance with my first pair of shoes, so I don't really know what to recommend...

Guys are definitely better off getting just standard shoes, right? But for ladies it's not so clear. Between standard and latin shoes, I guess latin shoes work better for both? Do any brands of latin shoes work better for standard than others? Or would it be best to get smooth shoes (with closed toe and open sides) to start with for both standard and latin? (This is for competitions, and most of them seem like they'll be sticking around on the team for a while.)

Oh, and if there was already a thread about this, please let me know!

[fascination]

my hunch would be smooth shoes

[Anna]

I know almost nothing about smooth shoes, are they supposed to fit about the same way as standard?

Also (mostly for people who've hung around college teams), is there any reason why most beginners get latin instead of smooth shoes?

[danceislove]

if you can only afford one pair of shoes and you will use them for both smooth/standard and rhythm/latin then you need to get open toed shoes (aka latin shoes). I suggest getting a flesh toned satin so that when you wear them for smooth they will not be very noticable. You cannot wear smooth shoes for latin, it just isn't done. my other advice is that you definitely get what you pay for when it comes to dance shoes, so spend as much as you can afford.
good luck :D

[tanya_the_dancer]

I know almost nothing about smooth shoes, are they supposed to fit about the same way as standard?

Also (mostly for people who've hung around college teams), is there any reason why most beginners get latin instead of smooth shoes?

My guess would be that most beginners choose shoes the way they would choose dressy shoes. So those who like open sandals, will chose latin shoes (and I think such people are in majority). I am not a big fan of sandals, so the very first pair I chose was a smooth black pair with 1 3/4 heel.

[Chris Stratton]

You cannot wear smooth shoes for latin, it just isn't done.

Perhaps. On the other hand, you can't wear latin shoes for smooth... the heel just won't work (and the open toes are kind of risky too given the desired foot articulation)

Also remember to watch out for the "flared heel" shoes which, despite looking like pumps have latin heel placement, and thus aren't practical for smooth, while presumably still being too inflexible for latin.

[Anna]

if you can only afford one pair of shoes and you will use them for both smooth/standard and rhythm/latin then you need to get open toed shoes (aka latin shoes). I suggest getting a flesh toned satin so that when you wear them for smooth they will not be very noticable. You cannot wear smooth shoes for latin, it just isn't done.

Is there any reason smooth shoes can't be worn for latin? I suppose it would look a bit silly, but is it really worse than doing standard in latin shoes? Or do people usually end up buying a second pair by the time they learn enough technique that doing standard in latin shoes would be painful?

[Anna]

Perhaps. On the other hand, you can't wear latin shoes for smooth... the heel just won't work (and the open toes are kind of risky too given the desired foot articulation)

For me, when I try to do standard in latin shoes, the open toe is a much bigger problem than the heel.

[Chris Stratton]

For me, when I try to do standard in latin shoes, the open toe is a much bigger problem than the heel.

That likely means you have made more progress on learning to extend the moving foot component than on learning to move the weight all the way through the standing foot before leaving it (which would leave you balanced on the rear edge of the heel)

[and123]

It really seems to depend on the person wearing the shoes. I know people who have danced for years in the basic closed-toe character shoe, and to this day I still see people dancing Smooth/Standard in latin sandals at higher levels (Silver/Gold). I cringe, because Chris Stratton is absolutely correct -- it's difficult to impossible to execute the proper technique in those shoes. I was guilty myself of wearing latin shoes for all styles for quite a while due to bad painful early experiences with character shoes and then court shoes, but when my Standard coach insisted I get proper shoes for comps, I noticed a huge difference in step execution. I can't *believe* I used to dance Smooth in 3" flared latin heels :shock:
That said, my vote is for newbies to get latin sandals unless they're already particularly anal retentive about proper Smooth/Standard technique. One of the biggest issues I've seen with newer dancers is that they lack proper footwork, so the type of shoe often isn't critical right away. A serious dancer, or anyone who can afford it, should of course have both types of shoe. It certainly would help to lessen or eliminate the need to correct bad habits or re-learn technique later on. SO much time and frustration can be wasted on that. Muscle memory can really come back and bite you in the a ss once the "wrong" way of doing something has become ingrained :mad: .

[musicchica86]

Well, if they're not planning on competing anytime soon, practice shoes would really be the best compromise (specifically the low-heeled, closed-toed style that's so popular, style # is 1026 for Supadance). They're useful for Latin and Standard without compromising the technique for either--well, except for maybe getting used to a higher heel later on.

Of course, you can't use practice shoes for comps, so if they're looking for comp shoes, just ignore this post. :-P

[Chris Stratton]

One of the biggest issues I've seen with newer dancers is that they lack proper footwork, so the type of shoe often isn't critical right away.

