Pro Competition Question

[danceislove]

When you are a competing professional does everyone compete at gold levels? There does not appear to be a level system for pros as there are with pro/am and am/am; it all just says "open". So basically if you are not a superstar pro, then it is a waste of time to compete, is that a fairly accurate assumption???
:confused:

[tangotime]

We essentially have 2 categories-- Rising star and an " open " Division. There are however " closed " comps, which generally imply, are for residents of that particular country .Prof. are not governed " material " wise, by the same standards as students . The choices are those usually suggested by ones coach, although, you do have the freedom to choose your own material .And, its never a waste of time to compete. What governs the pro. mind set, is generally, cost. Meaning financial and realism. In other words, no one would fly to a distant comp. with unrealistic expectations .It can be a very expensive proposition to enter the world of " Pro " competition .

[Joe]

There's also the occasional Professional Basics division, i.e. Syllabus/Gold.

[tangotime]

That would probably come under the banner of rising star .

[Joe]

No. Rising star is an open-material category, just as Open is. Basics is just that--basics. Separate and distinct.

[tangotime]

I was referring to the level of performance of the participants, that idea was tried in the u.k many yrs back , trying to get top pros to dance a round of basics ( like ice dance ) fell flat, no one wanted to participate .and, I think, for obvious reasons .

[Larinda McRaven]

So there is also an occasional "Newcomer Pro" division, as was seen at the CT comp a few weeks ago, designed for baby pros getting on the floor for their absolute first time, lower than Rising Star.

And yes, basics is a syllabus catagory for pros. The basics, although syllabus, is often a VERY competitive field. It is (should be) rather easy for any open level top pro to walk out and do basic syllabus work and wipe everyone away. At the Manhattan comp in the summer the field often has a quarter final in the Standard, generally just a final for the Latin. The Capital Dancesport also has offered a basics division and the American styles were well represented too.

So I know of 4 different pro divisions over the years. Although only the Rising Star and Open are normally offered.

[tangotime]

let me make my position very clear-- as an adjudicator, I would really like to see the inclusion of a " basic " thru silver level , precede most championship events ( exclude National ,World , British and the International, time constraints may not allow ) think, compulsaries shown off to their best advantage ( or maybe not !! ) would be very enlightning to the lower divisions .

[Chris Stratton]

I was referring to the level of performance of the participants, that idea was tried in the u.k many yrs back , trying to get top pros to dance a round of basics ( like ice dance ) fell flat, no one wanted to participate .and, I think, for obvious reasons .

I wonder if you suspect the same obvious reason that I do?

(My reason: good clean basics are actually harder than much of the more popular open material - plus they are more transparent. It is much harder to achieve the kind of large flowing movement to which experienced dancers aspire using for example foot closure waltz elements, than it is using the passing and syncopated elements often chosen)

[alemana]

danceislove - your general impression is right. larinda said it well and clearly- there isn't an elaborate hierarchical system for pros like there is for pro-am and am-am.

there are attempts at times to introduce additional divisions (i suspect mostly for moneymaking reasons) like "future champions," which are intended to be super-beginning-pros... but there usually aren't enough people to enter these divisions to make them worthwhile (from what i've seen.) "beginner" pros typically start in Rising Star, but they compete in the Open division as well. once they win enough in RS, or decide they want to be taken "more seriously," they stop entering Rising Star and just do Open.

[tangotime]

Ya got that right amigo !!!!, thats part of the reason ( I,m guessing ) that it got rejected here many yrs ago .

[Twilight_Elena]

What kind of level of dancing are we talking about in the Rising Star category? The fact that it's open doesn't say much...

T_E

[Porfirio Landeros]

danceislove - your general impression is right.And to add to this, there are also no age categories in the pro ranks, but now there's precedent to petition to turn Amateur and compete as a senior on the USA dance circuit, so who says you have to retire ;-)

[alemana]

Porfirio: haha *meow* haha :)

my understanding is that the Rising Star pros are those who are either a) new to the division or new in their partnership and/or b) aspiring to the the finalist level but not quite there. the level of dancing is still... pro. It varies by style, like everything. the more competition there is in a given style, the higher the level of dancing will be in the rising star. the level of dancing in RS smooth and rhythm is lower, in general, than RS latin and standard.

RS couples are not necessarily younger than the batch of Open finalists. if the top 6 in a given style has been 'set' and unmoving for some time, you can get a backlog in Rising Star.

To take an example... the couple who won the Rising Star in latin at the US Dancesport Championships at Miami last year, Christian Baerens and Krystina Staykova, are ranked 8th in the US overall and 58th in the world.

[danceislove]

So one should be through gold syllabus if they expect to do well when competing pro, correct?

[alemana]

quite a few professionals never work their way through the syllabus system at all. they debut as professionals!

so i mean, i guess the answer to your question is not necessarily *no* or *yes*....


have you been to many open pro events, out of curiosity?