That conclusion seems so out of line with the well thought out remainder of your post. It's hard enough to learn good footwork with footwear that accomodates it - but it's going to be downright impossible without it. But if you aren't going to be developing good habits, why bother putting any real work into studying dance? Teachers who are serious about developing dancers develop the seeds of key habits from the first lesson - and leading amonst these is that it's what you do with the standing foot, not the moving foot, that is the foundation of mastery.

When skills such as footwork are taught from the beginning, you see beginners of a few months experience competing with better footwork and fundamental skills than usually seen on dancers of many years experience.

[Chris Stratton]

Well, if they're not planning on competing anytime soon, practice shoes would really be the best compromise (specifically the low-heeled, closed-toed style that's so popular, style # is 1026 for Supadance). They're useful for Latin and Standard without compromising the technique for either--well, except for maybe getting used to a higher heel later on.

Just curious, what makes an inflexible lace-up any more suitable for latin than an inflexible pump?

Those shoes wouldn't be bad for learning standard footwork at all though - in fact, they'd probably make getting the initial idea easier.

[waltzgirl]

As an all-purpose practice shoe, I like the Godiva by Elegance (try dancehappy.com). It's a lace-up, small open-toe, mesh and suede shoe. It's SO much prettier than the typical practice shoe. Some other brands, like Celebrity, also make similar shoes.

[musicchica86]

My Supadance 1026's are just as flexible as my Latin sandals, if not moreso. Please don't make value judgments about women's practice shoes and/or court shoes unless you've worn them yourself.

[delamusica]

If you can only get one style, get latin shoes. I can approximate standard footwork in my latin shoes (yes, extending your moving foot can hurt at first with the open toe, but you get used to it - and yes, the heel is a little wobbly when you push your weight through it, but if your feet and ankles are strong it can be done), but I absolutely cannot even come close to doing proper latin technique in standard shoes. Not even close.

The advice about getting what you pay for and spending as much as you can was good (can't remember who said it) - as long as you're sure you're spending that money on a good well-known brand.

And yes - definitely flesh-colored satin, whatever style.

Also, I wouldn't go above a 2 1/2 inch heel for beginner dancers. If you can talk any of them into 2 inch heels, that would be even better to learn on. A lot of girls don't like the look of them, though, so good luck with that. But definitely not more than 2 1/2. The half inch up to 3 makes a huge difference in weight placement.

[Chris Stratton]

My Supadance 1026's are just as flexible as my Latin sandals, if not moreso. Please don't make value judgments about women's practice shoes and/or court shoes unless you've worn them yourself.

If 1026's were as flexible (in the shank) as the men's latin shoes they vaguely resemble, then like men's latin shoes they would not support standard footwork, especially in backwards actions.

Any lady I've asked about it has said 1026 style shoes were too stiff for proper latin technique.

Otherwise I'd think they'd be great for the first few months of learning, and for socials. Some might feel that they aren't stylish, but then notice that the ladies wearing them tend to be dancing more, and you realize that being practical is a kind of style too.

[Chris Stratton]

I can approximate standard footwork in my latin shoes (yes, extending your moving foot can hurt at first with the open toe, but you get used to it - and yes, the heel is a little wobbly when you push your weight through it, but if your feet and ankles are strong it can be done)

You can balance on the back of one heel? And not kill the shoes in the process?

[delamusica]

Yes I can balance on one heel of my latin shoes. And no it doesn't kill them. They didn't last quite as long as they would have if I had only been using them for latin, but it's not like they fell apart or anything. If you buy high quality shoes, they're not going to buckle underneath you.

The latin shoes I used for both styles did eventually break - the heel pulled out during a foxtrot - but they lasted about a year at around 10 hours/week.

Once your technique improves, you need to get proper shoes for the style. That I agree with. But that you can't even begin to learn proper technique for standard in a latin shoe is just not true. The shoes are different, but they're not THAT different. The flexibility is an issue and yes, it's just going to take your big toe some getting used to doing standard in open-toe shoes. That's not unbearable. The difference in heel placement will not be noticable to a beginner.

[Chris Stratton]

The difference in heel placement will not be noticable to a beginner.

That you say that is pretty direct evidence that you aren't in the habit of releasing your toe with the weight still on the foot. The more rearward heel placement blocks the progress of the weight, since getting back onto it becomes too "uphill" for it to happen naturally.

And again - what is noticeable to a beginner depends on what they have been taught to do. I could point out outrageous footwork errors in championship dancers; I could also point out near demonstration quality examples in pre-bronze events.

[delamusica]

Actually, Chris, I do release my toe with the weight still in the foot. Don't judge my dancing without seeing it.

How you move weight through your foot is a reflection of the amount of attention you pay to details and the amount of strenth you develop. Some shoes do make it easier than others - but the small difference in heel placement is only an excuse to do it poorly, not a reason.

[delamusica]

And I said that it would probably not be noticable to a beginner because it is rare to see beginners that use their feet well enough to tell the difference. Yes yes. You can show me examples. Fine. But it's not common.

[Chris Stratton]

Actually, Chris, I do release my toe with the weight still in the foot. Don't judge my dancing without seeing it.


I really don't think I've ever seen anyone do proper footwork in even the flared heel "standard" shoes... and I've watched a *lot* of otherwise good dancers' feet.

Of course those getting it wrong would get it wrong in any shoes - they are not aware of what they are failing to do, and so don't realize how their shoes are impeding it. Were they to try to develop the proper habits, they would change shoe preference fairly quickly, out of near necessity.

[Chris Stratton]

And I said that it would probably not be noticable to a beginner because it is rare to see beginners that use their feet well enough to tell the difference. Yes yes. You can show me examples. Fine. But it's not common.

It's quite common when it's taught. And almost unheard of when it isn't. As for examples, look in the pre-bronze events of northeast college comps, or the exercises done in classes training brand new dancers towards those.

[ACtenDance]

I really don't think I've ever seen anyone do proper footwork in even the flared heel "standard" shoes... and I've watched a *lot* of otherwise good dancers' feet.

Of course those getting it wrong would get it wrong in any shoes - they are not aware of what they are failing to do, and so don't realize how their shoes are impeding it. Were they to try to develop the proper habits, they would change shoe preference fairly quickly, out of near necessity.

perhaps it may be your understanding that is not proper, or maybe it's not quite as important as some have been led to believe.

[DancingJools]

Since the original post was for shoes for a college dance team of mostly beginners, and specifically for competitions, I am wondering how strict are college competitions, at the beginner level (through bronze) when it comes to footwear? I mean, are you allowed to wear a Latin shoe when doing Standard, assuming you can dance a semblance of bronze Standard in Latin shoes (I'm not getting into the middle of that argument, myself)?
If rules don't allow that, then the girls will have to get two styles. If the rules aren't that strict, then a compromise could be the practice shoes, which do work for beginners in both styles. They don't flex very well, and they are stiff, but a compromise is a compromise. If I were to advise beginners, I'd recommend the practice shoes, rather than the Latin sandals, for both styles. The compromise, I think, is going to be less about the suitability of the shoes, and more about the appearance of it. Practice shoes are not nearly as "sexy" as Latin shoes, so that might be an issue.
Another problem is that the new Latin styles from Supadance, which are the ones you will most likely find in stores, tend towards the "flimsy" strappy look. They really aren't very good for faking Standard. Supadance used to market Latin shoes that had a lot more coverage in the forefoot, a thicker heel, and provided more support if you tried to do Standard in them. These are hard to find, nowadays.
And while I realize that shopping in stores is tons of fun, I wonder if it is the best way for a college dancer (who theoretically doesn't have much money to spend) to shop for shoes. Stores, especially in NYC, are probably the most expensive way to get shoes.
If you can get them to buy shoes online, from a vendor that sells Very Fine Shoes, they'll be able to get two pairs (Latin AND Standard) for about the price of a single pair of Supadance at a NYC store. The quality is slightly less, but they're quite serviceable. And they are sexy.

[fascination]

I know almost nothing about smooth shoes, are they supposed to fit about the same way as standard?

Also (mostly for people who've hung around college teams), is there any reason why most beginners get latin instead of smooth shoes?hi anna...pardon all this high falutin talk...I am mindful that we are talking about beginners here who aren't going to be overly worried right away regarding what happens to their heel on their feather...a smooth shoe generally has more foot coverage than a latin but less than a full court shoe...and they come in varying degrees of flare to non flare heel...we do have a thread wherin Larinda showed a large blow up of one of her shoes for this very reason...if you cannot find it in a search...please go to her photo gallery...

my own experience...dancing all four styles... is that you can do darn near anything in any shoe...particularly at a beginner level...IMO its a little harder to dig in with that inside edge of the big toe in a court shoe...and its not alot of fun to do a heel turn in a latin or any flared heel for my experience, but I know another lady who does standard in very flared heels for the past 8 years and is just fine...personally, I think alot of young ladies just pick latins because they are more stylish...I happen to live in my court shoes and find most latins evil

[Chris Stratton]

perhaps it may be your understanding that is not proper, or maybe it's not quite as important as some have been led to believe.

But I have seen people do it in standard shoes that have the heel in the proper place. My point is that people who are fully aware of what they are supposed to do will choose shoes that support that - while people who aren't may quite happily choose shoes that would make something they haven't yet learned to attempt quite difficult.