[Chris Stratton]

So one should be through gold syllabus if they expect to do well when competing pro, correct?

What does it mean to be through the gold syllabus?

(BTW, extremely few amateur couples ever place out of gold by dancing in gold - instead, they place out by making pre-champ finals after they get bored in gold, while quite a few open competitors not making contested finals are technically still elgible for gold)

[Laura]

So one should be through gold syllabus if they expect to do well when competing pro, correct?
What do you mean by "do well?" You mean go to a local or regional Rising Star Competition and finish in the top three? If so, then I've seen people who were US "Amateur" Adult Championship-level semi-finalists make that kind of jump. From the "Pro/Am" side, I've seen people who were US "A" Open Championship finalists make the jump.

In short, in my opinion the bar for entry into being successful (as defined by placings) in the pro competitive ranks is quite high. However, there are LOTS of pros who never competed as amateurs or pro/ams who, through huge amounts of hard work and training, started competing and worked their way up over time. It really all depends on what you want, what you are about, why you are dancing, and what your expectations are. It's a good idea to talk to a pro who knows you and your dancing who coaches other pros, and see what they say. They would have a lot of insight into how your dancing stacks up to what is expected, and what it would take to get you ready, and how you would go about preparing for the pro competitions.

[tangotime]

Straight to pro-- only in the states-- never happen in u.k to my knowledge, and therein lies the weakness

[tangotime]

The original intent of the division, was to allow aspiring prof. a doorway into the higher ranks of open. It became very discouraging to enter a comp as a young pro, look at the entries, and ask one self how many rounds you would last,. Of course , as the r. star entries have got larger, i guess you could ask the same q. today . The same is of course also true of pre champ in the amat div. Good confidence builders

[Chris Stratton]

Straight to pro-- only in the states-- never happen in u.k to my knowledge, and therein lies the weakness

Is this not a simple extension of the practice of hiring and training non dancers to be entry level teachers? Most of those will never compete, but the few who manage to progress will go on to become the pro competitors who never competed as amateurs?

Related to that, I would guess that some newer pros do gain some introductory experience working the syllabus pro-am events with their students.

[tangotime]

In all my yrs in english schools, dont recall that happening. Remember, most teachers , if not all ,as opposed to the states, only work evenings and w/e .They are primarily interested in income and of course, some do go on to become full time. Most schools in the the u.k. are still mom and pop operations ., and many are family run, so the business end is more important .This is also true of formation dancers by and large, becoming a very social animal .Also, with the ladies starting at a younger age, many get married and have children . The last five schools I have been involved with here in the past yr, were all run by an owner, sometimes wife alone and some as a couple . The chain school mind set does not operate here .So, the comp. dancers are usually born out of class to private route, many ( like I did ) starting at 3,4 and 5.

[Joe]

And to add to this, there are also no age categories in the pro ranks, but now there's precedent to petition to turn Amateur and compete as a senior on the USA dance circuit, so who says you have to retire ;-)
So will we see you back in our ranks in about 10 years? ;)

[Joe]

BTW, extremely few amateur couples ever place out of gold by dancing in gold - instead, they place out by making pre-champ finals after they get bored in gold
Ha! Tell me about it! :rolleyes:

[tangotime]

Cannot imagine any pro., after yrs on the circuit, would want to revert to amat. status . Firstly, it would affect, adjudicating, and teaching status . when it comes time to hang up the " shoes ", do it gracefully . I saw bobby madeiros, a friend of mine, who did a show ( one of his last ) at the atlanta star ball ( my comp. ) Twas a sad sight, bobby had put on at least 50lbs and was squeezed into a cat suit, not a pretty sight , i might add. The quickness and speed had deteriated ,that became a former shadow of his capabilities .I also think this is the proverbial slippery slope , of pro,s being allowed to return to that division.

[saludas]

Cannot imagine any pro., after yrs on the circuit, would want to revert to amat. status . Firstly, it would affect, adjudicating, and teaching status . when it comes time to hang up the " shoes ", do it gracefully . I saw bobby madeiros, a friend of mine, who did a show ( one of his last ) at the atlanta star ball ( my comp. ) Twas a sad sight, bobby had put on at least 50lbs and was squeezed into a cat suit, not a pretty sight , i might add. The quickness and speed had deteriated ,that became a former shadow of his capabilities .I also think this is the proverbial slippery slope , of pro,s being allowed to return to that division.

Katarina Mueller.

[Laura]

Tangotime, if you don't know the person to who Saludas was referring, she's a former US Rising Star Professional Standard winner who went back to amateur and now dances in Over-35 Standard with her husband.

[Katarzyna]

I have a feeling Tangotime knows her well

[Laura]

She's not the only person who has done this, but I think she is the most high-profile. I know of several other people who were pros at one point, for periods of time ranging from a few months to a couple of years, who went back to being amateurs. Some had never done more as a pro than teach a few wedding couples, and others had been in actual (but short-lived) professional partnerships.