With some of the college programs teaching real footwork from day one - drilling it in group classes no less - this is not something that should be hushed up as not applicable to only beginners - they will either be learning it, or be competing against those who are. In open levels where there's more to worry about it might not be as obvious, but when you have a full field doing just two or three patterns in american bronze foxtrot, you have a transparency that makes everything important, even though they are beginners.

[Chris Stratton]

Since the original post was for shoes for a college dance team of mostly beginners, and specifically for competitions, I am wondering how strict are college competitions, at the beginner level (through bronze) when it comes to footwear?

There are no global rules about anything; each competition writes it own, and footwear is hardly ever mentioned, except for requiring heel covers on behalf of the venue owner.

And while I realize that shopping in stores is tons of fun, I wonder if it is the best way for a college dancer (who theoretically doesn't have much money to spend) to shop for shoes. Stores, especially in NYC, are probably the most expensive way to get shoes.

They are going to need to try something on for sizing. Though if the desired model isn't in stock in the necesssary size, ordering it could make sense.

[fascination]

well, again...I have seen many ladies hold up just fine doing either Am. or Intl. FT in a flare...I wouldn't...but it's done

[wooh]

Chris, I respect your observations, but out of curiosity, are they merely that (observations)? Have you danced in women's shoes? Because if not, I'm surprised you feel so sure of yourself in disagreement with a group that regularly does dance in them.
And BTW, as a social dancer that tries to have decent technique without changing shoes every song when I'm out, I prefer Supadance 1028s. Latin/rhythm is too difficult for me in court shoes, and I have a lot of trouble with smooth/standard in latin shoes I wear because my weight feels forward. Although it's much easier for me to do s/s in latin shoes than l/r in court shoes. (Of course, I'll probably be told that's because my technique is lacking in both, but the point is that we're looking for a shoe that can be used for both, right?) The 1028s are a nice balance that seem to work well for me for either. Very flexible but not too flexible. Nice and balanced. Quite comfortable too. And as someone with narrow heels, wide feet, the leather at the bottom stretches to fit pretty quick without the heel cups being too wide.

[Chris Stratton]

Chris, I respect your observations, but out of curiosity, are they merely that (observations)? Have you danced in women's shoes?

Never found any big enough.

Because if not, I'm surprised you feel so sure of yourself in disagreement with a group that regularly does dance in them.

But I'm not in disagreement with women who have similarly focused dance training - in fact, my opinions are formed by about equal parts of their comments, my observations, and thinking through of how the shoe is designed to support dance action. The whole issue of flared heel shoes for example was first raised to my attention by a partner - so I compared her "good" shoes to her "bad" shoes and noted that it wasn't the shape of the heel, but it's placement.

[Anna]

They are going to need to try something on for sizing. Though if the desired model isn't in stock in the necesssary size, ordering it could make sense.

Yeah, I'd rather take them to a store and make sure they all have at least one good-quality pair that really fits (and they're prepared for the fact that they will be spending at least $100). Later, once they have a model and size they really like, they can order new ones online. But I think for the very first pair it makes the most sense to shell out the extra money to try on a lot of different models and styles.

[Anna]

But I'm not in disagreement with women who have similarly focused dance training - in fact, my opinions are formed by about equal parts of their comments, my observations, and thinking through of how the shoe is designed to support dance action. The whole issue of flared heel shoes for example was first raised to my attention by a partner - so I compared her "good" shoes to her "bad" shoes and noted that it wasn't the shape of the heel, but it's placement.

I actually agree with you that heel placement does make a difference. However, the fact is that these people are not going to buy two pairs, so they're going have to make a compromise somewhere...either get smooth shoes that aren't terrific for latin or latin shoes that aren't terrific for standard.

[Anna]

Also, at our last competition we had beginners making finals wearing street shoes, so although it'd be nice for everyone to have shoes that really let them learn good technique, I'm a bit doubtful about whether THE most optimal shoes will make a big difference at this point.

[Chris Stratton]

I actually agree with you that heel placement does make a difference. However, the fact is that these people are not going to buy two pairs, so they're going have to make a compromise somewhere...either get smooth shoes that aren't terrific for latin or latin shoes that aren't terrific for standard.

I admit there isn't a good answer for what beginners should buy if they are only buying one pair. But that is not the same thing as the dismissing the concern because they are only beginners. When experienced dancers debate the concerns, they are all real - when beginners walk into the store, there's the unfortunate necessity of distilling things down to a decision.

As for street shoes, those aren't always horrible. If they are sturdy (usually meaning comparatively low or wide heel) they may support footwork quite well. And while beginner dancing is simple enough to make all issues very clear, competitions are not necessarily going to be judged on footwork - more on the overall calmness and competence of which it is just one frequent element.

[Anna]

So if someone already has closed-toe street shoes, should they be wearing those for standard and buy latin shoes for latin?

[Chris Stratton]

If someone already has shoes that work well for a style, then they don't need to buy something new just to have "dance shoes"... I can certainly think of street shoes, character shoes, and other that would be more supportive of standard technique than latin shoes would be.

[delamusica]

Never found any big enough.



But I'm not in disagreement with women who have similarly focused dance training

So you assume that those of us who disagree with you (who you've never met or danced with or seen dance) simply lack the depth of your training? That's a tad pompus, don't you think?

[Chris Stratton]

So you assume that those of us who disagree with you (who you've never met or danced with or seen dance) simply lack the depth of your training? That's a tad pompus, don't you think?

Actually no. I'm not claiming some kind of secret knowledge - only subjects that are known but neglected. Spend some time really watching dancers, and you will see exactly what I am talking about - dancers who have learned to fully utilize their feet choose shoes that support that.

[Musique]

Anna, I'd highly recommend practice shoes to beginner girls.

For standard, it's much easier to do a proper heel lead or toe release with those wide comfy heels. I carefully observed bronze and silver ladies' footwork in several collegiate events. The estimate is that only 10% of them are doing the propor heel lead. I think the reason is that for beginners it's hard to strike forward precisely with those little heels of standard shoes, so they slide forward with balls instead.

Consider the number of latin shoes thread we had on this forum(: It is hard for us veterans to find the right shoes, how do we expect beginners to pick the right one from the start? Not everyone at the beginning can even stand or walk comfortably in 2.5'' or 3'' heels. I think they will be better off focusing on learning the right technique, and later worrying about finding the right pair of shoes.

I admit it's not good wear practice shoes to comps. But for newcomer or bronze heats, dancing usually matters more than grooming. And they are great for social dancing. If someone is really hooked, he/she will buy tons of standard and latin shoes later, inevitably. A pair of practice shoes will worth its value for beginners, and for more advance dancers on a 6-hour practice day or when their feet hurt.

And btw, in my experience, you don't necessarily need to buy practice shoes from those top brands. They are easier to made comfortable and balanced. The economic ones will be good too.

[Chris Stratton]

For standard, it's much easier to do a proper heel lead or toe release with those wide comfy heels. I carefully observed bronze and silver ladies' footwork in several collegiate events. The estimate is that only 10% of them are doing the propor heel lead. I think the reason is that for beginners it's hard to strike forward precisely with those little heels of standard shoes, so they slide forward with balls instead.

I'd agree with the general observation, but would dispute the cause of missing heel leads. An artificial heel lead might be created by bringing the foot forward with the heel on the ground - but that's not the way it's supposed to work. Instead, a well executed heel lead moves forward with the ball of the foot on the ground, and becomes a heel lead only near the end of its travel as a result of the body action. A heel lead that doesn't quite happen tends to be a result of a body that is still going down heavily into the step when it should have started thinking about getting ready to go up.

Shoes could of course contribute - if someone feels unstead in their shoes, high and wobbly on their standing foot, they aren't going to be doing a very good job of sending their body weight. And if they feel unstead on the heel, they may be afraid of the arrival. But the problem is not simply the shoes - it's ultimately in the idea of what body action is being attempted, and possibly in the partner's idea of the appropriate body action too. A lot of those missing heel leads are the natural result of the improper body action being used.

[Anna]

Hmm, I'll definitely recommend practice shoes as an option. But I wonder how useful they really are, I've never felt a need to own a pair of practice shoes (I always practice in old comp shoes). So it could make sense to buy one pair of shoes that is right for at least one style and then buy one more pair later, rather than starting with practice shoes and having to buy two extra pairs.

[Chris Stratton]

I still have my doubts about recommending traditional practice shoes for latin, but it's hard to deny that they will be more durable than typical ladies competition shoes - particularly if your team has to practice in hallways, cafeterias, on carpet, etc. If you can get past the "granny shoes" hangup (or get the white ones), they seem like they would level the footwork playing field a bit between the girls and the boys in the first few months.

[Anna]

Is there any real, concrete problem about smooth shoes though?

[tanya_the_dancer]

Hmm, I'll definitely recommend practice shoes as an option. But I wonder how useful they really are, I've never felt a need to own a pair of practice shoes (I always practice in old comp shoes). So it could make sense to buy one pair of shoes that is right for at least one style and then buy one more pair later, rather than starting with practice shoes and having to buy two extra pairs.

I practice in my old comp shoes, too. This way I can get most use out of them.

[wooh]

I've got a friend that wears smooth shoes for most things. She has pretty decent footwork from what I've seen. I'm not sure how hard she has to work to do it though.

[tanya_the_dancer]

I've got a friend that wears smooth shoes for most things. She has pretty decent footwork from what I've seen. I'm not sure how hard she has to work to do it though.

I used to do that, too.

Now I use http://toe2toe.com/Dansport1.htm C202 and C203 for both smooth and standard. They turned out to be the most comfortable brand for my feet.