[Another Elizabeth]

Didi Von Deck was another somewhat conspicuous example (not that her pro results were anything remotely like Katerina's). In fact, most of the examples I can think of are women - I wonder if that means anything.

[Katarzyna]

Most men don't go back from pro to am as they can make A LOT of money in pro...

[Laura]

Didi Von Deck was another somewhat conspicuous example (not that her pro results were anything remotely like Katerina's). In fact, most of the examples I can think of are women - I wonder if that means anything.
Yeah, you're right...I just ran through my mental list and something like 80% of the people I am thinking of are women.

[tangotime]

Of course, there are exceptions to every rule. I am talking about people who rank in world class, not the a/m/ teacher who wins a comp. or, any one who does not rank on a world level . To return from pro, to amat. has to be sanctioned , and it is not a rubber stamp . The # that have changed are infinitessimal compared to the numbers who have not .-

[Chris Stratton]

Some of the more notable people who have switched back are actually advancing, not declining in the quality of their dancing - they are on the way up, not delaying retirement. Even for those who were fairly succesful as pros, advancing standards of performance mean that they may have to do even better to stand out as amateurs (especially internationally) than they previously danced in pro divisions.

[tangotime]

I am not debating the issue of better or worse, it has little to do with the facts., that when anyone has competed from junior thru amat to pro ranks, it would seem highly improbable to return to amat. Its interesting, that how amat. view the proposition differently than most pros. do. If any of you had gone thru what most seasoned pros have gone thru to get established in the prof ranks , you might have a different perspective .For all of you who have competed as amat. on fairly local levels, think about how 50 % of your life would be living out of the proverbial suitcase ( okay when 18, 19, 25 ) but as you get older, it becomes a huge strain physically , and I am sure emotionally reaching for the golden ring. Most "top" ladies in the past, have literally sacrificed having families to endure the rigours .There are many well known eng pro,s who went that route . i know, its a choice they made , I could give you stories of personal regret. And chris.is not your statement a little convoluted ?-- they got better because they turned amat ?- - why would they not have got better if they stayed pro ? just curious

[Chris Stratton]

The differences between the two divisions are no longer all that great - typically about six places as many amateur to pro transitions have demonstrated. As a result, the quality of someone's dancing depends much more on the person and their circumstances and their efforts than in what division they are competing. So someone who finds an opportunity to work with a good partner in an amateur division could indeed work towards better dancing than they might have accomplished if they had stayed in their particular professional circumstance (people who are happy with their situations aren't going to be changing status afterall)

[tangotime]

This amat v pro analogy has gone on since there was 2 div. Yes , i can even recall many yrs ago where a top amat in the u.k ( charlie ellis ) danced one of the finest f/t/ ever. Would have made a great pro. But reality says, that most amat in the u.k NEVER turned pro. ,they looked upon at as a recreation, and most still do .As far as difference in standard . I would disagree that 99% of amat. could make that transition,and the reason those that do make fairly early impacts is primarily due to the thinning ranks of the pros, not because they are necessarily of the same standard, theres just more room at the top than there ever was in localised and some national comps, but not on the world stage . The irony is this, in the fifties, there were a line of top amat waiting in line to go pro., eggleton , hurley,to name 2 , who would have graced any pro ranks at the lower levels, but even then, the difference in performance was noticable .At national levels in some countries , the move " up " would be easier for obvious reasons , and the majority of the so called " american " dancers, are not americans . The # 1 is from u.k. and could go down the list in all ranks . If they each were in their respective countries, the waiting list would be much longer, to achieve placings in any given division .The latin side moves more quickly, because other than donnie, the top couples dont hang around as long and that creates more movement . , and if you look at how the b/room has been dominated by 3 people over the last forty yrs ( irvine , 10 , eggleton , 8 and hilton 10 ) dont leave a helluva lot of room at the top !!!

[Joe]

To return from pro, to amat. has to be sanctioned , and it is not a rubber stamp
Actually, from all that I can see, it pretty much is a rubber stamp.

[Chris Stratton]

As far as difference in standard . I would disagree that 99% of amat. could make that transition,and the reason those that do make fairly early impacts is primarily due to the thinning ranks of the pros, not because they are necessarily of the same standard

I'm not concerned with 99% of the amateurs, but with those who are actually viable competitors in the amateur championship division - which is to say the sort of amateur position that might be traded to or from a professional one.

And the reality is that couples in this category tend to drop about six places or a round or so when they go pro - from the top of one final to the bottom from the other, from middle of final to middle of rising star final, etc. That seems to be true both within closed US competition, and also for couples from other countries in international competition.

Yes, there are some expectations which newly professional couples have to grow into. But there are also accuracies now demanded in both division which even dancers who had previously been viable professionals may need to work on in order to be viable amateur competitors today.