[RIdancer82]

and the open toes are kind of risky too given the desired foot articulation


They're not very common, but there are closed toe latin shoes out there. I forgot what brand(s) makes them, but a friend of mine had a pair so I know that they are out there. I'm sure that the problem w/ the heel in smooth/standard would still exist, but it might eliminate the problem w/ the open toe. I dunno how it would actually work or if they would even like them, but it's an idea.

[waltzgirl]

This is the practice shoe I like:

http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/dancehappy_1919_3293602

It's much more attractive than the usual practice shoe. It also comes in black. I found that buying it a half size smaller than street size fit perfectly. The width is very adjustable because only the laces attach the front sides.

And if someone has street shoes that work for dancing, they can get suede(chrome leather) soles put on for $20-25 at a shoe repair place.

[chachachacat]

This is the practice shoe I like:

http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/dancehappy_1919_3293602

It's much more attractive than the usual practice shoe.
Those are very cute! Brand??
******************************************
First, always happy to discuss shoes,:D so no need to apologize.

Second, the problem trying to do latin in standard shoes, is pushing foward and into the floor. You are pushing your toes into hard satin, and it hurts! You'll never develop decent footwork.

Maybe Capezios Smooth nude leather shoes would work best for both? Not sure, never worn them nyself, but they have a look that translates well for both, and leather closed toes are more forgiving than satin.

I'd say, if beginners are going to compete right away, get a pair of each in Very Fines. You'll do a lot better with the proper style. Worry about quality later.

If beginners are not going to compete right away, the above practice shoes seem good.

[DancingJools]

Anna - I doubt you will spend $100 for a pair of dance shoes in a NYC shop. Think more around $130 - $150 (including tax). Though may be there is a student discount.
The shoes above are Elegance, I think, though Supadance makes a similar shoe. I think the Supadance quality is better than Elegance, and the price is about the same. In the end, it will depend on what styles and sizes you will find in the stores you visit.
I do think that Smooth shoes will present the same problem in doing Latin as the Standard shoes.
Here is the Supadance shoe:

http://www.supadance.com/acatalog/1224.jpg

[Anna]

I'd say, if beginners are going to compete right away, get a pair of each in Very Fines. You'll do a lot better with the proper style. Worry about quality later.



Do any stores around NY carry Very Fine? Or would they have to order them online and hope they fit?

[Anna]

Anna - I doubt you will spend $100 for a pair of dance shoes in a NYC shop. Think more around $130 - $150 (including tax). Though may be there is a student discount.


Yeah, I just checked and Worldtone is selling Supadance 1008's for $130 :shock:

[Anna]

One more question, how does Very Fine compare to Capezio (in terms of quality and durability)?

[Chris Stratton]

Now I use http://toe2toe.com/Dansport1.htm C202 and C203 for both smooth and standard. They turned out to be the most comfortable brand for my feet.

If you look carefully at that website, you will see that their alleged standard shoes appear to have the same heel as their latin shoes. Such a shoe will be very stable and quite comfortable within its designed range of motion; the problem is that the designed range doesn't include a full standard action.

[and123]

That conclusion seems so out of line with the well thought out remainder of your post. It's hard enough to learn good footwork with footwear that accomodates it - but it's going to be downright impossible without it. But if you aren't going to be developing good habits, why bother putting any real work into studying dance? Teachers who are serious about developing dancers develop the seeds of key habits from the first lesson - and leading amonst these is that it's what you do with the standing foot, not the moving foot, that is the foundation of mastery.

When skills such as footwork are taught from the beginning, you see beginners of a few months experience competing with better footwork and fundamental skills than usually seen on dancers of many years experience.

[I was out of town all weekend, so am trying to catch up with this now]
OK, if you look at the sentences preceding and following the one you have issues with (bolded) as written here:

====
That said, my vote is for newbies to get latin sandals unless they're already particularly anal retentive about proper Smooth/Standard technique. One of the biggest issues I've seen with newer dancers is that they lack proper footwork, so the type of shoe often isn't critical right away. A serious dancer, or anyone who can afford it, should of course have both types of shoe.
====

....you will see that I qualified my statement. I *fully* agree that any dancer who cares at all about technique needs to wear the proper shoes. We are talking about newbie collegiate dancers here. I mean no disrespect, but how many are going to stick with it? How many just want to go out there and have fun and not give a flying fart about toe releases and heel leads? How many are even *told* about proper technique right away? Certainly there are exceptions, and these couples always stand out and kick butt at comps. Yes, dancers SHOULD be taught proper technique and footwork and connection and all of those little intricacies that make dancing spectacular, but I don't think that's how it happens. First of all, it's way too much to throw at an absolute beginner at once (especially if their first comp is just a few weeks away); plus in trying to strike a balance between teaching steps, keeping people happy and interested, and providing instruction in technique, something has to suffer. Based on what I've observed in couples at Newcomer and Bronze levels (and above), it's technique.

To whoever asked about shoe restrictions at collegiate comps -- I've seen it all. Stiletto heels. Platform wedges. Sneakers. Flip-flops. Just socks.
Really. It's bananas! :banana: ;)

[tanya_the_dancer]

If you look carefully at that website, you will see that their alleged standard shoes appear to have the same heel as their latin shoes. Such a shoe will be very stable and quite comfortable within its designed range of motion; the problem is that the designed range doesn't include a full standard action.

My teacher's partner uses same shoes and she finds them very comfortable as well (they compete in smooth and standard). So if it is good enough for her, that's good enough for me, too. And I can get all action I need out of them.

[fascination]

Really. It's bananas! :banana: ;)amen

[waltzgirl]

Those are very cute! Brand??
******************************************


They are Elegance. They are called something like Godiva Ballroom Pump. I got mine at dancehappy.com (good customer service). They also make a version more like the Supadance (higher cut on the foot) and a closed toe, open side version.

[chachachacat]

Anna, Very Fine is online. They have an exact replica of the Elegance Godiva for about half the price. I found a dancewear store here that carries VF, and tried some on for size. They are sized in American, but you want them on the small side.
You could Google or call around to see if anyone carries them in NY.

[bigtone]

First of all let me say I tried searching for my answer but I couldn't really find a clear answer :) I've been lurking for a while and I think I need to start posting more...

My wife and I are about halfway through our social foundations class, and I am sick of dancing in my wingtips and I decided to get some shoes. Had a horrible experience at a local dance (ballet/jazz/ballroom/etc.) shop. Went there looking to see some different styles and you would have thought I was asking her her wisdom teeth. But I ended up picking up some capezio ballroom shoes. They are ordering my size and should be here by the end of the week. I can return them if need be, but after looking around on the net I'm not sure if I got the right kind or not. These are pretty flat. Would I be better off with more of a heel if I just have one pair of dance shoes? I read somewhere that if you have one pair you are better off with something more latin. But when I think of the instructors at my studio I think I see them with shoes with less of a heel.

Thanks in advance

[etp777]

Bigtone, imho, and that of pros I work with around here, if you have one pair it should be smooth shoes (lower heel). I JUST got my first pair of latin shoes a couple weeks ago, after more than a year of dancing. So don't worry about it, and have fun. :)

[_malakawa_]

you ordered a dance sneakers or dance shoes??

when it comes to brand i prefer supadance, international dance shoe and freed of london.

if you want more information send me pm.

[Glasswren]

The 'if you have only one pair of shoes, you're better of with Latin' is for Ladies. :)

[fascination]

google showtime dance shoes or attend a local comp...there will be a vendor

[fascination]

um...and welcome neighbor

[etp777]

If you're ever up Chicago way, can also stop by Russian Pointe over on Michigan Ave. She carries 22 styles/models of men's dance shoes. Least, that's what she said at a local fundraiser we sponsored, haven't actually made it there yet. Even though it's basically across street from my studio. :)

[fascination]

also come to windy city this weekend

[etp777]

Heh, yes, welcome and come to Windy City. We're gonna have fun. Then you can take a cab or red line up and go by Russian Pointe. :)

[LucyDiamond]

Since you're new to dance, I'd highly recommend going with the Capezios you ordered, assuming they fit and felt good. If you get the chance to go to a local competition, that will give you the opportunity to try on your shoes. Also, you don't need to spend the amount of money you will with professional shoes, UNLESS they fit and feel good. Example, I can't wear Supadance because the arch is in the wrong place and they run too narrow for my foot. I'm almost in tears within minutes because my feet hurt so bad. I get inexpensive Very Fine shoes (from the Internet) because they feel good. I may have to replace them more often but comfort is key, IMHO. HTH

[danceronice]

Since you're new to dance, I'd highly recommend going with the Capezios you ordered, assuming they fit and felt good. If you get the chance to go to a local competition, that will give you the opportunity to try on your shoes. Also, you don't need to spend the amount of money you will with professional shoes, UNLESS they fit and feel good. Example, I can't wear Supadance because the arch is in the wrong place and they run too narrow for my foot. I'm almost in tears within minutes because my feet hurt so bad. I get inexpensive Very Fine shoes (from the Internet) because they feel good. I may have to replace them more often but comfort is key, IMHO. HTH

IAWTC. I was wearing Supadance Latin sandals and it felt like walking on razor blades after a while. My Capezios are cheaper, but they fit my foot much better.

[dancerman]

First of all let me say I tried searching for my answer but I couldn't really find a clear answer :) I've been lurking for a while and I think I need to start posting more...

My wife and I are about halfway through our social foundations class, and I am sick of dancing in my wingtips and I decided to get some shoes. Had a horrible experience at a local dance (ballet/jazz/ballroom/etc.) shop. Went there looking to see some different styles and you would have thought I was asking her her wisdom teeth. But I ended up picking up some capezio ballroom shoes. They are ordering my size and should be here by the end of the week. I can return them if need be, but after looking around on the net I'm not sure if I got the right kind or not. These are pretty flat. Would I be better off with more of a heel if I just have one pair of dance shoes? I read somewhere that if you have one pair you are better off with something more latin. But when I think of the instructors at my studio I think I see them with shoes with less of a heel.

Thanks in advance

First, welcome, welcome, welcome. You picked a great place to ask questions. You will get answers to almost anything at DF, even for those questions you don't ask.
:rolleyes:
Second, if this is your first pair of shoes, low heel is the way to go, and Capezio are fine. My first pair were Capezio 1" heel and they suited me for my first year. If you are dancing in wingtips now, the new shoes will change your dancing for the better. You will actually be able to feel the floor. IMO don't even think about Latin shoes for some time, no need to.
I'm vey familiar with the name brands such as Supadance, Freed and International, have them all actually, but you don't need them. If Capezio are too tight then you may want to try a Stephanie. I have a wide foot and go with Stephanie because of that.LIke ETP777 said, one pair, low heels for the first 6-12 months. In the meantime just enjoy them.

[bigtone]

Thanks for the plethora of replies. I think I'll stick with my capezios for now (at least until I recieve them on friday and see how they fit). Hopefully the other place my wife checks out will have at least a few styles to try on - So she can get a pair that isn't going to kill her foot.

Another general question - once you find a comfortable size, are all dance shoes generally the same fit? Or do sizes run different like in runnings shoes (nike compared to new balance, etc)

[etp777]

Definitely different sizes between different brands (and then some brands that are only sold in UK sizes, which just makes it all more fun :) )

[bigtone]

lol, thought I was replying to the thread I made, looks like someone else bumped a good shoe thread for me...


Oh I see, it was incorporated into another thread... Talented moderators!!!

[etp777]

Bigtone, I think one of the moderators merged your thread into this one since it was the same question again. Just tyring to keep all the information in one place.

[bigtone]

Good to know... This forum is great, even though I've only asked a few questions each time people were quick to jump on the question and give really helpful answers. Glad to see we have such a great group around here.

[biggestbox]

For me, freed is the ultimate beginners shoe. i say beginner because it is pretty medium between stiffness and flexibility. they have a good arch support with a flexible front which is good to start with while you learn whether you like very soft or very hard shoes. I don't think cheap when I think beginner, I just think you want something that is sort of in between. Freed shoes also last a LONG time. Fit is the most important, but a lot of times, beginners don't know how they want their shoes to fit.

[Kitty]

Or do people usually end up buying a second pair by the time they learn enough technique that doing standard in latin shoes would be painful?

i think this sums it up correctly.

there are also aspects of heel placemet as well. but those aspects are different between brands anyway, and are mostly a matter of habit and preference..


freed lasts a long time, unless you get patent leather mens shoes. they become scratched and agly quicky - the top layer peels off!!!

also noticed past weekend capezio has now women's stnadard court shoes.. and reasonably priced:-)
nice for beginners

[dancerman]

Thanks for the plethora of replies. I think I'll stick with my capezios for now (at least until I recieve them on friday and see how they fit). Hopefully the other place my wife checks out will have at least a few styles to try on - So she can get a pair that isn't going to kill her foot.

Another general question - once you find a comfortable size, are all dance shoes generally the same fit? Or do sizes run different like in runnings shoes (nike compared to new balance, etc)
Different brands definitely don't fit the same. You have to try them. Widths afe different and the amount of cushioning is not the same. The tips can be more pointed or more rounded which affects a little how they look.
Enjoy your new shoes and keep us posted how they feel to you.

[bigtone]

i think we might actually pop up to chicago for Tomorrow's event, would it be unreasonable to expect some shoe vendors there for my wife?

Well, not for my wife obviously...


For shoes of course...

[dancerman]

i think we might actually pop up to chicago for Tomorrow's event, would it be unreasonable to expect some shoe vendors there for my wife?

Well, not for my wife obviously...


For shoes of course...
LOL
I'm an North Easterner so I don't know what the Chicago event is but many comps have vendors. If it is on the Internet they may lsit vendors attending if you do a Google search by the event name.
And youre right. most shoe vendors do stick to shoes, not wives.
:rolleyes:

[etp777]

I can't remember if there were any shoe vendors, definitely lots off dress vendors, etc. Russian pointe up on Michigan ave has shoes though, and pretty sure they're open at least today, if not Sunday.